hows this for a single 24 hour period

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:23 am

the other half and i get a letter yesterday from some cowboy builder saying were being taken to the small claims court

the other half has is OU exam today for the second year of his degree course

and ive just found out my gran got burgled last night while she was in the house.... thankfully she wasnt hurt but really who would do that to a 90 year old woman??

a great 24 hours!

orangesox1 · Post by **orangesox1** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:45 am

Thats awful about your Gran, she must be really shaken up by it, I'm so sorry for her, some people are just scum.

chrisb84uk · Post by **chrisb84uk** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:59 am

Hey really sorry to hear about your day PP, especially the news about your gran being burgled, (sadly they always seem to target the elderly, gits!!!!)

Hopefully things will even themselves out though, and you will have a great day soon, and things will look up for you and your family!! :-6

jasmund · Post by **jasmund** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:05 am

Did they catch the SOB , or have at least a general idea who they are looking for.

-Dont sweat the small claims court thing to much, ask for advice from FG members

fill us in . Maybe we can help

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:10 am

Ick! I hope they didn't take anything too valuable from your gran, but it's good that she's OK. Can I ask what the court thing is about? Maybe someone here can help. I hope your day gets better!

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:14 am

Cowardly shitbags !

People that prey on the elderly are the weakest of the weak. Feeble in mind, spirit, heart and soul.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:32 am

What Nomad said, plus hugs. :yh_hugs

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:33 am

OH dear, I hope the vermin that went after your gran are soon caught.

What is OU exam?

robinseggs · Post by **robinseggs** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:55 am

So sorry! That is awful! You should have a good rest of the year....deserve it! Your poor Gran......she needs a BIG DOG!

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:25 am

thanks everyone

sorry i posted that then kind of disappeared, i just seem to have had a million things to do

OU is Open University, its what a lot of people do if they didnt go to uni whne they were younger, you do a degree in your own time and pay for it yourself

as for my gran, shes ok she wasnt physically hurt but i doubt they will catch the whatsits, they even told her they were the police and then asked her to check her jewellery and show them where it was..... thankfully she was so upset etc she confused and took them to the wrong place.... shes a 90 year old woman for f's sake, i mean who would do that?

the builder thing.... well ive struck lucky there, i had a friend at school, not a close close friend but a friend whose gone into law, not the necessary section that deals with my problem but her boyf does and looks like hes gonna help us out.... so there are some good people left in the world and the wierd thing is that you tend to find them in the strangest of times and circumstances

however anyone out there who knows someone who could find out some 'info' on this guy for me.... well id love to hear from you!! im VERY curious to see if hes been taken to court about this kind of thing before....

what a run of luck.... mind you i still dont think its tops the post jives made about his run of 'luck'!

Valerie100 · Post by **Valerie100** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:06 pm

Sorry to hear about your grandmother. It's sad to say, but seniors and single women -- anyone who could be considered easy targets and physically weaker -- are more vulnerable to crime. The perpetraitor is obviously a coward, not committing a crime against someone who could possibly give him a fair fight. I hope they catch him. I'm glad your grandmother is okay.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:16 pm

it's dead quiet around here, so i will tell you a bit of a long story...i want you to take heart about the beast who robbed your Gran. i have a dear friend, a very elderly lady who lived near me and treats me like a daughter. on Christmas Eve 4 years ago some bitch broke into her home in broad daylight, put a knife to her throat and duct taped her all over her body. then stole all of $200. she, my friend, was never the same again and never will be...she still has nightmares and lives in fear. well it took a year, but we got the bitch. fingerprints on the duct tape thankfully. i have to tell you, it was a very hard thing for me to remain professional in my dealings with her, and never mentioned my friend, or i could have been accused of treating her badly for personal reasons. (i never treated her badly). anyway, i had the jail/booking call me when we were releasing her to the state for prison, and i made sure i was there when she left our custody and got in the prison van. OOPS! watch that step, you might fall down!!and i whispered a few things in her ear.

sometimes there's justice.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:56 pm

orangesox1 wrote: Thats awful about your Gran, she must be really shaken up by it, I'm so sorry for her, some people are just scum.

I really cannot stand people who prey on the weak. It rankles me to no end. They deserve to be pummeled when they are convicted. The heck with a jail term - take them out back and stone them.

I'm sorry about the rest of your day too :-4

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:02 am

thanks for the hugs and love everyone

and thanks for all the good wishes

gran seems ok, sounds like theres a gang of them going round pulling this stunt in the area at the moment so shes not the first victim of it

as for the other half, fingers crossed for the results, he said the exam was harder than he thought it would be but i usually found that was a good sign....

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:00 am

Pink Princess, are you being sued by the builderr guy or are you suing him?

The small claims procedure is relatively straightforward and county courts in the UK all have free leaflets to help you (since I imagine you won't retain a lawyer - they'd probably charge you more than the case is worth).

You can't usually access the litigation history of other people unless you're in criminal proceedings or where there is an allegation of abuse of process (where people file idiotic or hopeless claims time and time again). A District Judge won't normally allow you to get the information because there are confidentiality issues at stake.

I assume the basis of the claim is contractual (ie terms and conditions of the work undertaken) or if you're suing him, negligence (ie he screwed up) ?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:08 am

Personally speaking I think a couple of nights in the slammer would do you some good pp (:wah: )

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:59 am

Yavanna wrote: Pink Princess, are you being sued by the builderr guy or are you suing him?

The small claims procedure is relatively straightforward and county courts in the UK all have free leaflets to help you (since I imagine you won't retain a lawyer - they'd probably charge you more than the case is worth).

You can't usually access the litigation history of other people unless you're in criminal proceedings or where there is an allegation of abuse of process (where people file idiotic or hopeless claims time and time again). A District Judge won't normally allow you to get the information because there are confidentiality issues at stake.

I assume the basis of the claim is contractual (ie terms and conditions of the work undertaken) or if you're suing him, negligence (ie he screwed up) ?

hes claiming against us because we didnt pay him all of his money, we are going to counterclaim and say he did a rubbish job and that we now have to pay someone to come in to undo his work and do it properly.....

think i might contact watchdog or something in the hope they took the case up to totally and completely embarass him!! hes a horrible man and i shall hate him forever!

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:01 am

Nomad wrote: Personally speaking I think a couple of nights in the slammer would do you some good pp (:wah: )

but can it be all nicely decorated with an en-suite and pink soft furnishings?

ooooh and can it have a puppy?!

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:58 am

pink princess wrote: hes claiming against us because we didnt pay him all of his money, we are going to counterclaim and say he did a rubbish job and that we now have to pay someone to come in to undo his work and do it properly.....

think i might contact watchdog or something in the hope they took the case up to totally and completely embarass him!! hes a horrible man and i shall hate him forever!

In that case, I'd get the guy or company you used to come and rectify the cowboy's mistakes to do you a short letter or report - and ask if he'd be a witness for you ! Nothing better to challenge one so-called expert's work than having the expert who put it right come to court. He should be in a position to tell the judge exactly how negligently your first builder did the job.

Also, got any photos of the botch job he did ? If so, exhibit those to your defence and counter-claim.

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:20 am

Yavanna sounds like you know what your talking about have you been through this before?

had another stroke of luck, i work at a HUGE compay with hundreds of different divisions and ive found a building division, phoned them and they said that if we pop over and see them they will most likely be able to help us and put together a survey report of the work, so hopefully that will add to our case

i think the problem we face is that a judge may say we shouldnt have thrown him off the property and should have let him finish/rectify the work so we were in breach of contract first....

but basically we had absolutely no confidence that he could complete the work to a safe standard let alone one that was asthetically pleasing.... i think thats going to have to be our main defence

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:47 am

I'm a lawyer - I don't specialise in this area of work, but it's a common problem.

Your point about rectification is a good one - did he offer to rectify the problem at the time, or later in correspondence? In any event, if you took the view that his negligence was so obvious and fundamental, you can make the argument that it went to the heart of your contract with him ie he screwed up so badly it was reasonable for you to think that he would be unable to rectify the problem.

If the screw up was a small matter, you may have a tougher time with the judge.

Also, what proportion of his bill did you pay him ? Did he cash the cheque (in which case you could try an argument that he accepted it as full payment) ?

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:40 pm

thought you must be involved somewhere in law, you seemed to know what you were talking about

he came round and we said to him that we didnt want him to continue because it was all so awful, basically he said to us that he was planning to relift it and lay it again and that it wasnt finished (despite the obvious use of concrete and a phonecall the previous evening where he had said it was laid and whatever we did we shouldnt walk on the edge slabs because they were fixed in place)

he so blatently lied to us that we lost confidence in him even more in his ability to do the work to a safe and professional level

if he hadnt lied to our faces and tried to squirm like a kid would at school with a teacher we would probably have given him the chance to redo the work

once we got the first letter from him saying he wanted money or he wanted to be able to come back and finish the work we replied and said he could finish the work under a new contract with new terms which we basically just nicked out of the supply of services act, hes now issued the court papers saying the terms of the contract we want to enter are unfair....

we paid him the money in cash.... more as a goodwill gesture than anything else, certainly not as an acceptance of any level of work because it was all quite simply terrible and we are now left without a patio and are unable to progress with getting one until this whole sorry mess is over

i used to want to be a lawyer, if only id stuck with it, id love to have my day in court with him!

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:29 am

Questions that occur to me - did he give you a written estimate/quotation ? If so, how much of that did you pay?

-Presumbly, he will either admit that you have part-paid him or you can get a bank statement showing that you withdrew the money you gave him (assuming he didn't give you a receipt!)

- You should ensure that your defence & counter-claim make it clear that he his suggestion to lift the concrete he had laid was unreasonable/adding to delay etc

-You can't offer him a new contract I'm afraid - that's a unilateral action which he evidently didn't agree to. You either stick with the position that he breached your contract fundamentally (not just making a mistake, but by making a mistake that clearly left you doubting his ability to do the job at all) or you let him carry on working under the existing contract.

Just as a matter of interest, has he got qualifications or was he recommended to you by word of mouth?

pink princess · Post by **pink princess** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:57 am

Yavanna wrote: Questions that occur to me - did he give you a written estimate/quotation ? If so, how much of that did you pay?

we paid about 10% of the agreed figure - but as i said more out of goodwill than anything

Yavanna wrote: -Presumbly, he will either admit that you have part-paid him or you can get a bank statement showing that you withdrew the money you gave him (assuming he didn't give you a receipt!)

yep hes admitting we have part paid him, we just gave him some cash

Yavanna wrote: - You should ensure that your defence & counter-claim make it clear that he his suggestion to lift the concrete he had laid was unreasonable/adding to delay etc

good point, hadnt looked at it form that angle, in as much as it would take even longer etc etc

Yavanna wrote: -You can't offer him a new contract I'm afraid - that's a unilateral action which he evidently didn't agree to. You either stick with the position that he breached your contract fundamentally (not just making a mistake, but by making a mistake that clearly left you doubting his ability to do the job at all) or you let him carry on working under the existing contract.

we already have offered the new contract, when he first wrote we replied, we didnt mention money but said he could come back and complete the work under a new contract as we had lost faith in his ability in the old one, we stipulated terms which we basically took out of the supply of services act 1982 - we spoke to trading standards and they said it was ok to do that.......... if we had reported him now to TS would that be good in terms of mentioning it on our day in court? as in showing that were not just horrible people who have tried to rip off a poor vulnerable builder but in fact have had a dodgy experience and wanht to prevent him doing it again....

Yavanna wrote: Just as a matter of interest, has he got qualifications or was he recommended to you by word of mouth?

i doubt he has any qualifications but yes he was recommended by word of mouth and someone fairly close to us not just friend of a friend kind of thing

- have i mentioned hes stating that the work was 80% complete? im thinking he may in some ways be shooting himself in the foot because hes said its more than 80% completebutg its in fact unusable and dangerous...... although the other side of it is that a judge may sympathise with him (why i dont know!) and say hes completed more than 80% so regardless of whether its usable or not he should be paid for his work (no materials provided just the labour)

weve got someone starting our survey report tomorrow so hopefully when ia judge reads that they wont have much choice but to side with us.......

your opinions as ever more than welcome and always appreciated

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:44 am

Well, since I don't specialise in contract law I'd be cautious about taking my word above trading standards! :-3

But I'm sure you can't offer a new contract unless both sides agree that the old one has been terminated. If he agreed that, he wouldn't be suing you under the old verbal contract I would have thought.

I think reporting him to trading standards needs to be thought out - I'd have a word with them I think to see what the procedure and consequences are.

Re your survey - is the surveyor willing to be a witness? You will receive from court in due course a form asking you to list witnesses etc. It may be the report itself will be sufficient but your builder is entitled to cross-examine him.