How about this government shutdown?

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:42 pm

Anyone here affected?

I keep thinking that this will be the time that americans get fed up and vote in a whole new house and senate.

Realistically that won't happen. Everyone hates all of them except their own.

We are a bunch of idiots who have gotten what we deserve.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:41 am

We got a lot of email telling us that today's the day. We go in to work as we normally do but we should brace ourselves for the possibility of another furlough. I lost about $5,000 in wages last fiscal year. It could have been worse, they cut the furlough days by half.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:52 am

Maybe they will stay shut down and we can start another one.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:04 am

YZGI;1436900 wrote: Maybe they will stay shut down and we can start another one.

Americans are nowhere near an agreement of what "another one" would be. The right wing will never compromise, will just force themselves on others. That's what is behind the shutdown. A few controlling maniacs led by a man (Boner) who appears to disagree but doesn't have the courage to upset the maniacs.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:12 pm

I am puzzled by w hy your national parks are shut down. Are you not allowed to roam freely any time you like or something?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:53 pm

gmc;1436918 wrote: I am puzzled by w hy your national parks are shut down. Are you not allowed to roam freely any time you like or something?

They are shut down because the National Park Rangers & anyone else, have been furloughed. Anyone who wants to freely roam them I guess can do so by not entering through regular park entrances. The hiker & the grizzly, but if the hiker gets in trouble, no one to help.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:00 pm

Too bad we can't furlough Congress.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:07 pm

LarsMac;1436925 wrote: Too bad we can't furlough Congress.

I realize most may be incompetent. Why should we be paying for their huge staffs to read the bills, to do the work they, the congress, should be competent enough to do on their own. BUT---

There are right wing maniacs in Congress, & we can't lump them all into that category. However, Congress has lived high off the "fatta the land" for too long. Those jerks even get free haircuts. One term, or less, gives them health care & pension For Life. I do think the worst thing is that they don't do any actual work--no reading, no writing of their own.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:34 pm

gmc;1436918 wrote: I am puzzled by w hy your national parks are shut down. Are you not allowed to roam freely any time you like or something?
Because the staff have been sent home without pay...

Just think... America Is shut... we could sneak In and do stuff.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:43 pm

YZGI;1436900 wrote: Maybe they will stay shut down and we can start another one.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:47 pm

Hafta agree with Tude, here, The idea of what we might end up with if we tried to start from scratch scares me a helluva lot more than what we have now.

We can fix this.

I dunno how, yet, but I I bet we can.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:04 pm

oscar;1436929 wrote: Because the staff have been sent home without pay...

Just think... America Is shut... we could sneak In and do stuff.

Please do! I'll even let you stay at my house!

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:20 pm

I've been trying to figure out when this all started... this crash and burn mentality the politicians seem to have.

I think it was back when the clinton crap started.

I'm pretty sure that that is when journalists forgot what their purpose was also.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:05 pm

oscar;1436929 wrote: Because the staff have been sent home without pay...

Just think... America Is shut... we could sneak In and do stuff.

AnneBoleyn;1436932 wrote: Please do! I'll even let you stay at my house!

Absotively!! Come over. We'll have a party. I know where the key to the liquor cabinet is.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:12 pm

So, basically, one party lost an election so they decide to take the country hostage until the elected president agrees to do everything that the losing candidate wanted to do.

They have to fix it soon because the next scheduled hostage taking situation comes up in a couple of weeks when they have said that they have more demands before they will agree to pay for what they spent last year.

Then, later, there is a scheduled hostage taking situation when it is time to decide on a budget.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:03 pm

I had no idea your government had that much control over you guys.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:16 pm

They have no more control over us than we have over them.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:23 pm

I can't see that happening here ... sending people home is one thing . but without pay?.......why aren't there riots in the streets, where are the protests?? These people have mortages and living expenses.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:57 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1436951 wrote: I can't see that happening here ... sending people home is one thing . but without pay?.......why aren't there riots in the streets, where are the protests?? These people have mortages and living expenses.

Eh, most of 'em have saved up leave and such, and plan to take off this time of year, anyway.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:00 am

That's not what I was hearing on the radio today . They seemed pretty upset to me . (at least the ones they interviewed)

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:08 am

You can't take leave during furlough since leave is paid time off. You can take leave *with* the furlough which many people I know did last fiscal year but this one happened suddenly without any warning. So far it hasn't hit us yet, thankfully.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:16 am

How long before it hits the essential services? you know the garboes etc?

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:10 am

What's disgusting to me at the moment is that depending on which news channel you have on you are watching different news stories. Used to be you flipped between the networks in case you missed a fact on one that was on the other. Now they are all opinions and little bits of skewed facts are littered in as 'proof'.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:13 am

This breaks it down pretty well. Garbage collection is run by the city (I think it's probably contracted out by them anyway, but I could be wrong) but we still pay (a lot) for the service so I can't see it being affected.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:14 am

flopstock;1436986 wrote: What's disgusting to me at the moment is that depending on which news channel you have on you are watching different news stories. Used to be you flipped between the networks in case you missed a fact on one that was on the other. Now they are all opinions and little bits of skewed facts are littered in as 'proof'.

That's bugged me for years. There will never be another Walter Cronkite.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:36 am

And we keep voting these folks back in..

Congress still gets paid -- it's in the Constitution - CNN.com

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:48 am

I was thinking what would the British do In such a situation because surely, this Is unprecedented ?

British normally In such situations form queue's and quietly sigh and tut but I am sure If this happened here, London would be on fire. I still can't get my head round this.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:54 am

What I can't get my head around is the amazing amount of clout the tea party has acquired. These people are dangerous extremists in my opinion, how has the entire country been taken hostage by them?

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:52 pm

Maybe enough "moderate" Republicans will come forward that sanity can be restored, at least for a couple of weeks.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:03 am

So they ran this clip on how the shutdown was affecting folks and they interviewed folks on head start and WIC programs. Funny thing was this was on CNN or MSnbc and NOT FOXNEWS.... I've been watching them all to try and piece together some truth.

This lady was saying how if this keeps up she's going to be forced to quit school and get a job, just to feed her baby!

Excuse me? :-2

That's what I had to do over 30 years ago when I had my first one.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:09 am

Here is a fun one to watch..

CNN keeps count: Congress gets paid, but who’s keeping their paycheck? – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:29 am

SnoozeAgain;1436988 wrote: That's bugged me for years. There will never be another Walter Cronkite.

From your lips to Gawd's ears.:guitarist

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:39 am

Wandrin;1437070 wrote: Maybe enough "moderate" Republicans will come forward that sanity can be restored, at least for a couple of weeks.

Any what ya would call "moderate Democrats" around?

Never mind.

Real problem for Republicans, Tea Party folk is the burning need to take action.

What we should be doi is nothing. Just sit back and watch the train wreck.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:18 pm

Live: Congress locked down due to shooter situation - CNN.com

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:20 pm

just saw that, a female? and a coppers' among the injured?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:54 pm

tude dog;1437109 wrote: Any what ya would call "moderate Democrats" around?

Never mind.

Real problem for Republicans, Tea Party folk is the burning need to take action.

What we should be doi is nothing. Just sit back and watch the train wreck.

Take Action. Only it's the wrong action, the reactionary action. Yes, please, do sit back & do nothing. You're just clogging up everything anyway.

And please, now that I have you 'on the line', explain in detail Exactly what you define as "Feral Population". Be definitive regarding who & what you actually mean. I know you fell in love with this phrase of yours, you've used it in many places already, it's kind of like your 'moniker', something you seem real proud of. So, defend it by giving it a clear definition. I know you love to stand by your words.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:53 pm

Hi folks.

Just popped back in to see how Americans were reacting to this shutdown, prompted by a Mark Mardell article on the BBC website saying that down Texas way most people seemed to support the Republican Right/Tea Party/Wackos.

It's also interesting because on this site mostly people hammer their politicians for compromising and deal making - aka "Selling out..." and now we have a bunch who are absolutely refusing to compromise, so in consequence democratic government - which by its very nature is a compromise - cannot work.

So what comes next? The Tea Party won't back down and its supporters believe that they are America...Can Obama back down? Will he?

It's a few years off yet, but this road ends in civil war. It's hard to believe that America will really walk into that hell but when you have the far right involved anything is possible, especially because just like any other bunch of religious extremists they believe they are doing God's will...

I'd normally say that I'd expect the moderate Republicans to act against the extreme tendency, but I gather that even moderates are scared not to oppose Obamacare because it's socialist and un-American. So it would seem America has a completely hamstrung government. Can Obama go to the county and call an election? That's the only way out I can see at the moment. But I've a feeling you guys have fixed terms and no provision for a snap election...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:46 pm

There is no government shutdown. That is only the histrionics of politicians trying to stir up emotional reactions so that people won't think.

Looks like it's working.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:36 am

Clodhopper;1437266 wrote: Hi folks.

Just popped back in to see how Americans were reacting to this shutdown, prompted by a Mark Mardell article on the BBC website saying that down Texas way most people seemed to support the Republican Right/Tea Party/Wackos.

It's also interesting because on this site mostly people hammer their politicians for compromising and deal making - aka "Selling out..." and now we have a bunch who are absolutely refusing to compromise, so in consequence democratic government - which by its very nature is a compromise - cannot work.

So what comes next? The Tea Party won't back down and its supporters believe that they are America...Can Obama back down? Will he?

It's a few years off yet, but this road ends in civil war. It's hard to believe that America will really walk into that hell but when you have the far right involved anything is possible, especially because just like any other bunch of religious extremists they believe they are doing God's will...

I'd normally say that I'd expect the moderate Republicans to act against the extreme tendency, but I gather that even moderates are scared not to oppose Obamacare because it's socialist and un-American. So it would seem America has a completely hamstrung government. Can Obama go to the county and call an election? That's the only way out I can see at the moment. But I've a feeling you guys have fixed terms and no provision for a snap election...

It's an age old argument right against left the establishment against the people. Can't have the people thinking they are entitled to a fair share of the wealth created by society or that they should challenge the right of the wealthy and powerful to control things. What happens is the people become convinced they should accept injustice and are not entitled to complain then they get really pissed off and take action. America is a democracy and that makes all the difference imo in the past such a gulf between rich and poor would have let to open warfare don;t think it will now. But if the republicans find themselves voted out of office wholesale at the next election the likes of the tea party will no doubt claim left wing conspiracy meanwhile they are busy changing voting rules to curb that very possibility.

In the twenties and thirties it was right fascists against left wing socialism (which is not the same as communism) it's the same age old argument just different language.

If the people vote for something that some see as socialism who gets to win the argument the people or those who believe if you are poor you're on your own it's just tough ****.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:41 pm

Okay I'm officially amused .... when this first happened I thought a whole lot of park rangers being out of work was bad enough but then I was listening to a gentleman talk on the radio.................He was laid off on the same day . He was an aviation safety inspector..................for gods sake don't any of you fly at the moment. You're government laid everyone looking after you off.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:48 am

"So, basically, one party lost an election so they decide to take the country hostage until the elected president agrees to do everything that the losing candidate wanted to do. "

I believe that is what is happening too. Wanderin.

Since I in-process new-hires at work, this will have an effect on my job duties:

"The Department of Homeland Security shut down the E-Verify system, which enables employers to check whether the people they hire are eligible to work in the United States. A number of states require employers to use E-Verify for all new employees. For instance, Georgia requires all companies with more than 10 employees to use the system."

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:40 am

This cracks me up! So we are now paying folks to not work? And when the doors of government open up again we'll be paying overtime in order to catch up?

When is election day again?

House Passes Bill To Give Back Pay To Federal Workers Furloughed In Government Shutdown

TÃ½r · Post by **TÃ½r** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:00 am

Here's today's BBC comment. It looks to me that the debt ceiling deadline's going to be passed by the time a fix is agreed. The Republicans have boxed themselves into a corner.Mr Messer hesitates before saying "it is not about being scared, but in a representative constitutional democracy you [are] accountable to what your voters believe".

"And where I'm from, Obamacare is very unpopular," he said.

My sense is the Republican hard line is softening a little, but they need something that they can at least proclaim as a partial victory. It is not clear if the President will allow them that.

At the moment there is a slight air of panic, everybody looking for an exit, still finding that all the doors are locked.

BBC News - Capitol Hill: 'Looking for an exit'

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:36 am

Here's what's wrong with this article.. IMO we need to go back to expecting folks rather than government to be giving to causes.

Head Start Will Stay Open in Shutdown, Thanks to Hedge-Fund Money - Eleanor Barkhorn - The Atlantic

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:47 pm

flopstock;1437455 wrote: Here's what's wrong with this article.. IMO we need to go back to expecting folks rather than government to be giving to causes.

Head Start Will Stay Open in Shutdown, Thanks to Hedge-Fund Money - Eleanor Barkhorn - The Atlantic

That would work for some things, but not for others. Privately funded food inspectors would be less effective. I'm sure that Exxon would fund part of the EPA, as long as they could influence the rules. One of the candidates in the last election wanted to sell the National Parks to Disney (or the highest bidder).

TÃ½r · Post by **TÃ½r** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:00 pm

May I put a simple focused question, since it seems to be one of the Tea Party assumptions and I don't know the answer to it? Their intention over the next couple of weeks seems to be to hold firm and block any increase in the national debt cap, while retaining the current budget block so as to have a wider negotiating tool in the run-up to Christmas.

If the national debt cap stays fixed then the US Federal expenditure, day by day and week by week, is limited to what can be brought in through taxation and whatever other sources of income the Federal government might have. If as much as can be spent is actually spent then the whole thing is by definition a balanced budget, neither borrowing more nor saving anything. The debt won't reduce and it won't increase.

What, in simple terms, is wrong with balancing the books that way? As the Tea Party says, private individuals are pretty well committed to that way of life once they've pushed out the credit boat as far as it will stretch.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Wandrin;1437465 wrote: That would work for some things, but not for others. Privately funded food inspectors would be less effective. I'm sure that Exxon would fund part of the EPA, as long as they could influence the rules. One of the candidates in the last election wanted to sell the National Parks to Disney (or the highest bidder).

It will be interesting to see how long we go without major issues during this shutdown. I read an article yesterday on entire agencies that are completely furloughed right now because none of the positions are deemed essential. The question was raised as to why do we have them if they are not in any way essential to the running of government?

And these entire agencies will be back paid once we are back up and running... These non-essential agency employees all will have had an additional vacation this year on the backs of the tax payers.

That reminds me.. the furloughed that sign up for unemployment, do the government agencies pay into the unemployment fund also, like the private sector does?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:12 pm

Republicans are getting it all wrong. We should demand Obama and his party stop being so arrogant. Give them what they wish for.

The government should not be closed; the debt ceiling will be raised. Republicans should, however, take to heart the last words of H.L. Menckenâ€™s summation of Theodore Roosevelt: â€œWell, one does what one can.â€ Republicans can give Democrats a ruinous opportunity to insist upon unpopular things. House Republicans can attach to the continuing resolution that funds the government, and then to the increase in the debt ceiling, two provisions: Preservation of the ACA requirement â€” lawlessly disregarded by the administration â€” that members of Congress and their staffs must experience the full enjoyment of the ACA without special, ameliorating subsidies. And a one-year delay of the ACAâ€™s individual mandate.

By vetoing legislation because of these provisions, and by having his vetoes sustained by congressional Democrats, Obama will underscore Democratsâ€™ devotion: Devotion to self-dealing by the political class, and to the principle that only powerful interests (businesses), not mere citizens, can delay the privilege of complying with the ACA.

George Will

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:30 pm

TÃ½r;1437467 wrote: May I put a simple focused question, since it seems to be one of the Tea Party assumptions and I don't know the answer to it? Their intention over the next couple of weeks seems to be to hold firm and block any increase in the national debt cap, while retaining the current budget block so as to have a wider negotiating tool in the run-up to Christmas.

If the national debt cap stays fixed then the US Federal expenditure, day by day and week by week, is limited to what can be brought in through taxation and whatever other sources of income the Federal government might have. If as much as can be spent is actually spent then the whole thing is by definition a balanced budget, neither borrowing more nor saving anything. The debt won't reduce and it won't increase.

What, in simple terms, is wrong with balancing the books that way? As the Tea Party says, private individuals are pretty well committed to that way of life once they've pushed out the credit boat as far a it will stretch.

The problem is that the debt ceiling increase is to pay for what Congress has already spent this past year, based on the budget that both parties agreed upon (reluctantly) after much fighting and artificial crisis a year ago.

TÃ½r · Post by **TÃ½r** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:42 pm

Wandrin;1437491 wrote: The problem is that the debt ceiling increase is to pay for what Congress has already spent this past year, based on the budget that both parties agreed upon (reluctantly) after much fighting and artificial crisis a year ago.

There's a huge buffer of cash that can be held back on practically no notice whatever. Shut down some insignificant portion of the obscenely oversized US military and use the saved money to fund the committed programs you speak of. Just stopping the Air Force from flying planes for a month or two saves money at the pump. Ground the submarine fleet. Put the aircraft carriers into harbor. Sell a few bases to land speculators for redevelopment. Bring your unwanted warriors home to roost.