What about us, Mods?......

[Arena]

As (probably) the biggest denomination on the planet, shouldn't we have a seperate posting forum?

[Snooz]

Is Atheism considered a religion?

[Snowfire]

SnoozeAgain;1439069 wrote: Is Atheism considered a religion?


God I hope not

[LarsMac]

If they are right, there's nothing to talk about.

[YZGI]

That's one thing I never figured out. Why do atheists need to preach atheism? They seem to feel the need to proclaim their atheism from the highest mountain tops. If there is nothing and they believe in nothing as Lars said. There is nothing to talk about.

If someone doesn't believe in ghosts, I never hear of them constantly proclaiming their un-belief in ghosts. Same with aliens or UFO's. They tend to allow anyone else who does believe to go their own way without feeling the need to shout from the mountain tops about their disbelief.

[Snowfire]

LarsMac;1439082 wrote: If they are right, there's nothing to talk about.


But as there are many that would say that atheists are not right, there is presumably much to talk about. I'm not particularly vocal about my atheism but would counter Wiseys statement by saying that our lives are very much influenced and structured by religion and its rules. So we are entitled to put in our 6 pennorth when it affects us in some way

[YZGI]

Snowfire;1439087 wrote: But as there are many that would say that atheists are not right, there is presumably much to talk about. I'm not particularly vocal about my atheism but would counter Wiseys statement by saying that our lives are very much influenced and structured by religion and its rules. So we are entitled to put in our 6 pennorth when it affects us in some way


I understand that. By the way I wouldn't have put you into the "shouting from the mountain top" group. As for religion, I don't go for that much nor their views or beliefs about any higher being.

[Bruv]

Arena;1439067 wrote: As (probably) the biggest denomination on the planet, shouldn't we have a seperate posting forum?




How did you manage to post this post ?..................General Religious Discussions covers it all....... no ?

[tude dog]

That works for me.



On this site there was a thread proclaiming There Is No God..

It never occurred to that poster the assertion there is no god is just as faith based as someone who believes in god(s), or whatever.

After 133 posts did we see any evidence to support there is no god? No, it was the same ridicule to those who do.

Nothing positive to say about atheism, cause there is nothing there.

[Ahso!]

YZGI;1439085 wrote: That's one thing I never figured out. Why do atheists need to preach atheism? They seem to feel the need to proclaim their atheism from the highest mountain tops. If there is nothing and they believe in nothing as Lars said. There is nothing to talk about.

If someone doesn't believe in ghosts, I never hear of them constantly proclaiming their un-belief in ghosts. Same with aliens or UFO's. They tend to allow anyone else who does believe to go their own way without feeling the need to shout from the mountain tops about their disbelief.Who do you know that does that?

[YZGI]

Ahso!;1439098 wrote: Who do you know that does that?


See, I knew you has a sense of humor.

[Lady J]

Everyone has something to say be it about something or nothing it all depends on who looks at it and what they believe or don't believe.

[fuzzywuzzy]

YZGI;1439085 wrote: That's one thing I never figured out. Why do atheists need to preach atheism? They seem to feel the need to proclaim their atheism from the highest mountain tops. If there is nothing and they believe in nothing as Lars said. There is nothing to talk about.

If someone doesn't believe in ghosts, I never hear of them constantly proclaiming their un-belief in ghosts. Same with aliens or UFO's. They tend to allow anyone else who does believe to go their own way without feeling the need to shout from the mountain tops about their disbelief.


I'm an atheist and I agree totally with that . I think the trouble is when laws are enacted which threaten the rights of some citizens. Atheists being one of them. So I do believe that there should be an outlet for those who believe themselves to be discriminated against in this way .

[Arena]

An atheist is just someone who can live without one or other of the forms of mumbo-jumbo concocted in the middle east by superstitious tribes (and the other far east ones)

We do not persecute ,we do not cause wars ,we do believe in peaceful co-existence.

“Being a humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”

[FG-administator]

You have your new forum: Godlessness

I've given you moderator rights there, they only extend to that forum area but you can keep it weeded.

I'm particularly baffled that you think Atheism is even possibly "the biggest denomination on the planet". There are entire countries where religious belief is the cultural norm - South America, the Indian subcontinent, the entire Middle East, Moscow.

Anyway, see where it takes you. The forum area, not Atheism, I wasn't having a dig.

[tude dog]

Arena;1439115 wrote: An atheist is just someone who can live without one or other of the forms of mumbo-jumbo concocted in the middle east by superstitious tribes (and the other far east ones)


WOW

Do you have a link to, or another way us tribesmen can find the source of that wisdom? I mean really, maybe something like "Atheistism for Dummy's"?

Arena;1439115 wrote: We do not persecute ,we do not cause wars ,we do believe in peaceful co-existence.]/quote]








When you say things like live without one or other of the forms of mumbo-jumbo concocted in the middle east by superstitious tribes (and the other far east ones)


I really don't think that is a real nice way to start a conversation. In fact I would call that a real turn off.

Arena;1439115 wrote: “Being a humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”


Well ain't that just jolly.

[Týr]

Be reasonable - Stalin was demonstrably religious. Unlike, for example, Lenin.

That monotheism is an invention of tribes from the Middle East is clear enough - where else do you think it evolved?

I take it you disapprove in some way of both Stalin and Mao despite the fact that each took a significant country from utter wrecked oblivion and brought it through harrowing times to the launchpad for greatness.

[Oscar Namechange]

I really don't mind what people believe In but I feel that respecting the beliefs of others Is the pathway to peace not Athiests.

Atheistism Is capable of being as radical as some religions ie Imposing your belief onto others.

I never understand why those who do not believe have to spend so much time looking at those who do.

What does It matter If anyone gets comfort from praying?

[tude dog]

Týr;1439182 wrote: Be reasonable - Stalin was demonstrably religious.


Please, what religion was that? Needs to know.

Týr;1439182 wrote: Unlike, for example, Lenin.


Gee, always thought they were playing by the same book.

Týr;1439182 wrote: That monotheism is an invention of tribes from the Middle East is clear enough - where else do you think it evolved?


No issue there.

Týr;1439182 wrote: I take it you disapprove in some way of both Stalin and Mao




Týr;1439182 wrote: despite the fact that each took a significant country from utter wrecked oblivion and brought it through harrowing times to the launchpad for greatness.


As long as ya belong to the same Klan , works for me.

[LarsMac]

oscar;1439184 wrote: I really don't mind what people believe In but I feel that respecting the beliefs of others Is the pathway to peace not Athiests.

Atheistism Is capable of being as radical as some religions ie Imposing your belief onto others.

I never understand why those who do not believe have to spend so much time looking at those who do.

What does It matter If anyone gets comfort from praying?


Oh, I understand perfectly their motivation, I think.

The constant proselytizing and drum banging of the evangelical Christians can be annoying.

We Christians cannot simply sit back and be Christian, because Paul says Jesus told us all to go out as tell the world.

In fact a church I attended back east stressed to all the members that if they failed to bring at least one new person to church each week, they were failing the church.

I failed weekly, I must confess. I don't think I ever brought anyone into the fold that way. I was too busy working on being a good human.

But the recent behavior by the "New Atheism" is likely a backlash to all that kind of activity.

[Týr]

tude dog;1439187 wrote: Please, what religion was that? Needs to know.
Russian Orthodox, which is a branch of Christianity.

"When Stalin was sixteen, he received a scholarship to attend the Georgian Orthodox Tiflis Spiritual Seminary in Tbilisi", "a spiritual training institution, which operated from 1817 to 1919 in the Georgian Exarchate of the Russian Orthodox church" (wikipedia). He studied in the seminary for five years. It's a place that trains priests.

[LarsMac]

Týr;1439193 wrote: Russian Orthodox, which is a branch of Christianity.

"When Stalin was sixteen, he received a scholarship to attend the Georgian Orthodox Tiflis Spiritual Seminary in Tbilisi", "a spiritual training institution, which operated from 1817 to 1919 in the Georgian Exarchate of the Russian Orthodox church" (wikipedia). He studied in the seminary for five years. It's a place that trains priests.


He did study there, but by the time he joined up with Lenin and Trotsky, he had thoroughly abandoned the religion.

[Týr]

LarsMac;1439195 wrote: by the time he joined up with Lenin and Trotsky, he had thoroughly abandoned the religion.
I'd be grateful for a biographical reference to that effect, I find it hard to believe. My copy of Simon Sebag Montefiore's biography from 2004 makes no such suggestion that I remember.

[LarsMac]

Týr;1439198 wrote: I'd be grateful for a biographical reference to that effect, I find it hard to believe. My copy of Simon Sebag Montefiore's biography from 2004 makes no such suggestion that I remember.


Why would you find it hard to believe?

He was expelled from the seminary, and shortly afterwards found Marxism. He was instrumental in the Soviet policies against all religious organizations.

If Mr Montefiore failed to mention that Stalin became an atheist, does that make it not so?

According to Radzinsky Stalin intended to make Lenin the God of the Soviet universe.

[Týr]

LarsMac;1439203 wrote: Why would you find it hard to believe?

He was expelled from the seminary, and shortly afterwards found Marxism. He was instrumental in the Soviet policies against all religious organizations.

If Mr Montefiore failed to mention that Stalin became an atheist, does that make it not so?

According to Radzinsky Stalin intended to make Lenin the God of the Soviet universe.
Mr Montefiore does say that Stalin adopted atheism [I'd forgotten the sentence but it's there, I just checked], but he also includes some revealing passages. Here's one:Stalin frequently asked Vasilevsky to stay behind to discuss whether he was tempted by the priesthood: “Well, well, I didn’t want you to be,” laughed Stalin. “That’s clear. But Mikoyan and I wanted to be priests but were rejected. Until now, I can’t understand why!” Then: “Did your religious education do anything for you?”

“No knowledge is entirely wasted,” Vasilevsky replied cautiously: “Some of it turned out to be useful in military life.”

“The thing priests teach best is how to understand people,” mused Stalin, who once said his father was a priest. Perhaps he sometimes thought about his own paternity, for around this time, he told Vasilevsky: “One shouldn’t forget one’s parents.” On a later occasion he asked him: “When did you last see your parents?”

“I’ve forsaken them,” replied the General, worried that this was a test. “My father’s a priest, Comrade Stalin.”

“But is he a counter-revolutionary?”

“No, Comrade Stalin, he believes in God as a priest but he’s not a counter-revolutionary.”

“When the war’s quieter, I think you should take a plane, visit your parents and ask for their forgiveness.” Stalin did not forget Vasilevsky’s father: “Did you ever fly and see your parents and ask their blessing?” he asked later.

“Yes, Comrade Stalin,” replied Vasilevsky.

“It’ll be a long time before you pay off your debt to me.” Stalin then opened his safe and showed him some papers. They were money orders in Stalin’s own name that had been sent to Vasilevsky’s father throughout the war. The son, amazed and somewhat moved, thanked Stalin profusely.

[LarsMac]

Týr;1439204 wrote: Mr Montefiore does say that Stalin adopted atheism [I'd forgotten the sentence but it's there, I just checked], but he also includes some revealing passages. Here's one:Stalin frequently asked Vasilevsky to stay behind to discuss whether he was tempted by the priesthood: “Well, well, I didn’t want you to be,” laughed Stalin. “That’s clear. But Mikoyan and I wanted to be priests but were rejected. Until now, I can’t understand why!” Then: “Did your religious education do anything for you?”

“No knowledge is entirely wasted,” Vasilevsky replied cautiously: “Some of it turned out to be useful in military life.”

“The thing priests teach best is how to understand people,” mused Stalin, who once said his father was a priest. Perhaps he sometimes thought about his own paternity, for around this time, he told Vasilevsky: “One shouldn’t forget one’s parents.” On a later occasion he asked him: “When did you last see your parents?”

“I’ve forsaken them,” replied the General, worried that this was a test. “My father’s a priest, Comrade Stalin.”

“But is he a counter-revolutionary?”

“No, Comrade Stalin, he believes in God as a priest but he’s not a counter-revolutionary.”

“When the war’s quieter, I think you should take a plane, visit your parents and ask for their forgiveness.” Stalin did not forget Vasilevsky’s father: “Did you ever fly and see your parents and ask their blessing?” he asked later.

“Yes, Comrade Stalin,” replied Vasilevsky.

“It’ll be a long time before you pay off your debt to me.” Stalin then opened his safe and showed him some papers. They were money orders in Stalin’s own name that had been sent to Vasilevsky’s father throughout the war. The son, amazed and somewhat moved, thanked Stalin profusely.


I suspect that was a result of his concern for family, more than religion.

He bribed Vasilevsky's dad.

[Týr]

LarsMac;1439210 wrote: I suspect that was a result of his concern for family, more than religion.

He bribed Vasilevsky's dad.Alright, I've been reminding myself. The book gives no suggestion he was religious beyond his first year at the Seminary. It's my own interpretation that he spent time in later life thinking about such matters, I've no idea where I got it from and I'm sure I'm mistaken.

[tude dog]

Quote Originally Posted by Týr View Post

Be reasonable - Stalin was demonstrably religious.


Týr;1439193 wrote: Russian Orthodox, which is a branch of Christianity.

"When Stalin was sixteen, he received a scholarship to attend the Georgian Orthodox Tiflis Spiritual Seminary in Tbilisi", "a spiritual training institution, which operated from 1817 to 1919 in the Georgian Exarchate of the Russian Orthodox church" (wikipedia). He studied in the seminary for five years. It's a place that trains priests.


Really confusing here.

Tell us about his murderous action consistent with Russian Orthodox religion.

[Týr]

tude dog;1439214 wrote: Tell us about his murderous action consistent with Russian Orthodox religion.One can't be consistent with religion and also murderous? Try telling that to Torquemada.

[LarsMac]

LarsMac;1439210 wrote: I suspect that was a result of his concern for family, more than religion.

He bribed Vasilevsky's dad.


A new perspective: Stalin: The First In-depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives: Edvard Radzinsky: 9780385479547: Amazon.com: Books

I am finding it pretty interesting

[tude dog]

Týr;1439216 wrote: One can't be consistent with religion and also murderous?


Depends on the religion.

Are you saying Russian Orthodox are comfortable with murder?



Týr;1439216 wrote: Try telling that to Torquemada.


Cute

Tell that Torque, , who ever to log in here to Forumgarden.com Maybe we could become buddies.

[tude dog]

Týr;1439216 wrote: One can't be consistent with religion and also murderous? Try telling that to Torquemada.


Whatever

Had to look that up. Gotta remember that for the next time I play Trivial Pursuit.