Modern Feminism or Old-Fashioned War on Men?

[A Karenina]

Bill posted some fascinating thoughts under the Peterson verdict thread in regards to the Violence Against the Unborn Act. I thought I'd continue some of that in a new thread.



Bill stated that when he ran a Google search, he found a great deal of hysteria that the Act would outlaw abortions. It would be the end of women's rights as we know it.



I'm a woman. I'm a divorced independent woman. I've already seen my share of the wage gap, the double standard, and so on. I'm sure I'll see more of it before I'm through, too.



Even so, I'm sick to death of the hysteria, the anger, the unreasonable approach. To me, regardless of their "feminist" disguise, it's just another form of the very thing they purport to be fighting - prejudice against the opposite sex.



It makes me angry! There are some very real problems between the sexes, but we can't address those because we're too busy screeching every time a headline is printed.



In all honesty, I don't think that a lot of men even realize what they do.



(This is a small example, but will serve to illustrate my point.)

When I walk down the street in my conservative business clothes, many men feel free to look over my body. It makes me very uncomfortable - I'm not a racehorse on the purchase block, nor am I wearing cellophane with a price tag a la supermarket meat. (grrrr)

There are some men who realize what they're doing and they flat out don't care. But I think there are lots of men who are completely unaware of their behavior...I used to snap at them, but these days I've been trying a new approach. I ask if they have daughters. More often than not, they look embarrassed but more importantly, they quit scanning my body.



There are lots of things that men seem peripherally aware of including the wage gap, the higher prices women pay for the same services, the lack of opportunities men take for granted like professional sports, and the statistics of violence against women. But I don't think they really know how common these things are, or consider the impact of it.



How can we make men aware of this when all they've head about women's rights and equality is the bizarre antics of our "leading feminists"? They say things that make me cringe in sheer embarrassment, like "all sex in America is rape" - what is that all about? They target very stupid areas to "equalize" like trying to take away men's clubs because women should play there, too.



The unfounded hysteria against the Violence Against the Unborn Act is just one more disgusting needless waste. I'm solidly pro-choice, but I see no danger to women in the act. In fact, I'm rather optimistic that it might cut back on the high rates of domestic violence, as well as violence towards women from strangers.



I have never liked Freud's comment, but I have to alter his quote a bit here and ask, "What do these women want?"



What are your thoughts? I'd really love to hear male and female perspectives. Thanks

[Clint]

A Karenina wrote:

In all honesty, I don't think that a lot of men even realize what they do.



(This is a small example, but will serve to illustrate my point.)

When I walk down the street in my conservative business clothes, many men feel free to look over my body. It makes me very uncomfortable - I'm not a racehorse on the purchase block, nor am I wearing cellophane with a price tag a la supermarket meat. (grrrr)

There are some men who realize what they're doing and they flat out don't care. But I think there are lots of men who are completely unaware of their behavior...I used to snap at them, but these days I've been trying a new approach. I ask if they have daughters. More often than not, they look embarrassed but more importantly, they quit scanning my body.


I haven’t had any women look me over lately. I’m a pretty conservative and some might say straight laced guy but I think I would be flattered. I think that is an issue for the one being looked at as well as the one looking. There is no doubt a line that can be crossed by the looker…in particular the overt looker.

I had to go to my female boss once and ask that she and one of the other women employees cover up a little more. I’m wired 100% male and there are two things male eyes are drawn to in spite of efforts to pretend they don’t exist. I got tired of looking at the ceiling or floor when I was talking to them (the women). Both of these women were out to overcome their male counterparts.

One of them belonged to an organization called “Professional Women’s……something” I asked if a man could join. I was told I couldn’t. I asked what it was all about and I was told it was so women could support each other professionally. I said, “something like Kiwanis and Rotary used to be?” and the answer was “yes”. The women could do it but the men couldn’t.

You have opened a very interesting subject. This is one that needs to be discussed openly and thoroughly. Men have made some mistakes and some women have suffered unfairly but as you point out so well, it isn’t what it’s being made out to be.

[Bill Sikes]

A Karenina wrote: ... I'm sick to death of the hysteria, the anger, the unreasonable approach. To me, regardless of their "feminist" disguise, it's just another form of the very thing they purport to be fighting - prejudice against the opposite sex.


Yup.... IMO equality means just what it says - or should do. Unfortunately this does not seem to be the case re. sex equality, or race equality (there are other examples), where there are a number of reactionaries as well as people who carry things on too far.



A Karenina wrote: In all honesty, I don't think that a lot of men even realize what they do.



(This is a small example, but will serve to illustrate my point.)

When I walk down the street in my conservative business clothes, many men feel free to look over my body. It makes me very uncomfortable - I'm not a racehorse on the purchase block, nor am I wearing cellophane with a price tag a la supermarket meat. (grrrr)

There are some men who realize what they're doing and they flat out don't care. But I think there are lots of men who are completely unaware of their behavior...I used to snap at them, but these days I've been trying a new approach. I ask if they have daughters. More often than not, they look embarrassed but more importantly, they quit scanning my body.


Perhaps you have a particularly nice one.... jpeg??



{{{ SMILEY JUST IN CASE }}}



It seems to me just rude to do this sort of thing, at least when it's noticable.



A Karenina wrote: There are lots of things that men seem peripherally aware of including the wage gap,


I wonder whether the difference is more pronounced where you are? I don't know. With regard to comparable jobs here, I have not seen this very much in evidence. Factory workers, for instance, have equality of pay, as do high-flying financial people, lawyers, etc. This does not mean that there are equal numbers of the sexes in all jobs, though!!

A Karenina wrote: the higher prices women pay for the same services,


Erm, for instance? Is it a social sort of thing?



A Karenina wrote: the lack of opportunities men take for granted like professional sports, and the statistics of violence against women. But I don't think they really know how common these things are, or consider the impact of it.




I think (sports) that's a thing that depends on the audience - no audience, no market. Women's sport is growing, however. Football especially, in the UK. However, to go back a bit, there's an event here yearly at Wimbledon, where they play lawn tennis. I know that women watch these chaps playing, and that many think "Cor!" and cast their eyes over thes bloke's bodies. The same for blokes and women's tennis. I suppose they've got to have something to look at, it's a bit dull, really . Is it wrong? What will happen when women's sport is as followed as men's (if it will be).



A Karenina wrote: How can we make men aware of this when all they've head about women's rights and equality is the bizarre antics of our "leading feminists"? They say things that make me cringe in sheer embarrassment, like "all sex in America is rape" - what is that all about? They target very stupid areas to "equalize" like trying to take away men's clubs because women should play there, too.


All??? Extraordinary. That really is a stupid thing to say!! I almost ROFL. Perhaps they've had only one very bad experience, each?

WRT men-only and women-only clubs - I can't see a problem with this, as long as both sexes have the opportunity to form exclusive clubs - which I think is actually already the case!



A Karenina wrote: The unfounded hysteria against the Violence Against the Unborn Act is just one more disgusting needless waste. I'm solidly pro-choice, but I see no danger to women in the act. In fact, I'm rather optimistic that it might cut back on the high rates of domestic violence, as well as violence towards women from strangers.



I have never liked Freud's comment, but I have to alter his quote a bit here and ask, "What do these women want?"



What are your thoughts? I'd really love to hear male and female perspectives. Thanks


Hopefully the new Act will address these sorts of thing - but violence should not be tolerated or condoned in the first place.

There's a lot of inequality and nastiness about - I think we should be *gently* trying to remedy this, and it will take time for ingrained social attitudes to work out of the system - We've already got plenty of legal and social mores which can and should be applied to many unacceptable extremes. Do we need more big sticks to alter the situation, or would that just worsten it?

[greydeadhead]

Much of what you say is true AK, but as long as the "extreme feminists" continue to garner the spotlight there is not much you are going to be able to do about it. Case in point; women being admitted to Augusta national GC (site of the Master Golf Championship).. this is a private club that is men only. They take no public monies in support of the course. Should they be forced to admit women to the club?? To turn the tables, should men be allowed to enter a private womans club?? As far as hiring practices go, I recall a case where two men applied to a Hooters restaurant and were told they could not wait tables because they were not women. Personally I think that I would look ridiculous in one of those little outfits, but, the women were the ones knocking down the big money in tips.. not the guy in the back cooking the crappy overpriced wings. Correction of the wage disparity gap is going to require open minded business owners that agree that if a woman is doing the same work at the same level then she should be paid the same.. none of this she is a woman so she doesn't do the same work routine. The whole looking at you problem is never going to go away... it is the way that men are wired. Of course, I have had women do the same to me .. and Brad Pitt I am not. Anyway.. personally I am of the mind that if the woman is doing a man's job as well as he is.. or better than she should be paid for it.. Don't stare it is not polite.. and single sex clubs.. well when men are allowed in Curves and to wait tables at Hooters.. then women can join Augusta National .. equality has to work both ways.. damn.. I hope this rant makes sense... my mind is already on the slopes.. hooooo yeah

[lady cop]

appropos of nothing written so far...i work in a traditionally man's venue, the COPS. we women worked long and hard to prove ourselves in the world of law enforcement, and to gain acceptance. when i was a kid there were NO women LE. now we make the same money, take the same risks, get treated the same, for the most part. there are very few guys in my world today who treat female officers as "less'. perhaps it's the new generation, or the new awareness or new breed of cops knowing which way the wind is blowing. i know this...no male officer patronizes me or does not expect me to carry my weight or fight as hard as he or not back him up. it's really a good thing because we women rise to the occasion every time. but when i was 18 i was told women can't go to the FBI Academy. crippled my ambition. but i made up for it later thanks to the women who fought for our rights.

[Clint]

lady cop wrote: appropos of nothing written so far...i work in a traditionally man's venue, the COPS. we women worked long and hard to prove ourselves in the world of law enforcement, and to gain acceptance. when i was a kid there were NO women LE. now we make the same money, take the same risks, get treated the same, for the most part. there are very few guys in my world today who treat female officers as "less'. perhaps it's the new generation, or the new awareness or new breed of cops knowing which way the wind is blowing. i know this...no male officer patronizes me or does not expect me to carry my weight or fight as hard as he or not back him up. it's really a good thing because we women rise to the occasion every time. but when i was 18 i was told women can't go to the FBI Academy. crippled my ambition. but i made up for it later thanks to the women who fought for our rights.
I’m glad you find yourself in an accepting environment. I don’t think you can compare your situation to that of other women, in other professions. You have passed through a sieve that requires you to have certain strengths, characteristics and even psyche. When your fellow officers look at you they see someone who has proven herself the same way they did. Many women try but few succeed at becoming police officers and firefighters even though the hiring agencies are under a lot of pressure to hire more women.

[Suresh Gupta]

A Karenina wrote: ............When I walk down the street in my conservative business clothes, many men feel free to look over my body. It makes me very uncomfortable - I'm not a racehorse on the purchase block, nor am I wearing cellophane with a price tag a la supermarket meat. (grrrr)......... What are your thoughts? I'd really love to hear male and female perspectives......


Let me share my perspective as a male member of the society. Whenever I see another male looking over a female body in the way you have described I feel embaressed. I feel an urge to take it up with him but restrain myself as it would further embarass the woman. I think it is uncivilized behaviour.

[weeder]

I have worked in male dominated fields all of my life. Started fighting for eqal pay

30 years ago. I conduct myself in such an unconventional manner that it has put me in a position to view male behavior as somewhat of a spectator.

The ogglers? are so ridiculous to me, that they make me laugh and feel pity for them. Their behavior is a disgrace. Because their sence of worth as males is so low.. They need to use this behavior to feel superior. These men are frightened

at the strives women have made in the world to become respected performers

in many of lifes arenas.

I have never regarded myself as anything less than an equal candidate in life

for anything Ive ever wanted to achieve, or accomplish. Being female was never

a factor to me. I would like my outlook to be shared by all females. However, I do have to acknowledge the fact that they do not all share my outlook.

I also have to be honest and say... That although this feminist stance has served me well in business....it has not been too sought after in my personal relationships with men. That makes me sad. Unfortunately, it is in every cell of my body to expect to be treated as an equal human and so I could never ever change.

[A Karenina]

I've been thinking about this after reading the awesome responses here.



Some men look, but then look at your face and wait. It's almost as if they are saying, "Ok, the wrapping is nice." BUt they seem more than willing to see if you have a brain and a sense of humor to go along with it.

Other men look, and look, and have an expression that seems to say, "Ok, I'm ready. Take your clothes off."



Bill, if I sent you a jpeg you'd be mightily disappointed. I'm nothing to gawk at. No offense taken.



To answer some of the questions raised here : I haven't researched the wage gap in at least a year. But last time I looked it was hovering around 30% for white women. The gap increases even more for black and Hispanic women.



Women pay more for services like haircuts and dry cleaning. It could be a white button-up shirt, identical to a man's shirt, but we pay more because the "buttons are on the wrong side".

Car repairs is another ugly area. I have to take my car in next week, and I'm already cringing at the possibilities. Last time I took mine in for a tune-up, I ended up paying over $600 for a new oxygen-intake system, without my permission. I could've fought that, but it takes a lawyer, and frankly I was too much of a wimp to go through all of that.

At one point, I found a car shop owner that checked this out. He would send his wife to another repair shop with a broken car, and see what they would tell her. More often than not, she was told she HAD to have certain repairs that really weren't necessary. (I interviewed him for a paper I was writing - interesting guy).

It could well be true that SOME car shop owners will take advantage of anyone's ignorance and it's not based on sex. But it is an area where women often feel intimidated.



Grey, the private golf course you mentioned was the example I was thinking of. Great minds think alike, eh? LOL. Golf, btw, stands for Gentleman Only, Ladies Forbidden.

I don't see any reason in forcing men to accept women at their private club. Nor do I want men at a private club for women. There are times we just need to hang with our own sex, and there is nothing wrong with that.

If the club was publicly funded, then I could see the problem.



The case you mentioned about men wanting to be Hooters servers is very interesting. I don't see how the company could get away with that legally. Off the topic, I don't eat at Hooters because I'm a mom to the bone, and I'd be trying to get the women there to cover up. LOL



Ladycop and weeder, I'm very grateful to the women who fought so hard to make sure that women could have equal opportunity in work among other things. I know that professional success is much easier for me to earn than it was for my mother. I'm hoping that even more doors will open for our daughters.



I'd like to qualify that, though. I feel that a person should be hired based on skills required for the job, not sex, not race, not anything else. You are both successful because you have those skills. As has already been said, you've proven yourselves. That's what matters.



I'd also like to clarify that I'm not bashing all feminists. Only the reactionary ones, the extremists. And I bash extremists no matter what cause they take up. That's only fair, since they bash me for being moderate.



I don't like to see young girls running around dressing as badly as they do because "they're equal". Or to have sex with anyone because they have the right to a healthy sex drive. A healthy sex drive is very good, and sexual freedom is as well. But does it mean that we should lose our sense of taste or quit being choosy about our partners? Heck no!

Should we also be hearing that we can never really say no to sex, and therefore we can never really say yes...consequently all sex is rape? What a load of rubbish!



There are some very serious concerns that we should be addressing instead. Chlid care for working women - especially single moms is a huge issue. The cost, the safety of such places...it's a big deal. Providing affordable and secure alternatives not only protects our children, but it allows the mother to concentrate fully on her job. It's good business and it's good "humanism" for lack of a better word.



There are also some wonderful successes. For instance, more dads are getting custody of their children. If a wage shouldn't be based on sex, then neither should custody. That would be true equality - so long as the decision is made according to the needs of the children.



Equality works both ways, and some of our most strident voices don't want to see that. JMHO.

[jahamaa]

Karenina, I hope we can be friends but wow are we ever different. It's not that I dismiss the problems of women that you mention it's just that I don't see most of them.

I'm in sales, I charge women the same as I charge men.

Of my last several jobs my bosses were women and earned more than I did.

The women who worked along side me earned the same as the men in the same classification.

As far as men looking at women, well I have to plead quilty here. Truth is I think it's just the way men are wired. Now I'm not condoning bad behavior but the looking, I think. is just us being us.

We're not stupid. I'm an over 50 year old guy, and am well aware that the ladies I'm looking at are in no way going to be interested in me. So why do I look? beats the heck out of me. Lord knows I am not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable and if I think about it I look away but next time an attractive woman goes by I catch myself looking again. Go figure. Maybe it's the same reason we look at hot sports cars we're just attracted to what we know we're never going to have. :-4

[A Karenina]

jahamaa wrote: Karenina, I hope we can be friends but wow are we ever different. That sentence right there shows me we can be friends. I would like that.



jahamaa wrote: It's not that I dismiss the problems of women that you mention it's just that I don't see most of them. Jahamaa, that is what I've been thinking. That men, overall, don't see the problems. Not as in being blind, but more along the lines of not really being exposed.



I'm very glad to say that I think we've made a ton of progress. A hundred years ago, what professions were open to women? Today we're in just about every field.

My experience has been that women are reaching higher positions, but (after three years in payroll) they aren't earning the same salaries. We can always shop around for a better paying job if we want/need one. In fact, I started shopping a few weeks ago, and ended up with a raise that will induce me to stay on at my current company. Fair enough. (grin)



I *think* the wage gap refers mainly to people without many skills or an education.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922479.html (this says we have a wage gap)

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/ (this says the gap is closing)



I think we are moving along with this issue. I'm a lot more concerned about violence against women, child care for working women/parents, and the difficulties faced by single parents (mainly women at this point).



I also think that with the recent explosion of "husband kills wife" crimes, and with increasing exposure to how domestic violence happens, that everyone is becoming more aware of some of the problems we're facing.



jahamaa wrote: As far as men looking at women, well I have to plead quilty here. Truth is I think it's just the way men are wired. Now I'm not condoning bad behavior but the looking, I think. is just us being us.



We're not stupid. I'm an over 50 year old guy, and am well aware that the ladies I'm looking at are in no way going to be interested in me. So why do I look? beats the heck out of me. Lord knows I am not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable and if I think about it I look away but next time an attractive woman goes by I catch myself looking again. Go figure. Maybe it's the same reason we look at hot sports cars we're just attracted to what we know we're never going to have. :-4Go and boldly get that sports car, man! I intend to, just as soon as I'm finished paying for school. Vrrroooom!



I hate to see you sell yourself short. You are smart, kind, funny, and interesting. Why wouldn't women you look at be interested in you.?.



Looking is fine.

I'm complaining about those guys who stare at me head to toe, measure me up, and then expect something for it. Something besides a slap upside the head. LOL.

[Bill Sikes]

A Karenina wrote: Women pay more for services like haircuts and dry cleaning. It could be a white button-up shirt, identical to a man's shirt, but we pay more because the "buttons are on the wrong side".

Car repairs is another ugly area.


Women's hair-dos - I have asked a hairdresser/beautician why women pay more. The answer is "because they will". Afterthoughts were "Because the premises and procedure are more expensive" and "they tend to have more hair". Something has happend to haircuts over the last 20 years or so, though. I pay a lot more. I may have to pay £10 or more, and it takes 1/2 an hour - it *used* to take 10 minutes - if I tell my barber he's got 10 minutes to do the job now, he can't!

Men's shirts and women's blouses - I have never had any that need dry-cleaning. Are you *sure* they're the same?

Cars. Well, yes. It's people taking advantage of a historical lesser degree of knowledge. It also happens to men who don't know anything about cars. There are ways around this, but I'm with you - it should not happen!