Patriotism (thread split from 9 dead in shooting)

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:34 am

I am a Patriot, but do not read that as a Nationalist. I am proud to be British, and I am proud of the Union Flag, but I find myself, as a Brit, embarrassed by the Nationalist Neo-Nazis that the flag as their personal banner of Fascism & Racial Hatred. It is due to thugs like this that these once proud banners, understandably, begin to take on a role that causes offence.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:39 am

I wonder what patriot means in this context. Perhaps you could tease it out in a few sentences.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:50 am

I consider Patriotic as being proud of ones country, with equality for all. Makes it sound a bit like the American Pledge of allegiance. The Nationalist view, however, takes the Orwellian Far Right view of some being more equal than others, and has no place for anyone that does not fit the White (Aryan) profile.

The problem is, though, that the recent problems with ISIS, who are, in effect more akin to the Nationalists than they'd care to admit, is increasing support towards the Nationalistic view, tarring everyone with the same brush.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:57 am

What aspect of the country? Do you class the government as the country, for example? I can think of few government decisions since Harold Wilson stood down that any reasonable citizen could feel proud of, and a great deal that ought to induce feelings of shame and embarrassment. Or is the government not a part of the country when matters of patriotism are raised?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:07 am

Look at all the things the country has stood for through History. NHS. Trade Unions. Welfare System. Standing alone in the face of the Nazis during WW2. Royalty & Democracy running side by side. Originators of a Police Force (which still remains routinely non-armed). The list goes on & on.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 am

Ah. You're patriotic about the past. The ancient history of the country from before you were born inspires you to patriotic feelings.

How about the present? Perhaps you feel proud of the educational attainment of today's average British citizen. Proud of the police force, despite the unending series of ambush assassinations their armed squads keep notching up. Proud of the armed forces, still lining up to volunteer despite no serving member ever having been deployed in the interest of the country, but solely as a mercenary adjunct to empire-builders in the Pentagon. I'm sure these people volunteer because they like being paid, and I'm sure they volunteer because they like being allowed to kill foreigners without going to jail for it afterwards (an attitude described to recruits as "get some in", apparently), and I'm sure that if they claim they volunteered because they're doing their patriotic duty then they're either wilfully deluded or lying.

Or is it just history documentaries on the BBC that get you warm inside.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:39 am

spot;1482687 wrote: Ah. You're patriotic about the past. The ancient history of the country from before you were born inspires you to patriotic feelings.

How about the present? Perhaps you feel proud of the educational attainment of today's average British citizen. Proud of the police force, despite the unending series of ambush assassinations their armed squads keep notching up. Proud of the armed forces, still lining up to volunteer despite no serving member ever having been deployed in the interest of the country, but solely as a mercenary adjunct to empire-builders in the Pentagon. I'm sure these people volunteer because they like being paid, and I'm sure they volunteer because they like being allowed to kill foreigners without going to jail for it afterwards (an attitude described to recruits as "get some in", apparently), and I'm sure that if they claim they volunteered because they're doing their patriotic duty then they're either wilfully deluded or lying.

Or is it just history documentaries on the BBC that get you warm inside.
Britain has an excellent Education record. People come from world wide to study in UK Universities. Oxford & Cambridge are synonymous with excellence.

The UK Forces provide a world envied level of training in a wide variety of professions, from engineering to medicine & other academic training. They don't have the appalling level of "Friendly Fire" incidents we are so familiar with from the US.

The incidents involving specially armed Police are far from common, unlike in the U.S. where it's not even newsworthy most of the time. Over here, even if a couple of shots get fired, whether anyone is injured or not, it brings about a Public Enquiry.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:42 am

FourPart;1482691 wrote: Britain has an excellent Education record. People come from world wide to study in UK Universities. Oxford & Cambridge are synonymous with excellence.
Picking from the extremes is a bad way of making a point. I did ask, very deliberately, your opinion of "the educational attainment of today's average British citizen" - you see the word "average" in there? I'm still interested to hear it.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:48 am

FourPart;1482691 wrote: The incidents involving specially armed Police are far from common, unlike in the U.S. where it's not even newsworthy most of the time. Over here, even if a couple of shots get fired, whether anyone is injured or not, it brings about a Public Enquiry.

What I wrote was that there's an unending series of ambush assassinations by British armed police squads. It's unending because it keeps on happening. It's ambushes because it's an abrupt pounce with no opportunity to surrender. It's assassination because there's no possible alternative outcome from the moment the command to spring the ambush is given. The frequency of these events is, I suggest, immaterial. Every instance is a stain on the country, both the event and the unit concerned, and not a reason to feel even slightly patriotic.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:49 am

I admit the standard of Secondary Education is declining, mainly due to the combination of teachers being paid too little, class sizes ever increasing, and having to abide by EU Nanny State rules.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:55 am

FourPart;1482691 wrote: The UK Forces provide a world envied level of training in a wide variety of professions, from engineering to medicine & other academic training. They don't have the appalling level of "Friendly Fire" incidents we are so familiar with from the US.I don't doubt any of that for a moment. I merely wonder how the existence and deployment of these people, every one of whom is morally deficient by reason of having volunteered to kill on command in exchange for cash and training in a cause which is ethically insupportable (and has invariably been so since before they were born), could possibly give rise to any patriotic feeling - or, indeed, any feeling other than revulsion and disrespect.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:04 am

FourPart;1482695 wrote: I admit the standard of Secondary Education is declining, mainly due to the combination of teachers being paid too little, class sizes ever increasing, and having to abide by EU Nanny State rules.

And all that is an acceptable reason for patriotic pride, I take it.

Watch out for the "pride" bit. I threw it in because I don't know what patriotism might be if it excludes pride - I think the pride bit inevitably tags along.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:38 am

You also seem to forget that the Military are also often the first ones to hand to offer humanitarian aid during Natural Disasters.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:54 am

FourPart;1482698 wrote: You also seem to forget that the Military are also often the first ones to hand to offer humanitarian aid during Natural Disasters.

A freebie publicity stunt for whichever government owns them, it gets filed under Training.

If the sods disarmed and used their remaining equipment to to offer humanitarian aid during natural disasters, I'd be among the first to applaud. It's the killing I object to.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:31 pm

spot;1482694 wrote: What I wrote was that there's an unending series of ambush assassinations by British armed police squads. It's unending because it keeps on happening. It's ambushes because it's an abrupt pounce with no opportunity to surrender. It's assassination because there's no possible alternative outcome from the moment the command to spring the ambush is given. The frequency of these events is, I suggest, immaterial. Every instance is a stain on the country, both the event and the unit concerned, and not a reason to feel even slightly patriotic.

Do we ever hear of successful 'ambushes' ? Of course we don't, like dams that don't burst, or brakes that work, or dogs that don't bite.

It is deplorable that errors are made, it should be headline news with riots to show the public's disdain (has happened near every time so far in my memory)

But the fact is......the police have to deal with very nasty people on a daily basis, and errors of judgement are made.

I agree that there needs to be closer scrutiny, more accountability, and sackings. And yes there are some unsavoury police officers, arrogant bully boys, that should be thrown out, but over all they do a dangerous job to the best of human ability.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:09 pm

Bruv;1482710 wrote: the police have to deal with very nasty people on a daily basis, and errors of judgement are made.I take that as a gratuitous attack on my good name, quite uncalled for and the judge said I was perfectly entitled to dress that way, given the weather at the time and the remoteness of the location.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:43 pm

spot;1482716 wrote: I take that as a gratuitous attack on my good name, quite uncalled for and the judge said I was perfectly entitled to dress that way, given the weather at the time and the remoteness of the location.

They also have to deal with the mentally ill, drunks, motorists, matrimonial disputes, traffic accidents, crowd control, often the problems overlap, drunken motorists having arguments with their mentally ill wives for instance.

No wonder mistakes are made.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:45 pm

The assassination teams working out of Leman Street do none of those things, and well you know it. They specialize in armed encounters.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:54 pm

spot;1482720 wrote: The assassination teams working out of Leman Street do none of those things, and well you know it. They specialize in armed encounters.

Outside Sundays schools ?

I remind you of the 'very nasty people' reference.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:29 pm

FourPart;1482695 wrote: I admit the standard of Secondary Education is declining, mainly due to the combination of teachers being paid too little, class sizes ever increasing, and having to abide by EU Nanny State rules.

The standard of education is falling because politicians use it as a political football, we are currently ruled by a privately schooled elite that have a vested interest in dumbing down the population at lkeast in scotland the teaching profession at secondary level is an all graduate one the rather insane notion that someone can walk in off the streets and teach without any forrmal traiing has got to be one of the sillier of the more recent changes in england. It's not confined to the tories either tony blair's academies have done a great deal of harm. It has bugger all to do with eu nanny state rules.

posted by four part

Look at all the things the country has stood for through History. NHS. Trade Unions. Welfare System. Standing alone in the face of the Nazis during WW2. Royalty & Democracy running side by side. Originators of a Police Force (which still remains routinely non-armed). The list goes on & on.

So you are proud of the achievements of socialist governments in the post war era in the teeth of opposition from an establishm,ent that even as we speak is busy undermining those very same achievements. Monarchy and democracy side by side? that was achieved by the executioners axe and the plain russet coated captains of the parliamentary armies.

Are you also proud of the part we played in tne transatlantic slave trade and the forceful colonisation of third world countries?

I too am patriotic and being scots have got rather a lot to be patriotic and proud about it doesn't stop me being cynical about the motives of our ruling elite or looking at things through rose tinted sopectacles supplied by the likes of the daily mail.

Unionist patriots at play

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 72287.html

What has this got to do with charleston?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:06 am

spot;1482720 wrote: The assassination teams working out of Leman Street do none of those things, and well you know it. They specialize in armed encounters.

Assassinate

verb (used with object), assassinated, assassinating.

1.

to kill suddenly or secretively, especially a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.

2.

to destroy or harm treacherously and viciously:

to assassinate a person's character.

(Dictionary.com)

Just when did the Police Armed Response Teams assassinate a political figure? Did I miss that item in the news?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:16 am

If you read back through my posts, not once did I refer to Patriotism as being English. Last I knew (despite the SNP's attempts to the contrary) the Scottish voted to remain British.

As for the Cromwell's Parliamentarians - don't forget they had to reinstate the Monarchy when they found the country needed it.

Yes, I am a Socialist, and proud of it, although not Far Left. I'm more a case of slightly Left of Centre. As with the points you have made, I see myself as being one of the majority. The Government, as you say, is dominated by the Upper Echelon Minority. It is that Minority that works against the Patriotic Majority.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:14 am

FourPart;1482736 wrote: If you read back through my posts, not once did I refer to Patriotism as being English. Last I knew (despite the SNP's attempts to the contrary) the Scottish voted to remain British.

As for the Cromwell's Parliamentarians - don't forget they had to reinstate the Monarchy when they found the country needed it.

Yes, I am a Socialist, and proud of it, although not Far Left. I'm more a case of slightly Left of Centre. As with the points you have made, I see myself as being one of the majority. The Government, as you say, is dominated by the Upper Echelon Minority. It is that Minority that works against the Patriotic Majority.

They weren't cromwells parliamentarians - Cromwells grave was dug up an his remains scattered by the royalists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell%27s_head

They restored the monarchy because rule by christian fundamentalists was so appalling getting a king back semed a good idea some of the things they did werec appalling. When he came back many of those who had taken land under the commonwealth got to keep it as part of the deal. Cromwell and his ilk were not in favour of equality democracy they were landowners keen to protect their interests just as the bankers and corporations do today The debates and conflicts of the time still resonate today - we owe far more to the levellers than we do to the monarchy or parliament but it's a part of our history that gets glossed over most people think the levellers and the new model army are pop groups.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:57 am

FourPart;1482735 wrote: Just when did the Police Armed Response Teams assassinate a political figure? Did I miss that item in the news?

ForumGarden threads have previously foundered on the inability of one party to distinguish "especially" from "invariably".

If you read back through my posts, not once did I refer to Patriotism as being English.
Neither did I - if you check, I used the word "British" three times and "English" none at all.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:30 am

Bruv;1482710 wrote: the police have to deal with very nasty people on a daily basis, and errors of judgement are made.
Here's another.

Hull man arrested - for charging his mobile phone on a train | Hull Daily Mail

The word you need is "Plonkers!"

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:03 am

You have to read to the end of the article......and....have some understanding of human nature.

The 'arresting' officer was a jumped plastic bobby (not from Leman st) Who I suspect approached an unreasonable 'arty anarchist type' in an off hand manner and got an over the top reaction. This sort of thing happens daily, and everybody involved needs their heads knocking together

A British Transport Police spokesman said: “We were called to Camden Road London Overground station on Friday, July 10, to a report of a man becoming aggressive when challenged by a PCSO about his use of a plug socket.

“Shortly after 3.30pm, a 45-year-old man from Islington was arrested on suspicion of abstracting electricity, for which he was de-arrested shortly after.

“He was further arrested for unacceptable behaviour and has been reported for this offence.

It would seem that when the real police arrived, the 'electricity abstractor' behaved unreasonably, by not wanting to even talk to them.After smoothing out the rather petty offence and de-arresting him, he continued being unreasonable and so then and only then was arrested for being an ass.

Doubt if any lessons were learned by all those involved.......but thats people for you.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:12 am

Bruv;1482802 wrote: and....have some understanding of human nature.
That lets me off the hook and no mistake.