Bishop Paprocki: Voting Democratic puts Soul at Risk, Party backs "Intrinsic Evils" - YouTube
Haven't a clue how influential this is likely to be but I'm really surprised that in the US they want to take sides like this and think it acceptable to tell their congregations how to vote. They're doing it a bit here as well along with the more puritanical churches but generally they are getting frantic because people just ignore them and are nice to each other.
Oh come on - from the same page
Fischer on Whether Obama is the Antichrist: 'It's Too Early To Say' - YouTube
vote democrat and go to hell
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406251 wrote: Bishop Paprocki: Voting Democratic puts Soul at Risk, Party backs "Intrinsic Evils" - YouTube
Haven't a clue how influential this is likely to be but I'm really surprised that in the US they want to take sides like this and think it acceptable to tell their congregations how to vote. They're doing it a bit here as well along with the more puritanical churches but generally they are getting frantic because people just ignore them and are nice to each other.
Oh come on - from the same page
Fischer on Whether Obama is the Antichrist: 'It's Too Early To Say' - YouTube
People for the American way are only honest when they say Support the Fight for Progressive Values. That I understand.
Their page Right Wing Watch purpose seems to smear conservatives and conservative values as without rational basis.
They should look in their own back yard, plenty of wing nuts there.
The political bowl is full of nuts of all types.
Haven't a clue how influential this is likely to be but I'm really surprised that in the US they want to take sides like this and think it acceptable to tell their congregations how to vote. They're doing it a bit here as well along with the more puritanical churches but generally they are getting frantic because people just ignore them and are nice to each other.
Oh come on - from the same page
Fischer on Whether Obama is the Antichrist: 'It's Too Early To Say' - YouTube
People for the American way are only honest when they say Support the Fight for Progressive Values. That I understand.
Their page Right Wing Watch purpose seems to smear conservatives and conservative values as without rational basis.
They should look in their own back yard, plenty of wing nuts there.
The political bowl is full of nuts of all types.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog;1406265 wrote: People for the American way are only honest when they say Support the Fight for Progressive Values. That I understand.
Their page Right Wing Watch purpose seems to smear conservatives and conservative values as without rational basis.
They should look in their own back yard, plenty of wing nuts there.
The political bowl is full of nuts of all types.
Religious faith is by it's very nature irrational and this is a catholic bishop in his own words telling his followers how to vote telling based on their religious faith or would you dispute that? This is also the same church - along with others - that preaches discrimination based on lifestyle and that we are all god's children , without a hint of understanding how hypocritical it is and protected it's clergy from the opprobrium of society because of the shame and harm it would do to the church - the victims were inconsequential.
More to the point there is a very good reason why you have separation of church and state and to have a bishop advocating people vote for the republicans rather misses the point don't you think?
Obama may be the Antichrist? are you seriously suggesting that is not irrational
Their page Right Wing Watch purpose seems to smear conservatives and conservative values as without rational basis.
They should look in their own back yard, plenty of wing nuts there.
The political bowl is full of nuts of all types.
Religious faith is by it's very nature irrational and this is a catholic bishop in his own words telling his followers how to vote telling based on their religious faith or would you dispute that? This is also the same church - along with others - that preaches discrimination based on lifestyle and that we are all god's children , without a hint of understanding how hypocritical it is and protected it's clergy from the opprobrium of society because of the shame and harm it would do to the church - the victims were inconsequential.
More to the point there is a very good reason why you have separation of church and state and to have a bishop advocating people vote for the republicans rather misses the point don't you think?
Obama may be the Antichrist? are you seriously suggesting that is not irrational
vote democrat and go to hell
The political bowl is full of nuts of all types.
No truer words have ever been written.
No truer words have ever been written.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406274 wrote: More to the point there is a very good reason why you have separation of church and state and to have a bishop advocating people vote for the republicans rather misses the point don't you think?
I didn't count how many times the Priest said "I am not telling you how to vote".
He was pointing out are positions taken by, in this case the Democratic Party inconsistent with the moral values of the Church. Think and pray about this before casting a vote.
That is exactly what I would expect from a Catholic Priest, either publicly or on the pulpit.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
gmc;1406274 wrote: Obama may be the Antichrist? are you seriously suggesting that is not irrational
There are a lot of people with irrational beliefs or, in the case of Progressives, Values.
I didn't count how many times the Priest said "I am not telling you how to vote".
He was pointing out are positions taken by, in this case the Democratic Party inconsistent with the moral values of the Church. Think and pray about this before casting a vote.
That is exactly what I would expect from a Catholic Priest, either publicly or on the pulpit.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
gmc;1406274 wrote: Obama may be the Antichrist? are you seriously suggesting that is not irrational
There are a lot of people with irrational beliefs or, in the case of Progressives, Values.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog;1406293 wrote: I didn't count how many times the Priest said "I am not telling you how to vote".
He was pointing out are positions taken by, in this case the Democratic Party inconsistent with the moral values of the Church. Think and pray about this before casting a vote.
That is exactly what I would expect from a Catholic Priest, either publicly or on the pulpit.
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
There are a lot of people with irrational beliefs or, in the case of Progressives, Values.
Depends how you look at it I suppose. The debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief.
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
When they start inciting religious bigotry and hatred or cross over in to trying to affect the political process which IMO this bishop is trying to do.
What do you mean by progressives and what do you have against progress. I'm not american some words have different connotations to me or mean bugger all - like progressives used in this context..
He was pointing out are positions taken by, in this case the Democratic Party inconsistent with the moral values of the Church. Think and pray about this before casting a vote.
That is exactly what I would expect from a Catholic Priest, either publicly or on the pulpit.
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
There are a lot of people with irrational beliefs or, in the case of Progressives, Values.
Depends how you look at it I suppose. The debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief.
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
When they start inciting religious bigotry and hatred or cross over in to trying to affect the political process which IMO this bishop is trying to do.
What do you mean by progressives and what do you have against progress. I'm not american some words have different connotations to me or mean bugger all - like progressives used in this context..
vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog;1406293 wrote:
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
Or, in this case, when does a religion acting as a political organization lose their tax-exempt status?
When does a religious person loose the right to freedom of speech?
Or, in this case, when does a religion acting as a political organization lose their tax-exempt status?
vote democrat and go to hell
Wandrin;1406326 wrote: Or, in this case, when does a religion acting as a political organization lose their tax-exempt status?
There has been talk if that very thing.
There has been talk if that very thing.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
vote democrat and go to hell
LarsMac;1406357 wrote: There has been talk if that very thing.
And if I have to vote for Romney to avoid going to Hell, I am doomed to the place, already.
And if I have to vote for Romney to avoid going to Hell, I am doomed to the place, already.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
vote democrat and go to hell
LarsMac;1406357 wrote: There has been talk if that very thing.
Wouldn't that be seen as just another attack on religious freedom by a secular society? You would have to end it for all religions just to be fair.
Wouldn't that be seen as just another attack on religious freedom by a secular society? You would have to end it for all religions just to be fair.
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406313 wrote: Depends how you look at it I suppose. The debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief.
How much science is there in abortion?? I don't look at science to offer answers on questions of morality, ethics etc.
Fact is, in 1973, Roe V. Wade
the U.S. Supreme Court stifled all political discussion on the subject.
, making all discussion reletive like as how many Angels can dance on a pin?
gmc;1406313 wrote: When they start inciting religious bigotry and hatred
Gee, I didn't catch that. Inciting Religious Bigotry and Hatred.
gmc;1406313 wrote: or cross over in to trying to affect the political process which IMO this bishop is trying to do.
I didn't see that there. I saw one individual exercising his Constitutional right preaching to his flock. Nothing about political process.
gmc;1406313 wrote: What do you mean by progressives
Best you go to People For the American Way
Support the Fight for Progressive Values
It is their Right Wing Watch which presented the two video we see.
Here is a stark example of what seems to me a perfect example of progressive thought.
If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
Spare me, I understand the chutzpah which leads somebody to such a statement, properly infuriating millions of us hard working Americans.
gmc;1406313 wrote: and what do you have against progress.
Progress is just fine and dandy. Well maybe, depends.
Like luck, there are two kinds, the good kind, and the bad.
gmc;1406313 wrote: I'm not american some words have different connotations to me or mean bugger all - like progressive..
It is just a word.
Like labeling an old product, NEW AND IMPROVED! Hold on to your wallet.
How much science is there in abortion?? I don't look at science to offer answers on questions of morality, ethics etc.
Fact is, in 1973, Roe V. Wade
the U.S. Supreme Court stifled all political discussion on the subject.
, making all discussion reletive like as how many Angels can dance on a pin?gmc;1406313 wrote: When they start inciting religious bigotry and hatred
Gee, I didn't catch that. Inciting Religious Bigotry and Hatred.
gmc;1406313 wrote: or cross over in to trying to affect the political process which IMO this bishop is trying to do.
I didn't see that there. I saw one individual exercising his Constitutional right preaching to his flock. Nothing about political process.
gmc;1406313 wrote: What do you mean by progressives
Best you go to People For the American Way
Support the Fight for Progressive Values
It is their Right Wing Watch which presented the two video we see.
Here is a stark example of what seems to me a perfect example of progressive thought.
If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
Spare me, I understand the chutzpah which leads somebody to such a statement, properly infuriating millions of us hard working Americans.
gmc;1406313 wrote: and what do you have against progress.
Progress is just fine and dandy. Well maybe, depends.
Like luck, there are two kinds, the good kind, and the bad.
gmc;1406313 wrote: I'm not american some words have different connotations to me or mean bugger all - like progressive..
It is just a word.
Like labeling an old product, NEW AND IMPROVED! Hold on to your wallet.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406371 wrote: Wouldn't that be seen as just another attack on religious freedom by a secular society? You would have to end it for all religions just to be fair.
There's a thought.
There's a thought.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
vote democrat and go to hell
Wandrin;1406326 wrote: Or, in this case, when does a religion acting as a political organization lose their tax-exempt status?
Same as any other tax exempt organization.
Same as any other tax exempt organization.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
vote democrat and go to hell
LarsMac;1406358 wrote: And if I have to vote for Romney to avoid going to Hell, I am doomed to the place, already.
Hehehe you got that right. The whole country is bound there already, & I don't see how we can stop it, either.
Hehehe you got that right. The whole country is bound there already, & I don't see how we can stop it, either.
vote democrat and go to hell
Saw a T-shirt yesterday.
Said:
Where are we going? and what's up with the handbasket?
Said:
Where are we going? and what's up with the handbasket?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
vote democrat and go to hell
posted by tude dog
How much science is there in abortion?? I don't look at science to offer answers on questions of morality, ethics etc.
Fact is, in 1973, Roe V. Wade
the U.S. Supreme Court stifled all political discussion on the subject., making all discussion reletive like as how many Angels can dance on a pin?
I wouldn't imagine many people do look to science for answers on questions of morality, ethics etc the information might help them decide some things though. I don;t look to religion for answers on questions of morality etc I am what is known as a freethinker, I can make up my own mind without the guidance of an imaginary being. I hope for your sake you do nt follow your religious leaders blindly. I'm not an american, hence the part about the debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief. Not to say religious belief doesn't come in to it but religious leaders and their influence are in decline.
Ubi dubium ibi libertas:
Where there is doubt, there is freedom
No freedom where religion rules the roost just ask any non believer who lives in a part of the world where it does'
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion - several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight.
-Mark Twain
posted by tude dog
I didn't see that there. I saw one individual exercising his Constitutional right preaching to his flock. Nothing about political process.
I did say it was my opinion, you are not obliged to agree with me. It looks fairly blatant to me I'm not telling you how to vote but if you vote democrat you are going to hell. Ate you suggesting most catholics will ignore the hint? Whish begs the question are they true catholics.
posted by tude dog
Best you go to People For the American Way
Support the Fight for Progressive Values
It is their Right Wing Watch which presented the two video we see.
Here is a stark example of what seems to me a perfect example of progressive thought.
If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
Spare me, I understand the chutzpah which leads somebody to such a statement, properly infuriating millions of us hard working Americans.
No thanks. Not being an american supporting the american way has, not surprisingly, very little appeal. Not a site I would have looked at though without your link. The title would put me off -Sounds a bit like project for the new american century. Looks like one of those organisations that just wants money without telling you what it's for.
Obama: If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
True enough, somebody else educated your workers and built the roads and infrastructure to get your goods to where you want them and someone else employs the people and pays them enough so they can buy them somebody else gets your workers well if they are sick. You need to somehow provide all the education, infrastructure, health etc etc no economy can succeed without it. We're all in the same community whether people like it or not. You should have a look at what adam smith had to say about the importance of a well educated healthy and well paid work force. and how some things are just too important for the common good to be left to market forces.
How much science is there in abortion?? I don't look at science to offer answers on questions of morality, ethics etc.
Fact is, in 1973, Roe V. Wade
the U.S. Supreme Court stifled all political discussion on the subject., making all discussion reletive like as how many Angels can dance on a pin?
I wouldn't imagine many people do look to science for answers on questions of morality, ethics etc the information might help them decide some things though. I don;t look to religion for answers on questions of morality etc I am what is known as a freethinker, I can make up my own mind without the guidance of an imaginary being. I hope for your sake you do nt follow your religious leaders blindly. I'm not an american, hence the part about the debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief. Not to say religious belief doesn't come in to it but religious leaders and their influence are in decline.
Ubi dubium ibi libertas:
Where there is doubt, there is freedom
No freedom where religion rules the roost just ask any non believer who lives in a part of the world where it does'
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion - several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight.
-Mark Twain
posted by tude dog
I didn't see that there. I saw one individual exercising his Constitutional right preaching to his flock. Nothing about political process.
I did say it was my opinion, you are not obliged to agree with me. It looks fairly blatant to me I'm not telling you how to vote but if you vote democrat you are going to hell. Ate you suggesting most catholics will ignore the hint? Whish begs the question are they true catholics.
posted by tude dog
Best you go to People For the American Way
Support the Fight for Progressive Values
It is their Right Wing Watch which presented the two video we see.
Here is a stark example of what seems to me a perfect example of progressive thought.
If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
Spare me, I understand the chutzpah which leads somebody to such a statement, properly infuriating millions of us hard working Americans.
No thanks. Not being an american supporting the american way has, not surprisingly, very little appeal. Not a site I would have looked at though without your link. The title would put me off -Sounds a bit like project for the new american century. Looks like one of those organisations that just wants money without telling you what it's for.
Obama: If You've Got A Business, You Didn't Build That
True enough, somebody else educated your workers and built the roads and infrastructure to get your goods to where you want them and someone else employs the people and pays them enough so they can buy them somebody else gets your workers well if they are sick. You need to somehow provide all the education, infrastructure, health etc etc no economy can succeed without it. We're all in the same community whether people like it or not. You should have a look at what adam smith had to say about the importance of a well educated healthy and well paid work force. and how some things are just too important for the common good to be left to market forces.
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406564 wrote: I wouldn't imagine many people do look to science for answers on questions of morality, ethics etc the information might help them decide some things though. I don;t look to religion for answers on questions of morality etc I am what is known as a freethinker,
Freethinker. Well gee, if your an atheist, just say so.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I can make up my own mind without the guidance of an imaginary being.
I usually suspect people who hear voices in their heads.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I hope for your sake you do nt follow your religious leaders blindly.
Hope? Try prayer, just as effective. I certainly appreciate that.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I'm not an american, hence the part about the debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief. Not to say religious belief doesn't come in to it but religious leaders and their influence are in decline.
Here there is no real debate at all. Mostly a lot of complaining from people opposed to abortion being locked out of the political arena.
gmc;1406564 wrote: No freedom where religion rules the roost just ask any non believer who lives in a part of the world where it does'
Hence I thank God that I live in the USA.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I did say it was my opinion, you are not obliged to agree with me. It looks fairly blatant to me I'm not telling you how to vote but if you vote democrat you are going to hell.
The video was taken down so I couldn't go back to that so I got this.
“not telling you which party or which candidates to vote for or against,” backing the Democratic Party may put your eternal salvation at risk: “a vote for a candidate who promotes actions or behaviors that are intrinsically evil and gravely sinful makes you morally complicit and places the eternal salvation of your own soul in serious jeopardy.”
Daily Kos: Bishop Paprocki: "Voters who support Democratic Party candidates are voting for 'intrinsic evils'"
Considering where it is coming from, sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I mean really, what's the big deal. It's a Catholic thing. Guidance on moral issues, thought that was a priests job. Totally within his Constitutional Rights.
gmc;1406564 wrote: Ate you suggesting most catholics will ignore the hint? Which begs the question are they true catholics.
Ever hear the term "Cafeteria Catholics", those who pick and choose from the Doctrine Menu what to follow or not? I have no stats on this but I suspect most all married (or unmarried) Catholics, despite the ban on contraceptives use them anyway. Could be wrong, but haven't really noticed Catholic families with more children than anyone else. In my parents day, regardless of religion, or lack of, it wasn't uncommon for families to have six or eight children. That was a different generation before the pill and a different attitude toward large families.
gmc;1406564 wrote: No thanks. Not being an american supporting the american way has, not surprisingly, very little appeal. Not a site I would have looked at though without your link. The title would put me off -Sounds a bit like project for the new american century. Looks like one of those organisations that just wants money without telling you what it's for.
I was just throwing that out there for your information.
gmc;1406564 wrote: True enough, somebody else educated your workers and built the roads and infrastructure to get your goods to where you want them and someone else employs the people and pays them enough so they can buy them somebody else gets your workers well if they are sick. You need to somehow provide all the education, infrastructure, health etc etc no economy can succeed without it. We're all in the same community whether people like it or not. You should have a look at what adam smith had to say about the importance of a well educated healthy and well paid work force. and how some things are just too important for the common good to be left to market forces.
I planted a garden. Used things like roads, garden tool, water fertilizer etc.
The roads, garden tool, water fertilizer etc. didn't just jump up and plant my garden.
I DID THAT!
Same thing for somebody who builds a business. That person gets an idea, takes stock of recourses available, uses his knowledge, talents, time, labor and creates a business.
He takes people, educated or not and CREATES A WORK FORCE.
HE BUILT HIS BUSINESS
He adds to the community. Pays taxes. This person should be celebrated, not snubbed with BS, like you didn't build that.
I worked in start up businesses and seen what it takes to start a successful business.
For the life of me, I will never understand why some people can't respect initiative, hard work, determination and risk taking becoming successful.
Freethinker. Well gee, if your an atheist, just say so.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I can make up my own mind without the guidance of an imaginary being.
I usually suspect people who hear voices in their heads.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I hope for your sake you do nt follow your religious leaders blindly.
Hope? Try prayer, just as effective. I certainly appreciate that.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I'm not an american, hence the part about the debates on abortion and the like over here tend to be more about the science than the religious belief. Not to say religious belief doesn't come in to it but religious leaders and their influence are in decline.
Here there is no real debate at all. Mostly a lot of complaining from people opposed to abortion being locked out of the political arena.
gmc;1406564 wrote: No freedom where religion rules the roost just ask any non believer who lives in a part of the world where it does'
Hence I thank God that I live in the USA.
gmc;1406564 wrote: I did say it was my opinion, you are not obliged to agree with me. It looks fairly blatant to me I'm not telling you how to vote but if you vote democrat you are going to hell.
The video was taken down so I couldn't go back to that so I got this.
“not telling you which party or which candidates to vote for or against,” backing the Democratic Party may put your eternal salvation at risk: “a vote for a candidate who promotes actions or behaviors that are intrinsically evil and gravely sinful makes you morally complicit and places the eternal salvation of your own soul in serious jeopardy.”
Daily Kos: Bishop Paprocki: "Voters who support Democratic Party candidates are voting for 'intrinsic evils'"
Considering where it is coming from, sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I mean really, what's the big deal. It's a Catholic thing. Guidance on moral issues, thought that was a priests job. Totally within his Constitutional Rights.
gmc;1406564 wrote: Ate you suggesting most catholics will ignore the hint? Which begs the question are they true catholics.
Ever hear the term "Cafeteria Catholics", those who pick and choose from the Doctrine Menu what to follow or not? I have no stats on this but I suspect most all married (or unmarried) Catholics, despite the ban on contraceptives use them anyway. Could be wrong, but haven't really noticed Catholic families with more children than anyone else. In my parents day, regardless of religion, or lack of, it wasn't uncommon for families to have six or eight children. That was a different generation before the pill and a different attitude toward large families.
gmc;1406564 wrote: No thanks. Not being an american supporting the american way has, not surprisingly, very little appeal. Not a site I would have looked at though without your link. The title would put me off -Sounds a bit like project for the new american century. Looks like one of those organisations that just wants money without telling you what it's for.
I was just throwing that out there for your information.
gmc;1406564 wrote: True enough, somebody else educated your workers and built the roads and infrastructure to get your goods to where you want them and someone else employs the people and pays them enough so they can buy them somebody else gets your workers well if they are sick. You need to somehow provide all the education, infrastructure, health etc etc no economy can succeed without it. We're all in the same community whether people like it or not. You should have a look at what adam smith had to say about the importance of a well educated healthy and well paid work force. and how some things are just too important for the common good to be left to market forces.
I planted a garden. Used things like roads, garden tool, water fertilizer etc.
The roads, garden tool, water fertilizer etc. didn't just jump up and plant my garden.
I DID THAT!
Same thing for somebody who builds a business. That person gets an idea, takes stock of recourses available, uses his knowledge, talents, time, labor and creates a business.
He takes people, educated or not and CREATES A WORK FORCE.
HE BUILT HIS BUSINESS
He adds to the community. Pays taxes. This person should be celebrated, not snubbed with BS, like you didn't build that.
I worked in start up businesses and seen what it takes to start a successful business.
For the life of me, I will never understand why some people can't respect initiative, hard work, determination and risk taking becoming successful.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
posted by tude dog
Freethinker. Well gee, if your an atheist, just say so.
Actually the two are not synonymous, if i was an atheist I would say so - after all there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I'm sure there is not a god but can't prove there isn't so on balance weighing up the evidence I'm 99.99% convinced there isn't one. On the other hand just because you can't explain things is no reason to make up an imaginary being.
posted by tude dog
Considering where it is coming from, sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I mean really, what's the big deal. It's a Catholic thing. Guidance on moral issues, thought that was a priests job. Totally within his Constitutional Rights.
Catholics are supposed to obey the dictats of their church if they start telling people how to vote they are interfering in a free election process. How many Catholics are there in the united states and if they all did as they are told for the sake of their immortal souls what would be the effect. Protestant sects tend not to have so many followers except in pockets where they can make difference but naturally as freethinker I don't think anyone should just obey the priests. The writers of your constitution were mainly protestant and freethinkers - it started out originally as a movement against church dogma - and their influence can be seen in the wording of the first amendment.
QUOTE]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Eleven of the first 15 presidents were of ulster scots extraction, I suspect it's a fairly safe bet the catholic thing was a big influence on their thinking although I would be hard pushed to back that up.
How about if the christian fundamentalist start telling their flocks the same thing you will; have a situation where religious leaders are deciding who will be president. Is that what you want? Presidents afraid of offending the churches
Hence I thank God that I live in the USA.
That's only cos you don't know any better. (no smillies available - that's a joke)
posted by tude dog
Ever hear the term "Cafeteria Catholics", those who pick and choose from the Doctrine Menu what to follow or not? I have no stats on this but I suspect most all married (or unmarried) Catholics, despite the ban on contraceptives use them anyway. Could be wrong, but haven't really noticed Catholic families with more children than anyone else. In my parents day, regardless of religion, or lack of, it wasn't uncommon for families to have six or eight children. That was a different generation before the pill and a different attitude toward large families.
Yes I have. It's the same here to a large extent but the pope is losing influence all around the world recently he has started trying to re-exert his authority I suppose most people will ignore this else it will lead to conflict.
posted by tude dog
For the life of me, I will never understand why some people can't respect initiative, hard work, determination and risk taking becoming successful.
That's not what he is saying though is it? Is it not a reminder that these things don't happen in isolation. If low wages, little infrastructure or government and no access to education were all it took africa would be he richest country on the planet filled with millionaires. It's not accidental that countries that do well and continue to do well are the ones that place a value on things like education and free access to it and believe government has a role in the greater good. So did the so called father of capitalism. He grew up in a country where education was free an compulsory up to secondary level and further education was freely available although you had to pay for it. Used to be anyone could attend university lectures as and when they wanted to they just paid at the door, in actual fact access to tertiary education is harder now than it used to be, Education was seen as the great leveller in society and should be available to all regardless of wealth by right and for the greater good of all. You now have a presidential candidate that categorises half the population as scroungers and undeserving poor. Why would anyone vote for him and why aren't the 47% baying for blood? Mind you I do have my own prejudices about these things I don't actually claim to understand the way Americans think and no matter how much i look at these types of threads i still can't get my head round it. You are weird man to use an Americanism.
Freethinker. Well gee, if your an atheist, just say so.
Actually the two are not synonymous, if i was an atheist I would say so - after all there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I'm sure there is not a god but can't prove there isn't so on balance weighing up the evidence I'm 99.99% convinced there isn't one. On the other hand just because you can't explain things is no reason to make up an imaginary being.
posted by tude dog
Considering where it is coming from, sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I mean really, what's the big deal. It's a Catholic thing. Guidance on moral issues, thought that was a priests job. Totally within his Constitutional Rights.
Catholics are supposed to obey the dictats of their church if they start telling people how to vote they are interfering in a free election process. How many Catholics are there in the united states and if they all did as they are told for the sake of their immortal souls what would be the effect. Protestant sects tend not to have so many followers except in pockets where they can make difference but naturally as freethinker I don't think anyone should just obey the priests. The writers of your constitution were mainly protestant and freethinkers - it started out originally as a movement against church dogma - and their influence can be seen in the wording of the first amendment.
QUOTE]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Eleven of the first 15 presidents were of ulster scots extraction, I suspect it's a fairly safe bet the catholic thing was a big influence on their thinking although I would be hard pushed to back that up.
How about if the christian fundamentalist start telling their flocks the same thing you will; have a situation where religious leaders are deciding who will be president. Is that what you want? Presidents afraid of offending the churches
Hence I thank God that I live in the USA.
That's only cos you don't know any better. (no smillies available - that's a joke)
posted by tude dog
Ever hear the term "Cafeteria Catholics", those who pick and choose from the Doctrine Menu what to follow or not? I have no stats on this but I suspect most all married (or unmarried) Catholics, despite the ban on contraceptives use them anyway. Could be wrong, but haven't really noticed Catholic families with more children than anyone else. In my parents day, regardless of religion, or lack of, it wasn't uncommon for families to have six or eight children. That was a different generation before the pill and a different attitude toward large families.
Yes I have. It's the same here to a large extent but the pope is losing influence all around the world recently he has started trying to re-exert his authority I suppose most people will ignore this else it will lead to conflict.
posted by tude dog
For the life of me, I will never understand why some people can't respect initiative, hard work, determination and risk taking becoming successful.
That's not what he is saying though is it? Is it not a reminder that these things don't happen in isolation. If low wages, little infrastructure or government and no access to education were all it took africa would be he richest country on the planet filled with millionaires. It's not accidental that countries that do well and continue to do well are the ones that place a value on things like education and free access to it and believe government has a role in the greater good. So did the so called father of capitalism. He grew up in a country where education was free an compulsory up to secondary level and further education was freely available although you had to pay for it. Used to be anyone could attend university lectures as and when they wanted to they just paid at the door, in actual fact access to tertiary education is harder now than it used to be, Education was seen as the great leveller in society and should be available to all regardless of wealth by right and for the greater good of all. You now have a presidential candidate that categorises half the population as scroungers and undeserving poor. Why would anyone vote for him and why aren't the 47% baying for blood? Mind you I do have my own prejudices about these things I don't actually claim to understand the way Americans think and no matter how much i look at these types of threads i still can't get my head round it. You are weird man to use an Americanism.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
vote democrat and go to hell
Great post Auld Yin.... Very Informative,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406723 wrote:
Actually the two are not synonymous, if i was an atheist I would say so - after all there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I'm sure there is not a god but can't prove there isn't so on balance weighing up the evidence I'm 99.99% convinced there isn't one. On the other hand just because you can't explain things is no reason to make up an imaginary being.
Thank you for that. When I read Freethinker, I had an idea what that might mean. Rather than assume and go further I Googled it. Atheist was prominent, then there were more than one view. So I reduced it to atheist as the common denominator.
gmc;1406723 wrote:
Catholics are supposed to obey the dictats of their church if they start telling people how to vote they are interfering in a free election process. How many Catholics are there in the united states and if they all did as they are told for the sake of their immortal souls what would be the effect. Protestant sects tend not to have so many followers except in pockets where they can make difference but naturally as freethinker I don't think anyone should just obey the priests. The writers of your constitution were mainly protestant and freethinkers - it started out originally as a movement against church dogma - and their influence can be seen in the wording of the first amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Eleven of the first 15 presidents were of ulster scots extraction, I suspect it's a fairly safe bet the catholic thing was a big influence on their thinking although I would be hard pushed to back that up.
A lot has been said about religious belief of our Founding Fathers. The most important, IMO was the Protestant influence in that there are so many sects none wanted another to dominate. That is why they were so amiable to a system of separation of powers. From the three branches of the Federal Government, 13 (now 50) states, counties, cities and towns. All having different levels of authority.
gmc;1406723 wrote: How about if the christian fundamentalist start telling their flocks the same thing you will; have a situation where religious leaders are deciding who will be president. Is that what you want? Presidents afraid of offending the churches
As far as I know fundamentalists have always, one way or the other told or tried to influence each other as who to vote for. Just the MORAL MAJORITY may not be around anymore, the press still refers to the Religious Right, but no doubt religious people of all stripes strive to influence voters.
Jewish leaders who speak in favor of Israel, shut them up also? Good luck to anyone who tries that.
gmc;1406723 wrote: That's only cos you don't know any better. (no smillies available - that's a joke)
Hate to admit.
, I don't know any better. I do tend to get all wrapped up and just take everything all serious. Thanx
[QUOTE=gmc;1406723]That's not what he is saying though is it? Is it not a reminder that these things don't happen in isolation. If low wages, little infrastructure or government and no access to education were all it took africa would be he richest country on the planet filled with millionaires. It's not accidental that countries that do well and continue to do well are the ones that place a value on things like education and free access to it and believe government has a role in the greater good. So did the so called father of capitalism. He grew up in a country where education was free an compulsory up to secondary level and further education was freely available although you had to pay for it. Used to be anyone could attend university lectures as and when they wanted to they just paid at the door, in actual fact access to tertiary education is harder now than it used to be, Education was seen as the great leveller in society and should be available to all regardless of wealth by right and for the greater good of all.
His policies, attitude etc. all point to a demeaning of the individual and favors dependence on government.
There is no doubt we all benefit from the infrastructure. If not for the corruption, other factors no doubt Africa would be the center of world wealth. As so South America would be a powerful economic influence.
None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors.
gmc;1406723 wrote: You now have a presidential candidate that categorises half the population as scroungers and undeserving poor. Why would anyone vote for him and why aren't the 47% baying for blood? Mind you I do have my own prejudices about these things I don't actually claim to understand the way Americans think and no matter how much i look at these types of threads i still can't get my head round it. You are weird man to use an Americanism.
What a shame that meeting with donors he stated the obvious. He has nothing to offer the 47% of the population who dot no pay income taxes. Folk who collect food stamps or other forms of welfare.
What's he suppose to do? He could get into a bidding war with the president to see who can give away the most money from those of us who pay taxes.
How horrible it is to admit there is nothing he could do to convince them to do something for themselves.
Actually the two are not synonymous, if i was an atheist I would say so - after all there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I'm sure there is not a god but can't prove there isn't so on balance weighing up the evidence I'm 99.99% convinced there isn't one. On the other hand just because you can't explain things is no reason to make up an imaginary being.
Thank you for that. When I read Freethinker, I had an idea what that might mean. Rather than assume and go further I Googled it. Atheist was prominent, then there were more than one view. So I reduced it to atheist as the common denominator.
gmc;1406723 wrote:
Catholics are supposed to obey the dictats of their church if they start telling people how to vote they are interfering in a free election process. How many Catholics are there in the united states and if they all did as they are told for the sake of their immortal souls what would be the effect. Protestant sects tend not to have so many followers except in pockets where they can make difference but naturally as freethinker I don't think anyone should just obey the priests. The writers of your constitution were mainly protestant and freethinkers - it started out originally as a movement against church dogma - and their influence can be seen in the wording of the first amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Eleven of the first 15 presidents were of ulster scots extraction, I suspect it's a fairly safe bet the catholic thing was a big influence on their thinking although I would be hard pushed to back that up.
A lot has been said about religious belief of our Founding Fathers. The most important, IMO was the Protestant influence in that there are so many sects none wanted another to dominate. That is why they were so amiable to a system of separation of powers. From the three branches of the Federal Government, 13 (now 50) states, counties, cities and towns. All having different levels of authority.
gmc;1406723 wrote: How about if the christian fundamentalist start telling their flocks the same thing you will; have a situation where religious leaders are deciding who will be president. Is that what you want? Presidents afraid of offending the churches
As far as I know fundamentalists have always, one way or the other told or tried to influence each other as who to vote for. Just the MORAL MAJORITY may not be around anymore, the press still refers to the Religious Right, but no doubt religious people of all stripes strive to influence voters.
Jewish leaders who speak in favor of Israel, shut them up also? Good luck to anyone who tries that.
gmc;1406723 wrote: That's only cos you don't know any better. (no smillies available - that's a joke)
Hate to admit.
, I don't know any better. I do tend to get all wrapped up and just take everything all serious. Thanx[QUOTE=gmc;1406723]That's not what he is saying though is it? Is it not a reminder that these things don't happen in isolation. If low wages, little infrastructure or government and no access to education were all it took africa would be he richest country on the planet filled with millionaires. It's not accidental that countries that do well and continue to do well are the ones that place a value on things like education and free access to it and believe government has a role in the greater good. So did the so called father of capitalism. He grew up in a country where education was free an compulsory up to secondary level and further education was freely available although you had to pay for it. Used to be anyone could attend university lectures as and when they wanted to they just paid at the door, in actual fact access to tertiary education is harder now than it used to be, Education was seen as the great leveller in society and should be available to all regardless of wealth by right and for the greater good of all.
His policies, attitude etc. all point to a demeaning of the individual and favors dependence on government.
There is no doubt we all benefit from the infrastructure. If not for the corruption, other factors no doubt Africa would be the center of world wealth. As so South America would be a powerful economic influence.
None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors.
gmc;1406723 wrote: You now have a presidential candidate that categorises half the population as scroungers and undeserving poor. Why would anyone vote for him and why aren't the 47% baying for blood? Mind you I do have my own prejudices about these things I don't actually claim to understand the way Americans think and no matter how much i look at these types of threads i still can't get my head round it. You are weird man to use an Americanism.
What a shame that meeting with donors he stated the obvious. He has nothing to offer the 47% of the population who dot no pay income taxes. Folk who collect food stamps or other forms of welfare.
What's he suppose to do? He could get into a bidding war with the president to see who can give away the most money from those of us who pay taxes.
How horrible it is to admit there is nothing he could do to convince them to do something for themselves.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
posted by tude dog
His policies, attitude etc. all point to a demeaning of the individual and favors dependence on government.
There is no doubt we all benefit from the infrastructure. If not for the corruption, other factors no doubt Africa would be the center of world wealth. As so South America would be a powerful economic influence.
None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors.
Don't know enough about his policies to comment. One thing he is not is a socialist in any form. Demanding your government provide basic social welfare is not demanding to be dependant it's asking for social justice - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. (surprising the number of films that are about the little man taking on the big cattle rancher who want to take the land from the homesteader or in one way or another feature the little man against the big corporation. ( have a look at some of john waynes older films of you donl;t believe me) It's as if the history of that struggle has been forgotten. Crikey even the recent muppets movie was seen as anti-capitalist because of the story line about defending the theatre against property developers, you couldn;t make that up.
In South america the US had systematically interfered with any attempts on the part of it's people to exert their democratic rights when that threatened American business interests. Nicaragua and chile are just two of the most blatant where a right wing dictatorship was backed against a popular revolt and in the case of chile a left wing government was deliberately brought down. What's happening there is the right are beginning to finally lose the battle and they are indeed beginning to become centres of influence but thanks to social democracy not right wing economics. None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors vbery true but you need to consider why there is such a difference unless you buy in to the idea that people in those countries are in some way less intelligent than those in the first world.
A lot has been said about religious belief of our Founding Fathers. The most important, IMO was the Protestant influence in that there are so many sects none wanted another to dominate. That is why they were so amiable to a system of separation of powers. From the three branches of the Federal Government, 13 (now 50) states, counties, cities and towns. All having different levels of authority.
Actually I would be inclined to agree with you there. The early freethinkers were the early protestants the key meaning of the word being one who doubts or denies religious dogma and claimed the right to think for oneself your founding fathers were very much in that tradition, the ulster scots connection was one I only recently came across, you tend to see portrayal of irish immigration to america being mainly catholic.
posted by tude dog
What a shame that meeting with donors he stated the obvious. He has nothing to offer the 47% of the population who dot no pay income taxes. Folk who collect food stamps or other forms of welfare.
What's he suppose to do? He could get into a bidding war with the president to see who can give away the most money from those of us who pay taxes.
How horrible it is to admit there is nothing he could do to convince them to do something for themselves.
Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that. They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
His policies, attitude etc. all point to a demeaning of the individual and favors dependence on government.
There is no doubt we all benefit from the infrastructure. If not for the corruption, other factors no doubt Africa would be the center of world wealth. As so South America would be a powerful economic influence.
None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors.
Don't know enough about his policies to comment. One thing he is not is a socialist in any form. Demanding your government provide basic social welfare is not demanding to be dependant it's asking for social justice - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. (surprising the number of films that are about the little man taking on the big cattle rancher who want to take the land from the homesteader or in one way or another feature the little man against the big corporation. ( have a look at some of john waynes older films of you donl;t believe me) It's as if the history of that struggle has been forgotten. Crikey even the recent muppets movie was seen as anti-capitalist because of the story line about defending the theatre against property developers, you couldn;t make that up.
In South america the US had systematically interfered with any attempts on the part of it's people to exert their democratic rights when that threatened American business interests. Nicaragua and chile are just two of the most blatant where a right wing dictatorship was backed against a popular revolt and in the case of chile a left wing government was deliberately brought down. What's happening there is the right are beginning to finally lose the battle and they are indeed beginning to become centres of influence but thanks to social democracy not right wing economics. None the less, individuals who are enterprising my not achieve the wealth in first world countries, but do better than his neighbors vbery true but you need to consider why there is such a difference unless you buy in to the idea that people in those countries are in some way less intelligent than those in the first world.
A lot has been said about religious belief of our Founding Fathers. The most important, IMO was the Protestant influence in that there are so many sects none wanted another to dominate. That is why they were so amiable to a system of separation of powers. From the three branches of the Federal Government, 13 (now 50) states, counties, cities and towns. All having different levels of authority.
Actually I would be inclined to agree with you there. The early freethinkers were the early protestants the key meaning of the word being one who doubts or denies religious dogma and claimed the right to think for oneself your founding fathers were very much in that tradition, the ulster scots connection was one I only recently came across, you tend to see portrayal of irish immigration to america being mainly catholic.
posted by tude dog
What a shame that meeting with donors he stated the obvious. He has nothing to offer the 47% of the population who dot no pay income taxes. Folk who collect food stamps or other forms of welfare.
What's he suppose to do? He could get into a bidding war with the president to see who can give away the most money from those of us who pay taxes.
How horrible it is to admit there is nothing he could do to convince them to do something for themselves.
Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that. They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc:
Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that. They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
We are very strange here. Many of us are under the delusion that one day we too will become millionaires--Famous millionaires. Therefore we can't be too chummy with "our own" as one day we will be joining those lucky enough to pay taxes..........so keep them low. :-5
Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that. They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
We are very strange here. Many of us are under the delusion that one day we too will become millionaires--Famous millionaires. Therefore we can't be too chummy with "our own" as one day we will be joining those lucky enough to pay taxes..........so keep them low. :-5
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1406797 wrote: posted by tude dog
Don't know enough about his policies to comment. One thing he is not is a socialist in any form.
I call it socialist lite. His answer to joblessness is expanding government. Backing unions and their quest for power.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Demanding your government provide basic social welfare is not demanding to be dependant it's asking for social justice
Social justice. hmm
How about just leave me alone and not pick my pocket.
gmc;1406797 wrote: - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. (surprising the number of films that are about the little man taking on the big cattle rancher who want to take the land from the homesteader or in one way or another feature the little man against the big corporation. ( have a look at some of john waynes older films of you donl;t believe me) It's as if the history of that struggle has been forgotten. Crikey even the recent muppets movie was seen as anti-capitalist because of the story line about defending the theatre against property developers, you couldn;t make that up.
Movies aside, I never considered the range wars as social justice. A fight between two interests. Both political and physical. Yup, there were a lot more farmers, or people wanting to homestead. That equals more votes than ranchers could ever hope to equal. Definitely an unequal fight on the political front. Farmers won and wrote the history on that chapter.
gmc;1406797 wrote: In South america the US had systematically interfered with any attempts on the part of it's people to exert their democratic rights when that threatened American business interests. Nicaragua and chile are just two of the most blatant where a right wing dictatorship was backed against a popular revolt and in the case of chile a left wing government was deliberately brought down.
Nobody can take down a government without domestic support. I never fully understood Chile. Nicaragua is a different story, and I would have zero sympathy if somehow the Ortega brothers were killed in their sleep. They were no better than mobsters.
gmc;1406797 wrote: What's happening there is the right are beginning to finally lose the battle and they are indeed beginning to become centres of influence but thanks to social democracy not right wing economics.
I don't pay all that much attention to South America. So I'll take your word on that.
gmc;1406797 wrote: vbery true but you need to consider why there is such a difference unless you buy in to the idea that people in those countries are in some way less intelligent than those in the first world.
Not less intelligent. Misdirected maybe, but not less intelligent.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Actually I would be inclined to agree with you there. The early freethinkers were the early protestants the key meaning of the word being one who doubts or denies religious dogma and claimed the right to think for oneself your founding fathers were very much in that tradition, the ulster scots connection was one I only recently came across, you tend to see portrayal of irish immigration to america being mainly catholic.
Very religious in their thinking. They were practical with self interest, preservation of their own religious identity.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that.
I am just as angry at the 'social justice crowd'. Folks like Representative Barney Frank, (D) Massachusetts. These clowns promoted this bizarre concept that everybody was entitled to own a house. Pushing the two federal banks, Fannie Mae The Federal National Mortgage Association and Freddie Mac The Federal National Mortgage Association to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. Open the door to what anybody should expect, flat out corruption.
One didn't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see the housing market was overdue to a crash. But then, far be it to hear that from the 'social justice crowd'. As long as people were happy in homes they could never hope to afford.
gmc;1406797 wrote: They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
Waste of space? I couldn't find a transcript of the speech, but somehow I don't believe he would say such a thing.
Don't know enough about his policies to comment. One thing he is not is a socialist in any form.
I call it socialist lite. His answer to joblessness is expanding government. Backing unions and their quest for power.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Demanding your government provide basic social welfare is not demanding to be dependant it's asking for social justice
Social justice. hmm
How about just leave me alone and not pick my pocket.
gmc;1406797 wrote: - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. (surprising the number of films that are about the little man taking on the big cattle rancher who want to take the land from the homesteader or in one way or another feature the little man against the big corporation. ( have a look at some of john waynes older films of you donl;t believe me) It's as if the history of that struggle has been forgotten. Crikey even the recent muppets movie was seen as anti-capitalist because of the story line about defending the theatre against property developers, you couldn;t make that up.
Movies aside, I never considered the range wars as social justice. A fight between two interests. Both political and physical. Yup, there were a lot more farmers, or people wanting to homestead. That equals more votes than ranchers could ever hope to equal. Definitely an unequal fight on the political front. Farmers won and wrote the history on that chapter.
gmc;1406797 wrote: In South america the US had systematically interfered with any attempts on the part of it's people to exert their democratic rights when that threatened American business interests. Nicaragua and chile are just two of the most blatant where a right wing dictatorship was backed against a popular revolt and in the case of chile a left wing government was deliberately brought down.
Nobody can take down a government without domestic support. I never fully understood Chile. Nicaragua is a different story, and I would have zero sympathy if somehow the Ortega brothers were killed in their sleep. They were no better than mobsters.
gmc;1406797 wrote: What's happening there is the right are beginning to finally lose the battle and they are indeed beginning to become centres of influence but thanks to social democracy not right wing economics.
I don't pay all that much attention to South America. So I'll take your word on that.
gmc;1406797 wrote: vbery true but you need to consider why there is such a difference unless you buy in to the idea that people in those countries are in some way less intelligent than those in the first world.
Not less intelligent. Misdirected maybe, but not less intelligent.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Actually I would be inclined to agree with you there. The early freethinkers were the early protestants the key meaning of the word being one who doubts or denies religious dogma and claimed the right to think for oneself your founding fathers were very much in that tradition, the ulster scots connection was one I only recently came across, you tend to see portrayal of irish immigration to america being mainly catholic.
Very religious in their thinking. They were practical with self interest, preservation of their own religious identity.
gmc;1406797 wrote: Perhaps your 47% should start getting angry at what the bankers and politicians have done to the US it's not them that have rendered you bankrupt and in hock to the Chinese it's the mitt romneys and his ilk that did that.
I am just as angry at the 'social justice crowd'. Folks like Representative Barney Frank, (D) Massachusetts. These clowns promoted this bizarre concept that everybody was entitled to own a house. Pushing the two federal banks, Fannie Mae The Federal National Mortgage Association and Freddie Mac The Federal National Mortgage Association to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. Open the door to what anybody should expect, flat out corruption.
One didn't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see the housing market was overdue to a crash. But then, far be it to hear that from the 'social justice crowd'. As long as people were happy in homes they could never hope to afford.
gmc;1406797 wrote: They all have votes maybe he should think of something rather than telling them they are a waste of space. That kind of crack would have a lynch mob at his door over here. All it takes here is for a cabinet minister to call a policeman a pleb and his career is on the rocks.
Waste of space? I couldn't find a transcript of the speech, but somehow I don't believe he would say such a thing.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
vote democrat and go to hell
AnneBoleyn;1406890 wrote: gmc:
We are very strange here. Many of us are under the delusion that one day we too will become millionaires--Famous millionaires. Therefore we can't be too chummy with "our own" as one day we will be joining those lucky enough to pay taxes..........so keep them low. :-5
There are those. I would suppose that last only so long until reality sinks in. Then they waste their money on lottery tickets.
Lucky me, taxpayer:yh_rotfl
We are very strange here. Many of us are under the delusion that one day we too will become millionaires--Famous millionaires. Therefore we can't be too chummy with "our own" as one day we will be joining those lucky enough to pay taxes..........so keep them low. :-5
There are those. I would suppose that last only so long until reality sinks in. Then they waste their money on lottery tickets.
Lucky me, taxpayer:yh_rotfl
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
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AnneBoleyn
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vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog;1407064 wrote: There are those. I would suppose that last only so long until reality sinks in. Then they waste their money on lottery tickets.
Lucky me, taxpayer:yh_rotfl
The only reality that sinks in is keeping up w/kardashians. Lottery. I know but someone does get to win..........I barely buy but so far I'm lucky in that I never saw my numbers come up when I don't buy. When I do play, I've been buying the same numbers for ....... let's call it a long time. Very long time. How many of these :-5:-5:-5 does it take to kill a person? I can think of no other way to deal.
Lucky me, taxpayer:yh_rotfl
The only reality that sinks in is keeping up w/kardashians. Lottery. I know but someone does get to win..........I barely buy but so far I'm lucky in that I never saw my numbers come up when I don't buy. When I do play, I've been buying the same numbers for ....... let's call it a long time. Very long time. How many of these :-5:-5:-5 does it take to kill a person? I can think of no other way to deal.
vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog]I call it socialist lite. His answer to joblessness is expanding government. Backing unions and their quest for power.
the unions have been emasculated in the states now the political parties can just get fun ding from the rich or biog corporations. If you think it wrong for the unions to seek political power why do you think it OK for big corporations to seek power? If you do that is.
Social justice. hmm
How about just leave me alone and not pick my pocket.
Who knows some day you might be on welfare if you happen to lose your job or ability to earn.
Movies aside, I never considered the range wars as social justice. A fight between two interests. Both political and physical. Yup, there were a lot more farmers, or people wanting to homestead. That equals more votes than ranchers could ever hope to equal. Definitely an unequal fight on the political front. Farmers won and wrote the history on that chapter.
The little man fighting for his rights against the powerful who think they can do what they want. Nothing changes just the terminology. Try would be feudal landlords carving out a fiefdom and peasant farmers instead of ranchers and homesteaders
Nobody can take down a government without domestic support. I never fully understood Chile. Nicaragua is a different story, and I would have zero sympathy if somehow the Ortega brothers were killed in their sleep. They were no better than mobsters.
Yes they can, invariably they lose in the long run but the last fifty years is full of examples where governments have been brought down by outsiders.
DN! Nixon and Kissinger Admitted to CIA Assassination Attempt in Chile - YouTube
Salvador Allende - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During the second term of office of Democratic President Bill Clinton, the CIA acknowledged having played a role in Chilean politics prior to the coup, but its degree of involvement is debated. The CIA was notified by its Chilean contacts of the impending coup two days in advance, but contends it "played no direct role in" the coup.[40]
[QUOTE]Much of the internal opposition to Allende's policies came from business sector, and recently-released U.S. government documents confirm that the U.S. indirectly[25] funded the truck drivers' strike,[41] which exacerbated the already chaotic economic situation prior to the coup.
The most prominent U.S. corporations in Chile prior to Allende's presidency were the Anaconda and Kennecott copper companies, and ITT Corporation, International Telephone and Telegraph. Both the copper corporations aimed to expand privatized copper production in the city of El Teniente in the Chilean Andes, the world's largest underground copper mine.[42] At the end of 1968, according to US Department of Commerce data, U.S. corporate holdings in Chile amounted to $964 million. Anaconda and Kennecott accounted for 28% of U.S. holdings, but ITT had by far the largest holding of any single corporation, with an investment of $200 million in Chile.[42] In 1970, before Allende was elected, ITT owned 70% of Chitelco, the Chilean Telephone Company and funded El Mercurio, a Chilean right-wing newspaper. Documents released in 2000 by the CIA confirmed that before the elections of 1970, ITT gave $700,000 to Allende's conservative opponent, Jorge Alessandri, with help from the CIA on how to channel the money safely. ITT president Harold Geneen also offered $1 million to the CIA to help defeat Allende in the elections.[43]
After General Pinochet assumed power, United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told President Richard Nixon that the U.S. "didn't do it," but "we helped them...created the conditions as great as possible." (referring to the coup itself).[44] Recent documents declassified under the Clinton administration's Chile Declassification Project show that the United States government and the CIA sought the overthrow of Allende in 1970 immediately before he took office ("Project FUBELT"). Many documents regarding the U.S. intervention in Chile remain classified.
Do some digging, it might surprise you.
I don't pay all that much attention to South America. So I'll take your word on that.
Don't claim to be much of an expert, besides not being an american I don't view as actions taken to defend American interests as being of themselves intrinsically right so any comment would be taken as being anti-american, I suspect most Americans would be appalled at what was done on their name.
I am just as angry at the 'social justice crowd'. Folks like Representative Barney Frank, (D) Massachusetts. These clowns promoted this bizarre concept that everybody was entitled to own a house. Pushing the two federal banks, Fannie Mae The Federal National Mortgage Association and Freddie Mac The Federal National Mortgage Association to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. Open the door to what anybody should expect, flat out corruption.
One didn't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see the housing market was overdue to a crash. But then, far be it to hear that from the 'social justice crowd'. As long as people were happy in homes they could never hope to afford.
What is pathetic about the whole thing is we copied some of the insane economic policies put in place by a supposedly socialist party:-5:-5:-5 I detest tony blair even more than thatcher..
Do a search under ninja loans with the date 1999 or 2000, they were predicting the collapse right from the very beginning, those that got rich knew exactly what they were doing..
Waste of space? I couldn't find a transcript of the speech, but somehow I don't believe he would say such a thing.
He didn't say that the words are mine, essentially that is what he meant IMO, the undeserving poor, the great unwashed masses, the hoi-polloi the plebs who every now and then have to reach up and grab the ruling class by their balls. Social justice, freedom and equality is forced from below not handed down freely by government.
Don't know who I would vote for if I was an american glad I don't have a say in the matter. It's like watching someone arguing over who has the best deck chair on the titanic.
the unions have been emasculated in the states now the political parties can just get fun ding from the rich or biog corporations. If you think it wrong for the unions to seek political power why do you think it OK for big corporations to seek power? If you do that is.
Social justice. hmm
How about just leave me alone and not pick my pocket.
Who knows some day you might be on welfare if you happen to lose your job or ability to earn.
Movies aside, I never considered the range wars as social justice. A fight between two interests. Both political and physical. Yup, there were a lot more farmers, or people wanting to homestead. That equals more votes than ranchers could ever hope to equal. Definitely an unequal fight on the political front. Farmers won and wrote the history on that chapter.
The little man fighting for his rights against the powerful who think they can do what they want. Nothing changes just the terminology. Try would be feudal landlords carving out a fiefdom and peasant farmers instead of ranchers and homesteaders
Nobody can take down a government without domestic support. I never fully understood Chile. Nicaragua is a different story, and I would have zero sympathy if somehow the Ortega brothers were killed in their sleep. They were no better than mobsters.
Yes they can, invariably they lose in the long run but the last fifty years is full of examples where governments have been brought down by outsiders.
DN! Nixon and Kissinger Admitted to CIA Assassination Attempt in Chile - YouTube
Salvador Allende - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During the second term of office of Democratic President Bill Clinton, the CIA acknowledged having played a role in Chilean politics prior to the coup, but its degree of involvement is debated. The CIA was notified by its Chilean contacts of the impending coup two days in advance, but contends it "played no direct role in" the coup.[40]
[QUOTE]Much of the internal opposition to Allende's policies came from business sector, and recently-released U.S. government documents confirm that the U.S. indirectly[25] funded the truck drivers' strike,[41] which exacerbated the already chaotic economic situation prior to the coup.
The most prominent U.S. corporations in Chile prior to Allende's presidency were the Anaconda and Kennecott copper companies, and ITT Corporation, International Telephone and Telegraph. Both the copper corporations aimed to expand privatized copper production in the city of El Teniente in the Chilean Andes, the world's largest underground copper mine.[42] At the end of 1968, according to US Department of Commerce data, U.S. corporate holdings in Chile amounted to $964 million. Anaconda and Kennecott accounted for 28% of U.S. holdings, but ITT had by far the largest holding of any single corporation, with an investment of $200 million in Chile.[42] In 1970, before Allende was elected, ITT owned 70% of Chitelco, the Chilean Telephone Company and funded El Mercurio, a Chilean right-wing newspaper. Documents released in 2000 by the CIA confirmed that before the elections of 1970, ITT gave $700,000 to Allende's conservative opponent, Jorge Alessandri, with help from the CIA on how to channel the money safely. ITT president Harold Geneen also offered $1 million to the CIA to help defeat Allende in the elections.[43]
After General Pinochet assumed power, United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told President Richard Nixon that the U.S. "didn't do it," but "we helped them...created the conditions as great as possible." (referring to the coup itself).[44] Recent documents declassified under the Clinton administration's Chile Declassification Project show that the United States government and the CIA sought the overthrow of Allende in 1970 immediately before he took office ("Project FUBELT"). Many documents regarding the U.S. intervention in Chile remain classified.
Do some digging, it might surprise you.
I don't pay all that much attention to South America. So I'll take your word on that.
Don't claim to be much of an expert, besides not being an american I don't view as actions taken to defend American interests as being of themselves intrinsically right so any comment would be taken as being anti-american, I suspect most Americans would be appalled at what was done on their name.
I am just as angry at the 'social justice crowd'. Folks like Representative Barney Frank, (D) Massachusetts. These clowns promoted this bizarre concept that everybody was entitled to own a house. Pushing the two federal banks, Fannie Mae The Federal National Mortgage Association and Freddie Mac The Federal National Mortgage Association to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. Open the door to what anybody should expect, flat out corruption.
One didn't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see the housing market was overdue to a crash. But then, far be it to hear that from the 'social justice crowd'. As long as people were happy in homes they could never hope to afford.
What is pathetic about the whole thing is we copied some of the insane economic policies put in place by a supposedly socialist party:-5:-5:-5 I detest tony blair even more than thatcher..
Do a search under ninja loans with the date 1999 or 2000, they were predicting the collapse right from the very beginning, those that got rich knew exactly what they were doing..
Waste of space? I couldn't find a transcript of the speech, but somehow I don't believe he would say such a thing.
He didn't say that the words are mine, essentially that is what he meant IMO, the undeserving poor, the great unwashed masses, the hoi-polloi the plebs who every now and then have to reach up and grab the ruling class by their balls. Social justice, freedom and equality is forced from below not handed down freely by government.
Don't know who I would vote for if I was an american glad I don't have a say in the matter. It's like watching someone arguing over who has the best deck chair on the titanic.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1407074 wrote: [QUOTE=tude dog;1407062][QUOTE=gmc;1406797]Don't know enough about his policies to comment. One thing he is not is a socialist in any form. Demanding your government provide basic social welfare is not demanding to be dependant it's asking for social justice - A concept which many americans seem to struggle with despite their long history of seeking just that. (surprising the number of films that are about the little man taking on the big cattle rancher who want to take the land from the homesteader or in one way or another feature the little man against the big corporation. ( have a look at some of john waynes older films of you donl;t believe me) It's as if the history of that struggle has been forgotten.Movies aside, I never considered the range wars as social justice. A fight between two interests. Both political and physical. Yup, there were a lot more farmers, or people wanting to homestead. That equals more votes than ranchers could ever hope to equal. Definitely an unequal fight on the political front. Farmers won and wrote the history on that chapter. [/QUOTE]The little man fighting for his rights against the powerful who think they can do what they want. Nothing changes just the terminology. Try would be feudal landlords carving out a fiefdom and peasant farmers instead of ranchers and homesteaders
Even the myths don't change. Small farms were bought up by big farming corporations building their own fiefdoms, thinking they could do what they want.
Even the myths don't change. Small farms were bought up by big farming corporations building their own fiefdoms, thinking they could do what they want.
vote democrat and go to hell
and how
Walmart Is Going To Sell Monsanto's Genetically Modified Corn And It Won't Be Labeled - Business Insider
Why is it not labelled so consumers can decide? In the UK and europe GM foods were boycotted to the extent many supermarkets took them off the shelf. Creeping back in now.
Walmart Is Going To Sell Monsanto's Genetically Modified Corn And It Won't Be Labeled - Business Insider
Why is it not labelled so consumers can decide? In the UK and europe GM foods were boycotted to the extent many supermarkets took them off the shelf. Creeping back in now.
vote democrat and go to hell
tude dog;1406380 wrote: Same as any other tax exempt organization.
No, it is not. The IRS almost never revokes the tax exempt status of of a church, even when they deliberately and publicly violate the law.
No, it is not. The IRS almost never revokes the tax exempt status of of a church, even when they deliberately and publicly violate the law.
vote democrat and go to hell
Eris;1407525 wrote: No, it is not. The IRS almost never revokes the tax exempt status of of a church, even when they deliberately and publicly violate the law.
Be interesting if they tried it. i would imagine every church would be up in arms claiming a secular attack on freedom of religion or something.
Be interesting if they tried it. i would imagine every church would be up in arms claiming a secular attack on freedom of religion or something.
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1407543 wrote: Be interesting if they tried it. i would imagine every church would be up in arms claiming a secular attack on freedom of religion or something.
It would be worse than that. Witness the cries of persecution each year when someone at a store commits the horrible sin of wishing someone "happy holidays." I think we could expect pundits and headlines proclaiming the IRS war on Christians.
It would be worse than that. Witness the cries of persecution each year when someone at a store commits the horrible sin of wishing someone "happy holidays." I think we could expect pundits and headlines proclaiming the IRS war on Christians.
vote democrat and go to hell
Well looks like you have at least one presidential candidate that is going to impose his religious beliefs about contraception and abortion on the nation if elected. Should be fun.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
vote democrat and go to hell
gmc;1407590 wrote: Well looks like you have at least one presidential candidate that is going to impose his religious beliefs about contraception and abortion on the nation if elected. Should be fun.
Despite Congress letting the last two presidents run amok, the president is not king. Imposing religious beliefs about contraception and abortion on the nation is a job expressly delegated to the legislative branch, of which the President is not a member.
Despite Congress letting the last two presidents run amok, the president is not king. Imposing religious beliefs about contraception and abortion on the nation is a job expressly delegated to the legislative branch, of which the President is not a member.
vote democrat and go to hell
Accountable;1407593 wrote: Despite Congress letting the last two presidents run amok, the president is not king. Imposing religious beliefs about contraception and abortion on the nation is a job expressly delegated to the legislative branch, of which the President is not a member.
I bow to your superior knowledge of your constitution.
Romney: States Should Be Able to Ban Birth Control - YouTube
Paul Ryan Working To Ban The Most Popular Forms Of Birth Control In The United States - YouTube
He does seem quite keen on the idea though.
I bow to your superior knowledge of your constitution.
Romney: States Should Be Able to Ban Birth Control - YouTube
Paul Ryan Working To Ban The Most Popular Forms Of Birth Control In The United States - YouTube
He does seem quite keen on the idea though.
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Accountable
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vote democrat and go to hell
And Ron Paul tried for 20 years to return us to the gold standard. That didn't work, either.
vote democrat and go to hell
Obama is not the anti christ, satan is the anti christ; and any human being used by him is just a puppet of him.
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Singh-Song
- Posts: 119
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vote democrat and go to hell
Mickiel;1445923 wrote: Obama is not the anti christ, satan is the anti christ; and any human being used by him is just a puppet of him.
So- you're saying that Obama is the puppet of Satan the Anti Christ? Right... :yh_whistl:
So- you're saying that Obama is the puppet of Satan the Anti Christ? Right... :yh_whistl:
vote democrat and go to hell
Singh-Song;1445925 wrote: So- you're saying that Obama is the puppet of Satan the Anti Christ? Right... :yh_whistl:
Yes; him and any other president you wish to name; and in my view, none of them are excluded. They all are puppets of satan and God. We are no match for spirit beings. All of humanity are puppets; were just like babies to them. Even less than babies.
Yes; him and any other president you wish to name; and in my view, none of them are excluded. They all are puppets of satan and God. We are no match for spirit beings. All of humanity are puppets; were just like babies to them. Even less than babies.
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Singh-Song
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:49 pm
vote democrat and go to hell
Mickiel;1445927 wrote: Yes; him and any other president you wish to name; and in my view, none of them are excluded. They all are puppets of satan and God. We are no match for spirit beings. All of humanity are puppets; were just like babies to them. Even less than babies.
So why was this thread specifically about the Democrats? Surely a Republican president would be a puppet of the Antichrist in exactly the same way? And if all of humanity are puppets, which one are you a puppet of- Satan, or God? Or a bit of both?
So why was this thread specifically about the Democrats? Surely a Republican president would be a puppet of the Antichrist in exactly the same way? And if all of humanity are puppets, which one are you a puppet of- Satan, or God? Or a bit of both?
vote democrat and go to hell
Singh-Song;1445929 wrote: So why was this thread specifically about the Democrats? Surely a Republican president would be a puppet of the Antichrist in exactly the same way? And if all of humanity are puppets, which one are you a puppet of- Satan, or God? Or a bit of both?
I don't know why this thread is about democrats. And I think I am a bit of both, yes. With more lean in the darkness.
I don't know why this thread is about democrats. And I think I am a bit of both, yes. With more lean in the darkness.
vote democrat and go to hell
I have long said that science began as a search for the divine; a search for God was the origin of science; the original motivation for it.
And that is all in history.
And that is all in history.
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Singh-Song
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vote democrat and go to hell
Mickiel;1445936 wrote: I have long said that science began as a search for the divine; a search for God was the origin of science; the original motivation for it.
And that is all in history.
Perhaps this comment would be better placed in the 'Science Proves God' thread, or could form the basis of a new one?
And that is all in history.
Perhaps this comment would be better placed in the 'Science Proves God' thread, or could form the basis of a new one?
vote democrat and go to hell
Singh-Song;1445943 wrote: Perhaps this comment would be better placed in the 'Science Proves God' thread, or could form the basis of a new one?
Sure it can fit in that thread; but my goodness, don't suggest that I start another thread, you may be blacklisted by many here.
Sure it can fit in that thread; but my goodness, don't suggest that I start another thread, you may be blacklisted by many here.
vote democrat and go to hell
Mickiel;1445930 wrote: I don't know why this thread is about democrats...
I am sure that reading the OP (OP refers to either the Original Post, or the original Poster - author of the thread) would give the answer to that question.
I am sure that reading the OP (OP refers to either the Original Post, or the original Poster - author of the thread) would give the answer to that question.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
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Singh-Song
- Posts: 119
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vote democrat and go to hell
LarsMac;1445959 wrote: I am sure that reading the OP (OP refers to either the Original Post, or the original Poster - author of the thread) would give the answer to that question.
Ah, I see. Well, that Bishop certainly has a screw or two loose... So, who was he telling people to vote for instead? The Republicans, or the Tea Party?
Ah, I see. Well, that Bishop certainly has a screw or two loose... So, who was he telling people to vote for instead? The Republicans, or the Tea Party?
vote democrat and go to hell
Singh-Song;1445979 wrote: Ah, I see. Well, that Bishop certainly has a screw or two loose... So, who was he telling people to vote for instead? The Republicans, or the Tea Party?
He was not, as he stated, telling people who to vote for, but just warning them of their risk of damnation should they choose to vote for a candidate that was in favor of things that the Church has labeled as bad, like abortion and birth control.
So, I can see a lot of Catholics going to confession after election day.
hmmm.
He was not, as he stated, telling people who to vote for, but just warning them of their risk of damnation should they choose to vote for a candidate that was in favor of things that the Church has labeled as bad, like abortion and birth control.
So, I can see a lot of Catholics going to confession after election day.
hmmm.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence