After 9/11 anyone who questioned why or if we should be doing something as a nation was accused of not being patriotic. Your love of country was questioned. And if anyone dared to disagree with the politician behind those actions, that politician (or their spokesman) waved a verbal American Flag to shut you up.
Today it is Race.
I'd feel sorrier for him if he wasn't so fine with questioning another persons love of country, but I don't see racism in his statement.
Ex-NY mayor Rudy Giuliani doubles down on anti-Obama remark | MSNBC
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
Maybe Rudy is judging Obama by Obama's actions, not his words.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
Well, anyone who thinks any politician loves them is in for a shock. Except, possibly, their mothers.
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Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
flopstock;1474463 wrote: After 9/11 anyone who questioned why or if we should be doing something as a nation was accused of not being patriotic. Your love of country was questioned. And if anyone dared to disagree with the politician behind those actions, that politician (or their spokesman) waved a verbal American Flag to shut you up.
Today it is Race.
I'd feel sorrier for him if he wasn't so fine with questioning another persons love of country, but I don't see racism in his statement.
Ex-NY mayor Rudy Giuliani doubles down on anti-Obama remark | MSNBC
The video wouldn't load for me. That is to say “my video wouldn't load ¦. oh I hate how they pretend they are doing me a favour!
Anyway, I read what is written beneath it and I have to agree with you. Race – Patriotism – Communism – etc. It makes you want to take them by both of their ears in your hands and P-U-L-L! But that's how they get the uneducated and unemployed to think they are a part of a society that considers them under-achieving misfits and cowards ¦.. by joining the military and “going over.
As far as racism (perhaps negro-cum-Muslim, i.e. non Christian) goes, I guess it's in his cryptic statement referring to Obama, “He wasn’t brought up the way you were brought up and I was brought up, through love of this country. One has to interpret it but it does sound like an "off-coloured" remark.
Today it is Race.
I'd feel sorrier for him if he wasn't so fine with questioning another persons love of country, but I don't see racism in his statement.
Ex-NY mayor Rudy Giuliani doubles down on anti-Obama remark | MSNBC
The video wouldn't load for me. That is to say “my video wouldn't load ¦. oh I hate how they pretend they are doing me a favour!
Anyway, I read what is written beneath it and I have to agree with you. Race – Patriotism – Communism – etc. It makes you want to take them by both of their ears in your hands and P-U-L-L! But that's how they get the uneducated and unemployed to think they are a part of a society that considers them under-achieving misfits and cowards ¦.. by joining the military and “going over.
As far as racism (perhaps negro-cum-Muslim, i.e. non Christian) goes, I guess it's in his cryptic statement referring to Obama, “He wasn’t brought up the way you were brought up and I was brought up, through love of this country. One has to interpret it but it does sound like an "off-coloured" remark.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474505 wrote: As far as racism (perhaps negro-cum-Muslim, i.e. non Christian) goes, I guess it's in his cryptic statement referring to Obama, “He wasn’t brought up the way you were brought up and I was brought up, through love of this country. One has to interpret it but it does sound like an "off-coloured" remark.
I read that as being Blatantly Racist - even more so when he seemed to realise what he had said & had to cover it up by saying he didn't intend it to be Racist. It's like saying "I'm not racist, but those blacks should know their place. They were happiest when they were slaves".
I read that as being Blatantly Racist - even more so when he seemed to realise what he had said & had to cover it up by saying he didn't intend it to be Racist. It's like saying "I'm not racist, but those blacks should know their place. They were happiest when they were slaves".
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FourPart;1474507 wrote: I read that as being Blatantly Racist ...
I was just trying to be diplomatic.
FourPart;1474507 wrote: ... even more so when he seemed to realise what he had said & had to cover it up by saying he didn't intend it to be Racist.
Trying to be diplomatic again, maybe he meant since the public "misunderstood" him and took it as a racist observation ........ ?
If no one else is looking now, I'd like to say that I agree with you.
I was just trying to be diplomatic.
FourPart;1474507 wrote: ... even more so when he seemed to realise what he had said & had to cover it up by saying he didn't intend it to be Racist.
Trying to be diplomatic again, maybe he meant since the public "misunderstood" him and took it as a racist observation ........ ?
If no one else is looking now, I'd like to say that I agree with you.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
There is an over sensitivity among the PC non racist brigade where any criticism of somebody who happens to be black is turned around as criticism of the persons colour and or background, outlook, loyalties, patriotism,or anything else that separates them from the rest of us.
How can Obama's unusual upbringing be talked about without the facts appearing racist by the over sensitive?
How can Obama's unusual upbringing be talked about without the facts appearing racist by the over sensitive?
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Bruv;1474524 wrote: There is an over sensitivity among the PC non racist brigade where any criticism of somebody who happens to be black is turned around as criticism of the persons colour and or background, outlook, loyalties, patriotism,or anything else that separates them from the rest of us.
How can Obama's unusual upbringing be talked about without the facts appearing racist by the over sensitive?
Your point is taken. But realize that it was a comment in and from a nation that is known for its racist idiosyncrasies. The cauldron over there is permanently simmering close to the rim. With that in mind one would expect a deeper “on-the-spot clarification in order to avoid suspicion of racist implications. None was forthcoming.
Note that the comment resembled People like them. If your neighbour is black and wears glasses and you suspect him of nicking your garden shears – and your comment about him is “What can you expect from people like him? Should I assume you mean “people who wear glasses?
I mean, you are probably right ¦. but I won't give you more than a 51% chance of it.
How can Obama's unusual upbringing be talked about without the facts appearing racist by the over sensitive?
Your point is taken. But realize that it was a comment in and from a nation that is known for its racist idiosyncrasies. The cauldron over there is permanently simmering close to the rim. With that in mind one would expect a deeper “on-the-spot clarification in order to avoid suspicion of racist implications. None was forthcoming.
Note that the comment resembled People like them. If your neighbour is black and wears glasses and you suspect him of nicking your garden shears – and your comment about him is “What can you expect from people like him? Should I assume you mean “people who wear glasses?
I mean, you are probably right ¦. but I won't give you more than a 51% chance of it.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
"People like them" in criticising Obama might mean communists, social health care to many Americans is the thin edge of the wedge toward socialism and the breakdown of the American way of life.
How......seriously.....can the 'problem' of black on black murder and the reasons behind it be addressed without bringing race into the debate ?
I believe the day we can talk openly without censure about the obvious differences between white and blacks........whatever they are.....is the day racism dies.
The "Differences"? that I am talking about.......the higher incarceration rates for black criminals, the lower wages of blacks. These are documented and known facts, to discuss them without mentioning race.......is racist. At the moment the default setting is to condemn any mention of the ongoing 'differences' in terms of race, once we can overcome that hurdle without embarrassment or recrimination we are halfway there.
How......seriously.....can the 'problem' of black on black murder and the reasons behind it be addressed without bringing race into the debate ?
I believe the day we can talk openly without censure about the obvious differences between white and blacks........whatever they are.....is the day racism dies.
The "Differences"? that I am talking about.......the higher incarceration rates for black criminals, the lower wages of blacks. These are documented and known facts, to discuss them without mentioning race.......is racist. At the moment the default setting is to condemn any mention of the ongoing 'differences' in terms of race, once we can overcome that hurdle without embarrassment or recrimination we are halfway there.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Bruv;1474531 wrote: "People like them" in criticising Obama might mean communists ¦..
It might mean anything at all, uh ¦but is this the time for me to point out that Obama is no communist?
Bruv;1474531 wrote: ¦ social health care to many Americans is the thin edge of the wedge toward socialism and the breakdown of the American way of life.
The general, wide-spread, American incomprehension of political matters and political philosophy is irrelevant.
Bruv;1474531 wrote: How......seriously.....can the 'problem' of black on black murder and the reasons behind it be addressed without bringing race into the debate ? I believe the day we can talk openly without censure about the obvious differences between white and blacks........whatever they are.....is the day racism dies.
Of course. But that's not really what we are debating.
Bruv;1474531 wrote: The "Differences"? that I am talking about.......the higher incarceration rates for black criminals, the lower wages of blacks. These are documented and known facts, to discuss them without mentioning race.......is racist. At the moment the default setting is to condemn any mention of the ongoing 'differences' in terms of race, once we can overcome that hurdle without embarrassment or recrimination we are halfway there.
Yes, yes, yes! But we're talking about a comment made by an American politician. He left his comment open to interpretation. He shouldn't have.
Sorry my American friends, but it is time to face some facts:
1). “John loves pizza and that is why he ate it every day last week and why he will probably eat it all this week too. In American English it would often be, “John loves pizza and that is why John ate pizza every day last week and why John will probably eat pizza all this week too.
2). “I don't think this government is working as well as it ought to. In American English it would often be, “I love this great nation of ours and I think it is the best country in the world, but I think the government has made a mistake.
3). “A new guy was hired yesterday. I think he might be gay. In American English it would often be, “A new guy was hired yesterday. I think he might be gay, not that there is anything wrong with that.
Americans are accustomed to having everything spelled out for them, otherwise they are accused, lost, and misunderstood. Giuliani knows this and ought to have said exactly what he meant. That Americans might have assumed his comment was racist is no surprise.
It might mean anything at all, uh ¦but is this the time for me to point out that Obama is no communist?
Bruv;1474531 wrote: ¦ social health care to many Americans is the thin edge of the wedge toward socialism and the breakdown of the American way of life.
The general, wide-spread, American incomprehension of political matters and political philosophy is irrelevant.
Bruv;1474531 wrote: How......seriously.....can the 'problem' of black on black murder and the reasons behind it be addressed without bringing race into the debate ? I believe the day we can talk openly without censure about the obvious differences between white and blacks........whatever they are.....is the day racism dies.
Of course. But that's not really what we are debating.
Bruv;1474531 wrote: The "Differences"? that I am talking about.......the higher incarceration rates for black criminals, the lower wages of blacks. These are documented and known facts, to discuss them without mentioning race.......is racist. At the moment the default setting is to condemn any mention of the ongoing 'differences' in terms of race, once we can overcome that hurdle without embarrassment or recrimination we are halfway there.
Yes, yes, yes! But we're talking about a comment made by an American politician. He left his comment open to interpretation. He shouldn't have.
Sorry my American friends, but it is time to face some facts:
1). “John loves pizza and that is why he ate it every day last week and why he will probably eat it all this week too. In American English it would often be, “John loves pizza and that is why John ate pizza every day last week and why John will probably eat pizza all this week too.
2). “I don't think this government is working as well as it ought to. In American English it would often be, “I love this great nation of ours and I think it is the best country in the world, but I think the government has made a mistake.
3). “A new guy was hired yesterday. I think he might be gay. In American English it would often be, “A new guy was hired yesterday. I think he might be gay, not that there is anything wrong with that.
Americans are accustomed to having everything spelled out for them, otherwise they are accused, lost, and misunderstood. Giuliani knows this and ought to have said exactly what he meant. That Americans might have assumed his comment was racist is no surprise.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474536 wrote: It might mean anything at all, uh ¦but is this the time for me to point out that Obama is no communist?
The general, wide-spread, American incomprehension of political matters and political philosophy is irrelevant.
Only one of those statements is your opinion, don't know which one is provable..........but.....CBS ? ....or Here .........Or Here
The general, wide-spread, American incomprehension of political matters and political philosophy is irrelevant.
Only one of those statements is your opinion, don't know which one is provable..........but.....CBS ? ....or Here .........Or Here
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Bruv;1474541 wrote: Only one of those statements is your opinion, don't know which one is provable.....
"It might mean anything at all"?
Bruv;1474541 wrote: .....but.....CBS ? ....or Here .........Or Here
They can't make up their minds. Communist? Muslim? Kenyan? But when you toss it all into the ring it comes up ¦.... Racism. Liberal-thinking Americans wanted Bush OUT. But that was because of his lying, warmongering, stupidity. I mean, they had the goods on him. He was caught red-handed. Now it's the majority of dumb-downed population that want Obama out because of his alleged ¦.. ah ¦. I don't know. Calling someone a communist in the U.S. is the standard insult for someone you can't pin down but would oh-so-very-much like to. It is the equivalent to hitting below the belt.
"It might mean anything at all"?
Bruv;1474541 wrote: .....but.....CBS ? ....or Here .........Or Here
They can't make up their minds. Communist? Muslim? Kenyan? But when you toss it all into the ring it comes up ¦.... Racism. Liberal-thinking Americans wanted Bush OUT. But that was because of his lying, warmongering, stupidity. I mean, they had the goods on him. He was caught red-handed. Now it's the majority of dumb-downed population that want Obama out because of his alleged ¦.. ah ¦. I don't know. Calling someone a communist in the U.S. is the standard insult for someone you can't pin down but would oh-so-very-much like to. It is the equivalent to hitting below the belt.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474548 wrote: "It might mean anything at all"?
They can't make up their minds. Communist? Muslim? Kenyan? But when you toss it all into the ring it comes up ¦.... Racism. Liberal-thinking Americans wanted Bush OUT. But that was because of his lying, warmongering, stupidity. I mean, they had the goods on him. He was caught red-handed. Now it's the majority of dumb-downed population that want Obama out because of his alleged ¦.. ah ¦. I don't know. Calling someone a communist in the U.S. is the standard insult for someone you can't pin down but would oh-so-very-much like to. It is the equivalent to hitting below the belt.
You never actually call someone a Communist, here. It's far more sideways that that.
"Your idea would lead us down the path to Socialism." would be the more likely comment.
Or, "You are taking us down the slippery slope to Socialism."
I get that kind of stuff a lot down at the Coffee shop.
They can't make up their minds. Communist? Muslim? Kenyan? But when you toss it all into the ring it comes up ¦.... Racism. Liberal-thinking Americans wanted Bush OUT. But that was because of his lying, warmongering, stupidity. I mean, they had the goods on him. He was caught red-handed. Now it's the majority of dumb-downed population that want Obama out because of his alleged ¦.. ah ¦. I don't know. Calling someone a communist in the U.S. is the standard insult for someone you can't pin down but would oh-so-very-much like to. It is the equivalent to hitting below the belt.
You never actually call someone a Communist, here. It's far more sideways that that.
"Your idea would lead us down the path to Socialism." would be the more likely comment.
Or, "You are taking us down the slippery slope to Socialism."
I get that kind of stuff a lot down at the Coffee shop.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
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LarsMac;1474563 wrote: You never actually call someone a Communist, here. It's far more sideways that that.
I can take your word for it. I was merely responding to Bruv's link:
In His Own Words: Obama's Communist Manifesto - CBS News
LarsMac;1474563 wrote: "Your idea would lead us down the path to Socialism." would be the more likely comment.
Or, "You are taking us down the slippery slope to Socialism."
"Slippery slope to Socialism"? :wah: Funny. What happened to "Pinko"?
LarsMac;1474563 wrote: I get that kind of stuff a lot down at the Coffee shop.
Is that what they think of you or Obama?
I can take your word for it. I was merely responding to Bruv's link:
In His Own Words: Obama's Communist Manifesto - CBS News
LarsMac;1474563 wrote: "Your idea would lead us down the path to Socialism." would be the more likely comment.
Or, "You are taking us down the slippery slope to Socialism."
"Slippery slope to Socialism"? :wah: Funny. What happened to "Pinko"?
LarsMac;1474563 wrote: I get that kind of stuff a lot down at the Coffee shop.
Is that what they think of you or Obama?
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474564 wrote:
"Slippery slope to Socialism"? :wah: Funny. What happened to "Pinko"?
Is that what they think of you or Obama?
Yes.
"Slippery slope to Socialism"? :wah: Funny. What happened to "Pinko"?
Is that what they think of you or Obama?
Yes.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
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LarsMac;1474565 wrote: Yes.
I see what you mean.
I see what you mean.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
Some Swedish Political Correctness Bird Names changed
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Bruv;1474574 wrote: Some Swedish Political Correctness Bird Names changed
As well as.........
"Swedes have long enjoyed the illusion of innocence, of freedom from Nazi-related guilt, but now, amid a welter of revelations, the country is slowly coming to terms with an historical truth that is more complicated than the idealistic neutrality thought to have been maintained throughout the Second World War.
Some Swedes were in fact engaged in close collaboration with Nazi Germany and their government deliberately chose to draw a thick veil over their activities when the war ended."
Murky truth of how a neutral Sweden covered up its collaboration with Nazis - Europe - World - The Independent
And..........
"How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
2011/10/05 | WesternCulture
Posted on 10/5/2011, 12:21:38 PM by WesternCulture
The matter of Nazi-German troop transfer through Finland and Sweden during World War II remains one of the most controversial issues of Scandinavian history beside Finland's co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War, and the export of Swedish iron ore during World War II.
The Swedish concession to German demands during and after the German invasion of Norway in April–June, 1940, is often viewed as a significant breach with prior neutrality-policies, that were held in high regard in many smaller European nations. After they were publicly acknowledged, the Soviet Union immediately requested a similar but more far-reaching concession from Finland, which invited the Third Reich to trade similar transit rights through Finland in return for weaponry badly needed by the Finns. This was the first significant proof of a changed, more favorable, German policy vis--vis Finland, that ultimately would put Finland in a position of co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union (June 25, 1941 – September 4, 1944)."
How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
I have only one point in these, & numerous other, citations. We are all Human Beings on the Blue Dot of Earth, & sooner or later most of us suck.
As well as.........
"Swedes have long enjoyed the illusion of innocence, of freedom from Nazi-related guilt, but now, amid a welter of revelations, the country is slowly coming to terms with an historical truth that is more complicated than the idealistic neutrality thought to have been maintained throughout the Second World War.
Some Swedes were in fact engaged in close collaboration with Nazi Germany and their government deliberately chose to draw a thick veil over their activities when the war ended."
Murky truth of how a neutral Sweden covered up its collaboration with Nazis - Europe - World - The Independent
And..........
"How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
2011/10/05 | WesternCulture
Posted on 10/5/2011, 12:21:38 PM by WesternCulture
The matter of Nazi-German troop transfer through Finland and Sweden during World War II remains one of the most controversial issues of Scandinavian history beside Finland's co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War, and the export of Swedish iron ore during World War II.
The Swedish concession to German demands during and after the German invasion of Norway in April–June, 1940, is often viewed as a significant breach with prior neutrality-policies, that were held in high regard in many smaller European nations. After they were publicly acknowledged, the Soviet Union immediately requested a similar but more far-reaching concession from Finland, which invited the Third Reich to trade similar transit rights through Finland in return for weaponry badly needed by the Finns. This was the first significant proof of a changed, more favorable, German policy vis--vis Finland, that ultimately would put Finland in a position of co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union (June 25, 1941 – September 4, 1944)."
How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
I have only one point in these, & numerous other, citations. We are all Human Beings on the Blue Dot of Earth, & sooner or later most of us suck.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
Finland was at war with the Soviets, so they ended up in the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of relationship with Germany. Not entirely unlike the relationship the British and Americans had with the Soviets.
And there were a number of high-ranking Swedes who were quite in agreement with the Nazis, in spite of the neutrality act.
In fact, many in Europe and the Americas were sympathetic to the Nazis.
While the nation may have declared neutrality, there were people behind the scenes able to accomplish things unofficially.
Blaming the nation of Sweden for they actions is like blaming Saudi Arabia or Iraq for 9/11
And there were a number of high-ranking Swedes who were quite in agreement with the Nazis, in spite of the neutrality act.
In fact, many in Europe and the Americas were sympathetic to the Nazis.
While the nation may have declared neutrality, there were people behind the scenes able to accomplish things unofficially.
Blaming the nation of Sweden for they actions is like blaming Saudi Arabia or Iraq for 9/11
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
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Bruv;1474574 wrote: Some Swedish Political Correctness Bird Names changed
This is one of my pet peeves - so I couldn't bear to read the whole thing ¦. and you only know the half of it: Sweets, bakery goods ..... Thing is, the insulting vocabulary is often only so in some other language – not in ours! Laputa bröd is a specific Swedish recipe for bread. However, “La puta means “the whore in Spanish. I'm not sure if it's been given the chop and replaced for some other name yet but it is definitely on the agenda.
“Negerboll is (was) a Swedish chocolate delectable, now called “Chokladboll . It is similar to the German “Negerküsse. Neger is not an offensive word in Swedish or in German. It means “black. That's all. It is only by the American usage of “nigger that the racial frenzy was set into motion. Should we expect the names of the Rio Negro, Nigeria and Niger to be changed?
This is one of my pet peeves - so I couldn't bear to read the whole thing ¦. and you only know the half of it: Sweets, bakery goods ..... Thing is, the insulting vocabulary is often only so in some other language – not in ours! Laputa bröd is a specific Swedish recipe for bread. However, “La puta means “the whore in Spanish. I'm not sure if it's been given the chop and replaced for some other name yet but it is definitely on the agenda.
“Negerboll is (was) a Swedish chocolate delectable, now called “Chokladboll . It is similar to the German “Negerküsse. Neger is not an offensive word in Swedish or in German. It means “black. That's all. It is only by the American usage of “nigger that the racial frenzy was set into motion. Should we expect the names of the Rio Negro, Nigeria and Niger to be changed?
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LarsMac;1474587 wrote: Finland was at war with the Soviets, so they ended up in the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of relationship with Germany. Not entirely unlike the relationship the British and Americans had with the Soviets.
And there were a number of high-ranking Swedes who were quite in agreement with the Nazis, in spite of the neutrality act.
In fact, many in Europe and the Americas were sympathetic to the Nazis.
While the nation may have declared neutrality, there were people behind the scenes able to accomplish things unofficially.
Blaming the nation of Sweden for they actions is like blaming Saudi Arabia or Iraq for 9/11
I do not understand why you chose this thread to discuss Swedish neutrality, LarsMac. Shouldn't you have introduced a new thread for that subject?
Anyway, the idea of political neutrality is grossly misunderstood, or perhaps its definition needs context before it can be understood “on an individual basis.
Neutrality – the national sort – means that the nation doesn't take sides. Swedish neutrality does not, however, forbid its citizens from doing so. We may enlist in any nation's military force and fight for any nation, against any other, in any uniform. I am an example of that. I fought in another part of the world in the uniform of another nation. I was subjected to no retribution or punishment when I returned home, unlike the U.S. that forbids its citizens from enlisting in any “foreign military force or indeed even seeking employment in the service of any other government. The punishment for doing so being “loss of American citizenship. Note the quotes.
HOWEVER, during WW II the Swedish Government did actively spy upon those German forces transiting the Swedish corridor, reporting all intelligence directly to London. So, Sweden (the government) WAS NOT neutral during the second world war. Our government also issued Swedish nationality to tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi occupied Budapest – as well as concentration camp inmates – and transported them to Sweden through the outstanding work of the Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg. It demonstrates the Swedish government's courage in the face of Nazi fervour in the question of “The Final Solution, if not full blown anti-Nazi determination on the Swedish national level.
As far as the individual Swedish citizen's right (during WW II) to act upon his/her own political convictions, there were hundreds if not thousands of Swedish volunteers fighting on all fronts: Pro-Western Swedes fighting with the British/Americans – Pro-Nazi Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR – anti-Communist Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR on the eastern front – Pro–Communist Swedes fighting with the Soviet Union against the Nazis – and (as you have correctly pointed out) Pro-Finland Swedish volunteers fighting against the USSR in Finland. After all, we regards the Finns as our cousins – due, in most part to the large Swedish-speaking minority of Finns there.
And there were a number of high-ranking Swedes who were quite in agreement with the Nazis, in spite of the neutrality act.
In fact, many in Europe and the Americas were sympathetic to the Nazis.
While the nation may have declared neutrality, there were people behind the scenes able to accomplish things unofficially.
Blaming the nation of Sweden for they actions is like blaming Saudi Arabia or Iraq for 9/11
I do not understand why you chose this thread to discuss Swedish neutrality, LarsMac. Shouldn't you have introduced a new thread for that subject?
Anyway, the idea of political neutrality is grossly misunderstood, or perhaps its definition needs context before it can be understood “on an individual basis.
Neutrality – the national sort – means that the nation doesn't take sides. Swedish neutrality does not, however, forbid its citizens from doing so. We may enlist in any nation's military force and fight for any nation, against any other, in any uniform. I am an example of that. I fought in another part of the world in the uniform of another nation. I was subjected to no retribution or punishment when I returned home, unlike the U.S. that forbids its citizens from enlisting in any “foreign military force or indeed even seeking employment in the service of any other government. The punishment for doing so being “loss of American citizenship. Note the quotes.
HOWEVER, during WW II the Swedish Government did actively spy upon those German forces transiting the Swedish corridor, reporting all intelligence directly to London. So, Sweden (the government) WAS NOT neutral during the second world war. Our government also issued Swedish nationality to tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi occupied Budapest – as well as concentration camp inmates – and transported them to Sweden through the outstanding work of the Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg. It demonstrates the Swedish government's courage in the face of Nazi fervour in the question of “The Final Solution, if not full blown anti-Nazi determination on the Swedish national level.
As far as the individual Swedish citizen's right (during WW II) to act upon his/her own political convictions, there were hundreds if not thousands of Swedish volunteers fighting on all fronts: Pro-Western Swedes fighting with the British/Americans – Pro-Nazi Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR – anti-Communist Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR on the eastern front – Pro–Communist Swedes fighting with the Soviet Union against the Nazis – and (as you have correctly pointed out) Pro-Finland Swedish volunteers fighting against the USSR in Finland. After all, we regards the Finns as our cousins – due, in most part to the large Swedish-speaking minority of Finns there.
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474590 wrote: I do not understand why you chose this thread to discuss Swedish neutrality, LarsMac. Shouldn't you have introduced a new thread for that subject?
Anyway, the idea of political neutrality is grossly misunderstood, or perhaps its definition needs context before it can be understood “on an individual basis.
Neutrality – the national sort – means that the nation doesn't take sides. Swedish neutrality does not, however, forbid its citizens from doing so. We may enlist in any nation's military force and fight for any nation, against any other, in any uniform. I am an example of that. I fought in another part of the world in the uniform of another nation. I was subjected to no retribution or punishment when I returned home, unlike the U.S. that forbids its citizens from enlisting in any “foreign military force or indeed even seeking employment in the service of any other government. The punishment for doing so being “loss of American citizenship. Note the quotes.
HOWEVER, during WW II the Swedish Government did actively spy upon those German forces transiting the Swedish corridor, reporting all intelligence directly to London. So, Sweden (the government) WAS NOT neutral during the second world war. Our government also issued Swedish nationality to tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi occupied Budapest – as well as concentration camp inmates – and transported them to Sweden through the outstanding work of the Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg. It demonstrates the Swedish government's courage in the face of Nazi fervour in the question of “The Final Solution, if not full blown anti-Nazi determination on the Swedish national level.
As far as the individual Swedish citizen's right (during WW II) to act upon his/her own political convictions, there were hundreds if not thousands of Swedish volunteers fighting on all fronts: Pro-Western Swedes fighting with the British/Americans – Pro-Nazi Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR – anti-Communist Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR on the eastern front – Pro–Communist Swedes fighting with the Soviet Union against the Nazis – and (as you have correctly pointed out) Pro-Finland Swedish volunteers fighting against the USSR in Finland. After all, we regards the Finns as our cousins – due, in most part to the large Swedish-speaking minority of Finns there.
I suppose it would have been more clear had I quoted the post to which I was making the reply.
AnneBoleyn;1474580 wrote: As well as.........
"Swedes have long enjoyed the illusion of innocence, of freedom from Nazi-related guilt, but now, amid a welter of revelations, the country is slowly coming to terms with an historical truth that is more complicated than the idealistic neutrality thought to have been maintained throughout the Second World War.
Some Swedes were in fact engaged in close collaboration with Nazi Germany and their government deliberately chose to draw a thick veil over their activities when the war ended."
Murky truth of how a neutral Sweden covered up its collaboration with Nazis - Europe - World - The Independent
And..........
"How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
2011/10/05 | WesternCulture
Posted on 10/5/2011, 12:21:38 PM by WesternCulture
The matter of Nazi-German troop transfer through Finland and Sweden during World War II remains one of the most controversial issues of Scandinavian history beside Finland's co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War, and the export of Swedish iron ore during World War II.
The Swedish concession to German demands during and after the German invasion of Norway in April–June, 1940, is often viewed as a significant breach with prior neutrality-policies, that were held in high regard in many smaller European nations. After they were publicly acknowledged, the Soviet Union immediately requested a similar but more far-reaching concession from Finland, which invited the Third Reich to trade similar transit rights through Finland in return for weaponry badly needed by the Finns. This was the first significant proof of a changed, more favorable, German policy vis--vis Finland, that ultimately would put Finland in a position of co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union (June 25, 1941 – September 4, 1944)."
How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
I have only one point in these, & numerous other, citations. We are all Human Beings on the Blue Dot of Earth, & sooner or later most of us suck.
Anyway, the idea of political neutrality is grossly misunderstood, or perhaps its definition needs context before it can be understood “on an individual basis.
Neutrality – the national sort – means that the nation doesn't take sides. Swedish neutrality does not, however, forbid its citizens from doing so. We may enlist in any nation's military force and fight for any nation, against any other, in any uniform. I am an example of that. I fought in another part of the world in the uniform of another nation. I was subjected to no retribution or punishment when I returned home, unlike the U.S. that forbids its citizens from enlisting in any “foreign military force or indeed even seeking employment in the service of any other government. The punishment for doing so being “loss of American citizenship. Note the quotes.
HOWEVER, during WW II the Swedish Government did actively spy upon those German forces transiting the Swedish corridor, reporting all intelligence directly to London. So, Sweden (the government) WAS NOT neutral during the second world war. Our government also issued Swedish nationality to tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi occupied Budapest – as well as concentration camp inmates – and transported them to Sweden through the outstanding work of the Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg. It demonstrates the Swedish government's courage in the face of Nazi fervour in the question of “The Final Solution, if not full blown anti-Nazi determination on the Swedish national level.
As far as the individual Swedish citizen's right (during WW II) to act upon his/her own political convictions, there were hundreds if not thousands of Swedish volunteers fighting on all fronts: Pro-Western Swedes fighting with the British/Americans – Pro-Nazi Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR – anti-Communist Swedes fighting with the Wehrmacht against the USSR on the eastern front – Pro–Communist Swedes fighting with the Soviet Union against the Nazis – and (as you have correctly pointed out) Pro-Finland Swedish volunteers fighting against the USSR in Finland. After all, we regards the Finns as our cousins – due, in most part to the large Swedish-speaking minority of Finns there.
I suppose it would have been more clear had I quoted the post to which I was making the reply.
AnneBoleyn;1474580 wrote: As well as.........
"Swedes have long enjoyed the illusion of innocence, of freedom from Nazi-related guilt, but now, amid a welter of revelations, the country is slowly coming to terms with an historical truth that is more complicated than the idealistic neutrality thought to have been maintained throughout the Second World War.
Some Swedes were in fact engaged in close collaboration with Nazi Germany and their government deliberately chose to draw a thick veil over their activities when the war ended."
Murky truth of how a neutral Sweden covered up its collaboration with Nazis - Europe - World - The Independent
And..........
"How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
2011/10/05 | WesternCulture
Posted on 10/5/2011, 12:21:38 PM by WesternCulture
The matter of Nazi-German troop transfer through Finland and Sweden during World War II remains one of the most controversial issues of Scandinavian history beside Finland's co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War, and the export of Swedish iron ore during World War II.
The Swedish concession to German demands during and after the German invasion of Norway in April–June, 1940, is often viewed as a significant breach with prior neutrality-policies, that were held in high regard in many smaller European nations. After they were publicly acknowledged, the Soviet Union immediately requested a similar but more far-reaching concession from Finland, which invited the Third Reich to trade similar transit rights through Finland in return for weaponry badly needed by the Finns. This was the first significant proof of a changed, more favorable, German policy vis--vis Finland, that ultimately would put Finland in a position of co-belligerence with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union (June 25, 1941 – September 4, 1944)."
How Sweden aided Nazi-Germany
I have only one point in these, & numerous other, citations. We are all Human Beings on the Blue Dot of Earth, & sooner or later most of us suck.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
LarsMac;1474650 wrote: I suppose it would have been more clear had I quoted the post to which I was making the reply.
No harm done. I won't hold it against you. :wah:
No harm done. I won't hold it against you. :wah:
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
High Threshold;1474662 wrote: No harm done. I won't hold it against you. :wah:
Your graciousness is incomparable.
Your graciousness is incomparable.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
LarsMac;1474692 wrote: Your graciousness is incomparable.
You are unanimous in that.
You are unanimous in that.
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Race has become the new 'shut up the dissenter' button.
LarsMac;1474692 wrote: Your graciousness is incomparable.
I know. :yh_clown
I know. :yh_clown