God can do no wrong because something than cannot do any wrong - or right for that matter.
There are, as you say, lots of writings on the matter of Jesus, but NONE of them come from any form of official documentation. They are ALL stories passed down the line by word of mouth. Then there are the ones which are ascribed to being about Jesus, when there is actually no evidence to back any of this up. Tacitus, which was originally hailed as being the only evidence for his existence, was proven, usin spectography, to be be a fake that had been deliberately edited so as to change its meaning to say what they wanted it to say. There are absolutely NO Roman records to affirm his existence - if there werew don't you think the Church would be waving them in everyone's faces? There is NO record of a supposed census (which makes no logical sense either, given the supposed reason for the census in the first place). Popping a few characters who were KNOWN to exist during that particular era into the book doesn't class as evidence that a fictional character existed. After all, Sherlock Holmes had frequent meetings with Queen Victoria, and he also revealed Jack the Ripper to be one of the Princes. Now, we have evidence that Queen Victoria, Jack the Ripper & the Princes existed, therefore that has to be absolute proof that Sherlock Holmes existed also. After all, there are many narratives that support this. Of course this is fiction, but it is no different from your citing your usual stories about having found a tomb believed to be that of a priest who supposedly slapped a person whose existence has never been proven in the first place & using this as evidence of his existence. Don't you get how ridiculous that whole notion is?
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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xfrodobagginsx
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Fuzzy;1509034 wrote: Jesus died on the cross so preacher Joyce Meyer could buy a $5 million private jet.
You obviously didn't read what St. Peter said to the person who tried to offer him money in exchange for salvation. Acts 8: 20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
You obviously didn't read what St. Peter said to the person who tried to offer him money in exchange for salvation. Acts 8: 20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Humanity would be 1500 years ahead had the church not held science back by burning our best minds at the stake.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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xfrodobagginsx
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Fuzzy;1509049 wrote: Humanity would be 1500 years ahead had the church not held science back by burning our best minds at the stake.
It's interesting that you should say that given the fact that the Christians are the ones who invented the modern education system and the scientific method in the first place. It's the evolutionists who aren't following it.
It's interesting that you should say that given the fact that the Christians are the ones who invented the modern education system and the scientific method in the first place. It's the evolutionists who aren't following it.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
In the entire first Christian Century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religious scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription and is never found in a single piece of private correspondence.
Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies.
Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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xfrodobagginsx
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die
FourPart;1509038 wrote: God can do no wrong because something than cannot do any wrong - or right for that matter.
There are, as you say, lots of writings on the matter of Jesus, but NONE of them come from any form of official documentation.
What do you call these?
Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
TACITUS(55-117) A.D.Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.
PLINY THE YOUNGER: Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.
BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account¦.You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?¦After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men¦The wise king¦Lived on in the teachings he enacted.
THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles. This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.Africanus, Chronography, 18:1
SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]. Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean, referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“¦nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me¦We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching¦He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.
Carey, “Aristides, 68.
JUSTIN MARTYR(106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew
HEGESIPPUS]: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs. Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
ustin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70
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Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
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The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession.
Pagan sources
The non-Christian sources for the historical truth of the Gospels are both few and polluted by hatred and prejudice. A number of reasons have been advanced for this condition of the pagan sources:
· The field of the Gospel history was remote Galilee;
· the Jews were noted as a superstitious race, if we believe Horace (Credat Judoeus Apella, I, Sat., v, 100);
· the God of the Jews was unknown and unintelligible to most pagans of that period;
· the Jews in whose midst Christianity had taken its origin were dispersed among, and hated by, all the pagan nations;
· the Christian religion itself was often confounded with one of the many sects that had sprung up in Judaism, and which could not excite the interest of the pagan spectator.
It is at least certain that neither Jews nor Gentiles suspected in the least the paramount importance of the religion, the rise of which they witnessed among them. These considerations will account for the rarity and the asperity with which Christian events are mentioned by pagan authors. But though Gentile writers do not give us any information about Christ and the early stages of Christianity which we do not possess in the Gospels, and though their statements are made with unconcealed hatred and contempt, still they unwittingly prove the historical value of the facts related by the Evangelists.
We need not delay over a writing entitled the "Acts of Pilate", which must have existed in the second century (Justin, "Apol"., I, 35), and must have been used in the pagan schools to warn boys against the belief of Christians (Eusebius, Church History I.9; Church History IX.5); nor need we inquire into the question whether there existed any authentic census tables of Quirinius.
Tacitus
We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the conflux of all the streams of wickedness and shamelessness; furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews, considering them as an especially abject Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of the Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv).
Suetonius
Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the Christians: "Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum superstitious novae et maleficae" (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the rights of the Christian Church.
Pliny the Younger
Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere).
Other pagan writers
The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians ("Philopseudes", nn. 13, 16; "De Morte Pereg"). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, Against Celsus IV.51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in Phlegon (Origen, Against Celsus II.14). Before the end of the second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (Contra Celsus, passim), testifies that at that time the facts related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more striking characteristics of His religion.
Jewish sources
Philo
Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some of the Apostles. Eusebius (Church History II.4) indeed preserves a legend that Philo had met St. Peter in Rome during his mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in Alexandria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends.
Josephus
The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his "Antiquities" which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "John called Baptist" by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also John's character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disapproves of the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against "James, brother of Jesus Who was called Christ." It is antecedently probable that a writer so well informed as Josephus, must have been well acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders of John the Baptist and the Apostle James; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in Josephus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this expectation:
About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.
A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each.
Those who regard the passage as spurious
First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following:
· Josephus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities;
· the above cited passage from Josephus is said to be unknown to Origen and the earlier patristic writers;
· its very place in the Josephan text is uncertain, since Eusebius (Church History II.6) must have found it before the notices concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them.
But the spuriousness of the disputed Josephan passage does not imply the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ. Josephus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. Paul's shipwreck as told in the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the later Jewish writings.
Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious additions
A second class of critics do not regard the whole of Josephus's testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two:
· Josephus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him as the Christ; hence part of our present Josephan text must be genuine, part must be interpolated.
· Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a Josephan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present reading; for, according to the great Alexandrian doctor, Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ("In Matth.", xiii, 55; Against Celsus I.47).
Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that Josephus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently, when he says, "This was the Christ", he does not necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of the Christian religion.
Those who consider it to be completely genuine
The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning Jesus, as it is found today in Josephus, is genuine. The main arguments for the genuineness of the Josephan passage are the following:
· First, all codices or manuscripts of Josephus's work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way.
· Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. Justin makes use of Josephus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded Josephus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and Justin could appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition.
· Third, Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl"., I, xi; cf. "Dem. Ev.", III, v) Sozomen (Church History I.1), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers.
· Fourth, the complete silence of Josephus as to Jesus would have been a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this latter contains no statement incompatible with its Josephan authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes the Josephan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity.
All this does not necessarily imply that Josephus regarded Jesus as the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian. A number of possible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing Christianity.
Other Jewish sources
The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, Against Celsus I.28 and I.32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath", xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century.
The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr. Toldoth", 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, Against Celsus II.48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin" fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op. cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, Against Celsus I.28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699 700; cf. "Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, Against Celsus II.55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.
Christian sources
Among the Christian sources of the life of Jesus we need hardly mention the so called Agrapha and Apocrypha. For whether the Agrapha contain Logia of Jesus, or refer to incidents in His life, they are either highly uncertain or present only variations of the Gospel story. The chief value of the Apocrypha consists in their showing the infinite superiority of the Inspired Writings by contrasting the coarse and erroneous productions of the human mind with the simple and sublime truths written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
Among the Sacred Books of the New Testament, it is especially the four Gospels and the four great Epistles of St. Paul that are of the highest importance for the construction of the life of Jesus.
The four great Pauline Epistles (Romans, Galatians, and First and Second Corinthinas) can hardly be overestimated by the student of Christ's life; they have at times been called the "fifth gospel"; their authenticity has never been assailed by serious critics; their testimony is also earlier than that of the Gospels, at least most of the Gospels; it is the more valuable because it is incidental and undesigned; it is the testimony of a highly intellectual and cultured writer, who had been the greatest enemy of Jesus, who writes within twenty-five years of the events which he relates. At the same time, these four great Epistles bear witness to all the most important facts in the life of Christ: His Davidic descent, His poverty, His Messiahship, His moral teaching, His preaching of the kingdom of God, His calling of the apostles, His miraculous power, His claims to be God, His betrayal, His institution of the Holy Eucharist, His passion, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, His repeated appearances (Romans 1:3-4; 5:11; 8:2-3; 8:32; 9:5; 15:8; Galatians 2:17; 3:13; 4:4; 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 13:4; etc.). However important the four great Epistles may be, the gospels are still more so. Not that any one of them offers a complete biography of Jesus, but they account for the origin of Christianity by the life of its Founder. Questions like the authenticity of the Gospels, the relation between the Synoptic Gospels, and the Fourth, the Synoptic problem, must be studied in the articles referring to these respective subjects.
About this page
APA citation. Maas, A. (1910). Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 6, 2014 from New Advent: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Early Historical Documents On Jesus Christ
MLA citation. Maas, Anthony. "Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 6 Dec. 2014 .
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Joseph P. Thomas. In Memory of Archbishop Mathew Kavukatt.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
Contact information. The editor of New Advent is Kevin Knight. My email address is webmaster at newadvent.org. Regrettably, I can't reply to every letter, but I greatly appreciate your feedback — especially notifications about typographical errors and inappropriate ads.
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They are ALL stories passed down the line by word of mouth.
They were written by the actual eyewitnesses.
Then there are the ones which are ascribed to being about Jesus, when there is actually no evidence to back any of this up.
Such as? If you are referring to the NT writings, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. The early Church used those writings and nearly the entire bible can be reconstructed from quotes of early church fathers.
Tacitus, which was originally hailed as being the only evidence for his existence, was proven, usin spectography, to be be a fake that had been deliberately edited so as to change its meaning to say what they wanted it to say. There are absolutely NO Roman records to affirm his existence - if there werew don't you think the Church would be waving them in everyone's faces?
I gave you a quote from him, but I don't need him to prove Christ's existence. There are plenty of other writings.
There is NO record of a supposed census (which makes no logical sense either, given the supposed reason for the census in the first place). Popping a few characters who were KNOWN to exist during that particular era into the book doesn't class as evidence that a fictional character existed. After all, Sherlock Holmes had frequent meetings with Queen Victoria, and he also revealed Jack the Ripper to be one of the Princes. Now, we have evidence that Queen Victoria, Jack the Ripper & the Princes existed, therefore that has to be absolute proof that Sherlock Holmes existed also. After all, there are many narratives that support this. Of course this is fiction, but it is no different from your citing your usual stories about having found a tomb believed to be that of a priest who supposedly slapped a person whose existence has never been proven in the first place & using this as evidence of his existence. Don't you get how ridiculous that whole notion is?
I think what is ridiculous is that you try to write off overwhelming evidence of Christ's existence. Even if you don't believe one or two of them, you can't write off all of them.
My response is on bold above.
There are, as you say, lots of writings on the matter of Jesus, but NONE of them come from any form of official documentation.
What do you call these?
Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
TACITUS(55-117) A.D.Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.
PLINY THE YOUNGER: Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.
BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account¦.You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?¦After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men¦The wise king¦Lived on in the teachings he enacted.
THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles. This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.Africanus, Chronography, 18:1
SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]. Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean, referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“¦nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me¦We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching¦He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.
Carey, “Aristides, 68.
JUSTIN MARTYR(106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew
HEGESIPPUS]: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs. Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
ustin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70
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Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
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The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession.
Pagan sources
The non-Christian sources for the historical truth of the Gospels are both few and polluted by hatred and prejudice. A number of reasons have been advanced for this condition of the pagan sources:
· The field of the Gospel history was remote Galilee;
· the Jews were noted as a superstitious race, if we believe Horace (Credat Judoeus Apella, I, Sat., v, 100);
· the God of the Jews was unknown and unintelligible to most pagans of that period;
· the Jews in whose midst Christianity had taken its origin were dispersed among, and hated by, all the pagan nations;
· the Christian religion itself was often confounded with one of the many sects that had sprung up in Judaism, and which could not excite the interest of the pagan spectator.
It is at least certain that neither Jews nor Gentiles suspected in the least the paramount importance of the religion, the rise of which they witnessed among them. These considerations will account for the rarity and the asperity with which Christian events are mentioned by pagan authors. But though Gentile writers do not give us any information about Christ and the early stages of Christianity which we do not possess in the Gospels, and though their statements are made with unconcealed hatred and contempt, still they unwittingly prove the historical value of the facts related by the Evangelists.
We need not delay over a writing entitled the "Acts of Pilate", which must have existed in the second century (Justin, "Apol"., I, 35), and must have been used in the pagan schools to warn boys against the belief of Christians (Eusebius, Church History I.9; Church History IX.5); nor need we inquire into the question whether there existed any authentic census tables of Quirinius.
Tacitus
We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the conflux of all the streams of wickedness and shamelessness; furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews, considering them as an especially abject Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of the Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv).
Suetonius
Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the Christians: "Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum superstitious novae et maleficae" (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the rights of the Christian Church.
Pliny the Younger
Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere).
Other pagan writers
The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians ("Philopseudes", nn. 13, 16; "De Morte Pereg"). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, Against Celsus IV.51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in Phlegon (Origen, Against Celsus II.14). Before the end of the second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (Contra Celsus, passim), testifies that at that time the facts related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more striking characteristics of His religion.
Jewish sources
Philo
Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some of the Apostles. Eusebius (Church History II.4) indeed preserves a legend that Philo had met St. Peter in Rome during his mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in Alexandria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends.
Josephus
The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his "Antiquities" which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "John called Baptist" by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also John's character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disapproves of the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against "James, brother of Jesus Who was called Christ." It is antecedently probable that a writer so well informed as Josephus, must have been well acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders of John the Baptist and the Apostle James; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in Josephus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this expectation:
About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.
A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each.
Those who regard the passage as spurious
First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following:
· Josephus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities;
· the above cited passage from Josephus is said to be unknown to Origen and the earlier patristic writers;
· its very place in the Josephan text is uncertain, since Eusebius (Church History II.6) must have found it before the notices concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them.
But the spuriousness of the disputed Josephan passage does not imply the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ. Josephus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. Paul's shipwreck as told in the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the later Jewish writings.
Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious additions
A second class of critics do not regard the whole of Josephus's testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two:
· Josephus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him as the Christ; hence part of our present Josephan text must be genuine, part must be interpolated.
· Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a Josephan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present reading; for, according to the great Alexandrian doctor, Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ("In Matth.", xiii, 55; Against Celsus I.47).
Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that Josephus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently, when he says, "This was the Christ", he does not necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of the Christian religion.
Those who consider it to be completely genuine
The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning Jesus, as it is found today in Josephus, is genuine. The main arguments for the genuineness of the Josephan passage are the following:
· First, all codices or manuscripts of Josephus's work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way.
· Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. Justin makes use of Josephus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded Josephus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and Justin could appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition.
· Third, Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl"., I, xi; cf. "Dem. Ev.", III, v) Sozomen (Church History I.1), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers.
· Fourth, the complete silence of Josephus as to Jesus would have been a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this latter contains no statement incompatible with its Josephan authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes the Josephan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity.
All this does not necessarily imply that Josephus regarded Jesus as the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian. A number of possible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing Christianity.
Other Jewish sources
The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, Against Celsus I.28 and I.32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath", xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century.
The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr. Toldoth", 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, Against Celsus II.48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin" fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op. cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, Against Celsus I.28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699 700; cf. "Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, Against Celsus II.55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.
Christian sources
Among the Christian sources of the life of Jesus we need hardly mention the so called Agrapha and Apocrypha. For whether the Agrapha contain Logia of Jesus, or refer to incidents in His life, they are either highly uncertain or present only variations of the Gospel story. The chief value of the Apocrypha consists in their showing the infinite superiority of the Inspired Writings by contrasting the coarse and erroneous productions of the human mind with the simple and sublime truths written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
Among the Sacred Books of the New Testament, it is especially the four Gospels and the four great Epistles of St. Paul that are of the highest importance for the construction of the life of Jesus.
The four great Pauline Epistles (Romans, Galatians, and First and Second Corinthinas) can hardly be overestimated by the student of Christ's life; they have at times been called the "fifth gospel"; their authenticity has never been assailed by serious critics; their testimony is also earlier than that of the Gospels, at least most of the Gospels; it is the more valuable because it is incidental and undesigned; it is the testimony of a highly intellectual and cultured writer, who had been the greatest enemy of Jesus, who writes within twenty-five years of the events which he relates. At the same time, these four great Epistles bear witness to all the most important facts in the life of Christ: His Davidic descent, His poverty, His Messiahship, His moral teaching, His preaching of the kingdom of God, His calling of the apostles, His miraculous power, His claims to be God, His betrayal, His institution of the Holy Eucharist, His passion, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, His repeated appearances (Romans 1:3-4; 5:11; 8:2-3; 8:32; 9:5; 15:8; Galatians 2:17; 3:13; 4:4; 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 13:4; etc.). However important the four great Epistles may be, the gospels are still more so. Not that any one of them offers a complete biography of Jesus, but they account for the origin of Christianity by the life of its Founder. Questions like the authenticity of the Gospels, the relation between the Synoptic Gospels, and the Fourth, the Synoptic problem, must be studied in the articles referring to these respective subjects.
About this page
APA citation. Maas, A. (1910). Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 6, 2014 from New Advent: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Early Historical Documents On Jesus Christ
MLA citation. Maas, Anthony. "Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 6 Dec. 2014 .
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Joseph P. Thomas. In Memory of Archbishop Mathew Kavukatt.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
Contact information. The editor of New Advent is Kevin Knight. My email address is webmaster at newadvent.org. Regrettably, I can't reply to every letter, but I greatly appreciate your feedback — especially notifications about typographical errors and inappropriate ads.
Copyright © 2012 by Kevin Knight. Dedicated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
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They are ALL stories passed down the line by word of mouth.
They were written by the actual eyewitnesses.
Then there are the ones which are ascribed to being about Jesus, when there is actually no evidence to back any of this up.
Such as? If you are referring to the NT writings, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. The early Church used those writings and nearly the entire bible can be reconstructed from quotes of early church fathers.
Tacitus, which was originally hailed as being the only evidence for his existence, was proven, usin spectography, to be be a fake that had been deliberately edited so as to change its meaning to say what they wanted it to say. There are absolutely NO Roman records to affirm his existence - if there werew don't you think the Church would be waving them in everyone's faces?
I gave you a quote from him, but I don't need him to prove Christ's existence. There are plenty of other writings.
There is NO record of a supposed census (which makes no logical sense either, given the supposed reason for the census in the first place). Popping a few characters who were KNOWN to exist during that particular era into the book doesn't class as evidence that a fictional character existed. After all, Sherlock Holmes had frequent meetings with Queen Victoria, and he also revealed Jack the Ripper to be one of the Princes. Now, we have evidence that Queen Victoria, Jack the Ripper & the Princes existed, therefore that has to be absolute proof that Sherlock Holmes existed also. After all, there are many narratives that support this. Of course this is fiction, but it is no different from your citing your usual stories about having found a tomb believed to be that of a priest who supposedly slapped a person whose existence has never been proven in the first place & using this as evidence of his existence. Don't you get how ridiculous that whole notion is?
I think what is ridiculous is that you try to write off overwhelming evidence of Christ's existence. Even if you don't believe one or two of them, you can't write off all of them.
My response is on bold above.
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xfrodobagginsx
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Fuzzy;1509058 wrote: In the entire first Christian Century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religious scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription and is never found in a single piece of private correspondence.
Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies.
False. I just posted many of them for you. I didn't post Josephus either who was a prominent Roman Historian. Also, the Biblical writings are eyewitness writings. Not to mention the Church writings, the Apochryphical writings and more. You are kidding yourself.
Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies.
False. I just posted many of them for you. I didn't post Josephus either who was a prominent Roman Historian. Also, the Biblical writings are eyewitness writings. Not to mention the Church writings, the Apochryphical writings and more. You are kidding yourself.
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xfrodobagginsx
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Foxes Book Of Martyrs:
Fox's Book of Martyrs
Fox's Book of Martyrs
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xfrodobagginsx
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Evidence to support life after death:
NDE Videos:
NDE Videos:
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xfrodobagginsx
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This one is for 90 Minutes in heaven with Don Piper:
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Hi folks. Back after ten weeks in Greece. I see we are still fighting the same b attle. One even mention Bart Ehrman. Interesting because Bart in his book "Did Jesus Exist" has a historians take on the subject. He firmly states that he believeds that Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Of course he iks not mentioned in any Roman records. They crucified thousands and he was just another "criminal" which they did not bother with mentioning.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
While away I reads a newly published book by National Geographic written by Jean-Pierre Isbouts. It is called "Archaeology of the Bible. He presents the latest thinking by many archaeologists on the topic. Published within the last year. There are some interesting issues a few of which are most interesting . For instance It is very doubtful that Abraham ever existed. It was a name included in the midrash. Moses was not a single character but a composit of many figures put under one nam e. There is no a shred of evidence that the Exodus never took place as written in the Bible.. The book also presents the historical Jesus as a real live human being. Another historicans point of view based on the historical method. Also read the book "A New History of Early Christianityd" by historican Charles Freeman. The fact is that early Christianity was many Christianities as different groups made different understandings of the meaning of Jesus. Very intereeesting holiday.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Sorry about any typos but until more eye surgery my vision is extremely limited. Hard to read my computer screen.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
I read an rather interesting book on Jesus, recently.
Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, but Reza Aslan.
It's worth the time, I think
Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, but Reza Aslan.
It's worth the time, I think
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
The idea of an afterlife is a Christian hope in the true sense of hope. It is my hope as a Christian but only time will tell. Once again it is the result of needing something security in a very insecure world.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
If there were a god, it would not be any god that humans have conceived. All human conceived gods have been murderous, jealous, spiteful, deceitful, hareful, egotistical, vengeful and genocidal. These are all characteristics of humans. We create god in our image. An all powerful, all knowing god would not be that petty. It would be benevolent.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ted;1509146 wrote: The idea of an afterlife is a Christian hope in the true sense of hope. It is my hope as a Christian but only time will tell. Once again it is the result of needing something security in a very insecure world.When does time stop for a person? You say only time will tell. Does that mean that one remains aware of time after death and the brain ceases to function? If so, how can this be? Surely, the afterlife is only a hope, which is an emotional response to fear, which is a function of the brain.
ETA: I don't really expect an answer from you as you never provide any rational explanation or clarification of your posts.
ETA: I don't really expect an answer from you as you never provide any rational explanation or clarification of your posts.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509142 wrote: I read an rather interesting book on Jesus, recently.
Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, but Reza Aslan.
It's worth the time, I thinkI've heard of this book and I've also read reviews on it. As I understand it, Asian assumes that the existence of a person named Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed. However, outside of the story itself and a few of notoriety who subscribe to it, there's no historical evidence that such an individual ever did in fact exist, which leaves us to determine that Asian it taking a fictional account of a person and attempting to present it as historical fact.
The name Jesus was a common enough name for us to know that people named Jesus did, in fact, exist, however, the one described in the Christian bible who supposedly walked on water, raised dead people and so on never did. Even if we allow for the dismissal of the most ridiculous parts of the story of this particular Jesus, the story itself is false at any rate. That qualifies any writings on the subject of assuming this particular Jesus as fact a falsehood or damnable lie.
Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, but Reza Aslan.
It's worth the time, I thinkI've heard of this book and I've also read reviews on it. As I understand it, Asian assumes that the existence of a person named Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed. However, outside of the story itself and a few of notoriety who subscribe to it, there's no historical evidence that such an individual ever did in fact exist, which leaves us to determine that Asian it taking a fictional account of a person and attempting to present it as historical fact.
The name Jesus was a common enough name for us to know that people named Jesus did, in fact, exist, however, the one described in the Christian bible who supposedly walked on water, raised dead people and so on never did. Even if we allow for the dismissal of the most ridiculous parts of the story of this particular Jesus, the story itself is false at any rate. That qualifies any writings on the subject of assuming this particular Jesus as fact a falsehood or damnable lie.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509158 wrote: I've heard of this book and I've also read reviews on it. As I understand it, Asian assumes that the existence of a person named Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed. However, outside of the story itself and a few of notoriety who subscribe to it, there's no historical evidence that such an individual ever did in fact exist, which leaves us to determine that Asian it taking a fictional account of a person and attempting to present it as historical fact.
The name Jesus was a common enough name for us to know that people named Jesus did, in fact, exist, however, the one described in the Christian bible who supposedly walked on water, raised dead people and so on never did. Even if we allow for the dismissal of the most ridiculous parts of the story of this particular Jesus, the story itself is false at any rate. That qualifies any writings on the subject of assuming this particular Jesus as fact a falsehood or damnable lie.
You should read the book, instead of basing your opinion on the words of someone else, who may, or may not have actually read the book. Just sayin'...
The name Jesus was a common enough name for us to know that people named Jesus did, in fact, exist, however, the one described in the Christian bible who supposedly walked on water, raised dead people and so on never did. Even if we allow for the dismissal of the most ridiculous parts of the story of this particular Jesus, the story itself is false at any rate. That qualifies any writings on the subject of assuming this particular Jesus as fact a falsehood or damnable lie.
You should read the book, instead of basing your opinion on the words of someone else, who may, or may not have actually read the book. Just sayin'...
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509159 wrote: You should read the book, instead of basing your opinion on the words of someone else, who may, or may not have actually read the book. Just sayin'...I appreciate that, however, just as I'd not read any account of the life of Kermit The Frog of Sesame Street, which is categorically the same as Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in the biblical storybook, I'm equally disinterested in wasting my time reading anything like this one. Whether one chooses to present the subject of the book as extreme or less so, the fact remains that the character never existed.
That said if I were to come across a post insisting that a false depiction of the character Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street as a real person and had had the implications and historical significance of Jesus of Nazareth involving all the damage done in life by that name, I might chime in on that one as well.
Just sayin'!
That said if I were to come across a post insisting that a false depiction of the character Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street as a real person and had had the implications and historical significance of Jesus of Nazareth involving all the damage done in life by that name, I might chime in on that one as well.
Just sayin'!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Lars I agree with you. Then I see the list of the evils committed by christianity which in some cases may hold true but is not uniuversally true. I also see a complete misunderstanding of the "Christian " bible. There is that evangelical fervor but no desire to really learn anything new except that which comes from the altar of Logic. I may be wrong but I accept that but I do not believe so since I really know how little the human race really understands.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ted;1509172 wrote: Lars I agree with you. Then I see the list of the evils committed by christianity which in some cases may hold true but is not uniuversally true. I also see a complete misunderstanding of the "Christian " bible. There is that evangelical fervor but no desire to really learn anything new except that which comes from the altar of Logic. I may be wrong but I accept that but I do not believe so since I really know how little the human race really understands.
Human beings have committed many evils over the history of the species. They will use anything they can to justify their behavior. To single out one philosophy to blame the evils of the world upon seems, at best, ludicrous.
My comments, however were simply revolving around one book that discusses the probability of any single real human being that may have been at the root of the story, and AHSO!'s judgement of said book without expending any energy whatsoever on the book or the author before passing judgement on the man's work.
The author is not a Christian apologist, or even a Christian, at all. His perspective is quite interesting, IMHO, but AHSO! joins the leagues of the Radical Right Christians in rejecting Aslan's work without even giving it a moment's consideration.
As I've pointed out before, even Atheists can be religious bigots.
Human beings have committed many evils over the history of the species. They will use anything they can to justify their behavior. To single out one philosophy to blame the evils of the world upon seems, at best, ludicrous.
My comments, however were simply revolving around one book that discusses the probability of any single real human being that may have been at the root of the story, and AHSO!'s judgement of said book without expending any energy whatsoever on the book or the author before passing judgement on the man's work.
The author is not a Christian apologist, or even a Christian, at all. His perspective is quite interesting, IMHO, but AHSO! joins the leagues of the Radical Right Christians in rejecting Aslan's work without even giving it a moment's consideration.
As I've pointed out before, even Atheists can be religious bigots.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac. Agreed. Ehrmann also gives the historians view in his book "Did Jesus Exist..
It seems to me that some folks don't want confused by the facts t. They have already made up their minds.. As we go along and get older we also realize how little we and the whole of the human race really knows.. Some of these folks have their own soap box. LOL
It seems to me that some folks don't want confused by the facts t. They have already made up their minds.. As we go along and get older we also realize how little we and the whole of the human race really knows.. Some of these folks have their own soap box. LOL
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509173 wrote: My comments, however were simply revolving around one book that discusses the probability of any single real human being that may have been at the root of the story, and AHSO!'s judgement of said book without expending any energy whatsoever on the book or the author before passing judgement on the man's work.Hum. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant to convey was that I'm not interested in any information about a person who never existed, and I used Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street as an example. If Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street had had a religion or philosophy named after him or attributed to him I'd still not be interested in any person's perspective on Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street.
LarsMac;1509173 wrote: The author is not a Christian apologist, or even a Christian, at all.I didn't say he was, what I meant to convey was that if Aslan speaks of Jesus of Nazareth as if JoN actually existed, his premise would be completely wrong, regardless. LarsMac;1509173 wrote: His perspective is quite interesting,The question is why would anyone be interested in the perspective of anyone about a person who never actually existed unless the discussion is within the context of the subject of a stroybook character? LarsMac;1509173 wrote: but AHSO! joins the leagues of the Radical Right Christians in rejecting Aslan's work without even giving it a moment's consideration.You brought the book up. Share with us what you got from it.
LarsMac;1509173 wrote: The author is not a Christian apologist, or even a Christian, at all.I didn't say he was, what I meant to convey was that if Aslan speaks of Jesus of Nazareth as if JoN actually existed, his premise would be completely wrong, regardless. LarsMac;1509173 wrote: His perspective is quite interesting,The question is why would anyone be interested in the perspective of anyone about a person who never actually existed unless the discussion is within the context of the subject of a stroybook character? LarsMac;1509173 wrote: but AHSO! joins the leagues of the Radical Right Christians in rejecting Aslan's work without even giving it a moment's consideration.You brought the book up. Share with us what you got from it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
It is so wonderful there are those who think they know it all.???????. Such wisdom!!!!!!
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ted;1509189 wrote: It is so wonderful there are those who think they know it all.???????. Such wisdom!!!!!!And this is your contribution to the discussion?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509179 wrote: Hum. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant to convey was that I'm not interested in any information about a person who never existed, and I used Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street as an example. If Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street had had a religion or philosophy named after him or attributed to him I'd still not be interested in any person's perspective on Kermit the Frog of Sesame Street.
I didn't say he was, what I meant to convey was that if Aslan speaks of Jesus of Nazareth as if JoN actually existed, his premise would be completely wrong, regardless. The question is why would anyone be interested in the perspective of anyone about a person who never actually existed unless the discussion is within the context of the subject of a stroybook character? You brought the book up. Share with us what you got from it.
Oh, fret not. You've made yourself quite clear.
I didn't say he was, what I meant to convey was that if Aslan speaks of Jesus of Nazareth as if JoN actually existed, his premise would be completely wrong, regardless. The question is why would anyone be interested in the perspective of anyone about a person who never actually existed unless the discussion is within the context of the subject of a stroybook character? You brought the book up. Share with us what you got from it.
Oh, fret not. You've made yourself quite clear.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509192 wrote: Oh, fret not. You've made yourself quite clear.
Let's try this again, LM.
If you have an interest in the character of JoN, that's fine, plenty of people do. I personally have none, except, perhaps, if you'd like to share what Aslan describes in his book maybe that will garner some interest. I personally don't get why people are interested in a make-believe person, but that's just me.
Is that better?
Let's try this again, LM.
If you have an interest in the character of JoN, that's fine, plenty of people do. I personally have none, except, perhaps, if you'd like to share what Aslan describes in his book maybe that will garner some interest. I personally don't get why people are interested in a make-believe person, but that's just me.
Is that better?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ted;1509137 wrote: Hi folks. Back after ten weeks in Greece. I see we are still fighting the same b attle. One even mention Bart Ehrman. Interesting because Bart in his book "Did Jesus Exist" has a historians take on the subject. He firmly states that he believeds that Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Of course he iks not mentioned in any Roman records. They crucified thousands and he was just another "criminal" which they did not bother with mentioning.
Why would you care what he thinks? He is right, Jesus Christ did in fact exist, but the fact that he didn't mention any Roman records doesn't mean that they don't exist. I've shown you the writings from the Roman Historians. The historical records clearly show that Jesus Christ did in fact exist. What was Christ's crime?
Why would you care what he thinks? He is right, Jesus Christ did in fact exist, but the fact that he didn't mention any Roman records doesn't mean that they don't exist. I've shown you the writings from the Roman Historians. The historical records clearly show that Jesus Christ did in fact exist. What was Christ's crime?
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Y'all do realize that 'Jesus of Nazareth' was not a name that the man known as Jesus was actually called when he was alive and walking the roads of Galilee and Judea. Right?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509211 wrote: Y'all do realize that 'Jesus of Nazareth' was not a name that the man known as Jesus was actually called when he was alive and walking the roads of Galilee and Judea. Right?Well then the person you're alluding to is not the person depicted in the Christian bible, he's a different person altogether.
There were a few Jesus' as well as others by different names walking the roads of Galilee and Judea around the alleged timeframe. Which one are you intent on focusing on?
There were a few Jesus' as well as others by different names walking the roads of Galilee and Judea around the alleged timeframe. Which one are you intent on focusing on?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509213 wrote: Well then the person you're alluding to is not the person depicted in the Christian bible, he's a different person altogether.
There were a few Jesus' as well as others by different names walking the roads of Galilee and Judea around the alleged timeframe. Which one are you intent on focusing on?
I'm saying that "Jesus" was not a name used in first century Palestine. (or, probably, much of anywhere in the First Century world. )
There were a few Jesus' as well as others by different names walking the roads of Galilee and Judea around the alleged timeframe. Which one are you intent on focusing on?
I'm saying that "Jesus" was not a name used in first century Palestine. (or, probably, much of anywhere in the First Century world. )
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509225 wrote: I'm saying that "Jesus" was not a name used in first century Palestine. (or, probably, much of anywhere in the First Century world. )
Okay, since you seem to want to leave us all in suspense, are you referring to the name Yeshua?
Okay, since you seem to want to leave us all in suspense, are you referring to the name Yeshua?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509227 wrote: Okay, since you seem to want to leave us all in suspense, are you referring to the name Yeshua?
I simply asked a question.
I simply asked a question.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509225 wrote: I'm saying that "Jesus" was not a name used in first century Palestine. (or, probably, much of anywhere in the First Century world. )This was a question?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509273 wrote: This was a question?
The question was further back. You must have missed it.
The question was further back. You must have missed it.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509211 wrote: Y'all do realize that 'Jesus of Nazareth' was not a name that the man known as Jesus was actually called when he was alive and walking the roads of Galilee and Judea. Right?
His name was Jesus and He was from Nazareth. So what point are you trying to make?
His name was Jesus and He was from Nazareth. So what point are you trying to make?
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Many scholars would disagree with Lars on that. Jesus or Yeshua was indeed a very common name and that is why the individual was designated by his town of origin Such as Mary of Magdela or Jesus of Nazareth. At any rate it is not an important issue.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ted;1509408 wrote: Many scholars would disagree with Lars on that. Jesus or Yeshua was indeed a very common name and that is why the individual was designated by his town of origin Such as Mary of Magdela or Jesus of Nazareth. At any rate it is not an important issue.
I would offer that an uneducated Hebrew man of Galilee would not likely go by the Roman name. The Latin version of his name would not likely have become popular until long after Paul arrived in Rome.
I would offer that an uneducated Hebrew man of Galilee would not likely go by the Roman name. The Latin version of his name would not likely have become popular until long after Paul arrived in Rome.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
What is the point of the discussion. What you trying to understand.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
xfrodobagginsx;1509421 wrote: What is the point of the discussion. What you trying to understand.
What is the point of any of your discussion.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?
What is the point of any of your discussion.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509424 wrote: What is the point of any of your discussion.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?
I'm talking about the whole Jesus of Nazareth point. He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?
I'm talking about the whole Jesus of Nazareth point. He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509424 wrote: What is the point of any of your discussion.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?I'd think the statement you made in another thread that LarsMac;1509364 wrote: As we determined earlier, reality is simply a collection of the results from random synaptic activity, and so, quite subjective. Mikiel's reality has as much validity as yours, from that perspective. (insert any name where "Mikiel's" sits) would preclude any argument or disagreement you might have with anyone on any subject at all, including this poster or Pahu or whomever else.
ETA: btw, it was a determination you alone made.
Why do so many of your type seem to believe more in the Bible than you do in God?I'd think the statement you made in another thread that LarsMac;1509364 wrote: As we determined earlier, reality is simply a collection of the results from random synaptic activity, and so, quite subjective. Mikiel's reality has as much validity as yours, from that perspective. (insert any name where "Mikiel's" sits) would preclude any argument or disagreement you might have with anyone on any subject at all, including this poster or Pahu or whomever else.
ETA: btw, it was a determination you alone made.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509434 wrote: I'd think the statement you made in another thread that (insert any name where "Mikiel's" sits) would preclude any argument or disagreement you might have with anyone on any subject at all, including this poster or Pahu or whomever else.
ETA: btw, it was a determination you alone made.
Well, I certainly don't take credit for that. I merely took off with what you had written earlier. Of course the whole thing circles back to that collective memory and knowledge where a group of individuals seem to share a particular collection of ideas and memories. And people tend to pool their opinions and beliefs into some sort of joint experience. From that experience they can then determine what is reality. But is their reality valid for others who have been a part of a different collective experience?
You can reject the experience of other people and stick to that reality which you have chosen, but that does not necessarily invalidate the others' perception of reality.
ETA: btw, it was a determination you alone made.
Well, I certainly don't take credit for that. I merely took off with what you had written earlier. Of course the whole thing circles back to that collective memory and knowledge where a group of individuals seem to share a particular collection of ideas and memories. And people tend to pool their opinions and beliefs into some sort of joint experience. From that experience they can then determine what is reality. But is their reality valid for others who have been a part of a different collective experience?
You can reject the experience of other people and stick to that reality which you have chosen, but that does not necessarily invalidate the others' perception of reality.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
LarsMac;1509439 wrote: Well, I certainly don't take credit for that.Even though you posted it? Oh, the irony! I didn't think you would own up to it, you hardly ever do and I expect why you insist on being as vague as you often are. LarsMac;1509439 wrote: I merely took off with what you had written earlier.Either you're admitting to trolling or not taking responsibility by saying that your error is my fault? I doubt you even understood what I had posted before that. LarsMac;1509439 wrote: Of course the whole thing circles back to that collective memory and knowledge where a group of individuals seem to share a particular collection of ideas and memories.That's called cult-thinking, and what I've been pointing out throughout these threads. Go on... LarsMac;1509439 wrote: And people tend to pool their opinions and beliefs into some sort of joint experience.My point exactly LarsMac;1509439 wrote: From that experience they can then determine what is reality.So you're a member as well.LarsMac;1509439 wrote: But is their reality valid for others who have been a part of a different collective experience?Reality isn't negotiable. The world isn't flat, and because any group of people want to insist it is does not change that fact.
LarsMac;1509439 wrote: You can reject the experience of other people and stick to that reality which you have chosen, but that does not necessarily invalidate the others' perception of reality.Insisting on cult-like groupthink as reality? Really?
Attached files
LarsMac;1509439 wrote: You can reject the experience of other people and stick to that reality which you have chosen, but that does not necessarily invalidate the others' perception of reality.Insisting on cult-like groupthink as reality? Really?
Attached files
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
xfrodobagginsx;1509496 wrote: proof of jesus
(historical proof of jesus) http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/h... ... aq.htm..bs..
(historical proof of jesus) http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/h... ... aq.htm..bs..
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509519 wrote: ..bs..
No. These writings are real historical writings. Check them out.
Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
No. These writings are real historical writings. Check them out.
Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
xfrodobagginsx;1509538 wrote: No. These writings are real historical writings. Check them out.
Early Secular Writings Regarding ChristAgain...bs...Try googeling each one and reading what you find outside of religiously biased sites. I know you won't, but I had to know I tried.
Early Secular Writings Regarding ChristAgain...bs...Try googeling each one and reading what you find outside of religiously biased sites. I know you won't, but I had to know I tried.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
xfrodobagginsx
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
Ahso!;1509543 wrote: Again...bs...Try googeling each one and reading what you find outside of religiously biased sites. I know you won't, but I had to know I tried.
Are you denying that these are actually historical writings? Wow. So then I guess when the evidence doesn't line up with what you want reality to be, deny, deny, deny.
Are you denying that these are actually historical writings? Wow. So then I guess when the evidence doesn't line up with what you want reality to be, deny, deny, deny.