Martin McGuinness

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:35 am

Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness has died aged 66

Very mixed feelings about this passing according to todays news.

The question is, Would Northern Ireland be were it is now, if it hadn't been for the IRA and McGuinniss involvement earlier ?

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:55 am

He and Gerry Adams were, as far as I'm aware, the ones who reached out to the British government to find a compromise and end up with no sectarian killings. Is that inaccurate?

What would you rather had happened? The struggle continued? The IRA unilaterally disbanded with Protestant supremacy retained in Northern Ireland? Or do you think equal rights already existed and the IRA was lying about discrimination.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:34 am

spot;1507661 wrote: He and Gerry Adams were, as far as I'm aware, the ones who reached out to the British government to find a compromise and end up with no sectarian killings. Is that inaccurate?

What would you rather had happened? The struggle continued? The IRA unilaterally disbanded with Protestant supremacy retained in Northern Ireland? Or do you think equal rights already existed and the IRA was lying about discrimination.

Thought it was me asking the question.

Probably the way I phrased it put you off.

Could the peace talks have even happened without IRA violence ? Were they a bargaining tool ?

He and Gerry Adams were famously high profile proponents of violence, before 'seeing the light'. All I am asking is if the violence was a means to an end ?

I don't know who 'reached out' first, but it needed a bold response.

My personal opinion......that might have been forthcoming later.....was all those involved including the knob head Blaire, took a courageous chance in even contemplating entering talks in the first place. That alone is worth praise to all involved.

The struggle continues still....as I understand it......peacefully. The aim of Republicans is to unite Ireland, and in time I think it will happen.....not in my lifetime.

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:01 pm

Bruv;1507663 wrote: He and Gerry Adams were famously high profile proponents of violence, before 'seeing the light'.

As was Nelson Mandela, if I recall. He too was concerned with the dismantling of systemic permanent institutional discrimination. The world, with the exception of white supremacists in South Africa, pretty much admires him for his struggle.

My reply was intended to lay out all three alternative answers to your question, I couldn't think of a fourth. The question marks were to ask which you'd have chosen, stood in their shoes. Unless, as I said, you think equal rights already existed in Ulster.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:30 pm

Bruv;1507663 wrote: Thought it was me asking the question.

Probably the way I phrased it put you off.

Could the peace talks have even happened without IRA violence ? Were they a bargaining tool ?

He and Gerry Adams were famously high profile proponents of violence, before 'seeing the light'. All I am asking is if the violence was a means to an end ?

I don't know who 'reached out' first, but it needed a bold response.

My personal opinion......that might have been forthcoming later.....was all those involved including the knob head Blaire, took a courageous chance in even contemplating entering talks in the first place. That alone is worth praise to all involved.

The struggle continues still....as I understand it......peacefully. The aim of Republicans is to unite Ireland, and in time I think it will happen.....not in my lifetime.

You might be surprised, it could be sooner than you think :-

The election saw an end to the unionist majority at Stormont, with Sinn Féin now holding just one seat fewer than the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP).

Michelle O'Neill calls for 'urgent' referendum on Irish unity - BBC News

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:10 pm

Was the driving force behind the IRA civil rights, or the reunification of Ireland ?

Discrimination was a rallying point to unite behind, I think it must have been a hangover from early British rule, and shameful on our part that it wasn't sorted out long ago.

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:52 pm

Bruv;1507666 wrote: Was the driving force behind the IRA civil rights, or the reunification of Ireland ?
The driving force behind the IRA was the reunification of Ireland. The Troubles was a consequence of a refusal by the British government to end Protestant discrimination in Ulster against the Roman Catholic minority. The only common ground between those topics is the 1923 partition arrangement insisted upon by an intransigent extremist Orangeman called Edward Carson and his armed bully-boy followers, which created an artificial separate political entity in the one small area of Ireland that had a Protestant majority.

Carson campaigned against Home Rule. He spoke against the Bill in the House of Commons and organised rallies in Ireland promoting a provisional government for "the Protestant province of Ulster" to be ready, should a third Home Rule Bill come into law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Carson

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:45 pm

The bully boy orangemen haven't gone away. I just hope they keep out of the scottish refrendum debate and any debate in ireland about unification is a peaceful one.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:52 pm

Isn't it ironic that Martin McGuinness, rightly or wrongly, is being hailed as a perpetrator of Peace, after moving from the Terrorist approach, when Jeremy Corbyn who got them talking to each other in the first place in the pursuit of negotiating a Peace is derided by his opponents as allying himself with terrorists.

Post by **spot** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:16 pm

FourPart;1507811 wrote: when Jeremy Corbyn who got them talking to each other in the first place in the pursuit of negotiating a Peace

I wonder whether you could say what year you're referring to, or any reference online to the event you have in mind. I don't think it has a leg to stand on. It's an extraordinary claim, for which I have never heard any evidence at all.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:25 pm

This might elucidate things

The idea that Jeremy Corbyn laid the foundations for peace in Northern Ireland is total fantasy « Labour Uncut

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:08 pm

By changing course as he did - and taking pretty much the whole of the Provisional IRA with him - he went from major villain to something of a hero of mine. To change not only yourself but the course of history...wow.

Please god the Peace Process sticks.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:09 pm

Everyone seems to forget that Nelson Mandela followed a similar path, from Terrorist to Peacemaker.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:01 pm

Well, the extent of Mandela's crimes apart from being anti-apartheid seem to have been the blowing up of an electricity substation, for which he was convicted and sentenced. McGuinness was heavily involved in all IRA activity for what? 20 years? I grant that the principle is the same, but there's gallons more blood on McGuinness' hands.

Post by **spot** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:27 pm

You're being unduly kind. Mandela was a founding member of the armed wing of the African National Congress which bombed soft targets with consequent deaths.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:37 pm

Was he? Ok, fair enough. Hadn't heard that.

Do you happen to know a good biography of Mandela? Warts and all I mean, not a hagiography or a demonisation?

Post by **spot** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm

- I'm not sure whose shelf my copy is on at the moment though. If you get it second hand, check it's the 2010 edition.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:41 pm

Thanks.