Help or guidance for my faux pas.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:54 pm

The story behind it doesn't matter, I felt I offended a young lady the other day on the phone.

The lady in question was a junior doctor I saw last Monday,who promised to phone me on Friday with some information, she didn't phone until Saturday.

She introduced herself and gave me the information, I said "Are you the girl I saw on Monday?" It was said genuinely, no lack of respect was intended for her gender or age, I immediatley regretted my choice of words.

At which she went all defensive,naturally, I thought I could feel her displeasure.

I want to apologise for calling the highly trained, dedicated and rather pleasant young Doctor "Girl"

I would normally have said "Lady", why I didn't this time I don't know.

Any helpful suggestions of wording for an apology when we we meet again gratefully recieved

theia · Post by **theia** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:53 pm

Bruv;1430328 wrote: The story behind it doesn't matter, I felt I offended a young lady the other day on the phone.

The lady in question was a junior doctor I saw last Monday,who promised to phone me on Friday with some information, she didn't phone until Saturday.

She introduced herself and gave me the information, I said "Are you the girl I saw on Monday?" It was said genuinely, no lack of respect was intended for her gender or age, I immediatley regretted my choice of words.

At which she went all defensive,naturally, I thought I could feel her displeasure.

I want to apologise for calling the highly trained, dedicated and rather pleasant young Doctor "Girl"

I would normally have said "Lady", why I didn't this time I don't know.

Any helpful suggestions of wording for an apology when we we meet again gratefully recieved

If the doctor did take offence and maybe it was just your perception that she did, use humour and a little bit of self deprecation when you next see her. Use the old "when you get to my age doctors and policemen seem so young and everyone below the age of 40 becomes a lad or a girl" sort of thing.

But are you sure that it isn't just you thinking she was offended? I would have thought that part of doctors' training would be to accept that people who are ill, anxious or concerned may not always stick to the letter of increasingly restricting political correctness.

Our ward consultant and our staff grade were told by a patient on a ward round that they were stick thin. Neither went into meltdown, just found it amusing.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:09 am

Getting rid of "lady" might be worth the trouble at the same time. The word you're searching for is "woman". Lady is just as patronising as Girl.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:59 am

I think I'd just let it go and treat her with "good morning Doctor, thanks for your call Saturday" or something. I don't remember being offended back in the day when an older gentleman would refer to me as a girl since from his perspective, I was. I'm sure she's heard much worse.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:44 am

I am thinking now it was the way I spoke more than anything, plus I think I said "Are you the girl that was supposed to phone yesterday?" to which she replied along the lines "Sorry but I was very busy with sick people" to which I might have taken umbrage to be fair, but I didn't.

I will go along with Theia, I am good at self deprecation.

Tyr (with the accent), I might agree if you had inserted Doctor rather than woman, I would not be asking the question if I had said Lady, it's use and me might have been wrong, I don't mind being un PC in my own way, as long as I remain respectful, in my own way, Lady, is giving respect.

I don't think I can 'let it go' Snooze, I feel she requires an apology, even if it was for the dismissive way I framed my question, ie 'The girl that ought to have phoned yesterday'

I will give it a lot of thought before the next appointment, and if I see her, I will have to say something along the lines.....

"Hello Doctor, thanks for your call on Saturday, hope we didn't fall out?" with a smile.

"I don't normally call Doctors girl or question their timing, do you forgive an old fool?" with downcast eyes, and a wry smile.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:37 am

Bruv;1430333 wrote: Tyr (with the accent), I might agree if you had inserted Doctor rather than woman, I would not be asking the question if I had said Lady, it's use and me might have been wrong, I don't mind being un PC in my own way, as long as I remain respectful, in my own way, Lady, is giving respect.
On the contrary, it's disrespectful.

Let me give a mirror to the issue, the word "gentleman". The whole point of "if you'd like to see the gentleman at the desk he'll..." is that the speaker knows full well that the oik sat at the desk is no gentleman, and "if you'd like to see the man at the desk he'll..." is far more accurate and meaningful. Indeed, were Lord Bath to spend an hour on the till at Woburn then the staff would, I suspect, invariably use "the man at", knowing that "the gentleman at" is so often facetious.

If you really think "lady" is respectful, I suggest you ask a few women and pay attention to the answers.

eta: Having posted, the next sentence in the book I'm reading (Cultural Amnesia p.371) is "Anyone who let slip a loose phrase lived to rue it if Kraus caught him. As the self-appointed scourge of self-revealing speech, he was a linguistic philosopher before the fact, a blogger before the Web." - you may consider me chastised for "the same unfaltering tone of the self-elected elect: the oracle who can see everywhere except into his own being, and sees through everyone because he has no insight into himself. Kraus's self-assurance was a pose that he believed was real."

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:41 am

Bruv;1430333 wrote: I am thinking now it was the way I spoke more than anything, plus I think I said "Are you the girl that was supposed to phone yesterday?" to which she replied along the lines "Sorry but I was very busy with sick people" to which I might have taken umbrage to be fair, but I didn't.

I will go along with Theia, I am good at self deprecation.

Tyr (with the accent), I might agree if you had inserted Doctor rather than woman, I would not be asking the question if I had said Lady, it's use and me might have been wrong, I don't mind being un PC in my own way, as long as I remain respectful, in my own way, Lady, is giving respect.

I don't think I can 'let it go' Snooze, I feel she requires an apology, even if it was for the dismissive way I framed my question, ie 'The girl that ought to have phoned yesterday'

I will give it a lot of thought before the next appointment, and if I see her, I will have to say something along the lines.....

"Hello Doctor, thanks for your call on Saturday, hope we didn't fall out?" with a smile.

"I don't normally call Doctors girl or question their timing, do you forgive an old fool?" with downcast eyes, and a wry smile.

To which she'll give you a puzzled look and pretend she knows what you're talking about. Good chance she won't even remember your horrible faux pas.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:43 am

Týr;1430334 wrote: On the contrary, it's disrespectful.

Let me give a mirror to the issue, the word "gentleman". The whole point of "if you'd like to see the gentleman at the desk he'll..." is that the speaker knows full well that the oik sat at the desk is no gentleman, and "if you'd like to see the man at the desk he'll..." is far more accurate and meaningful. Indeed, were Lord Bath to spend an hour on the till at Woburn then the staff would, I suspect, invariably use "the man at", knowing that "the gentleman at" is so often facetious.

If you really think "lady" is respectful, I suggest you ask a few women and pay attention to the answers.

That's incredibly cynical. YOU might mean it facetiously but I don't believe most people would take "gentleman" or "lady" as an insult.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:01 am

SnoozeAgain;1430336 wrote: That's incredibly cynical.Actually it's British English usage. Every Member of Parliament referring to another member of a different party when speaking in the House is obliged by tradition to refer to him or her as "the honourable gentleman" or "the honourable lady", which may well be where the ribald disregard stems from.

The use applied to a member of the same party is even funnier - "my honourable friend".

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:27 am

I wouldn't bother wasting your time on her Bruv frankly.

Hospitals are awash with Insensitive patients, visitors, staff etc In Fact, try your local A and E on a saturday night.

We also have many oversea's Doctors and nurses In the NHS who patients struggle to understand. My consultant Is Italian and I just about get the gist of what hes saying and he looks about 12 years old.

From what you've said, sounds to me that the only one with the problem Is her. To Immediately go on the defensive like that tells me that you should not waste your time on her.

Think of It this way.... You have had cancer and just come out of hospital. She should not be speaking to a cancer patient like that. Bang out of order. If It were me, I'd complain not apologise.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:41 am

Tyr (with an accent) reminds me of the famous two Ronnies sketch of answering the question before the last

You are answering the question you think I should be asking. I am sure they could do that justice, not as good as you obviously.

I am happy using Lady whatever you say, it is how I feel using the term.

I am second guessing why the Doctor's voice appeared different after my question 'Are you the girl that should have phoned yesterday?'

I may be wrong, but if I am I still think it worth apologising just in case.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:48 am

Why should you or anyone else Instead of worrying about their Illness or condition Instead worry about what some defensive Idiot Is thinking?

You have had the trauma of cancer and surgery so I am assuming the phone call was In relation to that. Regardless, she was phoning a PATIENT... ie a sick person.

To snap and say " Sorry but I was busy with sick people " Is Insulting given what you have just been through.

Very Insulting.

I'd expect an apology from her !!!

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:16 am

Bruv;1430339 wrote: I may be wrong, but if I am I still think it worth apologising just in case.
Bah. I bet if you use "I don't normally call Doctors girl or question their timing, do you forgive an old fool?" with downcast eyes and a wry smile, she'll think you're building up to asking her out for the evening.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:27 am

If you didn't mean offense, don't feel guilty. You're not responsible for her feelings and you might not have even read her response correctly. She might have just had a stressful day and sounded curt.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:29 am

This incident probably bothers YOU more that it bothers HER. Just learn from it, as you have, and when a similar situation presents itself, you will know how to respond.

Reminds me of a song:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:48 am

If she had spoken to my husband like that, my complaint would be the last of her worries.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:49 am

I would just be sure to make a point to use "Doctor" next time you speak with her.

That is the advice from my sister-in-law, the doctor.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:57 am

Bruv

your the patient - you don't owe any one a apology.

Are you sure this "lady" who called was the Doctor or Doctor's Assistant?

could be why "She" sounded different. possible?

Bruv - the medical society hear everything - the patient does not need to use phone etiquette or proper grammar.

"She" won't even recall the conversation - your alright

I have a very low voice - at times when I answer the phone one will say MR. - -

now that's insulting..!:yh_rotfl

I usually laugh - I don't buy what they're selling - I laugh at the MR..!

Patsy

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:04 am

The odds are, if she did take offence, she'll have forgotten about it two minutes after she put the phone down. She's also probably used to being called dear, love, hen, duck lassie whatever by people old enough to be her parent and didn't think anything of it. If it was me I would just forget it and try to remember not to do it again. Your interpretation of her reaction might be more due to the realisation you may have given offence.

posted by tyr

Getting rid of "lady" might be worth the trouble at the same time. The word you're searching for is "woman". Lady is just as patronising as Girl.

Must be an american usage thing. Neither are patronising, I would tend to use girl if it was indeed a young girl, lady if it's someone older or doctor if I knew that was in fact who I'd been speaking to. Woman is imo the one that is potentially patronising. We refer, for example, to cleaning ladies rather than cleaning women for the simple reason it recognises their status as (typically) older women probably with families and as such worthy of respect who happen to be doing a low status manual job.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:11 am

gmc;1430350 wrote: The odds are, if she did take offence, she'll have forgotten about it two minutes after she put the phone down. She's also probably used to being called dear, love, hen, duck lassie whatever by people old enough to be her parent and didn't think anything of it. If it was me I would just forget it and try to remember not to do it again. Your interpretation of her reaction might be more due to the realisation you may have given offence.

posted by tyr

Must be an american usage thing. Neither are patronising, I would tend to use girl if it was indeed a young girl, lady if it's someone older or doctor if I knew that was in fact who I'd been speaking to. Woman is imo the one that is potentially patronising. We refer, for example, to cleaning ladies rather than cleaning women for the simple reason it recognises their status as (typically) older women probably with families and as such worthy of respect who happen to be doing a low status manual job.

Since Tyr's the one who wrote it and he's not American, it's not an American usage thing.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:12 am

If I am being served In a shop and the assistant by passes someone, I always say ' This young lady was In front of me ' If she's young. If It's an older woman I say ' This Lady was In front of me ' and If It's a young male, I'll say ' this young man was before me'.

Older male I will say ' This gentleman was before me '..... always served me well.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:13 am

gmc;1430350 wrote: We refer, for example, to cleaning ladies rather than cleaning women for the simple reason it recognises their status as (typically) older women probably with families and as such worthy of respect who happen to be doing a low status manual job.

The correct term is Cleaner. To call attention to their sex is shockingly intrusive in these enlightened times. There are authors but no authoresses, so there are cleaners but no cleaning ladies. And there are nurses but no male nurses.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:14 am

How about "geezer" instead of gentleman?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:17 am

Týr;1430353 wrote: The correct term is Cleaner. To call attention to their sex is shockingly intrusive in these enlightened times. There are authors but no authoresses, so there are cleaners but no cleaning ladies. And there are nurses but no male nurses. I have to agree with this.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:18 am

SnoozeAgain;1430354 wrote: How about "geezer" instead of gentleman? Or ' Bloke '

Urban Dictionary: bloke

Always remember coming home one day aged about 14 yrs old and telling my Dad I'd met some bloke on the bus for him to ask me what a ' bloke ' was.... Then he said ' Oh you mean a chap '? It was around the same time he asked me what a ' gig ' was.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:28 am

Bruv should just say "Yo bitch".

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:46 am

SnoozeAgain;1430358 wrote: Bruv should just say "Yo bitch".
Yeah... ' Yo Bitch listen up '

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:57 am

SnoozeAgain;1430351 wrote: Since Tyr's the one who wrote it and he's not American, it's not an American usage thing.

oops sorry, no offence intended.

The correct term is Cleaner. To call attention to their sex is shockingly intrusive in these enlightened times. There are authors but no authoresses, so there are cleaners but no cleaning ladies. And there are nurses but no male nurses.

You might talk about cleaners I will concede but I'm sorry there are actors and actresses the terms are gender specific, author and authoresses the terms are gender specific and the usage correct. annoys me intensely when they talk about actors when they mean actresses. Can't wait till they try and bring bring in toilets without specifying gender. The use of woman or lady used to specify class status probably a good thing that's fallen away. There are male and female nurses pretending otherwise doesn't make it not so and the gender does matter to the patients especially elderly ones.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:02 am

gmc;1430364 wrote: You might talk about cleaners I will concede but I'm sorry there are actors and actresses the terms are gender specific, author and authoresses the terms are gender specific and the usage correct. annoys me intensely when they talk about actors when they mean actresses.

There has been no more terrifying word in the English Language since 1945 than Jewess.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:15 am

gmc;1430364 wrote: oops sorry, no offence intended.

You might talk about cleaners I will concede but I'm sorry there are actors and actresses the terms are gender specific, author and authoresses the terms are gender specific and the usage correct. annoys me intensely when they talk about actors when they mean actresses. Can't wait till they try and bring bring in toilets without specifying gender. The use of woman or lady used to specify class status probably a good thing that's fallen away. There are male and female nurses pretending otherwise doesn't make it not so and the gender does matter to the patients especially elderly ones.

Where ? I've never seen that.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:18 am

You better get started cleaning up the Spanish language, they actually have masculine and feminine words, muchacho.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:30 am

SnoozeAgain;1430370 wrote: You better get started cleaning up the Spanish language, they actually have masculine and feminine words, muchacho.

Grammatical gender might be a useful introduction to the difference between linguistic gender and sex. I quite like the idea that a stallion is feminine in Irish, for example.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:34 am

How is a feminine word for stallion helpful at all?

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:40 am

SnoozeAgain;1430375 wrote: How is a feminine word for stallion helpful at all?

The reason is presumably buried in the mists of Irish linguistic history, a topic on which I am unfit to speak. It is, none the less, a present fact.

Back when English conjugated by masculine, feminine and neuter, the word wife was neutral. Maybe the old English had a sense of humor. We do still use masculine, feminine and neuter pronouns - his, hers, its - we just dropped them (except in dialect) from nouns.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:46 am

Týr;1430377 wrote: The reason is presumably buried in the mists of Irish linguistic history, a topic on which I am unfit to speak. It is, none the less, a present fact.

Back when English conjugated by masculine, feminine and neuter, the word wife was neutral. Maybe the old English had a sense of humor. We do still use masculine, feminine and neuter pronouns - his, hers, its - we just dropped them (except in dialect) from nouns.
And replaced them all with ' Innit '

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:53 am

That Tyr character reminds me of somebody I remember who was posting on FG (aha, yet another site name to toy with - FG !) some while ago under a different site name ! It's just the contents of the post, the pedantic phraseology, the 'I'm more clever than you plebs !' tone, and the touch of sarcasm that indicate to me a certain familiarity, oh and the verbal stirring to induce retorts and arguments. Here's me thinking the old bugger had hung up his Linux and retired !!!! Oh, and so sorry but I just have to include a 'smiley' espcially for Tyr ! :rolleyes:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:57 am

G#Gill;1430381 wrote: That Tyr character reminds me of somebody I remember who was posting on FG (aha, yet another site name to toy with - FG !) some while ago under a different site name ! It's just the contents of the post, the pedantic phraseology, the 'I'm more clever than you plebs !' tone, and the touch of sarcasm that indicate to me a certain familiarity, oh and the verbal stirring to induce retorts and arguments. Here's me thinking the old bugger had hung up his Linux and retired !!!! Oh, and so sorry but I just have to include a 'smiley' espcially for Tyr ! :rolleyes:

Well hello stranger !!!!

Give me a phone call later in the week would you Mrs ? xxx

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:00 am

Týr;1430365 wrote: There has been no more terrifying word in the English Language since 1945 than Jewess.

How about new-labour -? or is that merely depressing.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:03 am

oscar;1430384 wrote: Well hello stranger !!!!

Give me a phone call later in the week would you Mrs ? xxx

Mmmm, now what's the magic word ? :wah::yh_tong2

I forgot to say 'Hello' back ............. tut :wah:

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:10 am

Tyr disapproves of gender specific honorifics, you are no longer allowed to type "Mrs" on here.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:17 am

SnoozeAgain;1430389 wrote: Tyr disapproves of gender specific honorifics, you are no longer allowed to type "Mrs" on here.

Tyr can disapprove all he chuffin' well likes, as he's only a Mr. it is obvious that there is a definite inferiority complex in that quarter ! Don't you think ?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:19 am

G#Gill;1430387 wrote: Mmmm, now what's the magic word ? :wah::yh_tong2

I forgot to say 'Hello' back ............. tut :wah:

' Is It ' Discombobulation ' ?

Please :p:p:p

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:20 am

he he he he he he ....... thank you !

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:50 am

G#Gill;1430392 wrote: he he he he he he ....... thank you ! You got my number Mrs... I'll look forward to It... we can talk about people.

Thank You :p:p:p

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:01 pm

That phone call was only about 30 seconds, look how much chat it caused.

She was a Lass from Sunderland and I correctly asked if she was.

It might have been better to call her Hen or Lassy, but the way I said girl and questioned her timing was wrong, how she reacted to that is no consequence, she was entitled to feel agrieved.

Even if I only think I upset her, I feel she is due an apology................no big thing.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:02 pm

But did you pronounce it "gel" with a hard G?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:42 pm

SnoozeAgain;1430404 wrote: But did you pronounce it "gel" with a hard G?
No.....I am from southern England born and brought up in London, more like curl with a G.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:49 pm

I think you are letting her off far too lightly. I'd go to her office and punch her In the face.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:35 pm

oscar;1430410 wrote: I think you are letting her off far too lightly. I'd go to her office and punch her In the face.

Then THAT is what I shall do............... deck her with a right hander first thing tomorrow morning.

(Should I time it before or after morning clinic)

I shall be scrutinising all your advice closely in future.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:46 pm

Better yet, take Oscar with you so she can deck her.