Sad? Wonderful? i'm not sure yet..

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:51 am

Sad? Wonderful? i'm not sure yet..

I'm talking about an article I read today.

David (86) and Willemke (84) had been married for 61 years. They got to the point of needing to go in to a nursing home.. Terrified of this happening they chose to end their life, together.

In november they picked a date to commit suicide.

Their 4 sons knew of their plans.

They said their goodbyes to everybody.. Got 2 bowls of yoghurt, mashed up loads of medication, mixed it in to the yoghurt and ate it.

Lied down on the bed together, and as they lay there, they waved at their 4 sons standing near them. (sons aged 50 - 60 ). And slowly fell asleep.

The funeral was held today.

In a way I feel a bit sad.. that they were so terrified of the idea of soon needing to go in to a nursing home and thought their only was out was suicide.

On the other hand, how wonderful.. they died together, in eachothers arms, slowly falling asleep. No pain, no rotting away in a bed somewhere, but together in their own home.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:26 pm

It's sad that elderly people are terrified of going to a nursing home. Nursing homes do have a bad reputation. And that's sad. JMO

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:03 pm

It's sad but I can see that the most important thing for them was the quality of life they had together. That 61 years together meant so much, their only option was to ensure they spent forever together.

As sad as that is I can understand that and their children clearly understood that too

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:17 pm

It might sound weird but its almost heartwarming that even after a good 61 years, they couldn't bear to be apart.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:19 pm

Wonderful, just like Haley in Coronation Street, leave with all your faculties intact. I'd do it that way too.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:30 am

I think it's a great idea. They knew it was time to go and they did it the way they wanted to... together and without pain. I'd rather watch a parent choose to go out this way than to linger while they slowly lose their quality of life.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:08 am

As a chain smoker, I regually hear people telling me they will take 10 years off my life...

Well, It won't be my first 10 years or my middle 10 years, It'll be my last.

If they are the years I will be In a nursing home doped to the eyeballs to keep me quiet, while I s.hit my pants and dribble Into my lap..... pass me another cigg someone !!!

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:03 am

Snooz;1446766 wrote: I think it's a great idea. They knew it was time to go and they did it the way they wanted to... together and without pain. I'd rather watch a parent choose to go out this way than to linger while they slowly lose their quality of life.

I must say, they have 4 wonferful sons, who knew about their plan, "watched" them go in peace, and just accepted their wishes instead of trying to stop them

oscar;1446770 wrote: As a chain smoker, I regually hear people telling me they will take 10 years off my life...

Well, It won't be my first 10 years or my middle 10 years, It'll be my last.

If they are the years I will be In a nursing home doped to the eyeballs to keep me quiet, while I s.hit my pants and dribble Into my lap..... pass me another cigg someone !!!

mm.. I'd give you a cig in that case! I got a hell of a talk from the doc at the hosptial last week.. I just rolled my eyes.

Anyway.. When my OH's grandad was on his way out (heart & sugar probs) the doc told him he was not to eat those 2-4 salty liquorice a day..

He did anyway, and we didn't stop him.. For god sake the guy was 83, on his way out, his wife died like 2 years prior, and he was getting to the point of pooping himself.

I remember going there on the sunday, after he'd been like dying for days, suddenly he was all awake and happy. He told me he had cauliflower for dinner, followed by: "en ik heb scheten hey!" (took a giant s.hit cause of it!).. He was all happy, then he said: Cornelia (his wife), put the kettle on, I coming honey.

The next day, he was basically already gone, but the nurses kept letting the morphine wear off till he was waking up and in pain again.. His daughter demanded that they dose him up on morphine, every time, to keep him comfortable and not wait for him to be in chronic pain till they'd give him the next dose.

He died tuesday, 9am.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:10 am

And Cornelia (my OH's grandma) was a funny lady.

She went in to hospital on sunday.. (emphysema). Stayed there for a few days.. but couldn't stand not being able to smoke.

Went outside, asked one of the taxi drivers for a cig..

She sort of thought, bollocks if i'm gonna die, I might as well have a cig. I don't blame her!

She died that thursday, 9 pm.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:13 am

At the end, my Father was full of cancer. With days to live In the cancer hospice, he said he really fancied an Indian Vindaloo Curry. The nurse said ' oh I don't think that's advisable'... we said, ' are you having a laugh? He'll have what he damn well likes'

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:20 am

oscar;1446775 wrote: At the end, my Father was full of cancer. With days to live In the cancer hospice, he said he really fancied an Indian Vindaloo Curry. The nurse said ' oh I don't think that's advisable'... we said, ' are you having a laugh? He'll have what he damn well likes'

I find that so strange, if you have days to go, or docs have told you that you don't have long, enjoy the time you have and do/eat what you want.. Why let the nurses/docs tell you off for doing so.. I hope your dad enjoyed that Vindaloo!

Someone I worked with also had cancer, they told him he had 3 months to live. When he requested a cig, they told him he couldn't because it might...... he said: might do what, you just told me I only had 3 months left! now give me that cig!

He survived, he's on constant morphine though, I don't work with him anymore, he found a job elsewhere.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:26 am

Chloe_88;1446776 wrote: I find that so strange, if you have days to go, or docs have told you that you don't have long, enjoy the time you have and do/eat what you want.. Why let the nurses/docs tell you off for doing so.. I hope your dad enjoyed that Vindaloo!

Someone I worked with also had cancer, they told him he had 3 months to live. When he requested a cig, they told him he couldn't because it might...... he said: might do what, you just told me I only had 3 months left! now give me that cig!

He survived, he's on constant morphine though, I don't work with him anymore, he found a job elsewhere. My husband has started smoking again...He has only one lung now and that's full of holes. He accepts nothing Is going to save him and the end Is nigh so his attitude Is, he'll smoke, drink and eat what he likes while his Doctors give him endless grief over It. Why spend your last year stressed out over what you can't have If you can't be saved? I think It should be solely up to the patient and others should respect their wishes.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:29 am

oscar;1446777 wrote: My husband has started smoking again...He has only one lung now and that's full of holes. He accepts nothing Is going to save him and the end Is nigh so his attitude Is, he'll smoke, drink and eat what he likes while his Doctors give him endless grief over It.

Go Peter!

oscar;1446777 wrote: Why spend your last year stressed out over what you can't have If you can't be saved? I think It should be solely up to the patient and others should respect their wishes.

I agree!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:05 am

I don't understand. They had 4 sons and not one of them could look after their parents?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:28 am

fuzzywuzzy;1446788 wrote: I don't understand. They had 4 sons and not one of them could look after their parents? Yeah I noticed that also.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:33 am

A lot would depend in the conditions that led to their need for nursing home. And of course the fear of one being left behind when the other passed first.

I have seen several cases of well-meaning children trying to care for aging parents and not being up to the task.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:16 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1446788 wrote: I don't understand. They had 4 sons and not one of them could look after their parents?

It wouldn't have been them but more probably the wives. It's easy to be judgmental but you know nothing about their circumstances, whether they had houses big enough, what about the effect on their children of someone needing constant care living in the house. Would they have had to give up their jobs and if so how would they support themselves? Nursing somebody 24hours a day is not as simple as it sounds. Wait until you find yourself faced with similar choices before you leap to judgement.

At least the Netherlands let's people decide for themselves in the UK the sons might have found themselves on trial for assisting them.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Wonderful that they loved each other enough to face even death together.:-4

Sad that suicides go to Hell for wasting God's greatest gift.:-1

But yeah, I guess they're still together....:-3

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:31 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1446788 wrote: I don't understand. They had 4 sons and not one of them could look after their parents?

And my mum has three children, her two daughters would have her come live with her if need be but she won't have any of it. Just like her mother before her had three daughters who all offered to have her come live with them, no way was the answer she couldn't choose any one daughter over another and my mum is of the same opinion. She'd rather pay and have someone deal with her personal care than have one of her own dealing with it. Mum's body is failing her now and she needs more and more help, she hates the idea of full nursing care and not knowing who she is or where she is, she'd rather go before that happens. As would I.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:22 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1446788 wrote: I don't understand. They had 4 sons and not one of them could look after their parents?

I understand. Just to busy. Let the old folk hurry along to the happy hunting grounds.

My mom is more than me and my siblings can care for at our homes. that doesn't mean we can't visit, write, phone. Take her shopping.

I am just astonished anyone would view suicide as loving, beautiful or whatever, as opposed to a failure.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:23 am

The article doesn't mention if the sons had already been helping out. It did say the wife had to deal with some illnesses for quite some time, and now the husband was too. The article said that their only option was to go in to a nursing home. Maybe the sons had health issues, maybe mum & dad didn't want them caring for them, maybe the sons couldn't cope. The article doesn't mention it.

To be honest I have watched people die who had debilitating illnesses, on morphine for weeks, months, just sitting there like a sack of bones, s.hitting themselves. To be honest, if thats how people would rather go, be my guest. This couple just went when they were ready.

I remember a yound man (friend of my colleague). He had cancer at 15. In his twenties he was cleared. Just round about the age of 30, the cancer had struck back, everywhere in his body, internal organs, skin, brain.. everywhere.

Now, he had a huge party, smoked weed, drank beer etc.

By his own choice, the next day the doctor gave him a lethal injection and he was gone.

He ordered his friends (unless they were driving) to smoke a joint at the funeral and to get a reef filled with joints too.

It was his final wish, so they did.

Now I think that that situation and the situation of this couple is quite understandable. To be honest, I think I can say that. I have had 3 family members commit suicide, now they were quite young (between 21- 50) and had no physical illnesses. In these cases I can't understand why they did it.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:20 pm

Saint_;1446830 wrote: Sad that suicides go to Hell for wasting God's greatest gift.:-1

I'm sorry but I find that disrespectful to the dead. A simple: I don't agree with suicide or a I don't agree with suicide because of my religion would have been fine. Saying they have gone to hell is disrespectful to the dead.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:04 pm

I can't fault anyone for taking control of their end of life situation. I can think of several situations in which I would make the same decision.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:06 pm

Wandrin;1446911 wrote: I can't fault anyone for taking control of their end of life situation. I can think of several situations in which I would make the same decision.

That is a nice way of putting it.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:40 pm

Nursing homes are terrible places, I've seen and heard enough to know. It's makes me sad because according to my Christians beliefs suicide is a sin, and it's a shame they felt that was their only way out. My question is, where were their kids? They had 4 sons? I know a lot of people around here who are taking care of their folks at home because they don't want to put them in one of those places.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:48 pm

What kind of a loving, caring god would want his children to suffer in great pain? He gave us free choice, this is a perfect example of using it.

Burning in hell my ass.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:53 pm

It goes along with the sin of murder, you are not supposed to kill, that includes yourself, it's self-murder.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Chloe_88;1446904 wrote: I'm sorry but I find that disrespectful to the dead. A simple: I don't agree with suicide or a I don't agree with suicide because of my religion would have been fine. Saying they have gone to hell is disrespectful to the dead.

Eh, that's your opinion based on your beliefs. My religion expects me to spread the word of those beliefs, specifically that suicides go to Hell. It's a reminder to myself as much as to anyone else. But I expected to be flamed by the less tolerant people here. Thanks.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:06 pm

Well I've always thought the problem was that suicide was so sudden that you had no chance to ask God to forgive you after you did it, but this couple didn't die suddenly, so how do we know that they didn't have a chance to ask God to forgive them for what they were doing? So you can't say that they are in hell.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:30 pm

Hope6;1446915 wrote: Nursing homes are terrible places, I've seen and heard enough to know. It's makes me sad because according to my Christians beliefs suicide is a sin, and it's a shame they felt that was their only way out. My question is, where were their kids? They had 4 sons? I know a lot of people around here who are taking care of their folks at home because they don't want to put them in one of those places.

I think the thing with the sons Is the state of mind of the parents at the time.

As as an example, my Father died and my Mother just gave up. They too had been married for over 60 years. To cut a very long story short, there was nothing my late sister and brothers, even grandchildren could do to cajole her Into looking forward. She was absolutely adamant that she wanted to be with my Father. She started having accidents around the house and her social worker believed she was falling deliberately.

We used to get so frustrated with her, telling her every day that she had so much to live for.

Then she had a massive stroke and In all honesty, I wish It had killed her outright. But she lingered for 16 weeks, paralysed and unable to speak. She'd sit there with tears running down her face.

Again, we tried to cajole her but she slipped Into dreadful depression. The hospital then transffered her to a nursing home. At the time, I had a large detatched bungalow and really wanted to care for her at my home but It was Impossible as It was for my sister and brothers. We all had mortgages and worked full time and she would have needed a huge amount of equipment such as winches for me to care for her. I would have had to hire a nurse while we were at work. It broke my heart, well, It did all of us, having to abandon her In that nursing home and It's something I still have nightmares over and feel guilty for.

The nursing home on the surface had good reviews and certainly wasn't cheap. They couldn't wait for her house to be sold so they got paid and didn't even give us time to adjust.

One night I went In to see her and the nursing sister took me to one side saying she wanted to speak to me before I saw her. She warned me my Mum had, had " a bit of a fall " that day. I walked In her room and nearly passed out. Her face was black and her head cut open. Nursing staff had left her alone on a toilet and paralysed, she'd slipped off. To say I went mental Is an understatement. They tried fobbing us off with all sorts of excuses over the next week and It's fair to say we caused them serious grief over It. Frightened they were about to be sued, they wavered her fee's but It wasn't about that.

In the meantime, we desperately looked for a transfer to another nursing home but the red tape with her social worker just hindered us every day.

I can honestly say, I was happy and relieved when she died 10 days later surrounded by all her family. At last we knew she had got what she wanted... to be with our Dad.... and that's why... my husband Is never, never, ever going into a nursing home.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:39 pm

Oh Oscar I feel so much for all of you. I have said my mother is never going to a nursing home either. We have nurses that you can hire to come to your home and stay with someone, if I have to I will do something like that. I know a neighbor lady here went to a nursing home, she is 98. Her son has a private sitter hired to go over and check on her every day. The sitter had to miss about 14 days due to an illness in the family. One morning during that time the 98 year old lady told one of the nurses that she didn't want to get up right away that morning, the nurse grabbed her by the wrist and drug her out of the bed, over the top of the railings and everything. She was cut up and bruised and when the sitter came back, they told her she had fallen out of the bed.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:50 pm

Hope6;1446932 wrote: Oh Oscar I feel so much for all of you. I have said my mother is never going to a nursing home either. We have nurses that you can hire to come to your home and stay with someone, if I have to I will do something like that. I know a neighbor lady here went to a nursing home, she is 98. Her son has a private sitter hired to go over and check on her every day. The sitter had to miss about 14 days due to an illness in the family. One morning during that time the 98 year old lady told one of the nurses that she didn't want to get up right away that morning, the nurse grabbed her by the wrist and drug her out of the bed, over the top of the railings and everything. She was cut up and bruised and when the sitter came back, they told her she had fallen out of the bed. That's assault !!!

Would have loved this tomb for my Mum and Dad.

Click on pic to enlarge

Attached files

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 pm

I guess I should mention that my mother died of Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS). When the time came that she was completely unable to control her body, she opted for assisted suicide by thirst. They cut you off from water, but give you pretty unlimited morphine. It took her two days to die. But it didn't seem too painful and was certainly preferable to being kept alive by machines, trapped in the tomb of your own body, clear of mind but unable to interact or communicate with anyone in any way. What horror that would have been.

Did she go to Hell? My teachings (mostly from her) say yes. Although I fail to see how a person as good as she was all her life could do so. Obviously, I am less than objective on this topic.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:58 am

oscar;1446929 wrote: I think the thing with the sons Is the state of mind of the parents at the time.

As as an example, my Father died and my Mother just gave up. They too had been married for over 60 years. To cut a very long story short, there was nothing my late sister and brothers, even grandchildren could do to cajole her Into looking forward. She was absolutely adamant that she wanted to be with my Father. She started having accidents around the house and her social worker believed she was falling deliberately.

We used to get so frustrated with her, telling her every day that she had so much to live for.

Then she had a massive stroke and In all honesty, I wish It had killed her outright. But she lingered for 16 weeks, paralysed and unable to speak. She'd sit there with tears running down her face.

Again, we tried to cajole her but she slipped Into dreadful depression. The hospital then transffered her to a nursing home. At the time, I had a large detatched bungalow and really wanted to care for her at my home but It was Impossible as It was for my sister and brothers. We all had mortgages and worked full time and she would have needed a huge amount of equipment such as winches for me to care for her. I would have had to hire a nurse while we were at work. It broke my heart, well, It did all of us, having to abandon her In that nursing home and It's something I still have nightmares over and feel guilty for.

The nursing home on the surface had good reviews and certainly wasn't cheap. They couldn't wait for her house to be sold so they got paid and didn't even give us time to adjust.

One night I went In to see her and the nursing sister took me to one side saying she wanted to speak to me before I saw her. She warned me my Mum had, had " a bit of a fall " that day. I walked In her room and nearly passed out. Her face was black and her head cut open. Nursing staff had left her alone on a toilet and paralysed, she'd slipped off. To say I went mental Is an understatement. They tried fobbing us off with all sorts of excuses over the next week and It's fair to say we caused them serious grief over It. Frightened they were about to be sued, they wavered her fee's but It wasn't about that.

In the meantime, we desperately looked for a transfer to another nursing home but the red tape with her social worker just hindered us every day.

I can honestly say, I was happy and relieved when she died 10 days later surrounded by all her family. At last we knew she had got what she wanted... to be with our Dad.... and that's why... my husband Is never, never, ever going into a nursing home.

How terrible Oscar with the nursing home and all. Sad but understandable that your mum gave up after your dad passed away.

It is nice to know that she got what she wanted in the end, to be with your dad again.

I think this is what the couple in the article wanted to prevent.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:07 am

Saint_;1446922 wrote: Eh, that's your opinion based on your beliefs. My religion expects me to spread the word of those beliefs, specifically that suicides go to Hell. It's a reminder to myself as much as to anyone else. But I expected to be flamed by the less tolerant people here. Thanks.

I don't believe in a god or any of the such. I believe in respect. Believe in whatever you want but it could have been said in a more appropriate manner.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:09 am

oscar;1446934 wrote: Would have loved this tomb for my Mum and Dad.

Click on pic to enlarge

The design of this tomb is lovely!

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:17 am

Saint_;1446941 wrote:

Did she go to Hell? My teachings (mostly from her) say yes. Although I fail to see how a person as good as she was all her life could do so. Obviously, I am less than objective on this topic.

I don't believe there can be much in the way of objectivity on this subject.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:56 am

Chloe_88;1446967 wrote: How terrible Oscar with the nursing home and all. Sad but understandable that your mum gave up after your dad passed away.

It is nice to know that she got what she wanted in the end, to be with your dad again.

I think this is what the couple in the article wanted to prevent. When my Mum died, my Father's remains had already been cremated. He'd actually willed his body to medical science In cancer research. It's what he wanted to do. Through his treatment, It broke his heart to see the children suffering on the cancer wards. When we got his remains back, he was cremated and they were buried In my home town churchyard. So when Mum died, her remains were buried on top of him. When we had her details added to the tombstone, we added one word at the bottom..... ' Reunited'.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:49 pm

oscar;1446995 wrote: When we got his remains back, he was cremated and they were buried In my home town churchyard. So when Mum died, her remains were buried on top of him. When we had her details added to the tombstone, we added one word at the bottom..... ' Reunited'.

Very moving .. "Reunited" was the word for this ..

My grandad is still sitting in the drawer in England :-5 (since 2007)

He always just appeared alone, for a "short" (3 month) holiday over here in Holland. my grandma would phone us and ask if he was in Holland again.. he never said when he was leaving or coming over.. He spent so much time on the ferry going back and forth. He loved it!

One of my aunts and my dad said, we would secretly scatter him off the back of the ferry somehow..

My other aunt suddenly did the boo hoo, couldn't let go etc. she now refuses to get her passport renewed...

Now they have said that they'll wait till my grandma dies, and scatter them in a field/park or somewhere.. Somewhere they never went, hadn't anything to do with..

I don't agree with that, he should be scatterd where he loved to be the most, on the ferry! But i'll take a backseat on this one, seen as it isn't my dad we're talking about..

Eventhough my grandad was and still is one of the most important people in my life.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:23 pm

Saint_;1446941 wrote: I guess I should mention that my mother died of Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS). When the time came that she was completely unable to control her body, she opted for assisted suicide by thirst. They cut you off from water, but give you pretty unlimited morphine. It took her two days to die. But it didn't seem too painful and was certainly preferable to being kept alive by machines, trapped in the tomb of your own body, clear of mind but unable to interact or communicate with anyone in any way. What horror that would have been.

Did she go to Hell? My teachings (mostly from her) say yes. Although I fail to see how a person as good as she was all her life could do so. Obviously, I am less than objective on this topic.

OH FFS!!!!!!

Any person who is so full of mind numbing political or religious doctrine that they have stopped being a human being comes under the banner of "Callous mongrel barstard who was just following orders robot..