How should you express an opinion here?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:38 am

Peter Lake;1458403 wrote:

There are times though we do have no option but to bow to one's greater knowledge and accept that life experience can speak far more than anything else. People just have to accept we don't know everything, degree or no degree.

It's my opinion that that post was insightful.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:22 pm

Betty Boop;1457882 wrote: Is it good enough to just state your opinion and leave it at that?

Should you state your opinion and also find back up for arriving at your opinion?

If you are stating certain things as fact do you need to back that up or should the membership just believe you because you know best?

Anything I post is generally my opinion. If I claim something as a fact, I will generally have data to back it up.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:03 pm

Regardless of how you come to form an opinion, it remains a fact that you have that opinion, be it formed by evidence, intuition, or outright prejudice.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:50 pm

Fact is... no one can agree!

Post by **Peter Lake** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:51 pm

FourPart;1458651 wrote: Regardless of how you come to form an opinion, it remains a fact that you have that opinion, be it formed by evidence, intuition, or outright prejudice. I was thrown initially by the title of the thread which refers to here, the internet, then goes on to explain the problem is in real life, so i'm still left wondering are we talking internet or real life?

I agree with you and you raised intuition which is a factor i missed prior. Throughout life, we gain opinion on that intuition, life experience, knowledge or even just a childhood dislike. When we come to write on a faceless forum on the internet, those opinions have already been formed in real life and mostly, because we don't know a members life, we can't possibly judge them on how that opinion was reached. Again, i agree that if we state anything on the internet as fact, we can back that up with links to a reliable source. I believe it goes further than that and is not so black and white. I can bake bread but the fourteen year old kid down the road gets his to rise better than mine. That makes me the idiot in bread making and enables me to bow to his greater experience. It's more to do with how you accept defeat in life and bow to life experience or a greater knowledge by others. It comes down to how you deal with rejection and some people in life can do nothing but get angry if the fourteen year old kid outsmarts them when he has no degree in bread making. Likewise i've often witnessed a 10 year old land a bigger fish than me on the bank but rather than feel resentment, i'd make a point of finding out what the kid is doing, what bait he's using, how far out he casts, if he's casting away from the current when i've spent most of my life fishing. I'm sure there are plenty of people who think i'm an idiot but sometimes we have to accept in life, we are not as informed as we thought we were and we have to deal with that rejection. My wife has the memory of an elephant also but her opinion is often borne out by being able to recite fact. Some people just have that knack and it's a gift until you're the husband having a row with her. :wah:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:57 am

I'd go one further and Include arrogance. I've run Into people In real life as one example who would dismiss Instantly anything I've said about a horse race because I'm a woman... there are still people like that around who believe that some subjects can only be discussed within a room full of men. However when It comes to racing on the flat, I do have to bow to greater experience.

Then there are those who believe because they have read one newspaper article and have agreed with that article, that goes down as fact In their minds and from then on, they just won't budge or listen to an alternative view. Then arrogance over the other comes Into play because they will not give credit that the other person may have read all oppossing views on the subject, weighed up the evidence and drawn their own conclusion. In their mind, their opponent only see's one view because It's different to theirs, puts them down and labels them as this or that... I just have no time for anyone like that.... I respect those who earns respect. Often those who accuse others of shouting down are actually doing the shouting down themselves and can't handle the rejection that someone may think they're just a big head devoid of actual knowledge.

I'd say, If anyone Is shouting another down, then that person needs to look to themselves as why they are being shouted down In their mind. It may be the way they present themselves and they are not presenting a coherent valid debate as they think they are. I respect people who listen. A good example of that Is a certain politician with fixed views on Fox Hunting until we sat down together and chewed the facts. Now, If you believed the media, you'd Imagine I didn't get very far with him shouting me down and talking over me. Far from It, he listened. I presented my views based on a life of experience and he would repeatedly reply ' well, I never knew that', yet I'm debating with a highly educacted politician with a degree. The upshot was being asked to write and present something for his party.

The same here, I respect members because they are authorities on teaching, another on finance, another for IT skills, another for canine knowledge etc etc... I just don't like bigheads who can present nothing while telling me they know It all. I'm happy to learn from anyone when It's presented In a respectful manner and not arrogance,

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:26 am

Oscar Namechange;1458693 wrote: I'd go one further and Include arrogance. I've run Into people In real life as one example who would dismiss Instantly anything I've said about a horse race because I'm a woman... there are still people like that around who believe that some subjects can only be discussed within a room full of men.

Interesting. Not too sure about horse racing but regards dressyr it is ALL WOMEN in Sweden. Young girls start out as stable girls (not boys) and they carry on right up through adulthood. You'd be very hard-pressed to find more than one or two men in the Swedish stable, or on the turf. It's "a girl thing".

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:47 am

High Threshold;1458703 wrote: Interesting. Not too sure about horse racing but regards dressyr it is ALL WOMEN in Sweden. Young girls start out as stable girls (not boys) and they carry on right up through adulthood. You'd be very hard-pressed to find more than one or two men in the Swedish stable, or on the turf. It's "a girl thing".
Horse racing here Is still dominated by men as Is the gaming side In Betting Offices. Although we do have some very good female jockeys. It annoys the hell out me that some racing connections still see a woman and not her horseman womanship. Hayley Turner Is a good example where her sexuality Is discussed over her horse skills. Yet, to be fair, I have thrown In that I'd happily shag Tom Scu Into many a horse racing debate.

My forte In life Is National Hunt, Steeplechasing, Hurdling and Cross Country ( a world of difference between all ) carried out through the winter months. I don't have a degree In It but I do know how any entrant of any race will repsond to a left or right handed track, good or heavy ground or even lack of cruising speed. That Is down to a life of experience, no degree and a life of listening to those who know better than me. I may sound a big head, but Invariably don't often get It wrong but that's a life of experience.

My brother was badgering me for years to go on Mastermind on TV as National Hunt the specialised subject but In all honesty, I'd fail on the second half on the General Knowledge. eta... I could follow a particular horse from a novice for 3 seasons, never having a bet, just watching him, how he takes the hurdles, his cruising speed, how he responded to coming off the bridle If he came off the bridle at all, what ground conditions he preferred, how he responded when his jockey brought the whip In the final stages, could he find an extra gear on the run In when challenged for the line after running 3 miles or would he run out of stamina, does he respond better to one particular jockey, does he like to lead from the front or sit patiently until the last hurdle, Is there fresh air under him over hurdles or does he clip the fences typical of French trained Steeplechasers, how does he respond to large fields with other horses falling around him, how will the handicap weights affect him, slow him down or Is he still punching abover the weight of the rest of the field? etc etc etc.... Then I make my move and my bet and a good example of that was my tipping Taquin De Suell at 7/1 who won The JLT Novices Chase... but prior I had been called an Idiot by a man over the opinion I reached on how he'd play the race.... That's an example of greater knowledge just through life experience and an arrogant arssehole who offered me nothing but just thought he knew It all..

eta 2.... Then those that go with the sheep because they think It will make them look Informed off the back of someone else's knowledge.

I was on Facebook not so long ago with the trainer of the winner of The Gold Cup.... He wrote a status update apologising for the fact he had sneered In a humourous way at ' Bobs Worth' the one horse so many pundits believed would take the race. After making his apology, the sheeps came In posting his apology was a gracious thing to do. The I posted ' Why the hell should you apologise Jim ? Don't you think Nicky Henderson would have sneered at you had his Bobs Worth won the race'... Immediatly, the sheep changed tact posting, yeah well said Jules... I've not time for people like that either.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:21 am

Oscar Namechange;1458707 wrote: Horse racing here Is still dominated by men as Is the gaming side In Betting Offices. Although we do have some very good female jockeys. It annoys the hell out me that some racing connections still see a woman and not her horseman womanship. Hayley Turner Is a good example where her sexuality Is discussed over her horse skills.

Ho! I played serious tennis when I was a student at university. I don't play anymore but I still do get agitated when the top women players get more attention to the chance photo of the edged of their knickers during an over-head smash. The sport is about tennis people, tennis!

Oscar Namechange;1458707 wrote: My forte In life Is National Hunt, Steeplechasing, Hurdling and Cross Country ( a world of difference between all ) carried out through the winter months. I don't have a degree In It but I do know how any entrant of any race will repsond to a left or right handed track, good or heavy ground or even lack of cruising speed.

I don't know much about horses but I do know the most important thing there is to know about them ... they love apples!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:29 am

High Threshold;1458713 wrote: Ho! I played serious tennis when I was a student at university. I don't play anymore but I still do get agitated when the top women players get more attention to the chance photo of the edged of their knickers during an over-head smash. The sport is about tennis people, tennis!

I don't know much about horses but I do know the most important thing there is to know about them ... they love apples!

I had tennis lessons as a kid but In all honesty, I wasn't good enough to get anywhere. While my Father sweated over my back hand, my Mother was the one sweating that everyone would see my knickers and would buy me white frilly monstrosities as she worried also about what nurses would think should I get run over one day. You can Imagine the scenario In the emergency room ' Yes, I'm afraid your daughter has sustained Injuries she will die from but hey, lovely clean pants'.

When I've been honoured In stable visits, I'm told horses love Polo mints but It doesn't work for me... they all treat me with a haughty Indifference.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:39 am

I'm a regular viewer of Question Time, and one thing I've noticed is that the panelists who say least, without talking over everyone else are the ones that get listened to most & command a greater respect. When everyone starts shouting at each other no-one can get their point across, and no-one, least of all the audience, can even make out what anyone is actually saying.

The best way to form an informed opinion is to listen & permit yourself to be informed.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:48 am

Oscar Namechange;1458722 wrote: ..... While my Father sweated over my back hand, my Mother was the one sweating that everyone would see my knickers and would buy me white frilly monstrosities as she worried also about what nurses would think should I get run over one day. You can Imagine the scenario In the emergency room ' Yes, I'm afraid your daughter has sustained Injuries she will die from but hey, lovely clean pants'.

I'm laughing smiles of joy and tears of sadness at the same time!

:yh_sigh

Oscar Namechange;1458722 wrote: When I've been honoured In stable visits, I'm told horses love Polo mints but It doesn't work for me... they all treat me with a haughty Indifference.

Try clover. That usually does the trick.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:51 am

Actually, I wasn't being entirely honest when I said I know nothing about horses. Grand pa-pa had 12 ponies and I learned to ride soon after I learned to walk.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:57 am

High Threshold;1458727 wrote: I'm laughing smiles of joy and tears of sadness at the same time!

:yh_sigh

Try clover. That usually does the trick. Wouldn't that stick to their gums?

Clover – Dairy Crest

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:58 am

FourPart;1458725 wrote: I'm a regular viewer of Question Time, and one thing I've noticed is that the panelists who say least, without talking over everyone else are the ones that get listened to most & command a greater respect. When everyone starts shouting at each other no-one can get their point across, and no-one, least of all the audience, can even make out what anyone is actually saying.

The best way to form an informed opinion is to listen & permit yourself to be informed. I have to switch that off sometimes.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:05 am

I understand that clover is actually toxic to cows (which makes the brand name even more ironic). Might the same be true of horses (that clover is toxic to horses - not that horses would be toxic to cows, before you say it)?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:23 am

Oscar Namechange;1458730 wrote: Wouldn't that stick to their gums?

Clover – Dairy Crest

You just had to say that, didn't you. :p

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:46 am

FourPart;1458732 wrote: I understand that clover is actually toxic to cows (which makes the brand name even more ironic). Might the same be true of horses (that clover is toxic to horses - not that horses would be toxic to cows, before you say it)?

Clover, itself, is not toxic to cattle. They eat it all the time.

What is toxic is silage or hay bales that contain high quantities of clover, and has begun to spoil, and mold. The mold creates a toxin that will cause serious problems if consumed in large quantities.

Ref:

Overview of Sweet Clover Poisoning: Sweet Clover Poisoning: Merck Veterinary Manual

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:30 pm

theia;1458391 wrote: Big Brother

That made me shudder a little bit. It got me reaching for a few sharp pencils, should I find it necessary to jab them into my eyes

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:54 pm

Snowfire;1458749 wrote: That made me shudder a little bit. It got me reaching for a few sharp pencils, should I find it necessary to jab them into my eyes

Sorry, Snowfire, I just can't believe you...

It's on in 7 minutes!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:03 pm

LarsMac;1458739 wrote: Clover, itself, is not toxic to cattle. They eat it all the time.

What is toxic is silage or hay bales that contain high quantities of clover, and has begun to spoil, and mold. The mold creates a toxin that will cause serious problems if consumed in large quantities.

Ref:

Overview of Sweet Clover Poisoning: Sweet Clover Poisoning: Merck Veterinary Manual
I didn't know that. See, I've learned something today... Thank you

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:01 pm

LarsMac;1458739 wrote: Clover, itself, is not toxic to cattle. They eat it all the time.

Maybe that's why they've always got the runs.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:49 am

High Threshold;1458728 wrote: Actually, I wasn't being entirely honest when I said I know nothing about horses. Grand pa-pa had 12 ponies and I learned to ride soon after I learned to walk.

I can recite horse racing stats and trends all day long. For example:

You see a race and one horse has this form... 11111111111

All the rest have a variety of 231P/U15R62

Do you rush to put your money on the unbeaten horse? Many would... not me... I wouldn't touch It with a barge pole... I can remember he's not had an outing for the last two years due to Injury. I can remember he's a two miler and his trainer has just stepped him up to 3 miles. I can remember he's used to running on right handed tracks and now he's at Cheltenham and swinging left handed. I can remember he favour firm ground and It's been raining...

That however, Is where my life experience In horses ends. I ride, but badly. My brother has horses who show me nothing but haughty Indifference and walk away from me.,oh and one, lovingly named ' Pickles' just hates me and wants to savage me while smooching with my young nephew.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:55 am

Oscar Namechange;1458810 wrote: I can recite horse racing stats and trends all day long. For example:

You see a race and one horse has this form... 11111111111

All the rest have a variety of 231P/U15R62

Do you rush to put your money on the unbeaten horse? Many would... not me... I wouldn't touch It with a barge pole... I can remember he's not had an outing for the last two years due to Injury. I can remember he's a two miler and his trainer has just stepped him up to 3 miles. I can remember he's used to running on right handed tracks and now he's at Cheltenham and swinging left handed. I can remember he favour firm ground and It's been raining...

That however, Is where my life experience In horses ends. I ride, but badly. My brother has horses who show me nothing but haughty Indifference and walk away from me.

You may find this amusing. I do. My experience with horses has had an interesting and long-lasting affect upon me. I always board the push-bike, motorcycle, and even skate board from the left and it unnerves me to see those who do so from the right.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:45 am

High Threshold;1458811 wrote: You may find this amusing. I do. My experience with horses has had an interesting and long-lasting affect upon me. I always board the push-bike, motorcycle, and even skate board from the left and it unnerves me to see those who do so from the right. :wah::wah::wah:

Hey, I'm just grateful the horse Is still standing and hasn't wandered away from me :wah:

Despite being able to recall form and racing trends, It doesn't stop me occassionally looking a pillock on the race course when the very unexpected happens. Take the 2010 Hennessy Gold Cup. I managed to actually prise my husband on to Newbury race course for the day In minus 7 degree's. I'm a bit of horse groupie so I was there to see one horse that day... the one dubbed by the racing world ' The Tank',

So the Gold Cip entrants are parading and he hasn't got a clue... a bit like me not knowing one fish from the other. So I advise him that as I'd already place my win bet on Denman aka The Tank, he'd be better going for a place bet and two, Madison Du Berlais ( RIP ) and Neptune Collognes had never fallen In their careers. The race got under way and as they are approaching the 4 th fence, I turned and said words along the lines of ' you'll be alright with those two, they've never fallen. The words had barely left my mouth.

Ahem... you only have to watch the first minute to see what happened next,

Hennessey Gold Cup Chase 2010 - YouTube

( RIP Silver By Nature)

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:02 am

Oscar Namechange;1458823 wrote: ... you only have to watch the first minute to see what happened next,

Hennessey Gold Cup Chase 2010 - YouTube

( RIP Silver By Nature)

That comes second (after the video of the WTC office executives' aerial exit) for the least pleasurable viewing.

I wonder ¦. is this the right moment to say what I think about forcing jockey-laden horses to jump over obstacles - and risk breaking their legs? I haven't said yet but I am thinking about it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:42 am

High Threshold;1458826 wrote: That comes second (after the video of the WTC office executives' aerial exit) for the least pleasurable viewing.

I wonder ¦. is this the right moment to say what I think about forcing jockey-laden horses to jump over obstacles - and risk breaking their legs? I haven't said yet but I am thinking about it. It's a good question and one raised so much In Steeplechasing and In keeping with the topic of the thread, I can only offer my opinion based on what I've learned over the years.

First of all, I can state that as an animal rights campaigner, I can say hand on heart that If I believed It was cruel, I could not have this sport as my life's work and passion. It is heartbreaking when a horse does fall and dies and yes, of course It happens. My entire 4 day Cheltenham Festival this March was ruined when ' Our Connor' fell In the Champion Hurdle and was euthanised on the track before our eyes. Horse shouldn't fall over hurdles, they are a world apart from Steeplechase fences and as with ' Darlan' who fell and broke his neck at Doncaster last year, these falls over hurdles are rare and often freak accidents. Steeple chasing and national Hunt Is different to Hurdles, far higher fences often Incorporating ditches, water jumps etc... they are termed as obstacles.

The myth that most race goers are there to win money and scream drunkenly at their choice Is just that a myth. Most race goers are there to see the finest equine athletes perform... all of them, not just their bet. It's a bit like why a car enthusiast goes to a show to see Ferarri's and Bugatti's.

The Horse Racing Authority In this country does work tirelessly with animal welfare orgs, and proof of that Is the amendments to the course two years at Aintree for the Grand Nationals. The upshot was, due to the changes made to the course and obstacles, both ensuing races, all 40 horses returned home safe.

But It's more to do with the horse Psyche. All horses are herd animals and the Instinct Is to run with the herd. That's why you will see horses fall, refuse a fence but still continue the race riderless. That example I gave you at Newbury, both Madison Du Berlais and Neptune Collognes went on riderless to run the entire race looking for their applause as they passed the line In front of the Grand Stand. Just two years later, Neptune Collognes none the worse for that fall, won the Grand National,

Can a jockey weighing 6 stone force 18 hands of solid muscle over a fence at speeds of 40 mph ? Absolutely not. He can't even get It to start. Look at races where the horse refuses to even start. Approaching a fence, the horse will refuse If he does not have enough faith In that jockey to get him over safely, he will even throw his jockey, simply, all they have to do Is dip the shoulders and the jockey will go In the ditch yet 9 times out of 10, the horse will carry on with the herd riderless. I remember one time at Punchestown, Ireland... even the greatest jumps jockey In the world, AP McCoy could not cajole the mighty Denman to swing right handed because the horse preferred a left handed track. Another time he dumped the mighty McCoy In the nearest ditch yet next time under his favourite jockey Sam Thomas, he did everything right.

So... to sum up... It's Impossible to force a horse to start or take a jump...they will simply unseat their rider, but the amount of horses continuing after they have fallen, Is 9 out of 10 times because.... they want to !!!

It may be a bit tedious to you but watch this entire race as a good example... watch the two fallers and the third faller at the last fence right at the very end of the race, It's a very good example.

2013 William Hill King George Chase - Silviniaco Conti - YouTube

When horses fall, you can hear the sharp Intake of breath from the watchers on the course and then the loud collective exhale when they get back on their feet. We don't do that with jockeys. When you weigh up the thousands of horses that race every season and the fatalities, the percentage Is extremely low. These days also, with advancements In Veterinary surgery, many of those small percentage can be saved these days. A good example of that Is Tricky Trickster who broke his neck at Uttoxeter and went on to race again. Another Is last years Grand National winner Aurura's Encore who broke a leg at Doncaster In January, now enjoying a very happy retirement.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:58 am

Oscar Namechange;1458829 wrote: When horses fall, you can hear the sharp Intake of breath from the watchers on the course and then the loud collective exhale when they get back on their feet. We don't do that with jockeys.
That's because jockeys are more expendible thatn pedigree racehorses. Besides, if a jockey breaks a few bones it's just a few weeks in plaster. If a horse gets so much as a minor fracture, it's the bullet.

I agree that it's in a horse's nature to run with the herd, though. After all, it's not uncommon to see a riderless horse win a race - it's just that the rules state that the jockey has to be mounted in order to qualify as a win. It might be more interesting to have races without jockeys at all - just like greyhounds.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:37 pm

FourPart;1458831 wrote: That's because jockeys are more expendible thatn pedigree racehorses. Besides, if a jockey breaks a few bones it's just a few weeks in plaster. If a horse gets so much as a minor fracture, it's the bullet.

I agree that it's in a horse's nature to run with the herd, though. After all, it's not uncommon to see a riderless horse win a race - it's just that the rules state that the jockey has to be mounted in order to qualify as a win. It might be more interesting to have races without jockeys at all - just like greyhounds. Not quite... Jockey JT McNamara Is still paralysed from the neck down after his horse Galaxy Rock fell In the Kim Muir Challenge Cup at Cheltenham last year when the horse fell on top of him. He'll never recover.

Only two weeks ago, Jockey Jordon McDonald from Leicester died while competing during the horse trials ... there are others, too many to mention.

Horses don't get the bullet any more. All entrants will be assessed by course Vets before they can start the race. If they fall and don't get up, those course Vets are with the horse within seconds... watch horse races... you see them travelling along side the track In usually a four by four. They are assessed very very quickly and If more than one agree's nothing can be done ( these days, a broken back but they are rare ) and the horses owner or trainer also agree's, the horse Is euthanised humanely and put to sleep. In the main, most get hoisted off the track and taken to the specialist equine sugeon at Newmarket. ( All race horses have to have Insurance so If It's possible to save the horse then the Insurance pays. No-one euthanises a horse for no good reason these days but on the other hand, Champion Jockey AP McCoy Is unInsurable.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:43 pm

My eyes just glazed over.........

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:57 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458829 wrote: It's a good question and one raised so much In Steeplechasing and In keeping with the topic of the thread, I can only offer my opinion based on what I've learned over the years.

First of all, I can state that as an animal rights campaigner, I can say hand on heart that If I believed It was cruel, I could not have this sport as my life's work and passion. It is heartbreaking when a horse does fall and dies and yes, of course It happens. My entire 4 day Cheltenham Festival this March was ruined when ' Our Connor' fell In the Champion Hurdle and was euthanised on the track before our eyes. Horse shouldn't fall over hurdles, they are a world apart from Steeplechase fences and as with ' Darlan' who fell and broke his neck at Doncaster last year, these falls over hurdles are rare and often freak accidents. Steeple chasing and national Hunt Is different to Hurdles, far higher fences often Incorporating ditches, water jumps etc... they are termed as obstacles.

The myth that most race goers are there to win money and scream drunkenly at their choice Is just that a myth. Most race goers are there to see the finest equine athletes perform... all of them, not just their bet. It's a bit like why a car enthusiast goes to a show to see Ferarri's and Bugatti's.

The Horse Racing Authority In this country does work tirelessly with animal welfare orgs, and proof of that Is the amendments to the course two years at Aintree for the Grand Nationals. The upshot was, due to the changes made to the course and obstacles, both ensuing races, all 40 horses returned home safe.

But It's more to do with the horse Psyche. All horses are herd animals and the Instinct Is to run with the herd. That's why you will see horses fall, refuse a fence but still continue the race riderless. That example I gave you at Newbury, both Madison Du Berlais and Neptune Collognes went on riderless to run the entire race looking for their applause as they passed the line In front of the Grand Stand. Just two years later, Neptune Collognes none the worse for that fall, won the Grand National,

Can a jockey weighing 6 stone force 18 hands of solid muscle over a fence at speeds of 40 mph ? Absolutely not. He can't even get It to start. Look at races where the horse refuses to even start. Approaching a fence, the horse will refuse If he does not have enough faith In that jockey to get him over safely, he will even throw his jockey, simply, all they have to do Is dip the shoulders and the jockey will go In the ditch yet 9 times out of 10, the horse will carry on with the herd riderless. I remember one time at Punchestown, Ireland... even the greatest jumps jockey In the world, AP McCoy could not cajole the mighty Denman to swing right handed because the horse preferred a left handed track. Another time he dumped the mighty McCoy In the nearest ditch yet next time under his favourite jockey Sam Thomas, he did everything right.

So... to sum up... It's Impossible to force a horse to start or take a jump...they will simply unseat their rider, but the amount of horses continuing after they have fallen, Is 9 out of 10 times because.... they want to !!!

It may be a bit tedious to you but watch this entire race as a good example... watch the two fallers and the third faller at the last fence right at the very end of the race, It's a very good example.

2013 William Hill King George Chase - Silviniaco Conti - YouTube

When horses fall, you can hear the sharp Intake of breath from the watchers on the course and then the loud collective exhale when they get back on their feet. We don't do that with jockeys. When you weigh up the thousands of horses that race every season and the fatalities, the percentage Is extremely low. These days also, with advancements In Veterinary surgery, many of those small percentage can be saved these days. A good example of that Is Tricky Trickster who broke his neck at Uttoxeter and went on to race again. Another Is last years Grand National winner Aurura's Encore who broke a leg at Doncaster In January, now enjoying a very happy retirement.

I know that you've put a lot of effort into your reply and I assume you'd like for me to see it your way. Sorry, but I cannot, though I don't want to take this so far that we reach the brink of 'nowhere'. But OK. Here's the thing. You know I don't agree with forcing horses to jump – because it is dangerous. You'll never convince me that it's a good thing to do. There's more. There's a tweek. Standing (half hidden) at the edge of the hurdle stands a person holding a pole. Training a horse to jump higher and higher, his rear hooves are given a tap with the pole just as his hind legs are at the apex of the jump, making the horse think it's misjudged the height of the bar. It's psychological torture. OK 'torture' is slightly overstating it but still ¦....

No, we're never going to come to an agreement on the subject of jumping horses. But I also am disgusted by people who keep dogs in city flats, left there all the day long, waiting for a half-hour stroll (at the end of a lead) to find his favourite place to drop its waste. Perhaps we can come to an agreement on that subject?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:18 pm

High Threshold;1458841 wrote:

No, we're never going to come to an agreement on the subject of jumping horses. But I also am disgusted by people who keep dogs in city flats, left there all the day long, waiting for a half-hour stroll (at the end of a lead) to find his favourite place to drop its waste. Perhaps we can come to an agreement on that subject?
I couldn't agree more. In fact I feel the same way about keeping cats in tower blocks as well. I like cats & would love to have one, but living in a tower block myself I know it wouldn't be fair on the cat.

You may have seen the recent Channel 4 documentary "Caught In The Act", all about CCTV (which I had a special interest in, living in the focal block that the programme was centred on - albeit very creatively edited). My point being that one of the items included on the programme was the case of someone who was keeping a dog in their flat, which is a breach of the Tenancy Regulations (which he would have know about from the start) & when he refused to get rid of the dog, rather than evict him the Council simply found him a Council House instead. I know of people in these flats who would kill for a chance of a Council House, while someone like him blatantly breaks the rules of his Tenancy Contract & is rewarded for doing so. Is it any wonder I get so angered at such things?

The point is that I think you will find, just as with the Southampton City Council it is usually prohibited by all councils to allow dogs into anywhere that has a communal entrance (although guide / hearing dogs are sometimes exempt). However, just as smoking is also prohibited in communal areas, there will always be those that flout the regulations - and get away with it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:18 pm

High Threshold;1458841 wrote: I know that you've put a lot of effort into your reply and I assume you'd like for me to see it your way. Sorry, but I cannot, though I don't want to take this so far that we reach the brink of 'nowhere'. But OK. Here's the thing. You know I don't agree with forcing horses to jump – because it is dangerous. You'll never convince me that it's a good thing to do. There's more. There's a tweek. Standing (half hidden) at the edge of the hurdle stands a person holding a pole. Training a horse to jump higher and higher, his rear hooves are given a tap with the pole just as his hind legs are at the apex of the jump, making the horse think it's misjudged the height of the bar. It's psychological torture. OK 'torture' is slightly overstating it but still ¦....

No, we're never going to come to an agreement on the subject of jumping horses. But I also am disgusted by people who keep dogs in city flats, left there all the day long, waiting for a half-hour stroll (at the end of a lead) to find his favourite place to drop its waste. Perhaps we can come to an agreement on that subject? Hey, I respect your opinion that you're perfectly entitled to. Going back to the topic of the thread and how we present an opinion, be It real life or on the Internet, I thoroughly enjoy and respect your opinion because of the manner In which you debate. Long may that continue.

One other thing, Is the very high entrance fee for horse races especially for the more prestigious Grade or Group 1's. Most good trainers will not risk that knowing the horse could refuse, unseat or not stay the distance but that's a whole new subject.

I don't entirely dismiss your post out of hand because It doesn't meet with mine. There are some trainers and owners who make very bad decisions... Don't even get me started about a horse called Long Run and the decision to put him In the Grand National...

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:23 pm

FourPart;1458847 wrote: I couldn't agree more. In fact I feel the same way about keeping cats in tower blocks as well. I like cats & would love to have one, but living in a tower block myself I know it wouldn't be fair on the cat.

You may have seen the recent Channel 4 documentary "Caught In The Act", all about CCTV (which I had a special interest in, living in the focal block that the programme was centred on - albeit very creatively edited). My point being that one of the items included on the programme was the case of someone who was keeping a dog in their flat, which is a breach of the Tenancy Regulations (which he would have know about from the start) & when he refused to get rid of the dog, rather than evict him the Council simply found him a Council House instead. I know of people in these flats who would kill for a chance of a Council House, while someone like him blatantly breaks the rules of his Tenancy Contract & is rewarded for doing so. Is it any wonder I get so angered at such things?

The point is that I think you will find, just as with the Southampton City Council it is prohibited to allow dogs into anywhere that has a communal entrance (although guide / hearing dogs are sometimes exempt). However, just as smoking is also prohibited in communal areas, there will always be those that flout the regulations - and get away with it.

Couldn't agree more...

Peter and I took a rescue Parson Jack Russell last month. Aged 7 months she had lived her life In an attic, 3rd floor self contained flat. She never even had a bed. The flat was on the main road In the centre of the city, not even a nearby park for a walk. She was grossly under weight with her ribs clearly visible.

We took her home and after a few days I let her loose for the first time In her life In the field outside my house... she ran and ran and ran so happy. She also now had a garden that she just loves. She's coming on really nicely now and the Vet is very pleased with her progress and she's responding to training very well.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:29 pm

On a similar tack regarding horses & jumping, I have very strong reservations about Show Jumping.

While it may be instinctive to run & jump with the herd at full gallop, Show Jumping is an entirely different matter. They get a ridiculously short run-up & whereas in racing the jockey is unnaturally small, in Show Jumping the riders are frequently above average. I seem to remember Harvey Smith was well over 6' - as was Mark Phillips. The fences / gates (or whatever you call them) are hard wood, and even though they may be designed to fall off when hit, a whack to the shin can still cause a great deal of pain & injury.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:34 pm

FourPart;1458847 wrote: You may have seen the recent Channel 4 documentary "Caught In The Act" ...

We don't get UK programming straight off the rack but it might come to us in a year or two.

FourPart;1458847 wrote: My point being that one of the items included on the programme was the case of someone who was keeping a dog in their flat, which is a breach of the Tenancy Regulations (which he would have know about from the start) & when he refused to get rid of the dog, rather than evict him the Council simply found him a Council House instead. I know of people in these flats who would kill for a chance of a Council House, while someone like him blatantly breaks the rules of his Tenancy Contract & is rewarded for doing so.

Christ!

FourPart;1458847 wrote: Is it any wonder I get so angered at such things?

None at all.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:39 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458848 wrote: .... I thoroughly enjoy and respect your opinion because of the manner In which you debate....

It's really kind of you to say so. Thank you.

Oscar Namechange;1458849 wrote: Peter and I took a rescue Parson Jack Russell last month. Aged 7 months she had lived her life In an attic, 3rd floor self contained flat. She never even had a bed. The flat was on the main road In the centre of the city, not even a nearby park for a walk. She was grossly under weight with her ribs clearly visible.

We took her home and after a few days I let her loose for the first time In her life In the field outside my house... she ran and ran and ran so happy. She also now had a garden that she just loves. She's coming on really nicely now and the Vet is very pleased with her progress and she's responding to training very well.

Now this is the kind of story I love to hear!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:50 pm

FourPart;1458852 wrote: On a similar tack regarding horses & jumping, I have very strong reservations about Show Jumping.

While it may be instinctive to run & jump with the herd at full gallop, Show Jumping is an entirely different matter. They get a ridiculously short run-up & whereas in racing the jockey is unnaturally small, in Show Jumping the riders are frequently above average. I seem to remember Harvey Smith was well over 6' - as was Mark Phillips. The fences / gates (or whatever you call them) are hard wood, and even though they may be designed to fall off when hit, a whack to the shin can still cause a great deal of pain & injury. Couldn't agree more... the difference as you rightly pointed out Is the distance between jumps and the horse has no time or length to get a good cruising speed to carry him over those obstacles. Since the changes to the Grand National course to reduce Injury has been to pad the toe bars and this Is something a lot of courses are now following suit with. A good example of this was one of the most talented steeplechasers I'd seen In many a year, Master Minded having his career ended In the 2011 King George Stakes at Kempton Park when he clouted hard the unpadded toe bar. In my humble opinion, that was a young future Gold Cup winner although he has recovered since. I've seen no changes to toe bars In show jumping.

Show Jumping unlike the HRA don't seem to listen to animal welfare concern and Ironically, we get a lot of flack about Jockeys using whips but It's OK when some precocious child to whip during show jumping when horse racing can see a jockey banned for misuse of the whip. Very recently we have seen a revised penalty structure. That's the big difference... the HRA Is always working to Improve safety for the horses welfare.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:57 pm

I don't know if non UK can view the 4OD catch up videos online (I believe BBC ones are blocked, but not sure about the Independent ones), but this is the programme in question:

CCTV: Caught on Camera - 4oD - Channel 4

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:16 pm

FourPart;1458865 wrote: I don't know if non UK can view the 4OD catch up videos online (I believe BBC ones are blocked, but not sure about the Independent ones), but this is the programme in question:

CCTV: Caught on Camera - 4oD - Channel 4 Nope,tried but can't get It...I'll try later on my husbands PC which Is faster.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:30 pm

Oops - that was the link to Episode 3 - the one that covers my place is Episode 1:

CCTV: Caught on Camera - 4oD - Channel 4

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:20 pm

"This Service in currently not available in your area"

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:36 pm

LarsMac;1458874 wrote: "This Service in currently not available in your area"
Pity, because unlike C4's usual tabloid style of sensationalising everything, with a very biased view, this one was extremely well made, giving a well balanced input of different people's opinions about CCTV. Personally, I'm all in favour of it & feel more secure in the knowledge that it's there, whereas others are vehemently opposed to it but, as one of those they interviewed said, I feel that anyone who is opposed to them could well have something to hide.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:45 pm

Bruv;1458836 wrote: My eyes just glazed over.........

Steeplechasing: Adrenaline Rush - YouTube

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:01 pm

LarsMac;1458874 wrote: "This Service in currently not available in your area"

"Flash Upgrade Required"

I don't know, I've become paranoid about down-loading anything, after that bout of PUP madness recently. How do you know what really applies to your request and what is a paste-on menace that has nothing to do with what you're trying to achieve?

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:08 pm

High Threshold;1458922 wrote: "Flash Upgrade Required"

I don't know, I've become paranoid about down-loading anything, after that bout of PUP madness recently. How do you know what really applies to your request and what is a paste-on menace that has nothing to do with what you're trying to achieve?

When a website comes up and tells you something like that, the best thing to do is send your browser to the source, in this case, Adobe's website, and check for update from there. Then, download direct for the vendor.

Then, go back to the site you were on and see if the problem is fixed.

May sound a bit over-cautious, but I hate cleaning up after malware attacks.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:13 pm

LarsMac;1458924 wrote: When a website comes up and tells you something like that, the best thing to do is send your browser to the source, in this case, Adobe's website, and check for update from there. Then, download direct for the vendor.

Then, go back to the site you were on and see if the problem is fixed.

May sound a bit over-cautious, but I hate cleaning up after malware attacks.

Sounds like good advice to me.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:38 am

I find Java the worst for upgrades & have deactivated the Automatic Update because of it, otherwise it goes mad, making multiple updates every day.

I find that Flash upgrades (genuine ones, that is) are generally worded along the lines of "New Version Available", rather than "Upgrade Required".

However one thing to be wary of is that when you get these messages, more often than not they don't originate from the site you're visiting itself, but from a piece of malware already nesting on your system somewhere which gets triggered into action when it sees a site that uses Video Streaming, thus making it plausible for you to think that it's genuine. This is one of the reasons I make a point of scanning with SpyBot - S&D at least once a week. It's a lovely little program - and free.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:20 am

FourPart;1458953 wrote: ..... when you get these messages, more often than not they don't originate from the site you're visiting itself, but from a piece of malware .... which gets triggered into action when it sees a site that uses Video Streaming, thus making it plausible for you to think that it's genuine.

Yes. This is what scares the spots off of my tail. Before I completely reset my computer (2 days ago) I was getting "Firefox" pop-ups urging me to update one thing or another. The Firefox logo looked genuine enough, it's just that the thing was obscuring my vision 15 - 20 times a day! Me, being a total computer ignoramous, didn't know what I should do. These b'stards really do take advantage of the weak and gullible. I feel like a wounded dik-dik on the savanah with vultures circling above.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:48 am

Unfortunately Firefox does have a tendency to do that - it's a default setting, so it's there from the start on every new installation. You just have to disable it:

Tools > Options > Advanced > Updates.

I have mine set to Automatically Update, with Warn if will disable any of my Add-Ons checked. I also uncheck the Update Search Engines, as there is also a nasty tendency for other malware to keep slipping other Search Engines in & taking over the HomePage / New Tab (both of which I prefer to keep as "about:blank") & when other bugs get in there, it can mean having to go in & reconfigure things manually.