White or wrong ?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:16 pm

White is the new black.

Her argument was that racial heredity did not constitute identity. Identity was a subjective, fluid thing: “From my truth, and “in this moment, “nothing about being white describes who I am.

Is this reverse racism ? I think it is.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:23 pm

I don't think it's reverse racism as much as I think she has emotional problems.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:34 pm

AnneBoleyn;1480943 wrote: I don't think it's reverse racism as much as I think she has emotional problems.

Definitely got problems, but what are they ?

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:56 pm

So we now have trans-gender, and trans-racial identities.

I am sure a lot of blacks wish it were as simple as she seems to think it is.

Wonder how quick she would have changed her mind had she been in Charleston the other day.

I think being black is a lot easier in Washington, than in South Carolina.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:33 pm

LarsMac;1480952 wrote: So we now have trans-gender, and trans-racial identities.

I am sure a lot of blacks wish it were as simple as she seems to think it is.

Wonder how quick she would have changed her mind had she been in Charleston the other day.

I think being black is a lot easier in Washington, than in South Carolina.

I think she would have been glad to have been a martyr for the cause!

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:30 pm

AnneBoleyn;1480958 wrote: I think she would have been glad to have been a martyr for the cause!

Well, I am glad she did not have to make that sacrifice. Martyrdom is over-rated, in my book.

One thing she said that caught my notice.

" Identity was a subjective, fluid thing: “From my truth, and “in this moment, “nothing about being white describes who I am.

"from my truth" - as if truth is a relative thing. We get more and more of that, these days. Whatever you may identify with culturally and socially, you still have a particular set of genes and an ancestry that must be dealt with. Besides, I gotta wonder what she has to do with her hair to get that look. She's really no different than the classic Transvestite of old who dresses and acts like a woman, even though all her/his plumbing says she is a male. No matter how she feels about it, the mark on her birth certificate still matters statistically, and pretending doesn't make it so.

Even with surgery, there is still that thing you were born with.

I am white, whether I like it or not. I have some genetics in the background that say some of my ancestors were "other" but the percentages are not there. When I was young and spent a lot of time in the Sun, I could pass for a mexicano, and actually spent a couple of days proving my "Americanness" to the Border patrol, once. That didn't really make me a Mexican.

Having kinky hair and hanging out with Blacks doesn't make you black, any more that hanging out in a Synagog and wearing a Yarmulke makes you a Jew.

Her crime was not being in the NAACP. Her "crime" was claiming a racial identity that she did not own.

I am kinda sorry for here. she probably worked hard for that job, and deserved it. Except for the part about claiming to be black to get it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:41 am

Racial identity is not a "relative truth"?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:54 am

There can be all sorts of different truths seen from different perspectives where none may necessarily be right or wrong. For instance, if a person is of mixed parentage, they are genetically no more black than they are white. However, they probably don't look white, yet there is a good chance they don't quite look black either. Does he/she relate to other blacks / whites / half-casts, or does he/she simply relate to being a person? More to the point, though, is how other people perceive him/her. People may accept him/her as a person, but there will still be that level of ethnic grouping because it is a physical truth, no less than if someone is blonde or brunette, for instance. These are all relative truths about the same thing. Life it not binary. It would be so much simpler if it was.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:25 am

I expect there is a section of people in the US like some in the UK that adopt a sort of patois, using an accent and words from West Indian/American black culture.

I am thinking of one specific person who embarrassingly talks and even walks with an affected 'black stylee'

The only thing missing is the dreadlocks and black skin. Oh I forgot about the other white guy I know that sports dreads and a multi coloured beanyhat to contain them.

Why ?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:45 am

Bruv;1480964 wrote: I expect there is a section of people in the US like some in the UK that adopt a sort of patois, using an accent and words from West Indian/American black culture.

I am thinking of one specific person who embarrassingly talks and even walks with an affected 'black stylee'

The only thing missing is the dreadlocks and black skin. Oh I forgot about the other white guy I know that sports dreads and a multi coloured beanyhat to contain them.

Why ?Why not? Some people don't identify culturally in the same manner that, say you might. Their heroes might be individuals who carry themselves that way. One might debate internally whether or not the display is frightening to them. Otherwise why care who walks and talks as they do?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:35 am

"Why not", is not an answer. "Why not" is just being contrary......As in....

Things always seem to fall downwards when dropped......"Why?"

"Why not ?"

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:47 am

Bruv;1480973 wrote: "Why not", is not an answer. "Why not" is just being contrary......As in....

Things always seem to fall downwards when dropped......"Why?"

"Why not ?"Well my "why not" wasn't the totality of my post. That said, the meaning of "why - why not" exchanges can be differentiated between natural occurrences and chosen behaviors or opinions.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:47 am

AnneBoleyn;1480943 wrote: I don't think it's reverse racism as much as I think she has emotional problems.

I don't buy into the concept of "reverse racism".

Makes as much sense as reverse murder, robbery, fraud etc.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:58 am

Bruv;1480964 wrote: I expect there is a section of people in the US like some in the UK that adopt a sort of patois, using an accent and words from West Indian/American black culture.

I am thinking of one specific person who embarrassingly talks and even walks with an affected 'black stylee'

The only thing missing is the dreadlocks and black skin. Oh I forgot about the other white guy I know that sports dreads and a multi coloured beanyhat to contain them.

Why ?

It's like when you see that comical sight of grossly obese men trying to squeeze into an already outsize football kit. Surely they are not trying identify with whoever their footballing hero might be - and they're certainly unlikely to be playing any football themselves.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:15 am

tude dog;1480990 wrote: I don't buy into the concept of "reverse racism".

Neither do I. I do think the lady is confused & living out her fantasy.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:17 am

FourPart;1480963 wrote: There can be all sorts of different truths seen from different perspectives where none may necessarily be right or wrong.

I really like Lars post

Well, I am glad she did not have to make that sacrifice. Martyrdom is over-rated, in my book.

One thing she said that caught my notice.

" Identity was a subjective, fluid thing: “From my truth, and “in this moment, “nothing about being white describes who I am.

"from my truth" - as if truth is a relative thing.

FourPart;1480963 wrote: For instance, if a person is of mixed parentage, they are genetically no more black than they are white.

Oh, you mean like our President who is never referred to as half white? Forbid one refers to him as mulatto.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:23 am

TD: "Oh, you mean like our President who is never referred to as half white? Forbid one refers to him as mulatto."

Mulatto is an old-fashioned, out of use term.

"The mulatto is a classic stereotype that first made an appearance in 19th-century American literature. Eventually this archetype became box office gold for films like 1934's Imitation of Life and 1949's Pinky..........................Most important, "mulatto" is a slave word, the result of the mating of a donkey and a horse, which creates a mule -- and mules are sterile. Race psychology, which was developed by pseudoscientists to perpetuate intra-racial divisions within the black community, still functions today."

Halle Berry's Baby and the Resurgence of the Tragic Mulatto - The Root

Why does it please you to be insulting?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:28 am

tude dog;1480994 wrote: Oh, you mean like our President who is never referred to as half white? Forbid one refers to him as mulatto.
Precisely. But is it any less truthful?

3 Statements:

"I am half black"

"I am half white"

"I am half cast".

Is any one of them any less truthful than the other? It is merely a matter of perspective as to which they identify with.

Also, it is a regrettable fact that the majority of humans will still see the Black side of a mixed race person - even if the Black side is 3rd generation, with only ¼ Black. It's not just a matter of individual identification. It's a matter of other people's perception.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:36 am

AnneBoleyn;1480993 wrote: Neither do I. I do think the lady is confused & living out her fantasy.What fantasy would that be?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:42 am

AnneBoleyn;1480997 wrote: TD: "Oh, you mean like our President who is never referred to as half white? Forbid one refers to him as mulatto."

Mulatto is an old-fashioned, out of use term.

"The mulatto is a classic stereotype that first made an appearance in 19th-century American literature. Eventually this archetype became box office gold for films like 1934's Imitation of Life and 1949's Pinky..........................Most important, "mulatto" is a slave word, the result of the mating of a donkey and a horse, which creates a mule -- and mules are sterile. Race psychology, which was developed by pseudoscientists to perpetuate intra-racial divisions within the black community, still functions today."

Halle Berry's Baby and the Resurgence of the Tragic Mulatto - The Root

Why does it please you to be insulting?

Golly. I didn't call him mulatto. You got another word for a mixed black/ white person?

As far as insulting that stain in the White House, name calling does not come close should I choose to comment on his failures.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:49 am

FourPart;1480999 wrote: Precisely. But is it any less truthful?

3 Statements:

"I am half black"

"I am half white"

"I am half cast".

Is any one of them any less truthful than the other? It is merely a matter of perspective as to which they identify with.

Also, it is a regrettable fact that the majority of humans will still see the Black side of a mixed race person - even if the Black side is 3rd generation, with only ¼ Black. It's not just a matter of individual identification. It's a matter of other people's perception.I don't see why any of it matters at all. We talk about difference within the species as if there are separate human species'. We're all humans with some variation due to ancestral geography and slight mutations.

These differences being discussed in this thread have to do political and cultural conditioning. They're not real differences, only variation.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:52 am

FourPart;1480999 wrote: Precisely. But is it any less truthful?

3 Statements:

"I am half black"

"I am half white"

"I am half cast".

Is any one of them any less truthful than the other? It is merely a matter of perspective as to which they identify with.

Also, it is a regrettable fact that the majority of humans will still see the Black side of a mixed race person - even if the Black side is 3rd generation, with only ¼ Black. It's not just a matter of individual identification. It's a matter of other people's perception.

The regrettable thing is race an issue.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:14 pm

Ahso!;1481000 wrote: What fantasy would that be?

Being born a black American, instead of a white one.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:15 pm

tude dog;1481005 wrote: The regrettable thing is race an issue.

That is so disingenuous of you. You always make race an issue.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:22 pm

tude dog;1481001 wrote: Golly. I didn't call him mulatto. You got another word for a mixed black/ white person?

As far as insulting that stain in the White House, name calling does not come close should I choose to comment on his failures.

You said "Forbid one refers to him as mulatto." You brought the word up & I'm glad you understand it is not acceptable. I don't need a word for mixed race. He is famous enough, no description required.

I am also disappointed in our President, for not being tough enough from the start. Instead, he tried to deal with people whose only goal was to destroy him. I have other disappointments as well. I keep my eyes open. Stop! Look! Listen! Got that advice from a police officer in elementary school who came in to teach us how to cross a street, & it works well for all other issues.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:42 pm

AnneBoleyn;1481014 wrote: That is so disingenuous of you. You always make race an issue.

How's that?

You confuse I don't hesitate to comment on issues of race as opposed to making race an issue.

You can look to others who make an living exploiting race for personal profit or political advantage, (eg BHO).

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:51 pm

AnneBoleyn;1481013 wrote: Being born a black American, instead of a white one.The evidence would lead us to understand that we're all black; everyone's ancestors came out of Africa. The same cannot be said of any other skin pigmentation category of race.

That this person chose to put herself in the political/cultural middle of that debate is really irrelevant, IMV. She may not understand the reality as I've just explained it, but she happens to be spot on when she says she identifies as black, that's intuitive on her part. Everyone of us should, after all, identify as black.

What we're witnessing when we identify and argue on the grounds of race as opposed to understanding that we're all one species with variation is the spectacle of one of the many problems with keeping the population ignorant by refusing to educate with what we know and educating by what we believe. There is no division of race in reality, it's another myth borne out of ignorance.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:07 pm

Ahso!;1481021 wrote: The evidence would lead us to understand that we're all black; everyone's ancestors came out of Africa. The same cannot be said of any other skin pigmentation category of race.

That this person chose to put herself in the political/cultural middle of that debate is really irrelevant, IMV. She may not understand the reality as I've just explained it, but she happens to be spot on when she says she identifies as black, that's intuitive on her part. Everyone of us should, after all, identify as black.

What we're witnessing when we identify and argue on the grounds of race as opposed to understanding that we're all one species with variation is the spectacle of one of the many problems with keeping the population ignorant by refusing to educate with what we know and educating by what we believe. There is no division of race in reality, it's another myth borne out of ignorance.

Do you live in the same world as me ?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:14 pm

Bruv;1481022 wrote: Do you live in the same world as me ?

Is this you being pithy again? Why don't you just ask me about what you fail to understand in the post? What part are you taking issue with?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:23 pm

tude dog;1481020 wrote: How's that?

You confuse I don't hesitate to comment on issues of race as opposed to making race an issue.

You can look to others who make an living exploiting race for personal profit or political advantage, (eg BHO).

I disagree with your assessment.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:27 pm

Bruv;1481022 wrote: Do you live in the same world as me ?

Ahso is complicating a simple issue. This is not to say that his post is not a truth---it is---however, it is not viewed that way by most people living alongside us. Ahso is right for a University course, but not for the way most people relate to each other. I honestly wish each one of us sees the reality Ahso is discussing, but Ahso, we are not there yet. Most of us anyway.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:31 pm

Ahso!;1481021 wrote: The evidence would lead us to understand that we're all black; everyone's ancestors came out of Africa.

I understand the logic, when did logic come into the world's problems ?

Have you tried that 'reasoning' in downtown Detroit ?

Or perhaps you should get over to Stormfront to enlighten them there ?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:34 pm

AnneBoleyn;1481026 wrote: Ahso is complicating a simple issue. This is not to say that his post is not a truth---it is---however, it is not viewed that way by most people living alongside us. Ahso is right for a University course, but not for the way most people relate to each other. I honestly wish each one of us sees the reality Ahso is discussing, but Ahso, we are not there yet. Most of us anyway.

I would say he is glibly over simplifying it.........of course nobody can argue with his logic.........don't make him right though.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:54 pm

AnneBoleyn;1481026 wrote: Ahso is complicating a simple issue.And I would say that the issue is simple and been made complicated due to the ignorance of belief that comes from ancient history. It need not take a university education to understand what I've said, only a proper educational beginning and carried through. Dividing the species into groups and then focusing on the differences within the groups is not education, it's a lie. As a society we may not have understood that for a long time, but we do now and should be educating our young to understand what we know and not what we believe. We have evidence, let's begin speaking from the perspective of knowing that evidence.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:03 pm

Bruv;1481027 wrote: I understand the logic, when did logic come into the world's problems ?

Have you tried that 'reasoning' in downtown Detroit ?

Or perhaps you should get over to Stormfront to enlighten them there ?You missed my point. That anyone would expect any person to go downtown anywhere and explain away hundreds of years of myth taught under the guise of education is definitely an oversimplification of the issue. Look how difficult it's proving with just you.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:13 pm

Ahso!;1481030 wrote: You missed my point. That anyone would expect any person to go downtown anywhere and explain away hundreds of years of myth taught under the guise of education is definitely an oversimplification of the issue. Look how difficult it's proving with just you.

One must wonder who is missing what point and if it is intentional or not.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:27 pm

Okay, let's try this from another angle. How would you prefer to define "race"?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Once again this is a demonstration of the bastardisation of the English language through the excessive regime of PC. Mullatto is a perfectly valid word for someone of mixed racial parentage. It is only because of the way it began to be used in a derogatory way that it slipped from common usage.

mulatto

[muh-lat-oh, -lah-toh, myoo-]

Word Origin

noun, plural mulattoes, mulattos.

1.

Anthropology. (not in technical use) the offspring of one white parent and one black parent.

2.

Older Use: Often Offensive. a person who has both black and white ancestors.

adjective

3.

of a light-brown color.

(Source Dictionary.com)

Only #2 implies that it has been used offensively, but that doesn't mean the word itself is offensive.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:31 am

Ahso!;1481032 wrote: Okay, let's try this from another angle. How would you prefer to define "race"?

It is not about how I define race, it's about how race is perceived by blacks themselves and people who hate those with an access of melanin.

It is not about how I define race it's about why the relationship between people with extra pigmentation and those lacking it has formed vast disparities in our world.

It has nothing at all to do with the human race starting in Africa millions of years ago, it is about why there are a higher percentage of blacks in jail and in prison and dealing drugs allegedly, how I define race has no bearing on that at all.

The question is why do blacks feel hard done by, is it real or imagined, why do some whites feel superior, why do some whites feel the need to adopt black persona, why oh why after centuries of enlightenment is there still such a gulf based on the colour of a mans skin?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:08 am

Bruv;1481050 wrote: It is not about how I define race, it's about how race is perceived by blacks themselves and people who hate those with an access of melanin.

It is not about how I define race it's about why the relationship between people with extra pigmentation and those lacking it has formed vast disparities in our world.

It has nothing at all to do with the human race starting in Africa millions of years ago, it is about why there are a higher percentage of blacks in jail and in prison and dealing drugs allegedly, how I define race has no bearing on that at all.

The question is why do blacks feel hard done by, is it real or imagined, why do some whites feel superior, why do some whites feel the need to adopt black persona, why oh why after centuries of enlightenment is there still such a gulf based on the colour of a mans skin?Yes, I'm aware of all this and I addressed it in my earlier post.

What I'm talking about is what racism actually is, where it's rooted, and a long term solution instead of mucking around in the mud of the issue.

There would be no racism if the idea of race had never been created. We now know that the idea of race is a false notion. Unfortunately, however, the idea of race is well established and the deconstructing of it will be painfully slow and difficult.

You might as well be one of the first to spread the good news on your other forum, though be prepared for hostile resistance to your new found knowledge.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:02 am

There are several sides to the same coin of statistics The problem is that if you use them in one way you're classed as excessively PC, in the other you will be classed as racist.

Typical examples & possible reasons.

1. More Blacks in prison.

More Blacks commit crimes (Racist)

They just being picked on (PC)

2. Equal numbers of Blacks commit crimes as Whites.

There are more Whites than there are Blacks, therefore per capita there is more Black crime (Racist)

Proof that there is no difference between Black & White. (PC)

3. Blacks don't get given the same breaks as Whites.

Breaks aren't given. They have to be earned on a level playing field. (Racist)

Blacks should be given preferential treatment by way of Positive Discrimination (PC)

Whilst one part of a community refuses to integrate & expects everyone else to adapt to them instead it is bound to cause friction & resentment among everyone else. All the enforcement of PC does is to increase Racial tension. Plus is should not be seen as being racist to accept things for what they are. I'm streetwise. I've lived among the dregs & the drug dealers & I can assure you that despite what the PC Brigade may want you to believe, the vast majority of the drug dealers & pimps, etc are black. That is why more Blacks gets pulled over on random checks than Whites. The Police are experienced & streetwise too. That is the fact of the matter. If I'm racist for stating that fact, then sobeit.

However, what is wrong, and does tend to happen is when Whites get caught & prosecuted for the same crimes, they do tend to get off with more lenient sentences. That is not acceptable. Justice should be blind - or more to the point, colour blind.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:30 am

Ahso!;1481029 wrote: And I would say that the issue is simple and been made complicated due to the ignorance of belief that comes from ancient history. It need not take a university education to understand what I've said, only a proper educational beginning and carried through. Dividing the species into groups and then focusing on the differences within the groups is not education, it's a lie. As a society we may not have understood that for a long time, but we do now and should be educating our young to understand what we know and not what we believe. We have evidence, let's begin speaking from the perspective of knowing that evidence.

Agreed.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:55 am

Ahso!;1481052 wrote: Yes, I'm aware of all this and I addressed it in my earlier post.

Must have missed that then.....sorry.

Or it could be your convoluted language.

What I'm talking about is what racism actually is, where it's rooted, and a long term solution instead of mucking around in the mud of the issue.

There would be no racism if the idea of race had never been created. We now know that the idea of race is a false notion. Unfortunately, however, the idea of race is well established and the deconstructing of it will be painfully slow and difficult.

You remind me of the joke about asking directions from an Irishman (another racist joke coming up ?) his reply "If I were going there, I wouldn't start from here"

Which is basically what you are saying........................but...we have to work with what we have.........that which has been done, cannot be undone.

You might as well be one of the first to spread the good news on your other forum, though be prepared for hostile resistance to your new found knowledge.

I am doing my bit, being in a mixed marriage already, and so realising first hand the problems involved.

I have known for a long time that spreading the good news,as you put it, is a waste of time. Most people's behaviour is set in stone on their mothers knee, the only solution is the passage of time and the slow resolution by educating and re-educating future generations. As MLK said "I may not get there......." I doubt very much I will get there either, and perhaps this lady is part of the solution, she raises a lot of questions, that have no definite answers.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:44 am

Yes, Bruv, you're right, your ignorance is all my fault.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:01 am

Ahso!;1481059 wrote: Yes, Bruv, you're right, your ignorance is all my fault.

It is true then...........................you do meet some strange people on the internet.

Are you grooming me for some purpose ?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:02 am

Ahso!;1481059 wrote: Yes, Bruv, you're right, your ignorance is all my fault.

Unnecessary Roughness.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:28 am

What's "mixed" about your marriage?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:44 am

Ahso!;1481062 wrote: What's "mixed" about your marriage?Never mind, forget I asked. Let's not waste each other's time any longer.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:59 am

Ahso!;1481063 wrote: Never mind, forget I asked. Let's not waste each other's time any longer.

Agreed

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:37 pm

Ahso!;1481062 wrote: What's "mixed" about your marriage?
Perhaps one's male, the other's female (I say 'perhaps' as you can't take anything as read these days).