The War With Isis Can Never Be Won

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:56 pm

The War With Isis Can Never Be Won

Until the Isis Belief System and the rewards of Martyrdom are totally discredited Isis will continue to grow and appeal to some Muslims as well as non Muslims, but who will effectively be able to do the discrediting, and do it in a manner that Isis members themselves will believe the discrediting?

I don't advocate this, but until every Muslim on earth ceases to exist this so called war will never end

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:35 pm

Think that is what Hitler thought too Lon.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:50 pm

I have already stated in another thread that the only way to convince a Muslim NOT to commit terrorist atrocities is to convince him that such actions run contrary to Allah's wishes, and will bring eternal damnation. Couple that with Western nations not interfering with cultures they don't understand fully, and we might start to get somewhere. If we were to try and eliminate every single Muslim from the Earth, that would make us at least as bad as the worst terrorists ever born, would it not?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:52 pm

Bruv;1489537 wrote: Think that is what Hitler thought too Lon.

That's not a good comparison Bruv.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:16 am

Smaug;1489540 wrote: I have already stated in another thread that the only way to convince a Muslim NOT to commit terrorist atrocities is to convince him that such actions run contrary to Allah's wishes, and will bring eternal damnation. Couple that with Western nations not interfering with cultures they don't understand fully, and we might start to get somewhere. If we were to try and eliminate every single Muslim from the Earth, that would make us at least as bad as the worst terrorists ever born, would it not?

You do bring up some valid points, Smaug.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/opini ... ottom-well

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:25 am

I honestly do not believe that most of the Muslim people involved in this like or enjoy the killing, but some obviously feel that it's their sacred duty to do so. Fundamentalist Christians are really no different though. That's truly a shame. Add to that the innate competitive nature and we end up where we are, which is: their brutality against our brutality - who can be the most brutal. Here in America brutality is practiced and honed on animals and people of color.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:29 am

Ahso!;1489557 wrote: Fundamentalist Christians are really no different though.

What Christians, fundamentalists or otherwise doing anything like what happened in France?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:42 am

tude dog;1489565 wrote: What Christians, fundamentalists or otherwise doing anything like what happened in France?

I suggest you read a history book of some sort.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:51 am

Ahso!;1489567 wrote: I suggest you read a history book of some sort.

So you just wrote some BS.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:54 am

How many people did the kkk hang? Over 3400 was it? And that's just the ones that are known, not to mention all the torture, mutilations and other atrocities that didn't result in death.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:15 am

Sometimes, we cannot win a war, because we are fighting the wrong enemy.

What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters | The Nation

ï»¿ â€œWe need the war to be over, we need security, we are tired of so much warâ€¦. all I want is to be with my family, my children.â€

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:38 am

Ahso!;1489570 wrote: How many people did the kkk hang?

The Ku Klux Klan? Thought you were claiming Fundamentalist Christians.

Ahso!;1489570 wrote: Over 3400 was it?

Don't ask me. I don't know what you are talking about.

Ahso!;1489570 wrote: And that's just the ones that are known, not to mention all the torture, mutilations and other atrocities that didn't result in death.

I can't believe such a thing was never reported in the news. Somebody's gotta be pulling your leg.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:39 am

LarsMac;1489574 wrote: Sometimes, we cannot win a war, because we are fighting the wrong enemy.

What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters | The Nation

Thats absolutely right and sometimes the enemy is a little closer to home and canvassing for our votes.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:57 am

Bruv;1489537 wrote: Think that is what Hitler thought too Lon.

Well they were both right. There are still skinheads. Personally, I believe technology will solve this question like so many others. Wormhole technology should be able to photograph the past. Then we'll be able to actually view the birth of various religions, including Islam. How many will still worship Mohammed when they personally see him being a road bandit, burning, looting, and being a total jerk?

No miracles, no divinity, just a small town hood that got kicked out of his own town, raided caravans for a while, amassed a gang, and then went megalomaniacal.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:16 pm

Smaug;1489540 wrote: I have already stated in another thread that the only way to convince a Muslim NOT to commit terrorist atrocities is to convince him that such actions run contrary to Allah's wishes, and will bring eternal damnation. Couple that with Western nations not interfering with cultures they don't understand fully, and we might start to get somewhere. If we were to try and eliminate every single Muslim from the Earth, that would make us at least as bad as the worst terrorists ever born, would it not?

Yes, but it would solve the problem would it not? Perhaps the Christian God could pull of Miracle and make them all disapear.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:19 pm

You know, there is a story of a famous general who was trying to stifle Islamic atrocities in his area, in Afghanistan I think. He gathered up all the known terrorists, then had them sprayed with pig's blood, then immediately executed them. That was the end of terrorism in that sector for decades. You see, Muslims consider pig's blood unclean, so dying with it on themselves sent those people straight to hell in their minds.

Not advocating, just agreeing that using a religion against religious extremists is probably a good idea.

Edit: I researched this and it is an unsubstantiated story of General "Black Jack" Pershing. Still, something along these lines would make good propaganda. Get a guy to pretend to be a Muslim Imam and have him state that he had had a vision from Allah that terrorists go to Hell. Let the video go viral.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:51 pm

tude dog;1489565 wrote: What Christians, fundamentalists or otherwise doing anything like what happened in France?

Like your good self I can think of dozens of examples from the past but if you want more recent examples tghere was the ethnic cleansing in bosnia when muslims were rounded up and slaughtered by christians though in fairness maybe greek orthodoc christians don't count as proper christians, certainly they don't count as such to protestant fundamentalists.

There is also rwanda where tghe catholic church played a central role you don't hear very mucj about.

The Catholic church must apologise for its role in Rwanda's genocide | Chris McGreal | Comment is free | The Guardian

It's not an isolated case. After the genocide, a network of clergy and church organisations brought priests and nuns with blood on their hands in Rwanda to Europe and sheltered them. They included Father Athanase Seromba who ordered the bulldozing of his church with 2,000 Tutsis inside and had the survivors shot. Catholic monks helped him get to Italy, change his name and become a parish priest in Florence.

After Seromba was exposed, the international tribunal's chief prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, accused the Vatican of obstructing his extradition to face trial. The Holy See told her the priest was "doing good works" in Italy. Another Rwanda priest taken on in Italy is facing charges of overseeing the massacre of disabled Tutsi children.

For two decades, the Vatican has maintained that, while individual clergy were guilty of terrible crimes, the church as an institution bears no responsibility. The Holy See would prefer the world to focus on the more than 200 priests and nuns killed in the genocide. But, while there is no doubt there were courageous members of the clergy, many Tutsi survivors regard the church as allied with the killers and culpability as beginning at the very top of the Catholic hierarchy in Rwanda.

Archbishop Vincent Nsengiyumva was so closely attached to the Hutu power structure that for nearly 15 years he sat in the ruling party's central committee as it implemented the policies of discrimination and demonisation that laid the ground for genocide. His political affiliations left him well placed to at least try to urge the regime to stop the killing in 1994 and to have been a strong moral voice in public against the slaughter. Instead, he was incapable even of calling the massacres a genocide let alone condemning the politicians and military officers leading them. The archbishop became so compromised that witnesses said he stood by as Tutsi priests, monks and a nun were taken to be murdered.

Pope frances while he condemned the charlie hebdo massacre also said that they in part brought it on themselves for criticisng islam.

He added: â€œItâ€™s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.â€

In other words religious beliefs should not be challenged no matter what detrimental effect they have on society.

It's not just christians at it in India the fundamentalist hundu nationalist leading the party is turning a blind eye to attacks on sikhs and muslims and other religious minorities while being feted in this country and the US

Hindu nationalists are gaining power in India - and silencing enemies along the way | Asia | News | The Independent

By the way ibn case you had forgotten india is a nuclear power as is pakistan.

In the year 2015 stone age religions are dragging us in to to war.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:09 pm

LarsMac;1489574 wrote: Sometimes, we cannot win a war, because we are fighting the wrong enemy.

That eureka moment?

I suspect the answer to why ISIS happened at all is a combination of many reasons, and Islam is only the glue that holds it together, or the banner that they rally behind.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:11 pm

Lon;1489581 wrote: Yes, but it would solve the problem would it not? Perhaps the Christian God could pull of Miracle and make them all disapear.

Somehow, I doubt that getting rid of all the Muslims will solve any real problems we may have on this planet.

And since both Christians and Muslims basically worship the same God, even if they give him different names, asking him to takes sides in all this BS might result in far less desirable consequences than any of them could imagine.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:16 pm

Another thing that might end all religion is if we solve the problem of immortality. People mostly worship God because of a fear of the afterlife. What if there was no afterlife? Google's working on that right now.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:34 pm

tude dog;1489577 wrote: The Ku Klux Klan? Thought you were claiming Fundamentalist Christians.You didn't know that the kkk was/is a Christian organization?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:42 pm

along-for-the-ride;1489556 wrote: You do bring up some valid points, Smaug.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/opini ... ottom-well

Thanks, AFTR. I know a little about Islam and Muslims,simply because I've got a few Muslim friends and acquaintances. They take their religion very seriously (most of them), and I'm convinced that if you can convince a Muslim by use of religion to accept or reject a certain viewpoint, it stands a good chance of effecting a lasting 'cure'.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:43 pm

Ahso!;1489598 wrote: You didn't know that the kkk was/is a Christian organization?

Please use quotation marks when referring to the KKK as "Christian." They're about as Christian as the Skinheads are German.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:55 pm

Saint_;1489600 wrote: Please use quotation marks when referring to the KKK as "Christian." They're about as Christian as the Skinheads are German.The president of a Virginia Ku Klux Klan group claims that the KKK is a faith-based Christian organization that does not condone violence.

"We don't hate people because of their race. We are a Christian organization," Frank Ancona, the imperial wizard of the Traditional American Knights of the KKK, told NBC 12, distancing himself from the Klan's violent history, asserting that he is seeking to "set the record straigh

[...]

Despite Ancona's claims, the KKK are widely reviled for their history of committing acts of violence against African Americans, including lighting their homes on fire, lynchings, and leaving burning crosses in the front yards of homes and churches. An organization that was also closely associated with Protestants in its heyday in the 1920s, many of its 4 million members then were also anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic.
Read more at KKK Leader: 'We're a Christian Organization;' Claims the Klan Is Not a Hate Group

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:59 pm

A dog can claim to be an elephant, but doesn't make it so.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:02 pm

LarsMac;1489590 wrote: Somehow, I doubt that getting rid of all the Muslims will solve any real problems we may have on this planet.

And since both Christians and Muslims basically worship the same God, even if they give him different names, asking him to takes sides in all this BS might result in far less desirable consequences than any of them could imagine.

You might say they both worship the same god sadly most of them would not which is one of the reasons muslims are busy slaughtering christians and raping their women in the middle east.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:07 pm

gmc;1489605 wrote: You might say they both worship the same god sadly most of them would not which is one of the reasons muslims are busy slaughtering christians and raping their women in the middle east.

The Muslim recognize the same God, but believe that the "people of the Book" have abandoned their common god and only the followers of Muhammad are the true believers.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:22 pm

LarsMac;1489603 wrote: A dog can claim to be an elephant, but doesn't make it so.Calling oneself a Christian is not adequate proof of Christianity. Disrobing and attending church on Sunday isn't proof enough?

Of course dogs can't claim to be anything, we humans assign those labels.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:24 pm

Ahso!;1489613 wrote: Calling oneself a Christian is not adequate proof of Christianity. Disrobing and attending church on Sunday isn't proof enough?

Of course dogs can't claim to be anything, we humans assign those labels.

Nope. Going to church no more makes one a Christian than hanging out at a garage makes one an automobile.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:25 pm

gmc;1489605 wrote: You might say they both worship the same god sadly most of them would not which is one of the reasons muslims are busy slaughtering christians and raping their women in the middle east.

Not to mention European women! There are some shocking utube vids about Swedish women being raped by 'migrants', many of whom are followers of Islam, unfortunately.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:27 pm

Amazing how utube has become an authority, of late.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:32 pm

LarsMac;1489614 wrote: Nope. Going to church no more makes one a Christian than hanging out at a garage makes one an automobile.That's just your personal view. Ask the churchgoers themselves, they'll tell you they are indeed christian. Who are you to dispute how one labels oneself? When did you become the arbiter of who is and isn't Christian? According to most Christians, only God would be that arbiter. That appears to be a mighty high opinion of oneself.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:32 pm

LarsMac;1489616 wrote: Amazing how utube has become an authority, of late.

It is indeed. Maybe it's because ordinary folk aren't constrained by an editor's approval. Governments tend to 'vet' news articles for public consumption, and the proof of this is the simple fact that many of these shocking vids NEVER make the mainstream news. No government likes to be embarrassed by it's own failings. Not good for winning elections.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:35 pm

Ahso!;1489617 wrote: That's just your personal view. Ask the churchgoers themselves, they'll tell you they are indeed christian. Who are you to dispute how one labels oneself? When did you become the arbiter of who is and isn't Christian? According to most Christians, only God would be that arbiter. that appears to be a mighty high opinion of oneself.

I can see both points here. I have been to church to attend weddings and funerals. I've even sung hymns. Yet I'm a pagan, not a Christian.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:37 pm

Smaug;1489619 wrote: I can see both points here. I have been to church to attend weddings and funerals. I've even sung hymns. Yet I'm a pagan, not a Christian.I said "churchgoers" suggesting regular members of a church.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:43 pm

Ahso!;1489620 wrote: I said "churchgoers" suggesting regular members of a church.

Maybe it would have been clearer if you'd said 'regular churchgoers'? I've been quite a few times for a variety of events....

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:57 pm

This re-branding by the French Government seems to have ruffled their feathers Daesh

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:04 pm

LarsMac;1489607 wrote: The Muslim recognize the same God, but believe that the "people of the Book" have abandoned their common god and only the followers of Muhammad are the true believers.

You rather make my pioint for me. If they have abandoned the common god then they are not worshipping the same one but a different one because if it was the same god they could not therefore have abandoned him therefore they follow a false god.

Sunni and Shia can't agree with each other on how to worship the same god any more than catholic and protestants do. They all slaughter (have done and probably will do in the future) each other with great rejoicing that they are making a kingdon of heaven here on earth.

Logic and religion do not go together and common sense goes out the window when a holy book comes in the door.

Not so long ago the US and Uk was backing isis as one of the groups opposed to Bashar al-Assad then they crossed in to iraq and became isis. Quite frankly I don't think any of our leaders have a clue what to do. Stopping the money flow would be my first action but that might annoy the saudis.

posted by smaug

I can see both points here. I have been to church to attend weddings and funerals. I've even sung hymns. Yet I'm a pagan, not a Christian

I wouldn't worry about it most of the rituals were pinched from the pagans anyway. You do know none of the pagan gods exist don't you?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:22 pm

You do know none of the pagan gods exist don't you? If I thought that, I wouldn't be a pagan....:wah:

I love it when people make sweeping statements about which they know very little. If these Gods don't exist, how come so many religions have 'pagan DNA'? If you want to believe as you do, I have no problems with that. I happen to believe otherwise. You're correct about many religious festivals and rituals, though!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:46 pm

Smaug;1489632 wrote: You do know none of the pagan gods exist don't you?

If these Gods don't exist, how come so many religions have 'pagan DNA'?What's this?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:50 pm

Ahso!;1489633 wrote: What's this?

I was asked a question (by GMC), so I answered it (not being an ignorant git). Read back through the post. I hope you're not spoiling for a fight Ahso, 'cos you'll get one if you are.....

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:52 pm

Smaug;1489635 wrote: I was asked a question, so I answered it (not being an ignorant git). Read back through the post. I hope you're not spoiling for a fight Ahso, 'cos you'll get one if you are.....WTF does it mean, the DNA reference?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:54 pm

Bruv;1489629 wrote: This re-branding by the French Government seems to have ruffled their feathers Daesh

Maybe we should call them daesh, rather than giving them the status of state.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Ahso!;1489637 wrote: WTF does it mean, the DNA reference?

WTF? Can you actually articulate a question without using abbreviated profanities? My meaning was that many religions have taken many of the pagan rituals, and in some cases, beliefs (such as the resurrection after death;-Jesus), and festivals (Yule/Christmas), May Day etc, hence 'pagan DNA. There are quite a few others.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:03 pm

Ahso!;1489633 wrote: What's this?

Actually it was me winding up smaug to see if i could provoke an argument, one which would be completely off topic so perhaps another time in another thread we can argue about it.

posted by ahso

WTF does it mean, the DNA reference?

It was in respomnse to my commnt that most of the rituals in the christian church and in particular the catholic church were pinched from roman pagan religion.

I love it when people make sweeping statements about which they know very little. If these Gods don't exist, how come so many religions have 'pagan DNA'? If you want to believe as you do, I have no problems with that. I happen to believe otherwise. You're correct about many religious festivals and rituals, though!

It would be a mistake on your part to think I make sweeping statements about something about which I know very little. If these Gods don't exist, how come so many religions have 'pagan DNA'?

:-5:-5Oh please I think you're too intelligent to actually believe what you have just written.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:24 pm

Smaug;1489639 wrote: WTF? Can you actually articulate a question without using abbreviated profanities? My meaning was that many religions have taken many of the pagan rituals, and in some cases, beliefs (such as the resurrection after death;-Jesus), and festivals (Yule/Christmas), May Day etc, hence 'pagan DNA. There are quite a few others.LMMFAO! Hi Oscar!

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:24 pm

It would be a mistake on your part to think I make sweeping statements about something about which I know very little.

Touche! ( I would put the accent over the 'E', but I don't know the keyboard command!):wah:

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:30 pm

Ahso!;1489646 wrote: LMMFAO! Hi Oscar!

Can you actually articulate a question without using abbreviated profanities? Apparently not. It's amazing how many people mistake profanity for eloquence. Rather sad. Still, much of the world IS pretty illiterate......I would say your avatar is appropriate, though!( Even if your site name is missing LE after Ahso).

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:56 pm

Ahso!;1489617 wrote: That's just your personal view.
Well, of course it is. I seem to recall, a long time ago, stating that anything I post here is based upon my personal view unless I state otherwise.

So, your point is...?

Ahso!;1489617 wrote: Ask the churchgoers themselves, they'll tell you they are indeed christian. Who are you to dispute how one labels oneself? When did you become the arbiter of who is and isn't Christian? According to most Christians, only God would be that arbiter.
You are correct in that God is the final Arbiter on the subject.

My claim to be a Christian is no more reliable than that of anyone else. And in fact, there are plenty who have told me that I am not one.

I can just as well claim to be a Buddhist, or a Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Pagan, or Pastafarian. Saying it don't make it so. Jesus said, "You will know them by their works."

Ahso!;1489617 wrote: That appears to be a mighty high opinion of oneself. Which opinion is that?

I'm just another bozo on this bus.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:37 pm

Smaug;1489652 wrote: Can you actually articulate a question without using abbreviated profanities? Apparently not. It's amazing how many people mistake profanity for eloquence. Rather sad. Still, much of the world IS pretty illiterate......I would say your avatar is appropriate, though!( Even if your site name is missing LE after Ahso).Oh Oscar! You'll never change. Which one is Peter? I'd also ask which one Snooze is but she's so above this.