Recently
Chit happened,
Now what?
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Blame a flag.
Anyway, this is a realy Good commentary on the flag.
Anyway, this is a realy Good commentary on the flag.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
FourPart;1482566 wrote: What is?
Don't encourage him...................
Don't encourage him...................
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
tude dog;1482565 wrote: Blame a flag.
Anyway, this is a realy Good commentary on the flag.
Is it true that the battle flag was initially flown by the State Legislature in that location as a response to the pressures, Federal and local, of the Civil Rights Movement back in the middle of the last century?
If it's actually true - you might like to say yes or no, by the way, to that specific accusation - then of course the flag should be retired and put in a museum. The State Legislature lost that battle, the Civil Rights Movement won, nobody in their right mind could wish it otherwise. The flag still flying there all these years later is an affront to all decent values, given the disgraceful reason it was put up in the first place.
Anyway, this is a realy Good commentary on the flag.
Is it true that the battle flag was initially flown by the State Legislature in that location as a response to the pressures, Federal and local, of the Civil Rights Movement back in the middle of the last century?
If it's actually true - you might like to say yes or no, by the way, to that specific accusation - then of course the flag should be retired and put in a museum. The State Legislature lost that battle, the Civil Rights Movement won, nobody in their right mind could wish it otherwise. The flag still flying there all these years later is an affront to all decent values, given the disgraceful reason it was put up in the first place.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
This is a long commentary.
What really grabed me was
In June of 1865, Confederate Gen. Joseph Shelby and about a thousand of his cavalrymen rode into Mexico and exile rather than remain in a conquered South. As they forded the Rio Grande, they stopped and sank their faded banners midstream in an act of symbolic defiance.
Honor
Whatever the flag meant from 1865 to 1940, the flag’s misuse by a white minority of outspokenly bigoted and often violent people has indelibly shifted that meaning. It is now remembered around the world with images of defiant governors standing in schoolhouse doors, with the snapping dogs of Birmingham, with police barricades to keep black youths out of classrooms, with beatings and lynchings in the night, with churches set ablaze, with fear, intimidation, hatred and the constant reminder that the descendants of slaves were not welcome in their own country.
Wall Street Journal
I put this up for your preview.
What really grabed me was
In June of 1865, Confederate Gen. Joseph Shelby and about a thousand of his cavalrymen rode into Mexico and exile rather than remain in a conquered South. As they forded the Rio Grande, they stopped and sank their faded banners midstream in an act of symbolic defiance.
Honor
Whatever the flag meant from 1865 to 1940, the flag’s misuse by a white minority of outspokenly bigoted and often violent people has indelibly shifted that meaning. It is now remembered around the world with images of defiant governors standing in schoolhouse doors, with the snapping dogs of Birmingham, with police barricades to keep black youths out of classrooms, with beatings and lynchings in the night, with churches set ablaze, with fear, intimidation, hatred and the constant reminder that the descendants of slaves were not welcome in their own country.
Wall Street Journal
I put this up for your preview.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
tude dog;1482579 wrote: I put this up for your preview.Yes, I've been keeping up.
Is it true that the battle flag was initially flown by the State Legislature in that location as a response to the pressures, Federal and local, of the Civil Rights Movement back in the middle of the last century? It may be that the reports I've seen have been mistaken and that's not true. I thought you'd be in a position to say.
Is it true that the battle flag was initially flown by the State Legislature in that location as a response to the pressures, Federal and local, of the Civil Rights Movement back in the middle of the last century? It may be that the reports I've seen have been mistaken and that's not true. I thought you'd be in a position to say.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
tude dog;1482563 wrote: Recently
Chit happened,
Now what?
It's a peculiarly american problem it would be more interesting to hear what you think.
Chit happened,
Now what?
It's a peculiarly american problem it would be more interesting to hear what you think.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
gmc;1482593 wrote: It's a peculiarly american problem it would be more interesting to hear what you think.
I never had any connection to the south. I always looked at that flag as what it was, a Confederate Battle Flag.
Far as I am concerned, flying that flag as a state symbol is a local issue.
Must admit I find it curious how fast some people decided to take it out on that flag after those people were murdered. Reminds me of the quaint saying "Never let a tragedy go to waste."
I never had any connection to the south. I always looked at that flag as what it was, a Confederate Battle Flag.
Far as I am concerned, flying that flag as a state symbol is a local issue.
Must admit I find it curious how fast some people decided to take it out on that flag after those people were murdered. Reminds me of the quaint saying "Never let a tragedy go to waste."
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
tude dog;1482608 wrote: Must admit I find it curious how fast some people decided to take it out on that flag after those people were murdered. Reminds me of the quaint saying "Never let a tragedy go to waste."People had been trying to get it taken down for decades, the issue finally came to a head. Will the Flag Come Down in 2000? discusses the efforts over the years.
The Day the Flag Went Up is an interview with one of the commission members that put the Centennial together in South Carolina, when the flag first went up over the State Capitol. "I'm the only one on the commission left alive," Hollis said in an August interview. "I tried to get them to call it the `Civil War Centennial,' but they insisted on calling it the `Confederate War Centennial.'
[...] Hollis remembers the day the Confederate flag was hoisted over the State House to commemorate the war. The centennial kicked off on April 11, 1961, with a re-creation of the firing on Fort Sumter. The flag went up for the opening celebrations.
"The flag is being flown this week at the request of Aiken Rep. John A. May," reported The State on April 12. May didn't introduce his resolution until the next legislative session. By the time the resolution passed on March 16, 1962, the flag had been flying for nearly a year. (This explains why the flag is often erroneously reported to have gone up in 1962).
"May told us he was going to introduce a resolution to fly the flag for a year from the capitol. I was against the flag going up," Hollis said, "but I kept quiet and went along. I didn't want to get into it with the UDC girls." The resolution that passed didn't include a time for the flag to come down and, therefore, "it just stayed up," Hollis said. "Nobody raised a question."
[...] Hoisting the Confederate flag over the State House didn't generate any controversy at the time. Perhaps those most offended by it were too busy fighting real-life battles to expend any energy on symbolic ones.
It has only been 38 years since the flag went up, but its defenders seem to have lost their short-term memory. Dr. Hollis calls them "historical revisionists."
He said there should be no denying that white supremacy was a vital aspect of this state's political will in 1861, just as it was in 1961. And there can be no separating the banners from this history.
When asked to comment on the current controversy over the flag, Hollis quoted George Santayana, who said, "Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes."
The Day the Flag Went Up is an interview with one of the commission members that put the Centennial together in South Carolina, when the flag first went up over the State Capitol. "I'm the only one on the commission left alive," Hollis said in an August interview. "I tried to get them to call it the `Civil War Centennial,' but they insisted on calling it the `Confederate War Centennial.'
[...] Hollis remembers the day the Confederate flag was hoisted over the State House to commemorate the war. The centennial kicked off on April 11, 1961, with a re-creation of the firing on Fort Sumter. The flag went up for the opening celebrations.
"The flag is being flown this week at the request of Aiken Rep. John A. May," reported The State on April 12. May didn't introduce his resolution until the next legislative session. By the time the resolution passed on March 16, 1962, the flag had been flying for nearly a year. (This explains why the flag is often erroneously reported to have gone up in 1962).
"May told us he was going to introduce a resolution to fly the flag for a year from the capitol. I was against the flag going up," Hollis said, "but I kept quiet and went along. I didn't want to get into it with the UDC girls." The resolution that passed didn't include a time for the flag to come down and, therefore, "it just stayed up," Hollis said. "Nobody raised a question."
[...] Hoisting the Confederate flag over the State House didn't generate any controversy at the time. Perhaps those most offended by it were too busy fighting real-life battles to expend any energy on symbolic ones.
It has only been 38 years since the flag went up, but its defenders seem to have lost their short-term memory. Dr. Hollis calls them "historical revisionists."
He said there should be no denying that white supremacy was a vital aspect of this state's political will in 1861, just as it was in 1961. And there can be no separating the banners from this history.
When asked to comment on the current controversy over the flag, Hollis quoted George Santayana, who said, "Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes."
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Heraldry has a lot of ancient rules as to the meanings of flags & how, where & when they fly etc.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
I'm not sure the Americans do Heraldry. They have no College of Arms that I've ever heard of. They have no peerage. If you're an American and people call you Earl or Duke it's rarely intended as an honor, it's just a name. We Brits know better than to behave like that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
It i really sad that there is the mindset in this country to honor traitors who started a rebellion for the right to continue enslaving other people, when the rest of the civilized world had all but abandoned the practice.
I personally do not care what private citizens do with the damned flag, but the state governments should never have allowed the thing to be displayed in an official capacity.
I personally do not care what private citizens do with the damned flag, but the state governments should never have allowed the thing to be displayed in an official capacity.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
You might have noticed that the American trend in ties has the stripes going from top right to bottom left, whilst in the UK it's the other way round. This is representative of the Bar Sinister in Heraldry, indicating Bastardy.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
FourPart;1482668 wrote: You might have noticed that the American trend in ties has the stripes going from top right to bottom left, whilst in the UK it's the other way round. This is representative of the Bar Sinister in Heraldry, indicating Bastardy.
I very much doubt whether most americans know that and if they do probably really don't care. I know I don't, heraldry is interesting and once had a practical function now it's a vestige of our feudal past that the descendants of the warlords that conquered thse isles have persuaded us matters.
posted by tude dog
I never had any connection to the south. I always looked at that flag as what it was, a Confederate Battle Flag.
Far as I am concerned, flying that flag as a state symbol is a local issue.
Must admit I find it curious how fast some people decided to take it out on that flag after those people were murdered. Reminds me of the quaint saying "Never let a tragedy go to waste."
I suppose the closest we have to it is the orange marches both here and in northern ireland. That too is a local issue but it's a local issue and symbolism that helps keep bigotry alive and well. Maybe the same could be said for the confedarate flag.
At the beginning of the american civil war at one point the british and french looked likely to get involved, the elite in britain favoured the confederacy and they thought the dependence on cotton would swing them to recognise the confederacy but we had more tradeand business connections with the north and needed their grain. The french were busy in mexico.
It's only in hindsight we forget that those two empires would happily have seen a much weakened united states come in to being. Morality and politics seldom happen atb the ame ime.
I very much doubt whether most americans know that and if they do probably really don't care. I know I don't, heraldry is interesting and once had a practical function now it's a vestige of our feudal past that the descendants of the warlords that conquered thse isles have persuaded us matters.
posted by tude dog
I never had any connection to the south. I always looked at that flag as what it was, a Confederate Battle Flag.
Far as I am concerned, flying that flag as a state symbol is a local issue.
Must admit I find it curious how fast some people decided to take it out on that flag after those people were murdered. Reminds me of the quaint saying "Never let a tragedy go to waste."
I suppose the closest we have to it is the orange marches both here and in northern ireland. That too is a local issue but it's a local issue and symbolism that helps keep bigotry alive and well. Maybe the same could be said for the confedarate flag.
At the beginning of the american civil war at one point the british and french looked likely to get involved, the elite in britain favoured the confederacy and they thought the dependence on cotton would swing them to recognise the confederacy but we had more tradeand business connections with the north and needed their grain. The french were busy in mexico.
It's only in hindsight we forget that those two empires would happily have seen a much weakened united states come in to being. Morality and politics seldom happen atb the ame ime.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
gmc;1482670 wrote: It's only in hindsight we forget that those two empires would happily have seen a much weakened united states come in to being.Hah. I don't see that changing, either. The French would declare a public holiday, the British would merely take one without permission. Both would involve street parties, balloons and funny hats.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
LarsMac;1482667 wrote: It i really sad that there is the mindset in this country to honor traitors who started a rebellion for the right to continue enslaving other people, when the rest of the civilized world had all but abandoned the practice.
I personally do not care what private citizens do with the damned flag, but the state governments should never have allowed the thing to be displayed in an official capacity.
The states were saying "NO" to the Civil Rights movement.
I personally do not care what private citizens do with the damned flag, but the state governments should never have allowed the thing to be displayed in an official capacity.
The states were saying "NO" to the Civil Rights movement.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
AnneBoleyn;1482674 wrote: The states were saying "NO" to the Civil Rights movement.
The detailed account at Running Up the Flag, or, How John Amasa May Thumbed His Nose at JFK | A Capital Blog is helpful, I thought.
The detailed account at Running Up the Flag, or, How John Amasa May Thumbed His Nose at JFK | A Capital Blog is helpful, I thought.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
AnneBoleyn;1482674 wrote: The states were saying "NO" to the Civil Rights movement.
Yes, and they should have been dealt with at the time.
Yes, and they should have been dealt with at the time.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
LarsMac;1482676 wrote: Yes, and they should have been dealt with at the time.
By whom? Didn't the Federal legislators in general support Jim Crow? Segregation collapsed when it did because the White House administration put its weight behind the civil rights activists. Mere moral sacrifice can be ignored indefinitely, it takes a far-sighted politician to send in some protection.
By whom? Didn't the Federal legislators in general support Jim Crow? Segregation collapsed when it did because the White House administration put its weight behind the civil rights activists. Mere moral sacrifice can be ignored indefinitely, it takes a far-sighted politician to send in some protection.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
spot;1482677 wrote: By whom? Didn't the Federal legislators in general support Jim Crow? Segregation collapsed when it did because the White House administration put its weight behind the civil rights activists. Mere moral sacrifice can be ignored indefinitely, it takes a far-sighted politician to send in some protection.
Darned if I know. The Feds should have addressed it then, but Old man Thurmond and his buddies kept that from happening.
Darned if I know. The Feds should have addressed it then, but Old man Thurmond and his buddies kept that from happening.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
An off-topic section of this thread which developed overnight, relating to patriotism from a rather British perspective, has been moved to http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... oting.html
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
LarsMac;1482678 wrote: Darned if I know. The Feds should have addressed it then, but Old man Thurmond and his buddies kept that from happening.
Democrats
Just a reminder.
Democrats
Just a reminder.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Good ole boy Strom Thurmond was a democrat up until the Civil Rights movement, & switched to Republican in 1964, around the same time the Confederate flags went back up.
:yh_tong2
:yh_tong2
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Best thing that happened to the Democrat party was when the Old Line Southern Dems shifted to the Republican party after George Wallace's failed bid for the White House.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
AnneBoleyn;1482766 wrote: Good ole boy Strom Thurmond was a democrat up until the Civil Rights movement, & switched to Republican in 1964, around the same time the Confederate flags went back up.
:yh_tong2
Good old boy,
Strom Thurmond’s black daughter: a symbol of America’s complicated racial history
So he joined the party which passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and he voted againsted it. HR. 7152. PASSAGE.
Interesting fellow he was.
:yh_tong2
Good old boy,
Strom Thurmond’s black daughter: a symbol of America’s complicated racial history
So he joined the party which passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and he voted againsted it. HR. 7152. PASSAGE.
Interesting fellow he was.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Well, dear, Good ole boys like Strom created what you fondly noted as "mulattos". You don't think all those light skinned "high yellows" got that way on their own, did you? Hope you don't think it was an equal love relationship, massa & servant. If mama wanted to keep her job, well she better make the massa happy.
Not as interesting as fairly typical.
Not as interesting as fairly typical.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
AnneBoleyn;1482775 wrote: Well, dear, Good ole boys like Strom created what you fondly noted as "mulattos". You don't think all those light skinned "high yellows" got that way on their own, did you? Hope you don't think it was an equal love relationship, massa & servant. If mama wanted to keep her job, well she better make the massa happy.
Not as interesting as fairly typical.
Just the messenger.
Not as interesting as fairly typical.
Just the messenger.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
AnneBoleyn;1482775 wrote: Hope you don't think it was an equal love relationship, massa & servant. If mama wanted to keep her job, well she better make the massa happy.One of the happy virtues of the ingrained British class system is that these arrangements of which you speak have never been dictated by a prejudicial accident of race.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
9 dead in shooting at black church in Charleston, S.C.
Is this thread going to get split again?