It seems that now that the slimeball known as Royston Smith has managed to worm his way into the previously Labour Safe Seat of Southampton Itchen, that he is now under investigation by the Hampshire Constabulary for claims of what is, in essence, Electoral Fraud.
Conservative MP faces claims he helped Ukip candidate target Labour voters | Politics | The Guardian
By helping the UKIP candidate to win votes from the Labour strongholds, he would be fixing the difference of votes in his own favour.
At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made. As yet, however, there is no facility available to do this. All that can be done is to apply pressure to get him to resign, but his previous record as a truly arrogant Councillor, when he brought the City to a standstill, has already demonstrated that he is not the type of person to have any moral character to do this & is more likely to thumb his nose at the electorate until the next election.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480643 wrote: It seems that now that the slimeball known as Royston Smith has managed to worm his way into the previously Labour Safe Seat of Southampton Itchen, that he is now under investigation by the Hampshire Constabulary for claims of what is, in essence, Electoral Fraud.
Conservative MP faces claims he helped Ukip candidate target Labour voters | Politics | The Guardian
By helping the UKIP candidate to win votes from the Labour strongholds, he would be fixing the difference of votes in his own favour.
At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made. As yet, however, there is no facility available to do this. All that can be done is to apply pressure to get him to resign, but his previous record as a truly arrogant Councillor, when he brought the City to a standstill, has already demonstrated that he is not the type of person to have any moral character to do this & is more likely to thumb his nose at the electorate until the next election.
Makes you wonder how often this happens, but doesn't see the "light of day". He should at least be suspended pending investigation, but politicians, police, c.p.s, industrialists and bankers all seem to think they're above the law, or accountability.
The establishment takes care of it's own for as long as is practicable, then often offers up a "scapegoat", or "scapegoats" for sacrifice to satisfy public demand. The rest get away with it.
Amazing how readily these "scapegoats" are accepted...
Conservative MP faces claims he helped Ukip candidate target Labour voters | Politics | The Guardian
By helping the UKIP candidate to win votes from the Labour strongholds, he would be fixing the difference of votes in his own favour.
At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made. As yet, however, there is no facility available to do this. All that can be done is to apply pressure to get him to resign, but his previous record as a truly arrogant Councillor, when he brought the City to a standstill, has already demonstrated that he is not the type of person to have any moral character to do this & is more likely to thumb his nose at the electorate until the next election.
Makes you wonder how often this happens, but doesn't see the "light of day". He should at least be suspended pending investigation, but politicians, police, c.p.s, industrialists and bankers all seem to think they're above the law, or accountability.
The establishment takes care of it's own for as long as is practicable, then often offers up a "scapegoat", or "scapegoats" for sacrifice to satisfy public demand. The rest get away with it.
Amazing how readily these "scapegoats" are accepted...
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Call me naive, where is the problem here ?
Are the figures given in the pamphlets wrong ?
The right wing formed an alliance against the left, what is significantly different in this instance ?
Are the figures given in the pamphlets wrong ?
The right wing formed an alliance against the left, what is significantly different in this instance ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480649 wrote: Call me naive, where is the problem here ?
Are the figures given in the pamphlets wrong ?
The right wing formed an alliance against the left, what is significantly different in this instance ?
Alliances and tactics of this nature are a little dubious, and probably a grey area, possibly in law, certainly in morals, insomuch as the UKIP candidate was used as a "vote diffuser", so to speak. IF the UKIP candidate was RENUMERATED in any was by Royston Smith, is he (the UKIP candidate) not complicit also?
I hasten to add that I make no such FINANCIAL allegations.
Are the figures given in the pamphlets wrong ?
The right wing formed an alliance against the left, what is significantly different in this instance ?
Alliances and tactics of this nature are a little dubious, and probably a grey area, possibly in law, certainly in morals, insomuch as the UKIP candidate was used as a "vote diffuser", so to speak. IF the UKIP candidate was RENUMERATED in any was by Royston Smith, is he (the UKIP candidate) not complicit also?
I hasten to add that I make no such FINANCIAL allegations.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480643 wrote: As yet, however, there is no facility available to do this.
Tosh, of course there is. If he's guilty of electoral fraud he'll be jailed for a significant period. MPs jailed for a significant period are automatically barred from the House and a by-election called. Googling "MPs jailed for more than a year are already ejected from the Commons under existing rules" gets to a background discussion of the issue. It's the Lords who have had a problem ejecting members in jail, not the Commons. That Archer chap springs to mind.
Tosh, of course there is. If he's guilty of electoral fraud he'll be jailed for a significant period. MPs jailed for a significant period are automatically barred from the House and a by-election called. Googling "MPs jailed for more than a year are already ejected from the Commons under existing rules" gets to a background discussion of the issue. It's the Lords who have had a problem ejecting members in jail, not the Commons. That Archer chap springs to mind.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Smaug;1480651 wrote: Alliances and tactics of this nature are a little dubious, and probably a grey area, possibly in law, certainly in morals, insomuch as the UKIP candidate was used as a "vote diffuser", so to speak.
Politics is a dubious business these days.
Redrawing constituency boundaries favourably is the norm on the occasions it has to be done.
Politics is a dubious business these days.
Redrawing constituency boundaries favourably is the norm on the occasions it has to be done.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Alistair Carmichael hires lawyer for battle with constituents | News | The National
Wonder who will pay for his defence, can't see how he has a good case and it says a lot about his character that he see nothing shameful in what he did.
Wonder who will pay for his defence, can't see how he has a good case and it says a lot about his character that he see nothing shameful in what he did.
Another Reason For MP Recall
The basis for the charge is that he handed over confidential information regarding voters' names, addresses & their likely political preferences. This, at the very least, is a contravention of Data Protection.
The whistle blower, in this case, was Kim Rose, the UKIP candidate. Royston Smith, not surprisingly, denies it all. This was not a coalition in the slightest. It was just a blatant attempt to pry potential Labour voters, who would in no way ever vote Tory, away from voting Labour, thus favouring himself. It wouldn't have made any difference as to which party it was, be it Left Wing or Right Wing. The intended outcome would have been the same. Perhaps "by the book" it might be a permissible loophole. As far as ethical behaviour is concerned - that's an entirely different matter.
The whistle blower, in this case, was Kim Rose, the UKIP candidate. Royston Smith, not surprisingly, denies it all. This was not a coalition in the slightest. It was just a blatant attempt to pry potential Labour voters, who would in no way ever vote Tory, away from voting Labour, thus favouring himself. It wouldn't have made any difference as to which party it was, be it Left Wing or Right Wing. The intended outcome would have been the same. Perhaps "by the book" it might be a permissible loophole. As far as ethical behaviour is concerned - that's an entirely different matter.
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480673 wrote: The basis for the charge is that he handed over confidential information regarding voters' names, addresses & their likely political preferences. This, at the very least, is a contravention of Data Protection.
Where was this 'Data' collected ?
Where was this 'Data' collected ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480676 wrote: Where was this 'Data' collected ?
It doesn't say, just:
Former Ukip candidate Kim Rose claims that two months before polling day Smith handed him an envelope marked confidential containing about 55 pages with maps, local election results broken down by area and addresses for traditional Labour voters who had indicated to Tory canvassers they were likely to support Ukip.
Any data stored on anyone is subject to Data Protection without specific release of the same by the person in question - as with the Enhanced List on the Electoral Roll, for instance. Even the Electoral Roll has limited information accessible.
As to how additional data was collected, such as to their potential party allegiances, that is another matter of great concern, especially if that data is being handed over willy-nilly.
It doesn't say, just:
Former Ukip candidate Kim Rose claims that two months before polling day Smith handed him an envelope marked confidential containing about 55 pages with maps, local election results broken down by area and addresses for traditional Labour voters who had indicated to Tory canvassers they were likely to support Ukip.
Any data stored on anyone is subject to Data Protection without specific release of the same by the person in question - as with the Enhanced List on the Electoral Roll, for instance. Even the Electoral Roll has limited information accessible.
As to how additional data was collected, such as to their potential party allegiances, that is another matter of great concern, especially if that data is being handed over willy-nilly.
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart wrote: The basis for the charge is that he handed over confidential information regarding voters' names, addresses & their likely political preferences.
I would ask again, how does this specific combination of information get put together ?
Electoral role including names and addresses maybe.............but political preferences ? Who could compile such data ?
I would ask again, how does this specific combination of information get put together ?
Electoral role including names and addresses maybe.............but political preferences ? Who could compile such data ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480700 wrote: political preferences ? Who could compile such data ?Political parties do. They mark up their electronic copy of the Electoral Roll with the ticks made by their doorstep callers, the phone callers who ask whether you would welcome a lift to the polling station after they've had a positive to "can we count on your vote next week", they carry the ticks forward from one campaign to the next. Have you never been offered a lift to a polling station? They ring those they have marked down as passive supporters on the day of the vote and ask again, I've had calls like that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1480708 wrote: Political parties do. They mark up their electronic copy of the Electoral Roll with the ticks made by their doorstep callers, the phone callers who ask whether you would welcome a lift to the polling station after they've had a positive to "can we count on your vote next week", they carry the ticks forward from one campaign to the next. Have you never been offered a lift to a polling station? They ring those they have marked down as passive supporters on the day of the vote and ask again, I've had calls like that.
Never been offered a lift, it is only a 3 minute walk though, and if I had ever been asked how I voted, which I never have, I would decline politely.
If the information was compiled by any political party, at best it is dodgy, and it belongs to them alone and so can be shared with whoever they choose.
Never been offered a lift, it is only a 3 minute walk though, and if I had ever been asked how I voted, which I never have, I would decline politely.
If the information was compiled by any political party, at best it is dodgy, and it belongs to them alone and so can be shared with whoever they choose.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
I'm not altogether sure why anyone thinks a criminal act has been committed. We went from "electoral fraud" in the opening post to "Perhaps "by the book" it might be a permissible loophole. As far as ethical behaviour is concerned - that's an entirely different matter".
As for lifts, perhaps it's a matter of where you live.
As for lifts, perhaps it's a matter of where you live.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Release of Carmichael’s leaked memo blocked because ‘it would damage French relations’ | Politics | The National
THE Scotland Office has blocked the release of information about a now-infamous leaked memo of a meeting between Nicola Sturgeon and French ambassador Sylvie Bermann.
---
“The refusal to release any information about this memo – the text of which has already been published – on the grounds that it could ‘harm’ relations between France and the UK Government is a smokescreen, and hypocritical in the extreme, he said. Wishart continued: “Any damage to UK-French relations would have been caused by the disgraceful conduct of the former Scottish Secretary in leaking bogus claims about Nicola Sturgeon in the first place – and the way to do the right thing by all concerned now would be to publish the truth and the full facts.
Ypou have to laugh don't you it's like something out of yes minister, don'y mention the memo. What is it about politicians in that they see nothing wrong in lying and smearing someone and think people are gullible enough ton all for it.
THE Scotland Office has blocked the release of information about a now-infamous leaked memo of a meeting between Nicola Sturgeon and French ambassador Sylvie Bermann.
---
“The refusal to release any information about this memo – the text of which has already been published – on the grounds that it could ‘harm’ relations between France and the UK Government is a smokescreen, and hypocritical in the extreme, he said. Wishart continued: “Any damage to UK-French relations would have been caused by the disgraceful conduct of the former Scottish Secretary in leaking bogus claims about Nicola Sturgeon in the first place – and the way to do the right thing by all concerned now would be to publish the truth and the full facts.
Ypou have to laugh don't you it's like something out of yes minister, don'y mention the memo. What is it about politicians in that they see nothing wrong in lying and smearing someone and think people are gullible enough ton all for it.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480712 wrote: If the information was compiled by any political party, at best it is dodgy, and it belongs to them alone and so can be shared with whoever they choose.
Not so. It all comes under the Data Protection Act. While it would be legitimate to say that x% of an area are likely to vote this way & y% that way, to give details of individuals without their express permission would not be legal. This is the sort of thing (DPA) I have to deal with every at work. This is why when you buy things online, for instance they usually have checkboxes ticked by default & put in small print that you give permission to share your information with their "Trusted Partners", which simply means that you are giving your consent for them to sell your personal details to the highest bidder. Your personal information is NOT the property of whoever gathers it & they have no right to sell, give or share it with anyone.
Not so. It all comes under the Data Protection Act. While it would be legitimate to say that x% of an area are likely to vote this way & y% that way, to give details of individuals without their express permission would not be legal. This is the sort of thing (DPA) I have to deal with every at work. This is why when you buy things online, for instance they usually have checkboxes ticked by default & put in small print that you give permission to share your information with their "Trusted Partners", which simply means that you are giving your consent for them to sell your personal details to the highest bidder. Your personal information is NOT the property of whoever gathers it & they have no right to sell, give or share it with anyone.
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480786 wrote: Not so. It all comes under the Data Protection Act. While it would be legitimate to say that x% of an area are likely to vote this way & y% that way, to give details of individuals without their express permission would not be legal. This is the sort of thing (DPA) I have to deal with every at work. This is why when you buy things online, for instance they usually have checkboxes ticked by default & put in small print that you give permission to share your information with their "Trusted Partners", which simply means that you are giving your consent for them to sell your personal details to the highest bidder. Your personal information is NOT the property of whoever gathers it & they have no right to sell, give or share it with anyone.
You know the law, I would guess this is a grey area, in that this data is a very rough sketch and freely given with no obvious personal adverse consequence whoever gets hold of it.
Earlier I mentioned that if asked at an exit poll, I would politely decline, to me that seems the wisest move for everyone.
You know the law, I would guess this is a grey area, in that this data is a very rough sketch and freely given with no obvious personal adverse consequence whoever gets hold of it.
Earlier I mentioned that if asked at an exit poll, I would politely decline, to me that seems the wisest move for everyone.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480793 wrote: Earlier I mentioned that if asked at an exit poll, I would politely decline, to me that seems the wisest move for everyone.I doubt that. Saying you support the Conservatives seems most sensible, they have the volunteers with the nicest cars to get you to the polling station. Why go in your Ford Anglia when you could be chauffeured in a Bentley. You may then vote Labour and be chauffeured back home, having meanwhile prevented some fascist pensioner with a dicky leg from casting his vote.
eta: I just saw the "exit poll" bit - soz, I thought we'd discussed phone opinion polls by local party activists.
eta: I just saw the "exit poll" bit - soz, I thought we'd discussed phone opinion polls by local party activists.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bruv;1480793 wrote: You know the law, I would guess this is a grey area, in that this data is a very rough sketch and freely given with no obvious personal adverse consequence whoever gets hold of it.
Earlier I mentioned that if asked at an exit poll, I would politely decline, to me that seems the wisest move for everyone.
Exit Polls are just based on overall numbers. They don't include names & addresses.
If I pay a company over the phone by Credit / Debit Card, I don't expect those details to be able to be shared with all comers.
Earlier I mentioned that if asked at an exit poll, I would politely decline, to me that seems the wisest move for everyone.
Exit Polls are just based on overall numbers. They don't include names & addresses.
If I pay a company over the phone by Credit / Debit Card, I don't expect those details to be able to be shared with all comers.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1480795 wrote: .....soz....
High five Grand Dad!!!
High five Grand Dad!!!
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480797 wrote: Exit Polls are just based on overall numbers. They don't include names & addresses.
If I pay a company over the phone by Credit / Debit Card, I don't expect those details to be able to be shared with all comers.
Any card details given over the phone can never be stored legally, even for another immediate use of the same details on another account.
Then however these lists that changed hands were acquired, it was informal and very nearly harmless.
If I pay a company over the phone by Credit / Debit Card, I don't expect those details to be able to be shared with all comers.
Any card details given over the phone can never be stored legally, even for another immediate use of the same details on another account.
Then however these lists that changed hands were acquired, it was informal and very nearly harmless.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
The only way we're going to discover whether he broke the law is to see whether a court convicts him, none of us here can guess, we know too little.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1480805 wrote: The only way we're going to discover whether he broke the law is to see whether a court convicts him, none of us here can guess, we know too little.
Which is very unlikely to happen. A Tory MP in a Tory Majority Government, where it's the Government that makes the laws to suit itself.
Incidentally, when I was speaking to my bank regarding the issues I've been having with Southern Water, when I told them that I'd made a payment of £52 in order not to fall behind with payments, I was told that I shouldn't have done that because companies have a habit of continuing to make repeating claims on cards. It may well be that they shouldn't do it, but the fact remains that it does happen. In the same way as people's potential electoral preferences taken from opinion polls should not be shared without first attaining express approval to do so, but as this case shows, it does happen.
Which is very unlikely to happen. A Tory MP in a Tory Majority Government, where it's the Government that makes the laws to suit itself.
Incidentally, when I was speaking to my bank regarding the issues I've been having with Southern Water, when I told them that I'd made a payment of £52 in order not to fall behind with payments, I was told that I shouldn't have done that because companies have a habit of continuing to make repeating claims on cards. It may well be that they shouldn't do it, but the fact remains that it does happen. In the same way as people's potential electoral preferences taken from opinion polls should not be shared without first attaining express approval to do so, but as this case shows, it does happen.
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1480812 wrote: Which is very unlikely to happen. A Tory MP in a Tory Majority Government, where it's the Government that makes the laws to suit itself.
I'm sure it does, yes. That's why supplying most recreational drugs is a crime, so that legitimate companies can't muscle in on the criminal fraternity's major profit centre. The criminal fraternity has excellent lobbyists.
On the other hand, what laws exist are investigated by the police and taken to court by the prosecution service. You will have noticed that MPs are not invulnerable to this process. If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
If the government changes the applicable law it still won't retrospectively change whether it was a crime at the time.
I'm sure it does, yes. That's why supplying most recreational drugs is a crime, so that legitimate companies can't muscle in on the criminal fraternity's major profit centre. The criminal fraternity has excellent lobbyists.
On the other hand, what laws exist are investigated by the police and taken to court by the prosecution service. You will have noticed that MPs are not invulnerable to this process. If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
If the government changes the applicable law it still won't retrospectively change whether it was a crime at the time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1480822 wrote: I'm sure it does, yes. That's why supplying most recreational drugs is a crime, so that legitimate companies can't muscle in on the criminal fraternity's major profit centre. The criminal fraternity has excellent lobbyists.
On the other hand, what laws exist are investigated by the police and taken to court by the prosecution service. You will have noticed that MPs are not invulnerable to this process. If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
If the government changes the applicable law it still won't retrospectively change whether it was a crime at the time.
Excuse me - do we inhabit the same world?
On the other hand, what laws exist are investigated by the police and taken to court by the prosecution service. You will have noticed that MPs are not invulnerable to this process. If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
If the government changes the applicable law it still won't retrospectively change whether it was a crime at the time.
Excuse me - do we inhabit the same world?
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bryn Mawr;1481464 wrote: Excuse me - do we inhabit the same world?
I have asked the same question myself.....................several times.
I have asked the same question myself.....................several times.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bryn Mawr;1481464 wrote: Excuse me - do we inhabit the same world?
Is that not how we define criminality? That a court brings in a guilty verdict?
Perhaps you could share an alternative.
Is that not how we define criminality? That a court brings in a guilty verdict?
Perhaps you could share an alternative.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1481467 wrote: Is that not how we define criminality? That a court brings in a guilty verdict?
Perhaps you could share an alternative.
There are far too many examples of crimes not being brought to trial because of who the accused is for your assumption of inevitability to stand unchallenged.
Perhaps you could share an alternative.
There are far too many examples of crimes not being brought to trial because of who the accused is for your assumption of inevitability to stand unchallenged.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bryn Mawr;1481468 wrote: There are far too many examples of crimes not being brought to trial because of who the accused is for your assumption of inevitability to stand unchallenged.
What we're discussing, from the OP, is "At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made."
Short of a trial and verdict, I honestly can't see how anyone can say "the claims are proved to be true". Can you?
What we're discussing, from the OP, is "At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made."
Short of a trial and verdict, I honestly can't see how anyone can say "the claims are proved to be true". Can you?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1481470 wrote: What we're discussing, from the OP, is "At the moment this is only an investigation into claims. However, if the claims are proved to be true then this toerag should be sacked outright & call for a By-Election made."
Short of a trial and verdict, I honestly can't see how anyone can say "the claims are proved to be true". Can you?
The section I highlighted was :-
If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
I cannot agree that the second clause follows from the first - given that, people will make up their own minds based on the evidence that leaks out.
I totally agree that this is not the way it should be but, unfortunately, it is the way it is.
Short of a trial and verdict, I honestly can't see how anyone can say "the claims are proved to be true". Can you?
The section I highlighted was :-
If what this chap did was actually against a law, there will be a trial and a verdict. That way we'll know whether what he did was actually illegal.
I cannot agree that the second clause follows from the first - given that, people will make up their own minds based on the evidence that leaks out.
I totally agree that this is not the way it should be but, unfortunately, it is the way it is.
Another Reason For MP Recall
It surprises me we bother to go to the expense of trials at all, then. We may as well legalize vigilante mob rule.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
It is generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law. So who has been to trial, had a verdict passed, been convicted & sent to prison?
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1481550 wrote: It is generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law. So who has been to trial, had a verdict passed, been convicted & sent to prison?
It is not generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, that's the trouble.
A case could be made against a number of people. It could result in a trial before an International Court. Once a guilty verdict was announced it would be generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, but not before. At the moment it's entirely speculative. I would be delighted to see it tested in an appropriate court.
It is not generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, that's the trouble.
A case could be made against a number of people. It could result in a trial before an International Court. Once a guilty verdict was announced it would be generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, but not before. At the moment it's entirely speculative. I would be delighted to see it tested in an appropriate court.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1481475 wrote: It surprises me we bother to go to the expense of trials at all, then. We may as well legalize vigilante mob rule.
What's wrong with cleaning up the system so that if a crime is detected and reasonable evidence of who is responsible can be gathered (note, not is gathered as that allows for a lack of will on the part of the Police) then the case will go to trial regardless of who is involved?
What's wrong with cleaning up the system so that if a crime is detected and reasonable evidence of who is responsible can be gathered (note, not is gathered as that allows for a lack of will on the part of the Police) then the case will go to trial regardless of who is involved?
Another Reason For MP Recall
spot;1481560 wrote: It is not generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, that's the trouble.
A case could be made against a number of people. It could result in a trial before an International Court. Once a guilty verdict was announced it would be generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, but not before. At the moment it's entirely speculative. I would be delighted to see it tested in an appropriate court.
Firstly, all of the countries involved would have to sign up and agree to be bound by the findings of the International Court.
Maybe those countries who refuse to do so should be declared pariah states?
A case could be made against a number of people. It could result in a trial before an International Court. Once a guilty verdict was announced it would be generally accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal by International Law, but not before. At the moment it's entirely speculative. I would be delighted to see it tested in an appropriate court.
Firstly, all of the countries involved would have to sign up and agree to be bound by the findings of the International Court.
Maybe those countries who refuse to do so should be declared pariah states?
Another Reason For MP Recall
Bryn Mawr;1481577 wrote: Firstly, all of the countries involved would have to sign up and agree to be bound by the findings of the International Court.
Maybe those countries who refuse to do so should be declared pariah states?
As I understood it, there are such treaties, as afforded by the United Nations. However, when a country, such as America, decides to defy the ruling of the U.N. (such as happened with Iraq), who's to police them?
Maybe those countries who refuse to do so should be declared pariah states?
As I understood it, there are such treaties, as afforded by the United Nations. However, when a country, such as America, decides to defy the ruling of the U.N. (such as happened with Iraq), who's to police them?
Another Reason For MP Recall
The USA hasn't signed treaties recognizing the International Criminal Court.
I'm not sure which UN ruling you think the US defied over Iraq. From what I remember, the US asked the UN General Assembly for authority to invade Iraq but failed to get it. What they did get was UK complicity as a direct result of outright deliberate lies by the UK cabinet following an illegal decision to attempt regime change.
To the best of my knowledge:
1: The UK does recognize the International Criminal Court and would, if asked, hand over surviving members of that cabinet.
2: The International Criminal Court will only investigate alleged war crimes if asked to by a signatory nation.
3: No signatory nation has so far made such a request regarding the UK and the Iraq War.
4: It isn't possible for an individual or a NGO to make such a request.
I'm not sure which UN ruling you think the US defied over Iraq. From what I remember, the US asked the UN General Assembly for authority to invade Iraq but failed to get it. What they did get was UK complicity as a direct result of outright deliberate lies by the UK cabinet following an illegal decision to attempt regime change.
To the best of my knowledge:
1: The UK does recognize the International Criminal Court and would, if asked, hand over surviving members of that cabinet.
2: The International Criminal Court will only investigate alleged war crimes if asked to by a signatory nation.
3: No signatory nation has so far made such a request regarding the UK and the Iraq War.
4: It isn't possible for an individual or a NGO to make such a request.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Is that the same club the bankers belong to ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Another Reason For MP Recall
FourPart;1481686 wrote: https://www.globalpolicy.org/political- ... -iraq.html
Can you not see the utter and complete difference between "defy the ruling of the U.N. (such as happened with Iraq)" and "the UN Security Council refused to endorse the US-UK invasion and occupation of Iraq in March 2003"? There was no ruling to defy. The UN Security Council refused its support for the invasion.
Can you not see the utter and complete difference between "defy the ruling of the U.N. (such as happened with Iraq)" and "the UN Security Council refused to endorse the US-UK invasion and occupation of Iraq in March 2003"? There was no ruling to defy. The UN Security Council refused its support for the invasion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Another Reason For MP Recall
Apart from degree, no. The UN is toothless. It is basically run for & by the Americans. Even if it has major objections it dare not go up against America as the next stage would be to physically go in with UN Troops against America in defence of Iraq, and that's never likely to happen. Therefore a ruling not to support them is the same thing as ruling against them. It's like asking whether Tories won the election or if Labour lost. It makes no difference. The bastards still got in.