A TV reporter and cameraman were shot and killed during a live broadcast in Virginia on Wednesday.
Alison Parker and Adam Ward, who worked for Roanoke affiliate WDBJ, died in the 6:45 a.m. attack, CBS News reported.
TV journalists shot dead on air
TV journalists shot dead on air
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
TV journalists shot dead on air
Bruv;1484799 wrote: A TV reporter and cameraman were shot and killed during a live broadcast in Virginia on Wednesday.
Alison Parker and Adam Ward, who worked for Roanoke affiliate WDBJ, died in the 6:45 a.m. attack, CBS News reported.
It's likely to happen again as long as American citizens can legally carry guns. Also, I wonder how many firearms are available on the 'black market' over there? If citizens weren't allowed to carry a gun, and a licensing system put in place for people, such
as farmers, to be able to own guns for vermin control purposes for use on ranch-land only, then maybe this recurring slaughter could be greatly reduced.
Alison Parker and Adam Ward, who worked for Roanoke affiliate WDBJ, died in the 6:45 a.m. attack, CBS News reported.
It's likely to happen again as long as American citizens can legally carry guns. Also, I wonder how many firearms are available on the 'black market' over there? If citizens weren't allowed to carry a gun, and a licensing system put in place for people, such
as farmers, to be able to own guns for vermin control purposes for use on ranch-land only, then maybe this recurring slaughter could be greatly reduced.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
The chap with the gun was an ex-colleague of the victims, who'd been dismissed and had a grudge.
How you refuse law-abiding adult American citizens the legal capacity to arm themselves is difficult. Criminals in the US have unlimited access to firearms and will for all eternity - you simply can't mop hundreds of millions of guns out of civilian hands. England never had that problem.
If you disarm all law-abiding civilians while criminals retain their firearms, the playing field tilts entirely in the criminal's favor.
The US judicial system already has the most draconian jail-time policy on the planet, it's impossible to make sentencing any more harsh if firearms are employed than is already in place. They've left themselves no room for manoeuvre. A voluntarily-armed law-abiding citizenry is what keeps criminals at bay in the US. The law only comes into play after a crime has been committed, unless you include the subset of crimes created by Federal stings.
Finally you have the problem of how to keep firearms out of the hands of previously law-abiding but now disgruntled grudge-bearing ex-employees who don't want to live any longer. Balancing one thing against another I don't think you want to. I think you have to accept that there will be a background level of gun crime by previously law-abiding people who snap, in order to keep the remainder of the law-abiding civilians as safe at night as they can manage to be in that uniquely sociopathic country.
How you refuse law-abiding adult American citizens the legal capacity to arm themselves is difficult. Criminals in the US have unlimited access to firearms and will for all eternity - you simply can't mop hundreds of millions of guns out of civilian hands. England never had that problem.
If you disarm all law-abiding civilians while criminals retain their firearms, the playing field tilts entirely in the criminal's favor.
The US judicial system already has the most draconian jail-time policy on the planet, it's impossible to make sentencing any more harsh if firearms are employed than is already in place. They've left themselves no room for manoeuvre. A voluntarily-armed law-abiding citizenry is what keeps criminals at bay in the US. The law only comes into play after a crime has been committed, unless you include the subset of crimes created by Federal stings.
Finally you have the problem of how to keep firearms out of the hands of previously law-abiding but now disgruntled grudge-bearing ex-employees who don't want to live any longer. Balancing one thing against another I don't think you want to. I think you have to accept that there will be a background level of gun crime by previously law-abiding people who snap, in order to keep the remainder of the law-abiding civilians as safe at night as they can manage to be in that uniquely sociopathic country.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484830 wrote: The chap with the gun was an ex-colleague of the victims, who'd been dismissed and had a grudge.
How you refuse law-abiding adult American citizens the legal capacity to arm themselves is difficult. Criminals in the US have unlimited access to firearms and will for all eternity - you simply can't mop hundreds of millions of guns out of civilian hands. England never had that problem.
If you disarm all law-abiding civilians while criminals retain their firearms, the playing field tilts entirely in the criminal's favor.
The US judicial system already has the most draconian jail-time policy on the planet, it's impossible to make sentencing any more harsh if firearms are employed than is already in place. They've left themselves no room for manoeuvre. A voluntarily-armed law-abiding citizenry is what keeps criminals at bay in the US. The law only comes into play after a crime has been committed, unless you include the subset of crimes created by Federal stings.
Finally you have the problem of how to keep firearms out of the hands of previously law-abiding but now disgruntled grudge-bearing ex-employees who don't want to live any longer. Balancing one thing against another I don't think you want to. I think you have to accept that there will be a background level of gun crime by previously law-abiding people who snap, in order to keep the remainder of the law-abiding civilians as safe at night as they can manage to be in that uniquely sociopathic country.
It would probably take years to combat all the illegal firearms held in the US, but it's the job that's never started that takes longest to finish. For sure, it's a thorny problem with no 'quick fixes'. If the authorities ever do bring down illegally held firearms to manageable levels, that might be the time to think about repealing the right for citizens to bear arms.
Until such times, America will continue to suffer this kind of gun crime.
How you refuse law-abiding adult American citizens the legal capacity to arm themselves is difficult. Criminals in the US have unlimited access to firearms and will for all eternity - you simply can't mop hundreds of millions of guns out of civilian hands. England never had that problem.
If you disarm all law-abiding civilians while criminals retain their firearms, the playing field tilts entirely in the criminal's favor.
The US judicial system already has the most draconian jail-time policy on the planet, it's impossible to make sentencing any more harsh if firearms are employed than is already in place. They've left themselves no room for manoeuvre. A voluntarily-armed law-abiding citizenry is what keeps criminals at bay in the US. The law only comes into play after a crime has been committed, unless you include the subset of crimes created by Federal stings.
Finally you have the problem of how to keep firearms out of the hands of previously law-abiding but now disgruntled grudge-bearing ex-employees who don't want to live any longer. Balancing one thing against another I don't think you want to. I think you have to accept that there will be a background level of gun crime by previously law-abiding people who snap, in order to keep the remainder of the law-abiding civilians as safe at night as they can manage to be in that uniquely sociopathic country.
It would probably take years to combat all the illegal firearms held in the US, but it's the job that's never started that takes longest to finish. For sure, it's a thorny problem with no 'quick fixes'. If the authorities ever do bring down illegally held firearms to manageable levels, that might be the time to think about repealing the right for citizens to bear arms.
Until such times, America will continue to suffer this kind of gun crime.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
The deranged fellow filmed and posted it on Facebook, it is a particularly American crime.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
TV journalists shot dead on air
Bruv;1484875 wrote: The deranged fellow filmed and posted it on Facebook, it is a particularly American crime.
Insanity rules, Bruv. Yet another deranged 'window-licker'.
Insanity rules, Bruv. Yet another deranged 'window-licker'.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
You don't learn if you just plaster the word "insanity" over everything you dislike or disapprove of. It applies to this just as much as it applies to the Third Reich.
The man was angry. He had motive, he had opportunity and he went ahead because the alternative was to walk away and Real Americans don't walk away, ever, by definition. Losers come second. It's his only option that qualifies as a win, regardless of what happens afterwards.
He went into this determined to be a man and not a mouse. Guns have that sort of effect on people who would otherwise have felt they'd lost.
The words he wanted on his grave are, I presume, "That will teach them not to mess with me".
The man was angry. He had motive, he had opportunity and he went ahead because the alternative was to walk away and Real Americans don't walk away, ever, by definition. Losers come second. It's his only option that qualifies as a win, regardless of what happens afterwards.
He went into this determined to be a man and not a mouse. Guns have that sort of effect on people who would otherwise have felt they'd lost.
The words he wanted on his grave are, I presume, "That will teach them not to mess with me".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484901 wrote: You don't learn if you just plaster the word "insanity" over everything you dislike or disapprove of. It applies to this just as much as it applies to the Third Reich.
The man was angry. He had motive, he had opportunity and he went ahead because the alternative was to walk away and Real Americans don't walk away, ever, by definition. Losers come second. It's his only option that qualifies as a win, regardless of what happens afterwards.
He went into this determined to be a man and not a mouse. Guns have that sort of effect on people who would otherwise have felt they'd lost.
The words he wanted on his grave are, I presume, "That will teach them not to mess with me".
As I said, INSANITY, written large, even if it was only temporary!! How else would you describe such a lapse of reason/morals/compassion? It can happen in macrocosm too,re; The Third Reich, with all it's warped ideas and ideals. So don't even think of preaching to me, Spot. You may be a 'whizz' at physics/maths and technical stuff, but on issues relating to sanity, and the mind in general, you're probably not the one to be giving lectures!
Sure, the word 'insane' is often use inappropriately a a 'buzz-word', but not in this instance!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity
The thought process you outlined in your last post here, if it was anything akin to the killer's thought process, is indeed very much insane, and highlights my point quite well.
I must admit, there are times I wonder about you...
The man was angry. He had motive, he had opportunity and he went ahead because the alternative was to walk away and Real Americans don't walk away, ever, by definition. Losers come second. It's his only option that qualifies as a win, regardless of what happens afterwards.
He went into this determined to be a man and not a mouse. Guns have that sort of effect on people who would otherwise have felt they'd lost.
The words he wanted on his grave are, I presume, "That will teach them not to mess with me".
As I said, INSANITY, written large, even if it was only temporary!! How else would you describe such a lapse of reason/morals/compassion? It can happen in macrocosm too,re; The Third Reich, with all it's warped ideas and ideals. So don't even think of preaching to me, Spot. You may be a 'whizz' at physics/maths and technical stuff, but on issues relating to sanity, and the mind in general, you're probably not the one to be giving lectures!
Sure, the word 'insane' is often use inappropriately a a 'buzz-word', but not in this instance!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity
The thought process you outlined in your last post here, if it was anything akin to the killer's thought process, is indeed very much insane, and highlights my point quite well.
I must admit, there are times I wonder about you...
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Bruv;1484875 wrote: The deranged fellow filmed and posted it on Facebook, it is a particularly American crime.
Like this ?
ISIS kidnaps 230 Christian and Muslim men, women and children | Daily Mail Online
Like this ?
ISIS kidnaps 230 Christian and Muslim men, women and children | Daily Mail Online
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1484913 wrote: Sure, the word 'insane' is often use inappropriately a a 'buzz-word', but not in this instance! What I described was an entirely rational sequence of thoughts. To be insane is to operate under a delusion, there's nothing at all delusional about what I described. Anti-social and self-destructive, yes, but not remotely delusional. And culturally determined, too.
The pre-20th century Malays had a cultural equivalent in "Amok" which was also an anti-social means of bringing a situation to an end.
The pre-20th century Malays had a cultural equivalent in "Amok" which was also an anti-social means of bringing a situation to an end.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Is it possible to agree with both versions for the cause of these events ?
It is so obviously an insane act, whether insanity can be cultural or a learned aberration I don't know.
It is not the act of a sane person to firstly kill then end their own life for the reasons given.
It is so obviously an insane act, whether insanity can be cultural or a learned aberration I don't know.
It is not the act of a sane person to firstly kill then end their own life for the reasons given.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
TV journalists shot dead on air
Bruv;1484926 wrote: It is not the act of a sane person to firstly kill then end their own life for the reasons given.
I believe that, had he lived to face trial, the court would have disagreed with you. There's plenty of evidence to back that claim.
I believe that, had he lived to face trial, the court would have disagreed with you. There's plenty of evidence to back that claim.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484927 wrote: I believe that, had he lived to face trial, the court would have disagreed with you. There's plenty of evidence to back that claim.
Within a "Three strike" legal system ?
I am sure you are correct, don't make it right, or just.
Within a "Three strike" legal system ?
I am sure you are correct, don't make it right, or just.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
TV journalists shot dead on air
The Legal definition of insanity is far different than the social definition of insanity.
This guy was bat**** crazy, but he knew exactly what he was doing, and what the consequences were likely to be.
This guy was bat**** crazy, but he knew exactly what he was doing, and what the consequences were likely to be.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484923 wrote: What I described was an entirely rational sequence of thoughts. To be insane is to operate under a delusion, there's nothing at all delusional about what I described. Anti-social and self-destructive, yes, but not remotely delusional. And culturally determined, too.
The pre-20th century Malays had a cultural equivalent in "Amok" which was also an anti-social means of bringing a situation to an end.
Delusion is defined in the Wiki as a psychosis; there are many forms of insanity, and 'close cousins' of insanity. I'm afraid that no matter how you, or anyone else for that matter phrases it, this man was insane.
I take it you have checked the definition I supplied in post#8?
It's the ONLY way you can describe his actions. Stating that a jury would disagree is purely surmise, and therefore bootless.
I note that the 'delusional' aspect was only couched AFTER post#8, Spot.
The pre-20th century Malays had a cultural equivalent in "Amok" which was also an anti-social means of bringing a situation to an end.
Delusion is defined in the Wiki as a psychosis; there are many forms of insanity, and 'close cousins' of insanity. I'm afraid that no matter how you, or anyone else for that matter phrases it, this man was insane.
I take it you have checked the definition I supplied in post#8?
It's the ONLY way you can describe his actions. Stating that a jury would disagree is purely surmise, and therefore bootless.
I note that the 'delusional' aspect was only couched AFTER post#8, Spot.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1484951 wrote: Stating that a jury would disagree is purely surmise, and therefore bootless.I didn't mention a jury. It's a matter of law, decided by a judge after hearing medical evidence - the jury isn't invited to express an uninformed opinion, because it has no expertise.
Would you like a list of mass killers tried in the last couple of years in the US who were deemed sane? The cinema chap? The battle-flag of the South chap? Or even the two pre-teen knife-wielding Slenderman girls? Or would you like to suggest a counter-example tried in the last couple of years in the US who was declared insane? How does that class of sane killer differ from this one we're discussing, in your opinion?
Would you like a list of mass killers tried in the last couple of years in the US who were deemed sane? The cinema chap? The battle-flag of the South chap? Or even the two pre-teen knife-wielding Slenderman girls? Or would you like to suggest a counter-example tried in the last couple of years in the US who was declared insane? How does that class of sane killer differ from this one we're discussing, in your opinion?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484963 wrote: I didn't mention a jury. It's a matter of law, decided by a judge after hearing medical evidence - the jury isn't invited to express an uninformed opinion, because it has no expertise.
Would you like a list of mass killers tried in the last couple of years in the US who were deemed sane? The cinema chap? The battle-flag of the South chap? Or even the two pre-teen knife-wielding Slenderman girls? Or would you like to suggest a counter-example tried in the last couple of years in the US who was declared insane? How does that class of sane killer differ from this one we're discussing, in your opinion?
For my money, no matter these killers motives/thought processes, I would still maintain that anyone who guns folk down in cold blood/hot blood cannot be sane, albeit temporary!
What truly sane person could do such a thing? When a person behaves like this, they have 'lost the balance of their mind'. 'Hot blood' is possibly a little more understandable; French justice recognizes this, though I'm not sure about US justice. A thoroughly distasteful subject, with little difference between those killers deemed 'sane' or 'insane', IMO. 'Splitting hairs' springs to mind, as they've all committed terrible crimes which cannot be undone/atoned for in any way.
If someone gunned down one of your family for little/no reason, would you think of them as sane? Killing ex-colleagues because you harbour a grudge is not the action of a sane person, and you'll never convince me otherwise!
You are correct about 'Court' as opposed to 'Jury', Spot. I mis-read the paragraph.
Would you like a list of mass killers tried in the last couple of years in the US who were deemed sane? The cinema chap? The battle-flag of the South chap? Or even the two pre-teen knife-wielding Slenderman girls? Or would you like to suggest a counter-example tried in the last couple of years in the US who was declared insane? How does that class of sane killer differ from this one we're discussing, in your opinion?
For my money, no matter these killers motives/thought processes, I would still maintain that anyone who guns folk down in cold blood/hot blood cannot be sane, albeit temporary!
What truly sane person could do such a thing? When a person behaves like this, they have 'lost the balance of their mind'. 'Hot blood' is possibly a little more understandable; French justice recognizes this, though I'm not sure about US justice. A thoroughly distasteful subject, with little difference between those killers deemed 'sane' or 'insane', IMO. 'Splitting hairs' springs to mind, as they've all committed terrible crimes which cannot be undone/atoned for in any way.
If someone gunned down one of your family for little/no reason, would you think of them as sane? Killing ex-colleagues because you harbour a grudge is not the action of a sane person, and you'll never convince me otherwise!
You are correct about 'Court' as opposed to 'Jury', Spot. I mis-read the paragraph.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
I do note your opinion. I merely wonder why you insist on continuing to hold it in the teeth of actual usage by experts. Why have a vocabulary that's unique to yourself and contradicts official practice? How does it help you communicate?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1484981 wrote: I do note your opinion. I merely wonder why you insist on continuing to hold it in the teeth of actual usage by experts. Why have a vocabulary that's unique to yourself and contradicts official practice? How does it help you communicate?
As I've already stated, and given my reasons for stating, and also the Wiki definition of insanity, why do you persist in questioning my opinion? That's exactly what it is; an opinion, and I won't be changing it anytime soon!
The world's full of 'em; better get used to it. I am perfectly entitled to challenge anyone's opinion, 'expert' or not!
If the 'experts' have deemed him sane, maybe they should check the definition of insanity, and their understanding of it....
As for my vocabulary, there's nothing amiss there. I also understand perfectly well what I, and others read and write! I also have compassion for people, and generally make allowance for people and their foibles/opinions without hectoring or being overly pedantic, so save your covert insults, framed as questions.
For the record, I have a degree in English (language), though I achieved this in 2010, not from school/uni!
I was a lazy git at school....
As I've already stated, and given my reasons for stating, and also the Wiki definition of insanity, why do you persist in questioning my opinion? That's exactly what it is; an opinion, and I won't be changing it anytime soon!
The world's full of 'em; better get used to it. I am perfectly entitled to challenge anyone's opinion, 'expert' or not!
If the 'experts' have deemed him sane, maybe they should check the definition of insanity, and their understanding of it....
As for my vocabulary, there's nothing amiss there. I also understand perfectly well what I, and others read and write! I also have compassion for people, and generally make allowance for people and their foibles/opinions without hectoring or being overly pedantic, so save your covert insults, framed as questions.
For the record, I have a degree in English (language), though I achieved this in 2010, not from school/uni!
I was a lazy git at school....
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1484984 wrote: I was a lazy git at school....And an opinionated one now, it would seem. What puzzles me is that you insist on retaining such an isolated point of view when all you get as a result is an inability to think clearly about the issue. "Oh that's simple, he was insane" is a total get-out from making an effort.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Yawn....As I stated we all have opinions on a variety of subjects. No matter how cold or calculating this killer was, he's still not sane, IMO. If you have been unfairly treated by colleagues or your boss, surely a sane person discusses it in a civilized manner, as opposed to shooting them dead, live on air!!
Sorry to dissapoint you Spot, but I cannot see the point in further discussion on this matter; we're never going to agree on this. There is nothing wrong with my thought process either, no matter what you imply to the contrary. Besides, what gives you the right to question an honestly held opinion in this way? Maybe you should avoid politics, Spot. We could do without another Stalin!
Sorry to dissapoint you Spot, but I cannot see the point in further discussion on this matter; we're never going to agree on this. There is nothing wrong with my thought process either, no matter what you imply to the contrary. Besides, what gives you the right to question an honestly held opinion in this way? Maybe you should avoid politics, Spot. We could do without another Stalin!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
The difference is immense.
If someone in this position is apprehended and adjudged insane then he's a figure to sympathize with, treat medically in a suitably secure hospital and release back into the community once he's been cured.
If he's adjudged sane then he's to be condemned and jailed for the standard three reasons we jail people under the current penal system (punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence).
Labeling them time after time as "insane", as you do, you appear to want to absolve them of any responsibility. Which is odd, because I bet that's the furthest thing from your mind. You're actually using "insane" as a pejorative insult when what you really mean is "wicked".
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
If someone in this position is apprehended and adjudged insane then he's a figure to sympathize with, treat medically in a suitably secure hospital and release back into the community once he's been cured.
If he's adjudged sane then he's to be condemned and jailed for the standard three reasons we jail people under the current penal system (punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence).
Labeling them time after time as "insane", as you do, you appear to want to absolve them of any responsibility. Which is odd, because I bet that's the furthest thing from your mind. You're actually using "insane" as a pejorative insult when what you really mean is "wicked".
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485000 wrote: The difference is immense.
If someone in this position is apprehended and adjudged insane then he's a figure to sympathize with, treat medically in a suitably secure hospital and release back into the community once he's been cured.
If he's adjudged sane then he's to be condemned and jailed for the standard three reasons we jail people under the current penal system (punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence).
Labeling them time after time as "insane", as you do, you seem to want absolve them of any responsibility. Which is odd, because I bet that's the furthest thing from your mind.
I ask you again, Spot. What exactly do you (or anybody else, for that matter) find 'sane' about someone who shoots people dead on live TV?
As regards justice, I would agree with your definitions as to how we treat people judged 'sane' or 'insane', though the dividing line in some cases is rather 'blurred', and a matter of interpretation. This is why we still have a jury in Crown Court in the UK.
Also, I would state here that there are many folk who suffer 'insane' episodes from time to time, to a greater or lesser degree, many of which never make the news.
Regarding 'experts', an old friend coined an amusing definition.
Ex= Has-been.
Spurts= Drips under pressure.
I would take issue with ANYONE, expert or not, who tries to define this deranged lunatic as sane! For the reasons discussed previously, to deem this man as sane surely flies in the face of sense AND reason. But then, that's my opinion, and as previously stated, I won't be changing it anytime soon!
If someone in this position is apprehended and adjudged insane then he's a figure to sympathize with, treat medically in a suitably secure hospital and release back into the community once he's been cured.
If he's adjudged sane then he's to be condemned and jailed for the standard three reasons we jail people under the current penal system (punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence).
Labeling them time after time as "insane", as you do, you seem to want absolve them of any responsibility. Which is odd, because I bet that's the furthest thing from your mind.
I ask you again, Spot. What exactly do you (or anybody else, for that matter) find 'sane' about someone who shoots people dead on live TV?
As regards justice, I would agree with your definitions as to how we treat people judged 'sane' or 'insane', though the dividing line in some cases is rather 'blurred', and a matter of interpretation. This is why we still have a jury in Crown Court in the UK.
Also, I would state here that there are many folk who suffer 'insane' episodes from time to time, to a greater or lesser degree, many of which never make the news.
Regarding 'experts', an old friend coined an amusing definition.
Ex= Has-been.
Spurts= Drips under pressure.
I would take issue with ANYONE, expert or not, who tries to define this deranged lunatic as sane! For the reasons discussed previously, to deem this man as sane surely flies in the face of sense AND reason. But then, that's my opinion, and as previously stated, I won't be changing it anytime soon!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485001 wrote: I ask you again, Spot. What exactly do you (or anybody else, for that matter) find 'sane' about someone who shoots people dead on live TV?
As regards justice, I would agree with your definitions as to how we treat people judged 'sane' or 'insane', though the dividing line in some cases is rather 'blurred', and a matter of interpretation. This is why we still have a jury in Crown Court in the UK.
Also, I would state here that there are many folk who suffer 'insane' episodes from time to time, to a greater or lesser degree, many of which never make the news.
Regarding 'experts', an old friend coined an amusing definition.
Ex= Has-been.
Spurts= Drips under pressure.
I would take issue with ANYONE, expert or not, who tries to define this deranged lunatic as sane! For the reasons discussed previously, to deem this man as sane surely flies in the face of sense AND reason. But then, that's my opinion, and as previously stated, I won't be changing it anytime soon!What I find "sane" about him is that I think he made a deliberate informed choice to kill, as opposed to killing as a result of a mental illness for which he wasn't responsible.
Perhaps you could clear up a puzzle for me then. Had this "deranged lunatic" been apprehended, would you want to see him punished, or would you want to see him cured and released back into the community afterwards? Given that you're utterly convinced he was insane.
As regards justice, I would agree with your definitions as to how we treat people judged 'sane' or 'insane', though the dividing line in some cases is rather 'blurred', and a matter of interpretation. This is why we still have a jury in Crown Court in the UK.
Also, I would state here that there are many folk who suffer 'insane' episodes from time to time, to a greater or lesser degree, many of which never make the news.
Regarding 'experts', an old friend coined an amusing definition.
Ex= Has-been.
Spurts= Drips under pressure.
I would take issue with ANYONE, expert or not, who tries to define this deranged lunatic as sane! For the reasons discussed previously, to deem this man as sane surely flies in the face of sense AND reason. But then, that's my opinion, and as previously stated, I won't be changing it anytime soon!What I find "sane" about him is that I think he made a deliberate informed choice to kill, as opposed to killing as a result of a mental illness for which he wasn't responsible.
Perhaps you could clear up a puzzle for me then. Had this "deranged lunatic" been apprehended, would you want to see him punished, or would you want to see him cured and released back into the community afterwards? Given that you're utterly convinced he was insane.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485002 wrote: Perhaps you could clear up a puzzle for me then. Had this "deranged lunatic" been apprehended, would you want to see him punished, or would you want to see him cured and released back into the community afterwards?
For my money, somewhat of both. I would say that an indefinite incarceration in a top-security mental institution would be in order. Then he could be thoroughly assessed over time, appropriate treatment (if he's treatable) worked out and administered, and eventually a decision taken as to whether he is indeed 'cured', or whether he's always going to present a danger to the public at large. From this long-term treatment programme, and it's results, a decision could possibly be taken as to his future.
For my money, somewhat of both. I would say that an indefinite incarceration in a top-security mental institution would be in order. Then he could be thoroughly assessed over time, appropriate treatment (if he's treatable) worked out and administered, and eventually a decision taken as to whether he is indeed 'cured', or whether he's always going to present a danger to the public at large. From this long-term treatment programme, and it's results, a decision could possibly be taken as to his future.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
So for anyone contemplating this sort of act in future, you're offering no punishment or deterrence whatever? You're telling them that the act itself - nothing else, just the illegal act of going out with a gun and killing people, strangers or acquaintances, without hope a profit motive - defines them as insane, and that they'll consequently be treated in a secure hospital and released when the treatment has succeeded, instead of being jailed?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
How about a third option ?
A short term loss of sanity due to anger or rage, hence the suicide that ended his life.
I am sure we have all experienced a period of illogical acts resulting from anger or pain like throwing the hammer that hit your thumb.
It could also be a temporary depression brought on by who knows what ?
A short term loss of sanity due to anger or rage, hence the suicide that ended his life.
I am sure we have all experienced a period of illogical acts resulting from anger or pain like throwing the hammer that hit your thumb.
It could also be a temporary depression brought on by who knows what ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
TV journalists shot dead on air
Bruv;1485007 wrote: How about a third option ?
A short term loss of sanity due to anger or rage, hence the suicide that ended his life.
I am sure we have all experienced a period of illogical acts resulting from anger or pain like throwing the hammer that hit your thumb.
It could also be a temporary depression brought on by who knows what ?
The live-on-air man was reportedly livid for months before exploding. The battle flag of the confederacy chap spent months planning his church visit and wrote an entire manifesto about it, as did the Norwegian who shot dead 77 Labour youth activists on an island four years ago. And the batman bloke with the smoke grenades didn't acquire his hardware overnight either.
The only difference Smaug and I have is one of vocabulary, and because he didn't answer my question he's painted himself into a corner. The question was:
"What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?".
- because as long as he agrees it's "insane" then he's a bit stuck when it comes to criticizing these killers we're discussing for their behaviour, if he insists on using the same word.
A short term loss of sanity due to anger or rage, hence the suicide that ended his life.
I am sure we have all experienced a period of illogical acts resulting from anger or pain like throwing the hammer that hit your thumb.
It could also be a temporary depression brought on by who knows what ?
The live-on-air man was reportedly livid for months before exploding. The battle flag of the confederacy chap spent months planning his church visit and wrote an entire manifesto about it, as did the Norwegian who shot dead 77 Labour youth activists on an island four years ago. And the batman bloke with the smoke grenades didn't acquire his hardware overnight either.
The only difference Smaug and I have is one of vocabulary, and because he didn't answer my question he's painted himself into a corner. The question was:
"What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?".
- because as long as he agrees it's "insane" then he's a bit stuck when it comes to criticizing these killers we're discussing for their behaviour, if he insists on using the same word.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485004 wrote: So for anyone contemplating this sort of act in future, you're offering no punishment or deterrence whatever? You're telling them that the act itself - nothing else, just the illegal act of going out with a gun and killing people, strangers or acquaintances, without hope a profit motive - defines them as insane, and that they'll consequently be treated in a secure hospital and released when the treatment has succeeded, instead of being jailed?
Read the post again, Spot, and kindly DON'T try putting 'words into my mouth'! I said INDEFINITE incarceration in a secure unit. I certainly wasn't suggesting 'letting him off'. When someone is detained INDEFINITELY, it's usually for many years. Some people NEVER come out, it all depends on the individual, and how he responds to treatment over time.
Are you willfully mis-representing me Spot? And if so, to what end? How would you punish them? Life sentence? Hanging? Beheading? Firing squad? Oubliette? Gassing?
I could ask the same about your attitude to this killer. Did you not suggest that if he was insane, he is worthy of some sympathy? As opposed to just jailing him if he's deemed sane?
You can't have it both ways.
Read the post again, Spot, and kindly DON'T try putting 'words into my mouth'! I said INDEFINITE incarceration in a secure unit. I certainly wasn't suggesting 'letting him off'. When someone is detained INDEFINITELY, it's usually for many years. Some people NEVER come out, it all depends on the individual, and how he responds to treatment over time.
Are you willfully mis-representing me Spot? And if so, to what end? How would you punish them? Life sentence? Hanging? Beheading? Firing squad? Oubliette? Gassing?
I could ask the same about your attitude to this killer. Did you not suggest that if he was insane, he is worthy of some sympathy? As opposed to just jailing him if he's deemed sane?
You can't have it both ways.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485009 wrote: Read the post again, Spot, and kindly DON'T try putting 'words into my mouth'! I said INDEFINITE incarceration in a secure unit. I certainly wasn't suggesting 'letting him off'. When someone is detained INDEFINITELY, it's usually for many years. Some people NEVER come out, it all depends on the individual, and how he responds to treatment over time.
Are you willfully mis-representing me Spot? And if so, to what end? How would you punish them? Life sentence? Hanging? Beheading? Firing squad? Oubliette? Gassing?
I could ask the same about your attitude to this killer. Did you not suggest that if he was insane, he is worthy of some sympathy? As opposed to just jailing him if he's deemed sane?
You can't have it both ways.
What on earth do you think "indefinitely" means??? It means "for an unspecified duration", not a guaranteed "many years" - even you weasel around with "usually" at that point. Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
Are you willfully mis-representing me Spot? And if so, to what end? How would you punish them? Life sentence? Hanging? Beheading? Firing squad? Oubliette? Gassing?
I could ask the same about your attitude to this killer. Did you not suggest that if he was insane, he is worthy of some sympathy? As opposed to just jailing him if he's deemed sane?
You can't have it both ways.
What on earth do you think "indefinitely" means??? It means "for an unspecified duration", not a guaranteed "many years" - even you weasel around with "usually" at that point. Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485011 wrote: What on earth do you think "indefinitely" means??? It means "for an unspecified duration", not a guaranteed "many years" - even you weasel around with "usually" at that point.
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
I take it you've never heard of IPP? It means Indefinite Public Protection, and it's ongoing, as I suspect you know full-well! And you have the 'brass-face' to accuse me of 'weaseling'? Look to your own words before accusing me!! I know for a fact that most prisoners serving IPP sentences in the UK are 'over tariff' on their IPP. I.E. They've served more 'time' than they were originally sentenced to. I know this because one of my friends is a Higher Court Advocate of 30 years standing, whom I've known for many years.
I note that you have avoided answering most of my questions in the previous post. Are they too difficult for you?
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
I take it you've never heard of IPP? It means Indefinite Public Protection, and it's ongoing, as I suspect you know full-well! And you have the 'brass-face' to accuse me of 'weaseling'? Look to your own words before accusing me!! I know for a fact that most prisoners serving IPP sentences in the UK are 'over tariff' on their IPP. I.E. They've served more 'time' than they were originally sentenced to. I know this because one of my friends is a Higher Court Advocate of 30 years standing, whom I've known for many years.
I note that you have avoided answering most of my questions in the previous post. Are they too difficult for you?
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
IPP was abolished in 2012. Anyone still on it from before abolition is only over tariff because there's no new prisoners coming onto it, and the ones left were sentenced so long ago.
I think we cross-posted, I'm sure my previous reply ended up covering all your points. Here it is again, anyway:
Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
I think we cross-posted, I'm sure my previous reply ended up covering all your points. Here it is again, anyway:
Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485014 wrote: IPP was abolished in 2012.
I think we cross-posted, I'm sure my previous reply ended up covering all your points. Here it is again, anyway:
What on earth do you think "indefinitely" means??? It means "for an unspecified duration", not a guaranteed "many years" - even you weasel around with "usually" at that point. Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ.
A week? That's not enough time to cure a good bout of constipation, let alone rehabilitate someone with sociopathic tendencies!!
I think we cross-posted, I'm sure my previous reply ended up covering all your points. Here it is again, anyway:
What on earth do you think "indefinitely" means??? It means "for an unspecified duration", not a guaranteed "many years" - even you weasel around with "usually" at that point. Being in a secure hospital indefinitely is not a punishment, it's (as you say) a treatment.
How would I punish who? The insane? I wouldn't punish them at all. They're insane.
If he was insane, he is worthy of all the sympathy in the world. What makes you suggest I think otherwise. If he - or anyone else - was insane then he wasn't responsible for what happened.
As for how I'd deal with the sane, I'd imprison them. They're antisocial. I'd keep them in prison and rehabilitate them until they're no more of a risk to society than those outside the prison, and then I'd release them back into society. And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ. But I certainly wouldn't release anyone from prison, ever, until they met my rehabilitated requirement. And I'd fine the prison managers every time an ex-prisoner of theirs re-offended, too.
And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ.
A week? That's not enough time to cure a good bout of constipation, let alone rehabilitate someone with sociopathic tendencies!!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485016 wrote: And if I could release them within a week then that would be wonderful - it all depends on how effective a rehabilitation treatment I could legally employ.
A week? That's not enough time to cure a good bout of constipation, let alone rehabilitate someone with sociopathic tendencies!!
For the moment, I'd agree. I have no idea what rehabilitation process might become available in future. My point is that prison, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with punishment.
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
A week? That's not enough time to cure a good bout of constipation, let alone rehabilitate someone with sociopathic tendencies!!
For the moment, I'd agree. I have no idea what rehabilitation process might become available in future. My point is that prison, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with punishment.
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485017 wrote: For the moment, I'd agree. I have no idea what rehabilitation process might become available in future. My point is that prison, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with punishment.
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
Regarding what word(s) I would use for someone with a curable unbalance of mind, temporary/impermanent insanity is one possibility, I suppose. It's a good question, Spot, and there are no easy answers, alas! Boundaries are seldom clear-cut; a murky area open to interpretation, I feel.
What word do you use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it?
Regarding what word(s) I would use for someone with a curable unbalance of mind, temporary/impermanent insanity is one possibility, I suppose. It's a good question, Spot, and there are no easy answers, alas! Boundaries are seldom clear-cut; a murky area open to interpretation, I feel.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485018 wrote: Regarding what word(s) I would use for someone with a curable unbalance of mind, temporary/impermanent insanity is one possibility, I suppose. It's a good question, Spot, and there are no easy answers, alas! Boundaries are seldom clear-cut; a murky area open to interpretation, I feel.
It's a simple question of vocabulary. Check the dictionary of your choice. What word do you, personally, use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it? The question covers most people with mental health problems, it's not a small insignificant group of people. "Temporary/impermanent insanity" is a description, not a label. How would you label them?
It's a simple question of vocabulary. Check the dictionary of your choice. What word do you, personally, use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it? The question covers most people with mental health problems, it's not a small insignificant group of people. "Temporary/impermanent insanity" is a description, not a label. How would you label them?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485020 wrote: It's a simple question of vocabulary. Check the dictionary of your choice. What word do you, personally, use when someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured. If the word isn't "insane", what is it? The question covers most people with mental health problems, it's not a small insignificant group of people. "Temporary/impermanent insanity" is a description, not a label. How would you label them?
I tend to try not to label someone, if I can avoid it, though this isn't always possible without using a stream of verbosity. What word would you employ for this?
You are correct in saying that this group of 'mentally ailing' people, to coin a phrase, is not a small one! Many people have mental illness to a lesser or greater degree.
I could site modern-day hectic lifestyles, work/relationship pressures, the list, and the reasons, are virtually endless.
A growing problem, IMO.
I tend to try not to label someone, if I can avoid it, though this isn't always possible without using a stream of verbosity. What word would you employ for this?
You are correct in saying that this group of 'mentally ailing' people, to coin a phrase, is not a small one! Many people have mental illness to a lesser or greater degree.
I could site modern-day hectic lifestyles, work/relationship pressures, the list, and the reasons, are virtually endless.
A growing problem, IMO.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485022 wrote: I tend to try not to label someone, if I can avoid it, though this isn't always possible without using a stream of verbosity. What word would you employ for this?
When someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured, I'd call them "insane". Because that's what the word means, in dictionaries.
It's why I'd not call the live-tv killer, or the Norwegian island killer, or the Batman killer or the battle flag of the confederacy killer, insane. It's why the courts didn't call any of them insane. Because all of them were responsible for their choices, because none of them were insane. Sane meaning that one's responsible for one's actions.
That's why we use dictionaries, so we use the same meaning for words, so we can communicate.
When someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured, I'd call them "insane". Because that's what the word means, in dictionaries.
It's why I'd not call the live-tv killer, or the Norwegian island killer, or the Batman killer or the battle flag of the confederacy killer, insane. It's why the courts didn't call any of them insane. Because all of them were responsible for their choices, because none of them were insane. Sane meaning that one's responsible for one's actions.
That's why we use dictionaries, so we use the same meaning for words, so we can communicate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485023 wrote: When someone's not at fault because their mind is unbalanced, and they can be cured, I'd call them "insane". Because that's what the word means, in dictionaries.
It's why I'd not call the live-tv killer, or the Norwegian island killer, or the Batman killer or the battle flag of the confederacy killer, insane. It's why the courts didn't call any of them insane. Because all of them were responsible for their choices, because none of them were insane. Sane meaning that one's responsible for one's actions.
That's why we use dictionaries, so we use the same meaning for words, so we can communicate.
I've already posted the Wiki link for the definition of insanity. Insanity has many 'close cousins', such as sociopathy and psychosis. If you, or they, for that matter, wish to label them as 'sane', then the definition is being used incorrectly. We have come full-circle on this, and as I've stated (several times now), I won't be changing my opinion on this matter. Anyone taking life as 'revenge' for a relatively trivial matter (in comparison to the revenge), has left the path of sanity, even if only TEMPORARILY!
How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here.
It's why I'd not call the live-tv killer, or the Norwegian island killer, or the Batman killer or the battle flag of the confederacy killer, insane. It's why the courts didn't call any of them insane. Because all of them were responsible for their choices, because none of them were insane. Sane meaning that one's responsible for one's actions.
That's why we use dictionaries, so we use the same meaning for words, so we can communicate.
I've already posted the Wiki link for the definition of insanity. Insanity has many 'close cousins', such as sociopathy and psychosis. If you, or they, for that matter, wish to label them as 'sane', then the definition is being used incorrectly. We have come full-circle on this, and as I've stated (several times now), I won't be changing my opinion on this matter. Anyone taking life as 'revenge' for a relatively trivial matter (in comparison to the revenge), has left the path of sanity, even if only TEMPORARILY!
How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485024 wrote: I've already posted the Wiki link for the definition of insanity. Insanity has many 'close cousins', such as sociopathy and psychosis. If you, or they, for that matter, wish to label them as 'sane', then the definition is being used incorrectly. We have come full-circle on this, and as I've stated (several times now), I won't be changing my opinion on this matter. Anyone taking life as 'revenge' for a relatively trivial matter (in comparison to the revenge), has left the path of sanity, even if only TEMPORARILY!
How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here.
I've been checking through my prior assumptions - it's possible I got something wrong at an early stage.
Do you, in fact, feel sympathy for these killers we've been discussing, whom you insist on describing as insane and not responsible for their actions? Or do you refuse them sympathy because you consider them in some sense blame-worthy.
How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here.
I've been checking through my prior assumptions - it's possible I got something wrong at an early stage.
Do you, in fact, feel sympathy for these killers we've been discussing, whom you insist on describing as insane and not responsible for their actions? Or do you refuse them sympathy because you consider them in some sense blame-worthy.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485025 wrote: I've been checking through my prior assumptions - it's possible I got something wrong at an early stage.
Do you, in fact, feel sympathy for these killers we've been discussing, whom you insist on describing as insane and not responsible for their actions? Or do you refuse them sympathy because you consider them in some sense blame-worthy.
That's a very good multiple question!
Do I feel sympathy? Not sure if I've got a year spare to ponder that one,Spot! If pushed,I would say I have a small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire', so-to-speak.
Punishment? Again, difficult to answer quickly, but humane punishment should come into it somewhere, if only to act as a deterrent to other folk who are coming close to 'losing it in a big way'.
Rehabilitation? If this can be achieved, then I say 'yes' to that;-we've at least got to try that option, though with caution, humanely and with safeguards.
Reparations? No amount of money will ease the pain that the victims' loved ones are feeling, so, as above, punishment should be one of the elements involved.
What do you feel about it?
Apologies if any spelling errors/'typos' that may occur. I have terrible band-width problems here at present, and a ruddy awful Toshiba laptop keyboard to contend with, which forces me to painstakingly correct the many keyboard errors that continually occur. Site rules prevent me from giving proper vent to my frustration and fury at the damn thing!!!
Whatever you do, DON'T buy a Toshiba, for crying out loud, Spot!
Do you, in fact, feel sympathy for these killers we've been discussing, whom you insist on describing as insane and not responsible for their actions? Or do you refuse them sympathy because you consider them in some sense blame-worthy.
That's a very good multiple question!
Do I feel sympathy? Not sure if I've got a year spare to ponder that one,Spot! If pushed,I would say I have a small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire', so-to-speak.
Punishment? Again, difficult to answer quickly, but humane punishment should come into it somewhere, if only to act as a deterrent to other folk who are coming close to 'losing it in a big way'.
Rehabilitation? If this can be achieved, then I say 'yes' to that;-we've at least got to try that option, though with caution, humanely and with safeguards.
Reparations? No amount of money will ease the pain that the victims' loved ones are feeling, so, as above, punishment should be one of the elements involved.
What do you feel about it?
Apologies if any spelling errors/'typos' that may occur. I have terrible band-width problems here at present, and a ruddy awful Toshiba laptop keyboard to contend with, which forces me to painstakingly correct the many keyboard errors that continually occur. Site rules prevent me from giving proper vent to my frustration and fury at the damn thing!!!
Whatever you do, DON'T buy a Toshiba, for crying out loud, Spot!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485026 wrote: That's a very good multiple question!
Do I feel sympathy? Not sure if I've got a year spare to ponder that one,Spot! If pushed,I would say I have a small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire', so-to-speak.
Go a little further - you also mentioned "How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here."Is the "small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire'" of the same degree for the killer example and for the suicide-whilst-the-balance example? Or is there a different level of sympathy.
Do I feel sympathy? Not sure if I've got a year spare to ponder that one,Spot! If pushed,I would say I have a small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire', so-to-speak.
Go a little further - you also mentioned "How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here."Is the "small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire'" of the same degree for the killer example and for the suicide-whilst-the-balance example? Or is there a different level of sympathy.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485027 wrote: Go a little further - you also mentioned "How many times have we heard/read about someone committing suicide whilst 'The balance of their mind was impaired'? It's a similar scenario here."Is the "small sympathy for a 'mind gone haywire'" of the same degree for the killer example and for the suicide-whilst-the-balance example? Or is there a different level of sympathy.
I have much sympathy for some poor, tormented soul that decides life is now intolerable, and can see no other solution, bar suicide.
Murder is another matter. I could have sympathy with someone who kills the person who murdered a loved one, or who kills someone in defence of family or loved ones, but not be particularly sympathetic to a person who commits murder to settle a relatively minor dispute or problem.
I hope that answers your questions.
I have much sympathy for some poor, tormented soul that decides life is now intolerable, and can see no other solution, bar suicide.
Murder is another matter. I could have sympathy with someone who kills the person who murdered a loved one, or who kills someone in defence of family or loved ones, but not be particularly sympathetic to a person who commits murder to settle a relatively minor dispute or problem.
I hope that answers your questions.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485028 wrote: I hope that answers your questions.
I would merely wonder why, if all these people are insane and consequently not responsible for their actions, you would qualify the degree of your sympathy in that way. Why is it not an unqualified sympathy in all cases?
I would merely wonder why, if all these people are insane and consequently not responsible for their actions, you would qualify the degree of your sympathy in that way. Why is it not an unqualified sympathy in all cases?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485029 wrote: I would merely wonder why, if all these people are insane and consequently not responsible for their actions, you would qualify the degree of your sympathy in that way. Why is it not an unqualified sympathy in all cases?
The sympathy level, for me, is qualified by the actions undertaken. Murder has a massive impact on not just the victim, but the victim's family and loved ones, and is a very final, aggressive, self-satisfying/pitying thing.
Suicide, whilst having a similar impact on the family of the deceased, though also selfish/self-pitying, causes no physical harm to other innocent people (unless that person jumps off a bridge and lands on someone!), and is worthy of sympathy for those reasons. This is my opinion. You doubtless have your own opinion on this, and like myself, you're entitled to it.
We are not forced to agree with one another's opinion(s), but you did ask!
The sympathy level, for me, is qualified by the actions undertaken. Murder has a massive impact on not just the victim, but the victim's family and loved ones, and is a very final, aggressive, self-satisfying/pitying thing.
Suicide, whilst having a similar impact on the family of the deceased, though also selfish/self-pitying, causes no physical harm to other innocent people (unless that person jumps off a bridge and lands on someone!), and is worthy of sympathy for those reasons. This is my opinion. You doubtless have your own opinion on this, and like myself, you're entitled to it.
We are not forced to agree with one another's opinion(s), but you did ask!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485030 wrote: The sympathy level, for me, is qualified by the actions undertaken. Murder has a massive impact on not just the victim, but the victim's family and loved ones, and is a very final, aggressive, self-satisfying/pitying thing.
Suicide, whilst having a similar impact on the family of the deceased, though also selfish/self-pitying, causes no physical harm to other innocent people (unless that person jumps off a bridge and lands on someone!), and is worthy of sympathy for those reasons. This is my opinion. You doubtless have your own opinion on this, and like myself, you're entitled to it.
We are not forced to agree with one another's opinion(s), but you did ask!
You appear to believe that the insane are still responsible for their actions, then?
Suicide, whilst having a similar impact on the family of the deceased, though also selfish/self-pitying, causes no physical harm to other innocent people (unless that person jumps off a bridge and lands on someone!), and is worthy of sympathy for those reasons. This is my opinion. You doubtless have your own opinion on this, and like myself, you're entitled to it.
We are not forced to agree with one another's opinion(s), but you did ask!
You appear to believe that the insane are still responsible for their actions, then?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485031 wrote: You appear to believe that the insane are still responsible for their actions, then?
The legal definition of insane is quite specific. The person has to be disassociated from reality while committing the criminal act, and not at all capable of considering the consequences of his actions.
That leaves out a significant majority of these people, regardless of just how mentally deranged they must have been.
The legal definition of insane is quite specific. The person has to be disassociated from reality while committing the criminal act, and not at all capable of considering the consequences of his actions.
That leaves out a significant majority of these people, regardless of just how mentally deranged they must have been.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
TV journalists shot dead on air
spot;1485031 wrote: You appear to believe that the insane are still responsible for their actions, then?
Responsibility for actions taken ultimately rests with the person concerned;- some remote person didn't push a 'go berserk now' button, did they?
Obviously, state of mind has to be considered, but it is not an absolution for committing serious crime!
Responsibility for actions taken ultimately rests with the person concerned;- some remote person didn't push a 'go berserk now' button, did they?
Obviously, state of mind has to be considered, but it is not an absolution for committing serious crime!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
TV journalists shot dead on air
Smaug;1485033 wrote: Responsibility for actions taken ultimately rests with the person concerned;- some remote person didn't push a 'go berserk now' button, did they?
Obviously, state of mind has to be considered, but it is not an absolution for committing serious crime!
There we are, I'm glad we nailed down where the difference in definition actually lies.
Yes, it is an absolution for committing serious crime.
And no, responsibility for actions taken does not ultimately rest with the person concerned if they're insane.
Obviously, state of mind has to be considered, but it is not an absolution for committing serious crime!
There we are, I'm glad we nailed down where the difference in definition actually lies.
Yes, it is an absolution for committing serious crime.
And no, responsibility for actions taken does not ultimately rest with the person concerned if they're insane.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
TV journalists shot dead on air
For reference, here's the core of English law on the subject of insanity, responsibility and "absolution for committing serious crime" - the bolding is mine:Special verdict where accused found guilty, but insane at date of act or omission charged, and orders thereupon.
Where in any indictment or information any act or omission is charged against any person as an offence, and it is given in evidence on the trial of such person for that offence that he was insane, so as not to be responsible, according to law, for his actions at the time when the act was done or omission made, then, if it appears to the jury before whom such person is tried that he did the act or made the omission charged, but was insane as aforesaid at the time when he did or made the same, the jury shall return a special verdict that the accused is not guilty by reason of insanity.
Trial Of Lunatics Act 1883
I said earlier, relating to American court practice, that it's up to the judge on medical advice. In England it's a matter for the jury. I may easily be wrong about the American court, but that's what I think happens there. Someone might know better.
Where in any indictment or information any act or omission is charged against any person as an offence, and it is given in evidence on the trial of such person for that offence that he was insane, so as not to be responsible, according to law, for his actions at the time when the act was done or omission made, then, if it appears to the jury before whom such person is tried that he did the act or made the omission charged, but was insane as aforesaid at the time when he did or made the same, the jury shall return a special verdict that the accused is not guilty by reason of insanity.
Trial Of Lunatics Act 1883
I said earlier, relating to American court practice, that it's up to the judge on medical advice. In England it's a matter for the jury. I may easily be wrong about the American court, but that's what I think happens there. Someone might know better.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.