Yet another US shooting tragedy

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:26 am

Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - at least 20 dead

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:51 am

It sounds a very protracted affair - "Chief Mina said a decision was taken at 05:00 to send a police assault team into the club after receiving texts and phone calls from some of the hostages."

With casualties exceeding 70 nobody seems yet to have indicated when most of them were shot - when the gunman arrived, or when the assault team entered. I doubt "Our SWAT officers exchanged gunfire with the suspect, the suspect is dead" is an adequate summary.

And does An FBI spokesman [...] said the attacker appeared to "have leanings towards" radical Islamist ideology mean the chap has already been identified as a Muslim? It's very strange wording.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:40 am

spot;1496901 wrote: It's very strange wording.

Paranoiac even ?

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:43 am

It uses English vocabulary but it scarcely qualifies as a sincere effort to communicate.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:03 am

Bruv;1496905 wrote: Paranoiac even ?

FBI wouldn't say it unless they already knew.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:20 am

He's American born, Afghan parents, trained in weapons, haven't said where yet. This is very good for Trump, & he knows it.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:43 am

I'm insufficiently aware of US societal norms to know the answer to this: Is an Orlando gay club likely to have a higher or a lower proportion of concealed-carry stand-your-ground NRA advocates with their weaponry than the population of Florida in general? I'm just wondering whether the club may have been seen as a soft target to rack up a high score, the way school and college campuses are.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:58 am

Soft target.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:36 am

Three hours after the initial shooting armed squads went in blasting, doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:04 am

"Today we're dealing with something that we never imagined and is unimaginable", says the Mayor of Orlando.

If you never imagined an event like this and think it's unimaginable, Mr Dyer, you shouldn't have applied to become Mayor.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:30 am

I'm not surprised this keeps happening in America. Far too lax with their gun laws. Guns seem to be a fashion accessory over there, and life seems to be cheap.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:17 am

News is telling us of 50 deaths, I wonder how many were friendly fire?

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:25 am

I expect we'll find out next year after whatever passes for an inquest in the US.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:39 pm

spot;1496910 wrote: I'm insufficiently aware of US societal norms to know the answer to this: Is an Orlando gay club likely to have a higher or a lower proportion of concealed-carry stand-your-ground NRA advocates with their weaponry than the population of Florida in general? I'm just wondering whether the club may have been seen as a soft target to rack up a high score, the way school and college campuses are.

I assume alcohol is served at that club.

(12)(a)ƒA license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:

12.ƒAny portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on

Even so, I wonder if it were a place where weapons are allowed it would surprise me that many people there would be armed. Not everybody chooses to carry a gun. Also among the few armed how many would be in a position to do anything?

I couldn't blame anybody deciding to get the hell out of there. The shooter had a semiautomatic rifle. Not something I would want to face down.

My experience is most people carry not to be a hero but as a last choice for self-defense.

It would take somebody who just happens to be in the right place to even think of stopping that guy.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:53 pm

tude dog;1496941 wrote: The shooter had a semiautomatic rifle

I would presume a night club would have door staff taking payment or keeping drunks out.

So how big is a semi automatic rifle ?

Or did the fellow blast his way into the place ?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:49 pm

Bruv;1496942 wrote: I would presume a night club would have door staff taking payment or keeping drunks out.

So how big is a semi automatic rifle ?

Or did the fellow blast his way into the place ?

I heard he had an AR15. Best you look up for specific information you want. Don't know or care about night club security or how he managed to bring the weapon in.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:04 pm

AnneBoleyn;1496909 wrote: He's American born, Afghan parents, trained in weapons, haven't said where yet. This is very good for Trump, & he knows it.I'm not sure about that. The shooter was, as you said, an American-born citizen.

Trump is pro-gun, thinks virtually everybody should have one (or more). It's probably better for Hillary, who has decried loose gun laws for a long time.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:19 pm

Mark Aspam;1496945 wrote: I'm not sure about that. The shooter was, as you said, an American-born citizen.

Trump is pro-gun, thinks virtually everybody should have one (or more).

I never heard Trump say anything like that. He spoke about the right to keep and bear arms, not really about if someone should own one, much less more than one.

Mark Aspam;1496945 wrote: It's probably better for Hillary, who has decried loose gun laws for a long time.

I don't really pay that much attention to Hillary's rantings about our natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

I don't know what loose gun laws mean, but I do know it is a progressive wet dream to take our guns.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:47 pm

tude dog;1496946 wrote: I don't know what loose gun laws mean, but I do know it is a progressive wet dream to take our guns.It means that idiots like the dude who just murdered 50 people shouldn't be able to do so.

There may even be people like that on this forum. If there are, they need to understand that the purpose of the second amendment to the US Constitution is to PREVENT such atrocities by means of a WELL-REGULATED MILITIA. Maybe you should read it for yourself.

The rest of the civilized world thinks that we are INSANE. I lived in Germany for eight years. I never knew of anybody there having a gun or wishing to have a gun or needing a gun for any purpose apart from hunting.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:48 pm

Mark Aspam;1496947 wrote: It means that idiots like the dude who just murdered 50 people shouldn't be able to do so.

I have yet to hear that magical solution which at the same time respects the rights of citizens.

Mark Aspam;1496947 wrote: There may even be people like that on this forum. If there are, they need to understand that the purpose of the second amendment to the US Constitution is to PREVENT such atrocities by means of a WELL-REGULATED MILITIA. Maybe you should read it for yourself.
Perhaps you could read McDonald v. City of Chicago

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES FULL TEXT OF DECISION

Mark Aspam;1496947 wrote: The rest of the civilized world thinks that we are INSANE. I lived in Germany for eight years. I never knew of anybody there having a gun or wishing to have a gun or needing a gun for any purpose apart from hunting.

What the rest of the world thinks is irrelevant.

California comes closest to the progressive ideal, but yet SAN BERNARDINO SHOOTING

What does the rest of the wourld rate France?

November 2015 Paris attacks

On and on I could go.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:05 pm

Talking about what doesn't work will not fix the problem of finding a solution that works. It might save a little time, since we know where some of the rat holes are, but we still have a problem looking for a solution.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:15 am

Mark Aspam;1496947 wrote: It means that idiots like the dude who just murdered 50 people shouldn't be able to do so.The trouble is, the people to whom you refer are criminals.

In the UK this month an antisocial gentleman was jailed for importing twenty assault rifles and a ton of ammunition on a private leisure boat from Holland with the intention of selling them illegally to British psychotics for a profit. The dude who just murdered 50 people will always be able to do so either in the US or the UK.

I think there's no connection at all between criminals having access to handguns, assault rifles, GPMGs or bazookas and the legality of firearms in the hands of unconvicted sane adult citizens. There may be a degree more ease of access if there's a legal civil market but it's a minor issue.

There is an issue but it's not to do with these high-score or politically motivated mass killers, it's to do with housebreakers and robbers. If their victim is potentially armed then the housebreaker or robber is damn well going to be armed too, it stands to reason. In the UK practically no housebreaker or robber carries a firearm, and that's the difference between the US and UK. There seems no possible way of bringing US criminal practice into line with our more civilized thieving ways.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:32 am

One can only hope there exists no photo of the killer's father meeting Hillary Clinton, he's one seriously self-deluded fellow. Here's an open letter he addressed to John Kerry in April on his Facebook page:Provisional Government of Afghanistan -Seddique Mateen shared a Page.

19 April ·

Dear Mr Kerry,

We are very happy to see that America is helping Afghanistan. Special thanks for President Obama, but the Afghan people been through war for a very long time specially the Russian invasions, then Pakistan invasions, through the Taliban and creation of terrorists camps by Pakistan. They recycled the terrorists against Afghans And American especially 9/11and the current ISIS creations inside Afghanistan, creating danger and double facing to American to cheat again the American to get money. I think the mother of all terrorist creations are I.S.I. Pakistan. In the the whole world .U. S and the Congress of U.S. should admit that they hold Pakistan Army and I.S.i Pakistan responsible for killings of American troops and Afghan people. Instead 378 tanks and 78 war plane were given to Pakistan Army ,those should been giving to the Afghan Army because Pakistan army and Taliban the I.S.I Pakistan 24/7 invading Afghanistan territory. Mr Kerry, imagine that Pakistan was not created by trouble maker British out of Afghan and India's land, we Afghan would have been in excellent shape. The same thing with the creation of Unity Government of Afghanistan I.S.I Pakistan wants to influence big time, Pakistan army keeps taking our land and nobody say anything. Pakistan I.S.I. lobbyists in Congress the money that Pakistan gets spends on the Congress to get more money and get away with American soldiers and Afghan soldiers murder .

I SEDDIQUE MATEEN the Head of the Provisional Government of Afghanistan, have few suggestions:

1-The unity Government is not favored by the people of Afghanistan because they don't have jobs and they are hungry they want the provisional government of Afghanistan .

2- The unity Government has no capability to resolve the Afghanistan problem .

3- President Obama resolved U.S. problems, I want to resolve Afghanistan's problem.

4-As a responsible person for Afghanistan I would like to join (Afghanistan) the NATO, be a member of NATO .I doubt announcing yesterday that "God will punish those involved in homosexuality" was particularly tactful either.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:26 am

There are essentially 2 questions that explains it all.

1. Which country is most known internationally for its fanatical protection of the right for every citizen to bear arms?

2. Which country has the highest level of gun crime & mass homicide in the world?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:26 am

tude dog;1496946 wrote: ...........about our natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

...................... but I do know it is a progressive wet dream to take our guns.

....................What the rest of the world thinks is irrelevant.

The only comment worthy of such comments............

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:40 am

FourPart;1496954 wrote: 2. Which country has the highest level of gun crime & mass homicide in the world?South Africa.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:59 am

The BBC has re-labelled part of their model of the Florida Pulse building - the original "Rear Entrance" arrow now says "Back Exit". The BBC is a model of restrained sensitive reporting, as ever.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:24 am

spot;1496960 wrote: The BBC has re-labelled part of their model of the Florida Pulse building - the original "Rear Entrance" arrow now says "Back Exit". The BBC is a model of restrained sensitive reporting, as ever.

The problem is that no matter what wording they use, it's still likely to have the same double entendre.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:36 am

Mark Aspam;1496945 wrote: I'm not sure about that. The shooter was, as you said, an American-born citizen.

Trump is pro-gun, thinks virtually everybody should have one (or more). It's probably better for Hillary, who has decried loose gun laws for a long time.

Are you kidding me? Most white Americans will just see MUSLIM and if his parents would have been denied entry this would NOT have happened. The NRA has won every time & whenever these events occur gun & assault rifle sales skyrocket! Don't you understand the country you live in, Mark, or do you live on wishes, hopes & dreams?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:25 am

Seems to have more to do with homophobia than anything else.

There seem to be plenty of christians calling for gays to be killed as well, wonder if they are upset a muslim did it first.

couldn't resist, OK maybe they wouldn't actually do it but I bwt you someone somewhere is on a forum saying the gays were asking for it.

posted by tude dog

What the rest of the world thinks is irrelevant.

Actually I'd agree with you it's a peculiarly american problem it's going to take americans to sort it out.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:05 am

gmc;1496964 wrote:

Actually I'd agree with you it's a peculiarly american problem it's going to take americans to sort it out.

Don't think so

Turkish newspaper mocks Orlando shooting that killed 50 with homophobic headline - Mirror Online

Some people glory in it

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Snowfire;1496965 wrote: Don't think so

Turkish newspaper mocks Orlando shooting that killed 50 with homophobic headline - Mirror Online

Some people glory in it

I was referrimg to the gun ownership issue as was tude dog.

but I bet you someone somewhere is on a forum saying the gays were asking for it.

Or indeed in newspapers. I haven't looked but I suspect it wouldn't take very much searching to find lots of people that reckon the gay people were asking for it and provoked the wrath of the righteous.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:03 pm

gmc;1496971 wrote: I haven't looked but I suspect it wouldn't take very much searching to find lots of people that reckon the gay people were asking for it and provoked the wrath of the righteous.

The Westboro Baptists come to mind. They'll be dancing in the aisles

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:49 pm

I think you do the Westboro Baptists an injustice, they were never violent. It would be charitable to think they were against worldly violence. Divine violence of earth-shattering proportions they would definitely cheer on from the sidelines, but shooting up a gay bar to make their point was never their way. Given the availability of firearms you could even say they showed their faith in what they saw as the Lord's justice through a laudable self-restraint. America could become nostalgic for the good old days of God Hates Fags placards where nobody hit anyone.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:25 pm

How can this be credited to Islamic radicalism ?

ISIS claiming he was one of their own, and the man himself being Muslim, mean nothing.

The chap was bi polar with a short fuse and history.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:43 pm

spot;1496976 wrote: I think you do the Westboro Baptists an injustice, they were never violent. It would be charitable to think they were against worldly violence. Divine violence of earth-shattering proportions they would definitely cheer on from the sidelines, but shooting up a gay bar to make their point was never their way. Given the availability of firearms you could even say they showed their faith in what they saw as the Lord's justice through a laudable self-restraint. America could become nostalgic for the good old days of God Hates Fags placards where nobody hit anyone.

Well if they really believe that God does actually hate fags, I'm sure the Baptists won't be shedding many tears from behind their placards. They rejoice in the deaths of other peoples sons. The self restraint doesn't apparently stretch to allowing mothers of dead soldiers to bury their sons with dignity (however we feel about the politics of war). The dead "fags" would be offered the same dignity, no doubt.

I can't help but show such people as little disservice as I can muster. What is an injustice is allowing a God of such hatred into their stone cold hearts, whether they be Westboro Baptists or Muslim extremist

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:46 pm

Bruv;1496977 wrote: How can this be credited to Islamic radicalism ?

ISIS claiming he was one of their own, and the man himself being Muslim, mean nothing.

The chap was bi polar with a short fuse and history.

Owen Jones has insisted that this was a hate crime against LGBT, rather than a Muslim fanatic attack

Owen Jones walks out of Sky News interview after hosts 'downplay' homophobia of Orlando club shooting | News | The Independent

He walked out in fury

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:07 am

I agree with him it was above all a hate crime against LGBT and I applaud him for walking out of the interview in disgust.

The Muslim-fanatic side-trimmings of the phone call the killer made may well have been intended by him to up the ante and mythologize the world headlines, but the one undeniable thing he did was murder gay clubbers.

Indeed, there are multiple reports today that the killer wasn't so much a puritanical Muslim as a dissatisfied gay-bar habitué.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:51 am

AnneBoleyn;1496962 wrote: 1. Are you kidding me? Most white Americans will just see MUSLIM and if his parents would have been denied entry this would NOT have happened.

2. The NRA has won every time & whenever these events occur gun & assault rifle sales skyrocket!

3. Don't you understand the country you live in, Mark, or do you live on wishes, hopes & dreams?1. No, I'm not, and I don't think that MOST Americans - of any color - see it that way.

2 and 3. Here you are correct, and I said at the gitgo that the rest of the civilized world thinks that we are insane.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 am

spot;1496950 wrote: The trouble is, the people to whom you refer are criminals Not always true. There are accidental shootings frequently.

Also, some of the shooters are just plain NUTS.

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:04 am

gmc;1496964 wrote: Seems to have more to do with homophobia than anything else. It's now been pretty well established that the shooter was gay or bisexual. Self-hatred owing to his religion?

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:08 am

OMG :yh_glasse OMG

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:28 am

flopstock;1496984 wrote: OMG :yh_glasse OMG

You blinked?

I had to check my zip when I saw your post.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:04 pm

Very interesting article, much of it (about baseball) right over my head.

HERE

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:31 pm

I bet you isis are praying that donald trump becomes president of the united states.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:37 pm

I can't imagine why. The Killer Queen would surely annoy residents in the Middle East more than an isolationist.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:04 pm

spot;1496985 wrote: You blinked?

I had to check my zip when I saw your post.

Sorry I hit post too quickly and went off to other work...

California pastor celebrates massacre at Orlando gay club - NY Daily News

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Pastor Roger Jimenez is eager for publicity perhaps.

That's Christianity for you.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:53 pm

gmc;1496987 wrote: I bet you isis are praying that donald trump becomes president of the united states.

I bet you are right.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:56 pm

Mark Aspam;1496981 wrote: 1. No, I'm not, and I don't think that MOST Americans - of any color - see it that way.

2 and 3. Here you are correct, and I said at the gitgo that the rest of the civilized world thinks that we are insane.

If you are admitting to being wrong on 2 & 3, then it follows you are wrong on 1.