Return of Anti-Semitism

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:31 am

As I view it, it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates.

It would be easy to just say get rid of the Muslims and everything would be fine and dandy for Joos.

Return of Anti-Semitism

Last Tuesday, a group of Holocaust survivors, by now gaunt and frail, made their way back to Auschwitz, the West’s symbol of evil—back to the slave-labor side of the vast complex, with its mocking inscription Arbeit Macht Frei (“Work makes you free), and back to the death camp, where a million and a quarter human beings, most of them Jews, were gassed, burned and turned to ash. They were there to commemorate the day, 70 years ago, when Soviet troops liberated Auschwitz and saw, for the first time, the true dimensions of the greatest crime since human beings first set foot on Earth.

The moment would have been emotional at the best of times, but this year brought an especially disturbing undercurrent.

The murder of Jewish shoppers at a Parisian kosher supermarket three weeks ago, after the killing of 12 people at the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, sent shivers down the spines of many Jews, not because it was the first such event but because it has become part of a pattern. In 2014, four were killed at the Jewish Museum in Brussels. In 2012, a rabbi and three young children were murdered at a Jewish school in Toulouse. In 2008 in Mumbai, four terrorists separated themselves from a larger group killing people in the city’s cafes and hotels and made their way to a small Orthodox Jewish center, where they murdered its young rabbi and his pregnant wife after torturing and mutilating them. As the Sunday Times of London reported about the attack, “the terrorists would be told by their handlers in Pakistan that the lives of Jews were worth 50 times those of non-Jews.

Some politicians around the world deny that what is happening in Europe is anti-Semitism. It is, they say, merely a reaction to the actions of the state of Israel, to the continuing conflict with the Palestinians. But the policies of the state of Israel are not made in kosher supermarkets in Paris or in Jewish cultural institutions in Brussels and Mumbai. The targets in these cities were not Israeli. They were Jewish.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:50 pm

Return? Did it ever go away?

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:51 pm

Whoever ordered the killings in France, or in any of the incidents you mentioned in your OP, chose soft Jewish targets. That's not anti-Semitism on the part of anyone except the controllers of terrorists who kill. It's an extremely small proportion of the world's population and you'd not expect them to be representative of any significant numbers. They have their agenda, and it would seem that instilling fear among mass populations suits that agenda. I wouldn't label it anti-Semitism, it already has a very good label - terrorism. I offer advice: ignore it, leave it to the criminal investigators, that way it will gain no power through its actions.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:00 pm

AnneBoleyn;1473324 wrote: Return? Did it ever go away?
My thoughts precisely.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:05 pm

FourPart;1473326 wrote: My thoughts precisely.

You all three agree that "it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates"?

That's sheer unjustifiable paranoia. What are you trying to claim? A majority of Europeans are anti-Semitic? A claim that large needs evidence, and terrorist killings represent nobody but their paymasters. I am not a paymaster of terrorist killers and neither, I strongly suspect, are any other Europeans.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:35 pm

spot;1473327 wrote: You all three agree that "it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates"?

That's sheer unjustifiable paranoia. What are you trying to claim? A majority of Europeans are anti-Semitic? A claim that large needs evidence, and terrorist killings represent nobody but their paymasters. I am not a paymaster of terrorist killers and neither, I strongly suspect, are any other Europeans.

Settle down, sailor. I just meant it exists, anti-semitism that is, not that it's overwhelming. There will always, in our lifetimes, be people who don't like, nay, Hate, Jews, that is all I meant to say, don't overblow my one simple sentence.

However, in Jewish history, that has proven to be life-threatening. Personally, I don't care about it, though I have had anti-semitic experiences, one or two which were potentially very dangerous, some were very funny.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:19 pm

AnneBoleyn;1473328 wrote: Settle down, sailor. I just meant it exists, anti-semitism that is, not that it's overwhelming. There will always, in our lifetimes, be people who don't like, nay, Hate, Jews, that is all I meant to say, don't overblow my one simple sentence.

However, in Jewish history, that has proven to be life-threatening. Personally, I don't care about it, though I have had anti-semitic experiences, one or two which were potentially very dangerous, some were very funny.

This is scarcely an exclusive attribute of being Jewish though. Umm... how about Tom Lehrer, rather than typing several serious paragraphs that would only mean the same thing...Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,

And the rich folks hate the poor folks.

All of my folks hate all of your folks,

It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,

New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.

Step up and shake the hand

Of someone you can't stand.

You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,

And the Catholics hate the Protestants,

And the Hindus hate the Moslems,

And everybody hates the Jews.

That Was the Year That Was @ Bright Tom Lehrer Days

That has proven to be life-threatening? Look at the partition of India. Millions dead along religious lines, and three full-blown wars out of the ashes. The Irish were killing in central London while I worked there solely because the British Government staunchly supported Protestant Unionism and had for centuries. The latest line of Troubles in the UK killed more people than all the 9/11 attacks combined and those deaths all happened across a religious divide. Yes, Pogroms are an aspect of Jewish life. So are Crusades. Neither are acceptable.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:30 pm

And everybody hates the Jews. is the interesting part of that little poem, is it? or is it a song?

That's why so many Jews want their own country. Not so hard to understand. I don't care for hummus & falafel.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:35 pm

AnneBoleyn;1473332 wrote: And everybody hates the Jews. is the interesting part of that little poem, is it? or is it a song?

That's why so many Jews want their own country. Not so hard to understand. I don't care for hummus & falafel.

Tom Lehrer was a Jewish song-writing entertainer who understood self-depreciation.

Purely for the record - Pogroms are exclusively instigated by Christians.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:40 pm

spot;1473333 wrote: Tom Lehrer was a Jewish song-writing entertainer who understood self-depreciation.

Purely for the record - Pogroms are exclusively instigated by Christians.

His name sounds very familiar, so do the words quoted. I'm sure I've heard them before. I know about pogroms--the grandparents explained them quite clearly. I've never heard the word used about Muslims, for example, or any other group but Xian Europeans.

Just watched clip, yes I remember him, & that was similar to the tune in my head when I read the words.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:43 pm

I did a dreadful thing... Tom Lehrer, I find to my great delight, is still alive. Cancel my "was".

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:49 pm

AnneBoleyn;1473324 wrote: Return? Did it ever go away?

NO

That is the the whole point of the commentary.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:52 pm

tude dog;1473338 wrote: NO

That is the the whole point of the commentary.
And you seriously believe that "it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates"? Honestly? You're that blinkered?

For the record, I'm European, I live in Europe. I'm sat not a quarter of a mile from the Kremlin as I type this. What you describe isn't what I see and I see Europe continually. When were you last on European soil?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:35 pm

What I was agreeing with was that the Muslims & the Jews have been at each other's throats since Moses freed them from slavery under the Pharoah & led them across the Red Sea. It's not changed over Millenia. I doubt we'll see it come to an end in our lifetimes.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:48 pm

FourPart;1473341 wrote: [...] since Moses freed them from slavery under the Pharoah & led them across the Red Sea.You don't seriously think that folk-tale has any resemblance to actual history, do you?

Really?

Okay, let's say it has if you like.

And these Muslims they encountered were who, precisely?

The existing occupants of the Promised Land?

Really?

Okay, let's say they were if you like.

That'll annoy a few Zionists, I bet.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:36 am

spot;1473342 wrote: You don't seriously think that folk-tale has any resemblance to actual history, do you?
Folk Tale? More likely than not, but most probably based in fact with a great deal of embellishment. The fact remains that they had so much hatred for those evil Palestinians that they saw fit to document it in their scriptures, and it's always been a mutual hatred between them.

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:05 am

FourPart;1473345 wrote: Folk Tale? More likely than not, but most probably based in fact with a great deal of embellishment. The fact remains that they had so much hatred for those evil Palestinians that they saw fit to document it in their scriptures, and it's always been a mutual hatred between them.

It depends on how you view your source. If you take it as - excuse my English - Gospel Truth then obviously the Chosen People have a G_d-given right to the Holy Land in perpetuity, with instructions to kill everything that breathes within the borders if it's not descended from Jacob. Speaking just for myself, I think the Pentateuch documents what the pre-Christian Jews inherited by way of traditional stories, from a time when belief in tribal Gods talking to the ancestors was credible. Unlike now.

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:18 am

tude dog;1473321 wrote: As I view it, it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates.

Here we are - I took this a couple of hours ago. No graffiti, no police guard, people going in and coming out without furtively checking who was watching their movements and writing down their names. This is Europe. I've no doubt you want what you say to be true, but you need evidence. What you have is a personal prejudice for which I have no sympathy. I think your claim adds to the problem, it does nothing to diminish it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:28 am

FourPart;1473341 wrote: What I was agreeing with was that the Muslims & the Jews have been at each other's throats since Moses freed them from slavery under the Pharoah & led them across the Red Sea. It's not changed over Millenia. I doubt we'll see it come to an end in our lifetimes.

Pretty good going that who were these muslims the jews are supposed to have attacked and did anyone tell the prophet he had been beaten to it and muslims already existed?

I'd have thouight muslims had cause to hate christians more since they reject the basic tenet of their faith that there is only one god a belief they share with judaism. there is no god but allah was a rallying cry against christians.

Blame god, he started all the religions sets them one against the other by exhorting all the various followers to go and and seek concerts in his name and then condemns to hell all those who pick the wrong one what kind of idiot god does that?

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:44 am

gmc;1473355 wrote: Pretty good going that who were these muslims the jews are supposed to have attacked and did anyone tell the prophet he had been beaten to it and muslims already existed?

The problem is rather tricker than it might at first seem. It's a core tenet of Islam that Moses and those he led were Muslim, not Jewish. The Jews, according to Islam, are those of their descendants who subsequently "had changed the religion of Prophet Musa / Moses (as) into hidebound dogma and its principles into hollow ritual". Jesus criticized this, thereby also being a perfectly good Muslim himself, surrounded by Pharisees and Sadducees who weren't.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:25 am

spot;1473333 wrote: Tom Lehrer was a Jewish song-writing entertainer who understood self-depreciation. "Is" not "was". As far as I know, still active at age 86.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:38 am

The murder of Jewish shoppers at a Parisian kosher supermarket three weeks ago, after the killing of 12 people at the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, sent shivers down the spines of many Jews, not because it was the first such event but because it has become part of a pattern. In 2014, four were killed at the Jewish Museum in Brussels. In 2012, a rabbi and three young children were murdered at a Jewish school in Toulouse. In 2008 in Mumbai, four terrorists separated themselves from a larger group killing people in the city’s cafes and hotels and made their way to a small Orthodox Jewish center, where they murdered its young rabbi and his pregnant wife after torturing and mutilating them. As the Sunday Times of London reported about the attack, “the terrorists would be told by their handlers in Pakistan that the lives of Jews were worth 50 times those of non-Jews.

Here's my problem with this kind of discussion... how many people were killed at the deli? and the magazine? Has anyone bothered to list the religion of the magazine victims? Does anyone even care?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:42 am

I took a class on the Holocaust in college. It was unexpected. Instead of some dry, boring history class, we met each Wednesday and had different living survivors of the Holocaust to speak with us and answer questions. It was very intimate, since the class was only about ten people, and it was unexpectedly intense and moving. For example, one of the speakers, a woman, told us that at the prison camp Treblinka, there was no restroom. Instead there was a thirty foot deep, steep-walled trench. You had to back up to it to do your business. The guards favorite pastime? Seeing if they could rush up and push someone in before that person could drop to the ground, and crawl away. If you fell in, you died down there in the sewage.

I was also surprised to learn the "pogroms," the extermination of whole Jewish villages man, woman, and child, had been going on widely in Russia and in other parts of Europe for centuries. Hitler wasn't the original anti-Semite, just the first to industrialize the slaughter of Jews.

After listening to their hair-raising, heart breaking stories, to me there is no more despicable human being than a Holocaust denier.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:28 pm

spot;1473327 wrote: You all three agree that "it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates"?

That's sheer unjustifiable paranoia. What are you trying to claim? A majority of Europeans are anti-Semitic? A claim that large needs evidence, and terrorist killings represent nobody but their paymasters. I am not a paymaster of terrorist killers and neither, I strongly suspect, are any other Europeans.

Maybe not a majority, yet.

Increasing radical Muslim population, it won't be long.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:36 pm

flopstock;1473362 wrote: Here's my problem with this kind of discussion... how many people were killed at the deli? and the magazine? Has anyone bothered to list the religion of the magazine victims? Does anyone even care?I think that's kind of an "apples and oranges" argument.

The Jews were killed because they were Jews, they were shopping for food, not insulting Muslims.

I've never seen a copy of the magazine, but my understanding is that insult and outrageousness are its forte, especially in regard to religion. I have no doubt that devout members of other religions also disliked the magazine, as far as I know, none of those people ever killed anyone there.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:41 pm

It's only a matter of time (and not a very long time at the current rate) when rightly or wrongly the rest of the world will decide that enough is enough & decide that it's time to totally blitz those countries that sympathise / support the extremists. Even those countries that have, to date, been most tolerant are now having public opinion roused against the Islamists (note, that Islamist is not necessarily the same as an Islamic, although it's understandable that 90% of the non-Islamic populace will not be aware of this - or even care). In their campaign of violence to promote their cause, as with all terrorist campaigns, they just end up shooting themselves in the foot.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:41 pm

FourPart;1473341 wrote: What I was agreeing with was that the Muslims & the Jews have been at each other's throats since Moses freed them from slavery under the Pharoah & led them across the Red Sea. It's not changed over Millenia. I doubt we'll see it come to an end in our lifetimes.

Problem is the the whole Moses story is thousands of years old and Muhammad was born 570 c.e., 1445 years ago. 500 years after the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:45 pm

spot;1473342 wrote: You don't seriously think that folk-tale has any resemblance to actual history, do you?

Really?

Okay, let's say it has if you like.

And these Muslims they encountered were who, precisely?

The existing occupants of the Promised Land?

Really?

Okay, let's say they were if you like.

That'll annoy a few Zionists, I bet.

You got it backwards.

Whenever the first Muslim went to the land then known as Palestine, native inhabitants included Jews.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:49 pm

flopstock;1473362 wrote: Here's my problem with this kind of discussion... how many people were killed at the deli? and the magazine? Has anyone bothered to list the religion of the magazine victims? Does anyone even care?

Religion of the workers at the magazine was not an issue to the savages who murdered those people. The deli was selected because it was expected to be full of Jews .

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:53 pm

In the same way Religion was not an issue to those that perished in the 9-11 attacks. I imagine that a good many of those were Muslim as well.

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:21 pm

tude dog;1473369 wrote: You got it backwards.

*I* didn't get it backwards! I was quoting the post which *did* get it backwards, and showing the anomaly through the very unsubtle use of sarcasm!

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:04 pm

tude dog;1473321 wrote: As I view it, it is not the Muslims but much of Europe which hates.

It would be easy to just say get rid of the Muslims and everything would be fine and dandy for Joos.

One needs to look at it from an intelligent perspective and not make absurd conclusions, not passing any judgement on you personally. I cannot speak for all of Europe but I can speak for Sweden. We are VERY critical of Israel's land-grabbing policies and – therefore – VERY pro-Palestinian. We see the situation in clear terms ¦. Israel is the bad guy and the Palestinians are suffering at the hand of a near-Nazi Israel regime. But we are an educated people. Israel does not equal Jewry and Palestinian does not equal Terrorist. The bottom line is that we are not anti-Semites. One specific (HUGE, and growing larger by the day) segment of our immigrant community is very much anti-Semite, however. But this observation is not an official one. Anyone with Swedish citizenship is a “Swede by our laws. We make no distinction about "what part" of our population is this or that. That would be against our humanitarian politico-philosophy. There are only 3 ways to make the observation I speak of: 1). Personal experience 2). Ask a Rabbi 3). Get a cop drunk and ask him to speak “off the record. So, from my little perspective I'd say that you are wrong about who thinks what.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:08 pm

I wold hardly refer to Israel as being Nazi, seeing it was as a result of the Nazis, and the Palestinian support for the Nazis that they were awarded Israel in the first place.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:36 pm

FourPart;1473426 wrote: I wold hardly refer to Israel as being Nazi, seeing it was as a result of the Nazis, and the Palestinian support for the Nazis that they were awarded Israel in the first place.

You're being naïve, ignoring the facts, making an absurd conclusion (to what I actually said) and the only motivation you offer is "this equals that" but those are your own conclusion without the benefit of definition to support yourself.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:33 pm

TD: "everything would be fine and dandy for Joos."

Would you not spell it that way, please? I'm mildly offended. TY

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:58 pm

AnneBoleyn;1473437 wrote: TD: "everything would be fine and dandy for Joos."

Would you not spell it that way, please? I'm mildly offended. TY

OK

No offence intended.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:00 pm

spot;1473391 wrote: *I* didn't get it backwards! I was quoting the post which *did* get it backwards, and showing the anomaly through the very unsubtle use of sarcasm!

Fine you quoted, in part someone else and I didn't catch it.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:14 pm

High Threshold;1473424 wrote: One needs to look at it from an intelligent perspective and not make absurd conclusions, not passing any judgement on you personally. I cannot speak for all of Europe

So far so good.

High Threshold;1473424 wrote: but I can speak for Sweden.

Be honest, I don't know all that much about Sweden and I'll take your word for it.

High Threshold;1473424 wrote: We are VERY critical of Israel's land-grabbing policies and – therefore – VERY pro-Palestinian. We see the situation in clear terms ¦. Israel is the bad guy and the Palestinians are suffering at the hand of a near-Nazi Israel regime.

I don't know what "near-Nazi" means, except to be inflammatory.

High Threshold;1473424 wrote: But we are an educated people. Israel does not equal Jewry and Palestinian does not equal Terrorist. The bottom line is that we are not anti-Semites. One specific (HUGE, and growing larger by the day) segment of our immigrant community is very much anti-Semite, however. But this observation is not an official one. Anyone with Swedish citizenship is a “Swede by our laws. We make no distinction about "what part" of our population is this or that. That would be against our humanitarian politico-philosophy. There are only 3 ways to make the observation I speak of: 1). Personal experience 2). Ask a Rabbi 3). Get a cop drunk and ask him to speak “off the record. So, from my little perspective I'd say that you are wrong about who thinks what.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:12 am

What I object to is when they equate criticism of israeli actions in palestine with anti-semitism as a way to end the discussion. If you stop me beating this arab you are being anti-semite.

It's the same if you criticise american foreign policy it does not mean you are anti-american it's used as a way to deflect the discussion away from the real issue. Very few british politcians will use the patriotic card as we tend to laugh at them and equate them with right wing fascism.

Besides some of the most prejudiced people I have met have been muslim - ask them how they would react of their daughter came home with a christian. Growing up I knew couples who found themselves having problems with their parents because they were going out with a catholic - or a protestant. That still happens in northern ireland and parts of glasgow. You have to be religious to be a proper bigot and religious to think everyone that disagrees with you is prejudiced against you. It saves thinking about it ifn you dismiss criticism as simple prejudice. .

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:08 am

gmc;1473468 wrote: What I object to is when they equate criticism of israeli actions in palestine with anti-semitism as a way to end the discussion. If you stop me beating this arab you are being anti-semite.

It's the same if you criticise american foreign policy it does not mean you are anti-american it's used as a way to deflect the discussion away from the real issue. Very few british politcians will use the patriotic card as we tend to laugh at them and equate them with right wing fascism.

I've been waiting decades to find the right words and string them together correctly and concisely. You beat me to it.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:15 am

tude dog;1473442 wrote:

I don't know what "near-Nazi" means, except to be inflammatory.

I am not aware that it is even possible to be inflammatory towards a country. Is it?