It will take Muslims to defeat Isis

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:44 am

This has been discussed by all the politicians from different countries for several weeks as to a strategy that would defeat Isis and get rid of them permanately and finally some news pundit that I heard the other day put it quite well and it's what I believe. He said it would take Muslims to defeat Isis and nothing else would work.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:49 am

Lon;1473653 wrote: This has been discussed by all the politicians from different countries for several weeks as to a strategy that would defeat Isis and get rid of them permanately and finally some news pundit that I heard the other day put it quite well and it's what I believe. He said it would take Muslims to defeat Isis and nothing else would work.
I couldn't agree more.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:08 pm

Yup. Pretty much anything we in the West do will probably just win them more converts in our countries.

They may actually get the Sunni and Shi'ite nations working together to defeat them.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:25 am

Wishful thinking.

I like this commentary Does the barbarism have a logic?, by Charles Krauthammer to me makes a lot of sense.

So what's the objective? To destabilize Jordan by drawing it deeply into the conflict.

At first glance, this seems to make no sense. The savage execution has mobilized Jordan against the Islamic State and given it solidarity and unity of purpose.

Yes, for now.

People want quick results.

Jordan is a more vulnerable target because, unlike the U.S., it can be destabilized. For nearly a century Jordan has been a miracle of stability —

Compared to Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, similarly created, Jordan is a wonder. But a fragile one. Its front-line troops and special forces are largely Bedouin. The Bedouin are the backbone of the Hashemite monarchy, but they are a minority. Most of the population is non-indigenous Palestinians,

Most consequential, however, is the Muslim Brotherhood with its strong Jordanian contingent — as well as more radical jihadist elements, some sympathetic to the Islamic State. An estimated 1,500 Jordanians have already joined the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. Others remain home, ready to rise when the time is right.

We should be careful what we wish for. Americans worship at the shrine of multilateralism. President Obama's Islamic State strategy is to create a vast coalition with an Arab/Kurdish vanguard and America leading from behind with air power.

The coalition is allegedly 60 strong. (And doing what?)

What's missing, of course, are serious boots on the ground, such as Syria's once-ascendant non-jihadist rebels, which Obama contemptuously dismissed and allowed to wither. And the Kurds, who are willing and able to fight, yet remain scandalously undersupplied by this administration.

Missing most of all is Turkey. It alone has the size and power to take on the Islamic State. But doing so would strengthen, indeed rescue, Turkey's primary nemesis, the Iranian-backed Bashar al-Assad regime in Damascus.

Turkey's price for entry was an American commitment to help bring down Assad. Obama refused. So Turkey sits it out.

That idiot who occupies the White House is still kissing the Iranian Mullahs collective butts as they work to create a nuclear weapon.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:13 am

Lon;1473653 wrote: It will take Muslims to defeat Isis

It will take Muslims to defeat American Capito-Fascisn as well. The only question is which Muslims? ISIS? Al Qaida? Or a conglomerate Muhajedeen force?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:33 am

The difficulty comes in trying to threaten a people who consider it a sacred honour to die in their cause. It's a totally different mindset. In a game where only one side abides by the rules, it's the side that makes his own rules up that has the distinct advantage.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:47 am

FourPart;1473852 wrote: The difficulty comes in trying to threaten a people who consider it a sacred honour to die in their cause. It's a totally different mindset. In a game where only one side abides by the rules, it's the side that makes his own rules up that has the distinct advantage.

Yes. That is the difficulty. What can you threaten them with?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:59 am

High Threshold;1473855 wrote:

Yes. That is the difficulty. What can you threaten them with?

Well..........the British coated their shells with pig fat,allegedly,during the Indian Mutiny..................that might slow em down a bit.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:10 pm

Bruv;1473857 wrote: Well..........the British coated their shells with pig fat,allegedly,during the Indian Mutiny..................that might slow em down a bit.

I was thinking along those lines myself. But this is a new breed. They have no problem to dress up as orthodox Jews in order to board an Israeli bus and blow themselves up .... or detonate their TNT belt at the open market amongst the sides of pork hanging on the hook.

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:59 am

Dear America,

If it was a justified decision to attack Iraq, it is much more so to attack ISIS. It's as simple as it looks.

Go ahead. The innocent victims are waiting for you to prove their blood wasn't spilled in vain.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:57 am

Lenn;1474276 wrote: Dear America,

If it was a justified decision to attack Iraq, it is much more so to attack ISIS. It's as simple as it looks.

Go ahead. The innocent victims are waiting for you to prove their blood wasn't spilled in vain.

What are you saying? That you agree the invasion of Irak was justified therefore attacking ISIS is also justified? Or are you saying that the invasion of Irak was UNjustified, therefore ...... neither is the attack on ISIS?

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:48 am

Well, there is yet another possibility - I think that the decision to attack on Iraq was not justified, but I really cannot say that about the potential decision to attack on ISIS. The latter would be well justified. And in my opinion the US should not wait for muslims to do the job. It's pathetic.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:52 am

Making war on a country is one thing (justified or not). Policing a terrorist organisation which has no allegiance to any country & is moving on another country is another thing altogether - especially when help is requested by the officially recognised government of that country. The two situations are poles apart.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:23 pm

FourPart;1474281 wrote: Making war on a country is one thing (justified or not). Policing a terrorist organisation which has no allegiance to any country & is moving on another country is another thing altogether - especially when help is requested by the officially recognised government of that country. The two situations are poles apart.

Lenn and Four Part.

If you think of yourself as part of "the west" then you cannot blame ISIS from thinking they are part of the "middle east". If THE WEST perpetrates an illegal war and an invasion of a MIDDLE EAST nation then the people who identify with that region have as much illegal right to strike back on those who did the same. Any other way to look at it is a double standard. I don't support double standards.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:28 pm

High Threshold;1474289 wrote: Lenn and Four Part.

If you think of yourself as part of "the west" then you cannot blame ISIS from thinking they are part of the "middle east". If THE WEST perpetrates an illegal war and an invasion of a MIDDLE EAST nation then the people who identify with that region have as much illegal right to strike back on those who did the same. Any other way to look at it is a double standard. I don't support double standards.

So, an armed gang of fanatical Muslims decide to march on London to storm the House of Commons & take over the Government, savagely murdering any innocent civillians they can capture en route, then it wouldn't be justified to move in to stop them? That seems to be what you're saying.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:36 pm

FourPart;1474290 wrote: So, an armed gang of fanatical Muslims decide to march on London to storm the House of Commons & take over the Government, savagely murdering any innocent civillians they can capture en route, then it wouldn't be justified to move in to stop them? That seems to be what you're saying.

Really? It seems to me that you are saying that if an Army of illegal invading westerners decide to ravage Irak & take over the oil fields, savagely raping, torturing and murdering any home defense military force and innocent men, women, and children en route, then it wouldn't be justified for Arab forces such as Al Qaida, Mujahedeen, and ISIS to move in to stop them or take the fight to the western nations that are responsible.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:36 pm

High Threshold;1474289 wrote: Lenn and Four Part.

If you think of yourself as part of "the west" then you cannot blame ISIS from thinking they are part of the "middle east". If THE WEST perpetrates an illegal war and an invasion of a MIDDLE EAST nation then the people who identify with that region have as much illegal right to strike back on those who did the same. Any other way to look at it is a double standard. I don't support double standards.

I get it.

beheadings of Egyptian Coptic Christians in Libya

:-5

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:38 pm

tude dog;1474294 wrote: I get it.

No you don't.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Who knew the answer to the Isis terror is just so simple?

‘Jobs for ISIS’ Isn’t Quite as Stupid as You Think

‘We cannot win this war by killing them, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said on February 17. “We need in the medium and longer term to go after the root causes that lead people to join these groups, whether it is lack of opportunity for jobs . . .

#JobsForISIS

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:03 pm

tude dog;1474298 wrote: Who knew the answer to the Isis terror is just so simple?

‘Jobs for ISIS’ Isn’t Quite as Stupid as You Think

#JobsForISIS

"We cannot win this war by killing them, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said on February 17. “We need in the medium and longer term to go after the root causes that lead people to join these groups, whether it is lack of opportunity for jobs . . .

"THE ROOT CAUSE". Yes, the root cause. How about stop giving them a reason to retaliate, thus making any grievance and violence towards us unjustified? Is that solution equally "so simple"?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:32 pm

High Threshold;1474301 wrote: "THE ROOT CAUSE". Yes, the root cause. How about stop giving them a reason to retaliate, thus making any grievance and violence towards us unjustified? Is that solution equally "so simple"?

From murdering Coptic Christians to ISIS VIDEO: 17 CAGED KURDISH FIGHTERS PARADED THROUGH STREETS IN IRAQ

Just what is their message?

Tell me.

What would it take to appease them?

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:48 pm

High Threshold;1474289 wrote: Lenn and Four Part.

If you think of yourself as part of "the west" then you cannot blame ISIS from thinking they are part of the "middle east". If THE WEST perpetrates an illegal war and an invasion of a MIDDLE EAST nation then the people who identify with that region have as much illegal right to strike back on those who did the same. Any other way to look at it is a double standard. I don't support double standards.

Yes, I think of myself as a part of the West, and moreover, I'm pretty sure that we - the Westerners - are right in what we say and what we do. Maybe the invasion of Iraq wasn't the best what we could do, but nevertheless it wasn't anything similar to the ISIS' murderous activity. So there is no parallelism here and now we have every right to retaliate. And well, this is what the US and its allies should do. Just to delete ISIS from the maps. I wonder why it hasn't happened yet. Whoever is waiting instead of fighting, is responsible for growing on the day-to-day basis amounts of innocent victims.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:55 pm

tude dog;1474306 wrote: From murdering Coptic Christians to ISIS VIDEO: 17 CAGED KURDISH FIGHTERS PARADED THROUGH STREETS IN IRAQ

Just what is their message?

Tell me.

What would it take to appease them?

You can't cross your fingers behind your back and shout “Olly olly oxen free! every time you commit an atrocity but then cry “Foul! when your victim strikes back. Well, I suppose that you could but sister Magdalene will rap your knuckles with a ruler and give you a good scolding when you return to the classroom. Of course, you want me to believe that you sucker punching Arabs in Irak has nothing to do with the reaction of Arabs in Egypt, or Libya, or Syria or any other part of the Arab or Muslim world ¦ is that right?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:16 pm

Lenn;1474310 wrote: Yes, I think of myself as a part of the West, and moreover, I'm pretty sure that we - the Westerners - are right in what we say and what we do. Maybe the invasion of Iraq wasn't the best what we could do, but nevertheless it wasn't anything similar to the ISIS' murderous activity. So there is no parallelism here and now we have every right to retaliate. And well, this is what the US and its allies should do. Just to delete ISIS from the maps. I wonder why it hasn't happened yet. Whoever is waiting instead of fighting, is responsible for growing on the day-to-day basis amounts of innocent victims.

No parallel? A so-called Democratic nations lies about WMD's. It lies. You do know what a lie is, yes? It applies to the international counsel for permission to invade the nation it claims has these non-existent WMD's. The UN refuses to give their blessing on insufficient evidence. So this so-called Democratic, UN member nation tells the UN to stuff itself and invades anyway, rapes, tortures and murders a million innocent men, women, and children. Really quite astounding and for the sake of argument let's call it “murderous activity.

So now ISIS (with a nose-full) decides to retaliate and astound the world with its own sort of illegal invasion and “murderous activity. Oh! I inadvertently discovered a parallel! Fancy that!

Also, you say that you have every right to retaliate. So why are you complaining about ISIS? You have every right ¦. they have every right ¦. you have every right again ¦.. they have every right again ¦... ISIS hasn't told you to stop retaliating. Why should you tell them they should? They are eager to fight. Aren't you?

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:19 pm

Lenn;1474280 wrote: Well, there is yet another possibility - I think that the decision to attack on Iraq was not justified, but I really cannot say that about the potential decision to attack on ISIS. The latter would be well justified. And in my opinion the US should not wait for muslims to do the job. It's pathetic.

I disagree. Whatever was done in the past that set up the opportunity for these murderers to come out from their holes is in the past. If you start laying blame, you must go back to at least the days of the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and probably could even go back to the first and second Crusades. But none of that really matters, now.

We have THIS to deal with and it must be done by the current governments of the region, with the help of the European community.

The US should back away and offer logistical support, not spearhead the drive. We have done quite enough, already, and will be living with the fall-out from the Bush Wars for generations to come.

Someone else needs to step up to this one.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:24 pm

High Threshold;1474311 wrote: You can't cross your fingers behind your back and shout “Olly olly oxen free! every time you commit an atrocity but then cry “Foul! when your victim strikes back. Well, I suppose that you could but sister Magdalene will rap your knuckles with a ruler and give you a good scolding when you return to the classroom. Of course, you want me to believe that you sucker punching Arabs in Irak has nothing to do with the reaction of Arabs in Egypt, or Libya, or Syria or any other part of the Arab or Muslim world ¦ is that right?

NO !

I am very specific. What does it take to appease ISIS so they don't murder poor Egyptians looking for work or caging and parading Kurdish fighters in a similar manner they burned to death a Jordanian pilot?

* NEWS FLASH *

just in

ISIS burned 45 people to death in seized Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi, police chief says

ISIS seized al-Baghdadi, a town in westen Iraq, last week. The report of a mass execution by way of fire comes several weeks after ISIS released a video of a Jordanian fighter pilot being burned to death.

Again I ask, what does it take to appease them?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:46 pm

IS's next goal....

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:48 pm

High Threshold;1474312 wrote: So this so-called Democratic, UN member nation tells the UN to stuff itself and invades anyway, rapes, tortures and murders a million innocent men, women, and children. Really quite astounding and for the sake of argument let's call it “murderous activity.

Do you have any piece of evidence that our (western) forces really used rape, tortures and murders? Because as far as I know, the regular military forces of democratic, western countries just don't do this kind of things. As far as I know, I'm pretty sure.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:05 pm

Lenn;1474320 wrote: Do you have any piece of evidence that our (western) forces really used rape, tortures and murders? Because as far as I know, the regular military forces of democratic, western countries just don't do this kind of things. As far as I know, I'm pretty sure.

Or put videos of beheadings on YouTube.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:41 pm

FourPart;1474321 wrote: Or put videos of beheadings on YouTube.

No............they put live TV feeds of the "successful" obliteration of a country's capital, the twisted charred bodies of the dead men women and children are hidden from our view, thankfully.

Maybe sights like this provoked the rise of western born jihadists, the same as napalm crisped bodies gave rise to anti war protests in the 60's.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:51 pm

Or images of this before the invasion of Iraq...

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:51 pm

Bruv;1474326 wrote: No............they put live TV feeds of the "successful" obliteration of a country's capital, the twisted charred bodies of the dead men women and children are hidden from our view, thankfully.

Maybe sights like this provoked the rise of western born jihadists, the same as napalm crisped bodies gave rise to anti war protests in the 60's.

Hmm,

So they behead Poor Egyptians, looking or work.

Tell us, just what justifies murdering people just because they are Christians?

Please explain cause I just don't get it.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:10 pm

[QUOTE=Bruv;1474326]No............they put live TV feeds of the "successful" obliteration of a country's capital, the twisted charred bodies of the dead men women and children are hidden from our view, thankfully.

Maybe sights like this provoked the rise of western born jihadists, the same as napalm crisped bodies gave rise to anti war protests in the 60's.

Baghdad was not obliterated.

I ask you, what is it ISIS wants?

How do we appease, satisfy historic grievances?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:15 pm

Takes me back to when I was a kid brother of two older ones and the arguments about "Who started it"?

What the world needs now is my Dad to come home from work and knock all our heads together...................if only.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:18 pm

tude dog;1474330 wrote: Baghdad was not obliterated.

No bias in THAT retort.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:19 pm

tude dog;1474330 wrote: I ask you, what is it ISIS wants?

Justice as they see it ?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:23 pm

Bruv;1474332 wrote: No bias in THAT retort.

Got me there buddy.

So I go looking for just what damage was done.

I would be happy to tell you that I found that Baghdad "successful" obliteration of a country's capital, the twisted charred bodies of the dead men women and children are hidden from our view, thankfully. if I could find it.

Maybe you can help me.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:52 pm

LarsMac;1474314 wrote: ..... We ....... will be living with the fall-out from the Bush Wars for generations to come. .....

Yes.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:00 pm

tude dog;1474316 wrote: ..... What does it take to appease ISIS so they don't murder poor Egyptians looking for work or caging and parading Kurdish fighters in a similar manner they burned to death a Jordanian pilot?

Again I ask, what does it take to appease them?

By whom? The hat makers of Topeka or do you have someone else in mind?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:08 pm

Lenn;1474320 wrote: Do you have any piece of evidence that our (western) forces really used rape, tortures and murders?
Yes. But I can't be bothered to link you to Abu Graib and Guantanamo, the international protest, and the American chain of command (right on up) claiming justification. I'm a little bit sceptical of your earnestness, to be perfectly frank.

Lenn;1474320 wrote: Because as far as I know, the regular military forces of democratic, western countries just don't do this kind of things. As far as I know, I'm pretty sure.

"As far as you know", eh? Rhetoric isn't worth much in the real world. Hmmmmm, are you really quite certain you'd like to continue this discussion?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:11 pm

Bruv;1474326 wrote: ..... Maybe sights like this provoked the rise of western born jihadists, the same as napalm crisped bodies gave rise to anti war protests in the 60's.

Food for thought.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:13 pm

FourPart;1474328 wrote: Or images of this before the invasion of Iraq...

..... which nothing to do with Irak. Ain't that sumpin'!

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:38 am

High Threshold;1474342 wrote: Yes. But I can't be bothered to link you to Abu Graib and Guantanamo

You mean what they are in Muslim propaganda?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:22 am

tude dog;1474336 wrote: Got me there buddy.

So I go looking for just what damage was done.

I would be happy to tell you that I found that Baghdad if I could find it.

Maybe you can help me.

I am sorry but I just don't follow your wording, I have read and re-read it, but you seem to be saying that Baghdad suffered little during the several instances of bombing over the years.........since 1991 that continued for many years.

You seem to be saying it was OK to blast homes and civilians, because they deserved it, or perhaps you meant that the bombing was targeted......but we all make mistakes....and sorry for that.

Or you could be saying the thousands and thousands of bombs dropped on Iraq by US aircraft (which you helped pay for incidentally) were ineffective and did little damage.......nothing near to using such a term as *obliterated* anyway.

And then you ask............seriously...........what got up their keister, what do these people want from us ?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:11 pm

Lenn;1474353 wrote: You mean what they are in Muslim propaganda?

The torture at Abu Graib and Guantanamo is nothing more than "Muslim propaganda"? Are you in a coma? Seriously. :yh_frustr

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:42 am

I wish we were more supportive of Egypt and others that are going after ISIS, but I understand that us being more supportive would probably lose them support at home.

Lenn · Post by **Lenn** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:17 pm

High Threshold;1474430 wrote: The torture at Abu Graib and Guantanamo is nothing more than "Muslim propaganda"? Are you in a coma? Seriously. :yh_frustr

As I see, you live in Sweden. And so this is weird what you say. Don't you feel attached to our common western values as strongly at least as not to undermine the fundaments of our civilization by accusing our boys of such things?

You won't be better off when Europe is islamic, I can assure you. The fact you are now defending *them* and their respective values, won't prevent *them* from hurting you, your wife and your son. They don't know gratefulness. It's purely our western notion. Think about it sometimes.

Maybe you are simply joking or trolling?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:59 pm

High Threshold;1474341 wrote: By whom? The hat makers of Topeka or do you have someone else in mind?

I am talking to you.

Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

..... What does it take to appease ISIS so they don't murder poor Egyptians looking for work or caging and parading Kurdish fighters in a similar manner they burned to death a Jordanian pilot?

Again I ask, what does it take to appease them?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:19 pm

Lenn;1474475 wrote: As I see, you live in Sweden. And so this is weird what you say. Don't you feel attached to our common western values as strongly at least as not to undermine the fundaments of our civilization by accusing our boys of such things?

You won't be better off when Europe is islamic, I can assure you. The fact you are now defending *them* and their respective values, won't prevent *them* from hurting you, your wife and your son. They don't know gratefulness. It's purely our western notion. Think about it sometimes.

Maybe you are simply joking or trolling?

:yh_dohWhere is your “off switch? You just keep inventing one absurd idea after another.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:24 pm

tude dog;1474486 wrote: I am talking to you.

Yes, I know that you are talking to me but my question is whose responsibility do you think it is "to appease ISIS"? You keep asking what it takes to appease them but you haven't yet said who you think it is that should do the "appeasing". Once you've decided that then perhaps your question can be answered.