FIFA furore

[Bruv]

The Fifa corruption probe turned into another cold war-style quarrel between Russia and the US on Thursday, as President Vladimir Putin denounced Washington’s investigation as another case of illegal meddling by a bullying superpower.

Is it all about the Russian World Cup ?

Or are they all corrupt b$&*ards ?

[halfway]

The nature of man showcased. Power, greed and corruption are tempting to every man.

[gmc]

halfway;1479826 wrote: The nature of man showcased. Power, greed and corruption are tempting to every man.


How you react to them is what shows the nature of the man. You choose to be greedy and corrupt, temptation is no excuse.

[Snowfire]

As a commentator in the Metro put it this morning. Fifa needs fumigating. If that doesnt work it needs demolishing.

The added fact that they are to continue the process of Presidential elections in the next day or so, with the prospect of another term for Blatter is a travesty. The scandal happened on his watch. He should be accountable. Any politician, given the same circumstances would have gone long ago.

Maybe the Corporate sponsors will have a big say in what happens next.

[halfway]

gmc;1479836 wrote: How you react to them is what shows the nature of the man. You choose to be greedy and corrupt, temptation is no excuse.


Ya think? Brilliant!

[Snowfire]

halfway;1479842 wrote: Ya think? Brilliant!


So much hatred.

[Bruv]

Snowfire;1479839 wrote: The added fact that they are to continue the process of Presidential elections in the next day or so, with the prospect of another term for Blatter is a travesty. The scandal happened on his watch. He should be accountable. Any politician, given the same circumstances would have gone long ago.

Maybe the Corporate sponsors will have a big say in what happens next.


I heard that UEFA members might boycott the election.

And as to the big corporations withdrawing support, I find that worrying too in a strange way.

[FourPart]

Ideally countries should withdraw from participating in the World Cup until FIFA gets its house in order. Realistically, though, I don't see that happening.

[Snowfire]

Bruv;1479847 wrote: I heard that UEFA members might boycott the election.

And as to the big corporations withdrawing support, I find that worrying too in a strange way.


I genuinely think the whole shebang needs dismantling and rebuilding. Blatter seems to think he's above it all, shrugs his shoulders and tells everyone to get on with business. Maybe the sponsors threatening to withdraw on a substantial scale might wake them from their stupour. Arresting a portion of the top echelon certainly hasn't

[Smaug]

halfway;1479842 wrote: Ya think? Brilliant!


What a condescending, individual you seem to be. I agree with GMC that an honourable man resists temptation, not turns a "blind eye", condones OR abets it!

[Smaug]

Is it all about the Russian World Cup ?

Or are they all corrupt b$&*ards ?

I think the Russkies have "spat out their dummy" over the world cup, as it is now in doubt, possibly. As for them all being corrupt illegitimates, need you ask, Bruv?:wah:

[spot]

Has anyone been found guilty of corruption, or did I miss something.

If I'm obliged to choose between Greg Dyke, Destroyer of Worlds, or Mr Blatter, Foreign Gentleman, I'd ditch my ingrained prejudices and go with Mr Blatter every time.

What possible jurisdiction do these rogue empire-building Americans claim over the corruption allegations anyway?

[Smaug]

spot;1479881 wrote: Has anyone been found guilty of corruption, or did I miss something.

If I'm obliged to choose between Greg Dyke, Destroyer of Worlds, or Mr Blatter, Foreign Gentleman, I'd ditch my ingrained prejudices and go with Mr Blatter every time.

What possible jurisdiction do these rogue empire-building Americans claim over the corruption allegations anyway?


No one has been found guilty....yet!....but I'm pretty sure a lot of those arrested will be charged and tried (America has an advanced data gathering system called Prism, and I'm fairly sure they must have many years of FIFA "evidence" on it, hence the furore). As to who will be charged, only time will tell...

If you asked me which one I'd choose (Greg Dyke or Sepp Blatter), I'd say "none of the above". Time for a comprehensive houseclean. FIFA scheduling the World Cup to be played in Quatar in the middle of the European football season must either be;

1. Complete "numpties", incapable of running a pub league or

2. Wide open to corruption allegations, especially if evidence for this has been gathered.

Also, one should consider the climate that these matches will be played in. There are MAJOR health implications for playing high energy sports under such a hot, dry regime. Have you thought about that? I thought not...

As for the Americans being the ones to expose this, who the hell cares? SOMEBODY needed to do so, and I'm glad it's finally happened, long past time!!!

If we in Europe don't have the small ovoid objects to do so, or the ability, then SHAME ON US, is all I can say, so it's no use carping about the Americans. If we had got our own house in order, we wouldn't have needed the lads and lasses from "across the pond" to do it for us, would we?

Note that I have not accused Sepp Blatter of corruption, but it has happened "on his watch".

[spot]

Smaug;1479883 wrote: As for the Americans being the ones to expose this, who the hell cares?Me, evidently. Why on earth is American law, American enforcement, American extradition and American courts applicable world-wide. Why are American extradition agreements one-sided so that their enforcement agencies can judicially kidnap citizens of foreign countries, in foreign countries, for crimes alleged to have happened in foreign countries, but the rest of the world can't grab Americans out of the US on similar terms?

I'll answer my own "why" there - it's because these bastard agents of Manifest Destiny whose country is so Exceptional compel the establishment of such asymmetric arrangements by the use of heavy-handed political and commercial threat - much like what they're applying on Russia recently. Thank goodness the Russian government and citizens have the moral fibre to resist that sort of amoral bullying, I only hope the rest of Europe finds its own nerve to stand up to it eventually.

The Americans do not constitute a World Court. If they want a World Court they can damn well join one on an equal footing.

[spot]

Smaug;1479878 wrote: I think the Russkies have "spat out their dummy" over the world cup, as it is now in doubt, possibly. As for them all being corrupt illegitimates, need you ask, Bruv?:wah:I notice the Americans haven't asked to host anything major since they set fire to the Middle East. I can't imagine they'll ever ask again, for fear of being allowed. What a screwed-up position to have forced on oneself. At least the Russians still have the confidence to host world-class sports championships. The US response, since they no longer can, looks very like sour grapes.

Regarding corruption... I'm reeding today's New York Times article about "Ex-House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert ... paying $3.5 million to someone for his 'misconduct' from years ago". Question: How in God's name does an ex-wrestling-coach acquire $3.5 million to placate a one-time acquaintance from before he went into politics? Answer: He went into politics. There should be a law against legislators improving their financial worth, and that includes what they do after they retire. Show me a lobbyist, and I'll show you a ne'er-do-well.

[Smaug]

(You stated) Me, evidently. Why on earth is American law, American enforcement, American extradition and American courts applicable world-wide. Why are American extradition agreements one-sided so that their enforcement agencies can judicially kidnap citizens of foreign countries, in foreign countries, for crimes alleged to have happened in foreign countries, but the rest of the world can't grab Americans out of the US on similar terms?

On a world-wide scale, I would tend to agree with you on this, bu the subject under discussion was football and FIFA corruption allegations!





(You stated) I'll answer my own "why" there - it's because these bastard agents of Manifest Destiny whose country is so Exceptional compel the establishment of such asymmetric arrangements by the use of heavy-handed political and commercial threat - much like what they're applying on Russia recently. Thank goodness the Russian government and citizens have the moral fibre to resist that sort of amoral bullying, I only hope the rest of Europe finds its own nerve to stand up to it eventually.

Again, I would tend to agree about Europe finding some "backbone" to resist invasive US judicial demands, but you cannot be serious (to quote a famous US tennis player) if you're upholding Russia as MORAL --- just look at their recent (last 15 years...) military expansionist history, and their DREADFUL human rights record. You'd soon "change your tune" if VladdyPu was in charge here (freedom of speech, justice, political opposition and human rights rigorously suppressed)!! Also, you talk of commercial threat, yet IGNORE the fact that the EU buys approx. 80% of it's gas from Russia....so much for Europe, then!

As for a world court, it's only workable if everyone agrees to be bound by it, and uphold it's judgments. Judging by the UN track record, this would be hit-or-miss at best!

[Smaug]

spot;1479885 wrote: I notice the Americans haven't asked to host anything major since they set fire to the Middle East. I can't imagine they'll ever ask again, for fear of being allowed. What a screwed-up position to have forced on oneself. At least the Russians still have the confidence to host world-class sports championships. The US response, since they no longer can, looks very like sour grapes.

Regarding corruption... I'm reeding today's New York Times article about "Ex-House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert ... paying $3.5 million to someone for his 'misconduct' from years ago". Question: How in God's name does an ex-wrestling-coach acquire $3.5 million to placate a one-time acquaintance from before he went into politics? Answer: He went into politics. There should be a law against legislators improving their financial worth, and that includes what they do after they retire. Show me a lobbyist, and I'll show you a ne'er-do-well.


There's nothing stopping the Americans hosting international events, surely. If I was an athlete or sportsman, I would INFINITELY prefer to compete in the US rather than Russia. At least my family won't "disappear" if I don't win....You say the Russkies have confidence? I call it "brass neck", to be honest!

As for the "big-time" lobbyists, I couldn't agree more,Spot! The only exceptions I would make here are amateur "lobbyists" fighting to get support or funding for public/humanitarian reasons, such as for needy folk, and public amenities. That legislators should be able to enrich themselves in this way is also, to my mind, repugnant, but it happens here too, so we can hardly take the moral "high ground", can we?

[spot]

Smaug;1479887 wrote: There's nothing stopping the Americans hosting international events, surely. If I was an athlete or sportsman, I would INFINITELY prefer to compete in the US rather than Russia.


Can you seriously imagine the USA ever allowing hundreds of thousands of foreign spectators into the Homeland again, much less the competitors? All those Muslims with goodness-knows-what going on in the privacy of their own minds? The country's lost its nerve in exchange for allowing Homeland Security and the NSA to do things the Stasi could never have dreamed of achieving.

[Smaug]

spot;1479888 wrote: Can you seriously imagine the USA ever allowing hundreds of thousands of foreign spectators into the Homeland again, much less the competitors? All those Muslims with goodness-knows-what going on in the privacy of their own minds? The country's lost its nerve in exchange for allowing Homeland Security and the NSA to do things the Stasi could never have dreamed of achieving.


At least they HAVE homeland security, and are trying to protect their citizenry, unlike us! Our answer? Allow hundreds of thousands of migrants from OUTSIDE the EU into Europe, and indeed, Britain (approx 300,000 PER ANNUM to Britain...!) with all those hidden agenda's in their minds...

Don't use the Stasi as a paragon or benchmark, it's record is far worse than anyone's, except the Gestapo, or possibly the SS or NKVD!

[spot]

Smaug;1479890 wrote: Don't use the Stasi as a paragon or benchmark, it's record is far worse than anyone's, except the Gestapo, or possibly the SS or NKVD!
Why not? I made a plain accurate statement of fact.

[LarsMac]

Well, simply put, nearly all of the FIFA people in these indictments are directly involved with Football in the US, or the American Continents.

Why would we (The US) not be involved in bringing the accusations?

[Smaug]

spot;1479891 wrote: Why not? I made a plain accurate statement of fact.


Are you conveniently forgetting your history? The Stasi were complicit in Stalin's "Nights of terror", where up to 20 million people of various races, including many Russians, were liquidated wholesale. The Stasi stand in the same revolting, perverted company as the Gestapo, NKVD and the SS, as I've already stated. I cannot understand why you compare the Stasi to the NCA, there's almost no comparison possible (Gitmo excepted). One thing that DOES stand out to me, though, is your apparent anti-American sentiment, which borders on the choleric. It won't be America that kicks down the doors of Europe, but it may well be Russia, though!

Sure, America has been meddling in some things of no concern to them, but so have we, though this does not include the football corruption allegations. They have a perfect right to investigate FIFA, after all, America DO partake of the world cup, and many American players in Britain and Europe come under FIFA juristiction!

As to "the statement of fact", I would agree that the NCA, or any other defence agency have more info and resources available than in the Stasi's time, but they don't BEHAVE like the Stasi, the name of which is etched indelibly on the minds of ordinary Russians who had to live, and suffer, at their hands!

You simply cannot compare the two.

[spot]

The simple problem is that I utterly disagree with your claims. The Stasi was founded in 1950, for example, and Stalin was dead three years later. The "Nights of Terror" you mention is an expression used to refer to the period of collectivization which was essentially complete by the mid-thirties. You can't just jumble the security apparatus of three countries across thirty years and a world war and claim they're indistinguishable, of course they can be distinguished. The Stasi, for example, had absolutely no jurisdiction over any Russian at any time and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

The suffering imposed outside of the Homeland borders by US military and intelligence agencies since the foundation of the Stasi are readily comparable with any Russian excess you could care to name. In terms of death and suffering, the Americans win hands down. The Stasi are nowhere near the game in the first place, they practically never exercised any influence outside of their own borders and they killed remarkably few Germans at home.

If you want to trade US vs Soviet atrocities abroad I'm more than willing to have a thread to that effect.

[spot]

LarsMac;1479898 wrote: Well, simply put, nearly all of the FIFA people in these indictments are directly involved with Football in the US, or the American Continents.

Why would we (The US) not be involved in bringing the accusations?
What on earth does the US legal system have to do with Canada, Mexico, or anywhere else in Central or South America!

[spot]

LarsMac;1479898 wrote: Well, simply put, nearly all of the FIFA people in these indictments are directly involved with Football in the US, or the American Continents.

Why would we (The US) not be involved in bringing the accusations?
What on earth does the US legal system have to do with Canada, Mexico, or anywhere else in Central, Latin or South America!

[LarsMac]

spot;1479905 wrote: What on earth does the US legal system have to do with Canada, Mexico, or anywhere else in Central, Latin or South America!


Not much, but as a member of the organization, we are allowed to take action on behalf of the rest.

Though it would be nice if our legal system could be so aggressive with some of the corruption we have right here in the Good Ol' US of A.

[spot]

LarsMac;1479907 wrote: Not much, but as a member of the organization, we are allowed to take action on behalf of the rest.


"as a member of the organization"? "allowed"? Allowed by whom? That's not how legal jurisdiction works at all.

The general overarching rule is that the crime is prosecuted in the country in which it occurred, and the country where the crime occurred will attempt to extradite the defendant from wherever he's holed up.

There are fuzzy edges when something's illegal in the defendant's home country where she has citizenship but not in the country where the crime occurred, and specific provision has been made that the law in question extends beyond the Homeland for the home country's citizens, in which case domestic legislation will seek prosecution back home.

Beyond that there are an exceptionally small collection of laws governed by international treaty, such as genocide, where every signatory country has a duty to apprehend and either prosecute or pass the defendant to a court claiming jurisdiction.

Finally, and this is the point, there is Exceptional America's interpretation which says American agencies can apply asymmetric extradition across the planet to bring citizens of any country into the USA to be prosecuted under US law for whatever the agency has decided to pile-drive in with, on the specious pretense that an information packet touched a router on US soil. It's solely about American Exceptionalism. People have their lives destroyed just by being looked at by these power-crazed zealots' belief in the Manifest Destiny of their rogue nation.

What is missing from this asymmetric arrangement is a simple one that dates back centuries. We, the rest of the world, have no representation in your legislature, and yet we're subject to the whims of your enforcement agencies. You'd agree it's a situation against which any red-blooded American, were he subject to it, would rebel. So. Turn the table round and sit on the other side of it for a moment. How did that twist-about alter your point of view?

[FourPart]

As the article stated, though, with all the money put safely away in Swiss banks, where they aren't obliged to file their accounts, just how does anyone intend to get the required evidence?

[Bruv]

And so.......Blatter re-elected.

[spot]

And Plastic Cameron black-eyed. There's always a silver lining.

[Smaug]

spot;1479903 wrote: The simple problem is that I utterly disagree with your claims. The Stasi was founded in 1950, for example, and Stalin was dead three years later. The "Nights of Terror" you mention is an expression used to refer to the period of collectivization which was essentially complete by the mid-thirties. You can't just jumble the security apparatus of three countries across thirty years and a world war and claim they're indistinguishable, of course they can be distinguished. The Stasi, for example, had absolutely no jurisdiction over any Russian at any time and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

The suffering imposed outside of the Homeland borders by US military and intelligence agencies since the foundation of the Stasi are readily comparable with any Russian excess you could care to name. In terms of death and suffering, the Americans win hands down. The Stasi are nowhere near the game in the first place, they practically never exercised any influence outside of their own borders and they killed remarkably few Germans at home.

If you want to trade US vs Soviet atrocities abroad I'm more than willing to have a thread to that effect.


I stand corrected on the Stasi, they were the E. German police (secret) from 1950. I've confused them with, and linked them to, the NKVD, who were indeed terrible.

As for starting a thread about US vesus Soviet atrocities abroad, we'll be at it forever!!

Could be interesting, though ....wonder who would score the highest tally?

[LarsMac]

Smaug;1479917 wrote: I stand corrected on the Stasi, they were the E. German police (secret) from 1950. I've confused them with, and linked them to, the NKVD, who were indeed terrible.

As for starting a thread about US vesus Soviet atrocities abroad, we'll be at it forever!!

Could be interesting, though ....wonder who would score the highest tally?


Well the Stasi were not known for spreading goodwill in Eastern Germany, but for atrocities, I think even Hitler's Nazis have a long way to go to catch up with Uncle Joe. The Brits and Americans can't hold a candle to those guys.

[LarsMac]

spot;1479909 wrote: "as a member of the organization"? "allowed"? Allowed by whom? That's not how legal jurisdiction works at all.

The general overarching rule is that the crime is prosecuted in the country in which it occurred, and the country where the crime occurred will attempt to extradite the defendant from wherever he's holed up.

There are fuzzy edges when something's illegal in the defendant's home country where she has citizenship but not in the country where the crime occurred, and specific provision has been made that the law in question extends beyond the Homeland for the home country's citizens, in which case domestic legislation will seek prosecution back home.

Beyond that there are an exceptionally small collection of laws governed by international treaty, such as genocide, where every signatory country has a duty to apprehend and either prosecute or pass the defendant to a court claiming jurisdiction.

Finally, and this is the point, there is Exceptional America's interpretation which says American agencies can apply asymmetric extradition across the planet to bring citizens of any country into the USA to be prosecuted under US law for whatever the agency has decided to pile-drive in with, on the specious pretense that an information packet touched a router on US soil. It's solely about American Exceptionalism. People have their lives destroyed just by being looked at by these power-crazed zealots' belief in the Manifest Destiny of their rogue nation.

What is missing from this asymmetric arrangement is a simple one that dates back centuries. We, the rest of the world, have no representation in your legislature, and yet we're subject to the whims of your enforcement agencies. You'd agree it's a situation against which any red-blooded American, were he subject to it, would rebel. So. Turn the table round and sit on the other side of it for a moment. How did that twist-about alter your point of view?


I have not really studied up on the whole FIFA thing, but the US felt all of those guys violated US Law. I don't much care about the whole thing enough, nor do I have the free time just now, to do the homework required to react to your tirade properly.

So, I'll just leave it with, "Whatever you say, Boss."

[spot]

LarsMac;1479925 wrote: I think even Hitler's Nazis have a long way to go to catch up with Uncle Joe.


You are speaking of someone for whom I hold a particularly high regard. The world would be a distinctly different place today had it not been for the foresight, vision and - how do Americans express it? Get-Go? - of Stalin.

[Bruv]

LarsMac;1479926 wrote: So, I'll just leave it with, "Whatever you say, Boss."


No good getting older if you don't get wiser.......wouldn't that be a good ending for the other post too ? About the Brits and the American and candles ?

[Bruv]

spot;1479932 wrote: You are speaking of someone for whom I hold in particularly high regard. The world would be a distinctly different place today had it not been for the foresight, vision and - how do Americans express it? Get-Go? - of Stalin.


Told you so.......Lars

[spot]

Here we are, this sums up the current state of play.In an uncompromising interview with Swiss television station RTS on Saturday, Mr Blatter said he suspected the arrests were an attempt to "interfere with the congress" at which he was re-elected. "I am not certain, but it doesn't smell good," he said.

He noted that the US had lost out in the bidding for the 2022 World Cup to Qatar while England, another major critic, had lost out to Russia for the right to hold the 2018 World Cup - and that the US was the "number-one sponsor" of the state of Jordan, the homeland of defeated challenger for the Fifa presidency.

Sepp Blatter: Europe's 'hate' campaign against Fifa - BBC News



Both points seem undeniable. The timing and style of the arrests was rank.

[FourPart]

It sounds like what he's been doing is what the Corporate Lobbyists do over here every day. Influencing MPs to scratch their backs by offering certain 'favours'. The Lobbying may, technically, be legal, but the 'favours' don't really happen - that's just an Urban Myth .

[Smaug]

spot;1479932 wrote: You are speaking of someone for whom I hold a particularly high regard. The world would be a distinctly different place today had it not been for the foresight, vision and - how do Americans express it? Get-Go? - of Stalin.


You have got to be joking!! Stalin was a bloody-handed, genocidal,racist, religiously intolerant, psychopathic monster who oversaw the murder of millions upon millions of innocent people to reinforce his position. The fact that Russia was nominally an ally against Germany is almost irrelevant when set against his regimes monstrous crimes. I grant you that should Germany have won WW2, things would have been far worse, but let's not get nostalgic or dewy-eyed over this obscene abomination of a travesty, namely, Stalin.

[Snowfire]

spot;1479936 wrote: Here we are, this sums up the current state of play.In an uncompromising interview with Swiss television station RTS on Saturday, Mr Blatter said he suspected the arrests were an attempt to "interfere with the congress" at which he was re-elected. "I am not certain, but it doesn't smell good," he said.

He noted that the US had lost out in the bidding for the 2022 World Cup to Qatar while England, another major critic, had lost out to Russia for the right to hold the 2018 World Cup - and that the US was the "number-one sponsor" of the state of Jordan, the homeland of defeated challenger for the Fifa presidency.

Sepp Blatter: Europe's 'hate' campaign against Fifa - BBC News



Both points seem undeniable. The timing and style of the arrests was rank.


Well he would say that wouldn't he. Platini is no friend of the FA or of English football. He's been the most outspoken of most against Blatter.

Why do you always see a US conspiracy in anything that happens ? Do you really believe that there has been no corruption within FIFA ? Everyone else does except those hanging on to Blatters purse strings. Sure Blatter has been pumping money into African football - well trickling enough money to make a difference - as well as Oceana but that is where his powerhouse support comes from. Nowhere else.

Sepp Blatter. The man who thought womens football would only progress if they started to wear tighter shirts.

The man is a self serving imbecile along with the other conspiritist Putin who's crying about those nasty Americans spoiling his party again.

More power to the FBI I say. Let them fumigate the entire system or let it rot and we'll start again

[LarsMac]

Smaug;1479941 wrote: You have got to be joking!! Stalin was a bloody-handed, genocidal,racist, religiously intolerant, psychopathic monster who oversaw the murder of millions upon millions of innocent people to reinforce his position. The fact that Russia was nominally an ally against Germany is almost irrelevant when set against his regimes monstrous crimes. I grant you that should Germany have won WW2, things would have been far worse, but let's not get nostalgic or dewy-eyed over this obscene abomination of a travesty, namely, Stalin.


Well, now, he did work very hard at one of Spot's favorite projects.

That of reducing the overall human population on the planet.

[Smaug]

LarsMac;1479944 wrote: Well, now, he did work very hard at one of Spot's favorite projects.

That of reducing the overall human population on the planet.


And he did a damn good job as well! What a bloody-handed monster he was. It almost beggars belief that anyone could laud such a twisted psychopath!! His regime almost certainly liquidated more than Hitler's.

[Smaug]

Snowfire;1479942 wrote: Well he would say that wouldn't he. Platini is no friend of the FA or of English football. He's been the most outspoken of most against Blatter.

Why do you always see a US conspiracy in anything that happens ? Do you really believe that there has been no corruption within FIFA ? Everyone else does except those hanging on to Blatters purse strings. Sure Blatter has been pumping money into African football - well trickling enough money to make a difference - as well as Oceana but that is where his powerhouse support comes from. Nowhere else.

Sepp Blatter. The man who thought womens football would only progress if they started to wear tighter shirts.

The man is a self serving imbecile along with the other conspiritist Putin who's crying about those nasty Americans spoiling his party again.

More power to the FBI I say. Let them fumigate the entire system or let it rot and we'll start again


You're absolutely right, Snowfire. Couldn't have said it better!!

[spot]

Smaug;1479950 wrote: And he did a damn good job as well! What a bloody-handed monster he was. It almost beggars belief that anyone could laud such a twisted psychopath!! His regime almost certainly liquidated more than Hitler's.


I'll ask, because I'm interested to know your belief. You wrote "The fact that Russia was nominally an ally against Germany is almost irrelevant when set against his regimes monstrous crimes." - what do you think actually brought down the Third Reich?

[Smaug]

spot;1479957 wrote: I'll ask, because I'm interested to know your belief. You wrote "The fact that Russia was nominally an ally against Germany is almost irrelevant when set against his regimes monstrous crimes." - what do you think actually brought down the Third Reich?


A combination of the UK (we stood alone until December 1941), The Commonwealth, America and Russia. No Spot, the Russians didn't do it all on their own, and until Operation Barbarossa, had been spying at times, FOR THE GERMANS, by passing allied information back to Germany, so they weren't altruistic at all, merely betrayed by Germany and now fighting for their very existence!! It was a ROGUES ALLIANCE, to coin a phrase. I suppose you're going to give all this credit to Russia now? If so, how predictable, and how deluded!

Tell Me Spot, are you by chance, a member of "Searchlight"? Or just a "Russkophile"?

[spot]

Smaug;1479941 wrote: " To finish first, first you have to finish!" Michael Schumacher.


Could you adjust the source of your quote to Rick Mears please? It niggles me each time I see it.

This, from 1994:

The Executive's Book of Quotations - Page 300

https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0195078365

Julia Vitullo-Martin, ŽJ. Robert Moskin - 1994 - ŽPreview

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QCU ... 22&f=false

says the quote is recorded in Augustine's Laws p.104, which was published in 1984, attributing "To finish first, you must first finish" to Rick Mears.

When the 1984 book came out, recording the saying in print, Michael Schumacher was 15.

"Augustine's laws were a series of tongue in cheek aphorisms put forth by Norman Ralph Augustine, an American aerospace businessman who served as Under Secretary of the Army from 1975 to 1977. In 1984 he published his laws." - wikipedia.

"Rick Ravon Mears (born December 3, 1951 in Wichita, Kansas) is a retired American race car driver. He is one of three men to be four-time winners of the Indianapolis 500 (1979, 1984, 1988, 1991), and the current record-holder for pole positions in the race with six (1979, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991). Mears is also a three-time Indycar national champion (1979, 1981 and 1982)." - wikipedia.

[Smaug]

spot;1479959 wrote: Could you adjust the source of your quote to Rick Mears please? It niggles me each time I see it.

This, from 1994:

The Executive's Book of Quotations - Page 300

https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0195078365

Julia Vitullo-Martin, ŽJ. Robert Moskin - 1994 - ŽPreview

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QCU ... 22&f=false

says the quote is recorded in Augustine's Laws p.104, which was published in 1984, attributing "To finish first, you must first finish" to Rick Mears.

When the 1984 book came out, recording the saying in print, Michael Schumacher was 15.

"Augustine's laws were a series of tongue in cheek aphorisms put forth by Norman Ralph Augustine, an American aerospace businessman who served as Under Secretary of the Army from 1975 to 1977. In 1984 he published his laws." - wikipedia.

"Rick Ravon Mears (born December 3, 1951 in Wichita, Kansas) is a retired American race car driver. He is one of three men to be four-time winners of the Indianapolis 500 (1979, 1984, 1988, 1991), and the current record-holder for pole positions in the race with six (1979, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991). Mears is also a three-time Indycar national champion (1979, 1981 and 1982)." - wikipedia.


Yes, that's no problem. I like to be accurate. Heard "Schumie" say it a few times, so assumed it was "his", as I'd never heard this expression before.

If I was a cruel man, I'd leave it there...:sneaky:

[spot]

Smaug;1479958 wrote: I suppose you're going to give all this credit to Russia now? If so, how predictable, and how deluded! Of course I am, as would any reasonable observer.

The Americans lost under a half million in the armed services in all theatres, around half of those in the Pacific.

Britain and the Commonwealth lost under a half million in the armed services in all theatres, including the Pacific.

The Soviets lost a minimum of 8,700,000 in the armed services in the war zone between the Volga and Berlin. And the only reason they won across that battlefield was that Stalin had forced the industrialization of the Soviet Union throughout the thirties, regardless of the human cost involved because the battle with the Third Reich was clearly unavoidable.

Without that resolve and the consequent preponderance of Soviet armaments, the Normandy landings could never have taken place at all. How you think the Third Reich would have fallen in those circumstances I don't know, but everything done to the Axis powers by Britain, the Commonwealth and the USA was a mere pinprick by comparison with the Eastern Front, an absolute irrelevance to the outcome.

[spot]

Smaug;1479960 wrote: Yes, that's no problem. I like to be accurate. Heard "Schumie" say it a few times, so assumed it was "his", as I'd never heard this expression before.I remember hearing Sir Jack Brabham saying it on television. He was quoting, just like that monotonic German chap.

[FourPart]

I suppose that, 'technically', if you heard him say it, the you could be said to be quoting him, irrespective of whether the words were originally his or not.