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Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

Is Trump personally responsible for the aftermath of the decision to move the US Embassy ?

Dozens of Palestinians dead
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Post by tude dog »

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Is Trump personally responsible for the aftermath of the decision to move the US Embassy ?

Dozens of Palestinians dead


No doubt some will make that claim.
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Post by gmc »

Guns Don’t Kill People; People Kill People


The NRA must love this - if the palestinians had only had the sense to arm themselves they would be able to shoot back and the israelis would not be slaughtering unarmed civilians although in the perverted logic that seems to prevail in the mind of some americans a rock is just as deadly as an assault rifle. It's the palestinians fault for being silly enough to believe they have a right to protest and should know better then to provoke the the israelis.
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Post by spot »

Yesterday was the 70th anniversary of "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel", as Ben Gurion put it at the time. I expect the opening of the Jerusalem Embassy yesterday wasn't coincidental but there's more than just the opening behind the current violence.

Today is the 70th anniversary of the expiry of the British Mandate and the 70th anniversary of the start of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. I expect more people will be dead before this evening.

Calling what happened yesterday "self defence" is particularly nauseating, given the asymmetry involved.
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Post by gmc »

Funny how people once viewed as terrorists like ben gurion can go on to be statesmen and their actions conveniently forgotten when they are successful.

Crikey and I thought I was being facetious.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 51716.html

White House blames Hamas over 55 Palestinians shot dead by Israeli troops: 'This is a gruesome propaganda attempt'

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Post by magentaflame »

Pains me but just got rid of all my american friends off facebook..... i love these people but i just cant deal with their politics anymore

And yes it does pain me.

But think about it for a minute.....if i lived in england in the thirties woyld i want to be in wirh relatives in germany....apart from "you may wanna get out"?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1519219 wrote: Funny how people once viewed as terrorists like ben gurion can go on to be statesmen and their actions conveniently forgotten when they are successful.

Crikey and I thought I was being facetious.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 51716.html


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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1519213 wrote: No doubt some will make that claim.


Sure 'they' would..........but what about you ?
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Post by Bruv »

magentaflame;1519221 wrote: Pains me but just got rid of all my american friends off facebook..... i love these people but i just cant deal with their politics anymore

And yes it does pain me.

But think about it for a minute.....if i lived in england in the thirties woyld i want to be in wirh relatives in germany....apart from "you may wanna get out"?


It's hardly the average American's fault.

My government doesn't do what I want most of the time, and I am not at fault.
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Post by Bruv »

I find the images on TV beyond belief, how anyone can justify this ?
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1519222 wrote: Same as it always was. The victors write the history.


That's rather assuming the history now being written actually has a winner.

posted by bruv

I find the images on TV beyond belief, how anyone can justify this ?




You're talking about people who think trump is the new messiah and the second coming is due. Rathional is not a concept at play here.
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1519217 wrote: The NRA must love this -


Really?:-5

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Post by tude dog »

tude dog;1519234 wrote: :-5


spot;1519218 wrote: Calling what happened yesterday "self defence" is particularly nauseating, given the asymmetry involved.


That is the whole point of the deadly riots.
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Post by tude dog »

magentaflame;1519221 wrote: Pains me but just got rid of all my american friends off facebook..... i love these people but i just cant deal with their politics anymore

And yes it does pain me.

But think about it for a minute.....if i lived in england in the thirties woyld i want to be in wirh relatives in germany....apart from "you may wanna get out"?


I feel our pain, NOT

I have a brother who unfriended me cause of my disgust of trump.

Some would call him my kid brother, 12 yrs younger called me at home just to say like we do to say FU:wah:. Still not friends on facebook, This whole unfriending people on Facebook is silly.
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519236 wrote: That is the whole point of the deadly riots.


If you ever wonder how long the exile in Babylon lasted according to the Old Testament, it was the same duration as the Palestinians have been exiled to Gaza, the West Bank and the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Being powerless leaves a lasting memory.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519238 wrote: If you ever wonder how long the exile in Babylon lasted according to the Old Testament, it was the same duration as the Palestinians have been exiled to Gaza, the West Bank and the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Being powerless leaves a lasting memory.


NO

It should remember the horrors of Hamas.
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1519222 wrote: Same as it always was. The victors write the history.


I don't buy into that, nor does anybody else. If we did there would be no conflict.
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519239 wrote: NO

It should remember the horrors of Hamas.


You don't remember the horrors of Menachim Begin and the Irgun??

How do you react? The State would never have been established without the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

That differs from Hamas how, exactly?

You're surely not going to claim the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians by Menachim Begin and the Irgun didn't happen.
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Post by Bruv »

Is The Toode becoming even more inscrutable ?
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1519243 wrote: Is The Toode becoming even more inscrutable ?


That depends on whether he compares and contrasts Hamas with Menachim Begin and the Irgun, or whether he just ignores my post with yet another non-sequitur.
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Post by LarsMac »

tude dog;1519240 wrote: I don't buy into that, nor does anybody else. If we did there would be no conflict.


That is a very puzzling statement.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519238 wrote: If you ever wonder how long the exile in Babylon lasted according to the Old Testament, it was the same duration as the Palestinians have been exiled to Gaza, the West Bank and the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Being powerless leaves a lasting memory.


Arabs exiled to Arab land.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519241 wrote: You don't remember the horrors of Menachim Begin and the Irgun??

How do you react? The State would never have been established without the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

That differs from Hamas how, exactly?

You're surely not going to claim the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians by Menachim Begin and the Irgun didn't happen.


Let me help you out.

I invite you to add to the list.



List of Irgun operations
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519264 wrote: Let me help you out.

I invite you to add to the list.



List of Irgun operations


Do you regard any of that as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1519256 wrote: That is a very puzzling statement.


Have to admit looking back I should have let it rest and give it more thought.

History doesn't have to be viewed from a victor vs vanquish point of view. In a history class, our textbook was titled Conflict and Consensus. Collection of essays from Adam Smith to Karl Marx. Take the same facts and dice and slice it to any shape that fits your fancy.
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Post by LarsMac »

tude dog;1519266 wrote: Have to admit looking back I should have let it rest and give it more thought.

History doesn't have to be viewed from a victor vs vanquish point of view. In a history class, our textbook was titled Conflict and Consensus. Collection of essays from Adam Smith to Karl Marx. Take the same facts and dice and slice it to any shape that fits your fancy.


History SHOULDN'T be viewed from a Victor vs Vanquished PoV. On that we agree.

That would have been a good textbook, I think, but I grew up in the Deep South, and our textbooks were written to show us what a fine and upstanding, and powerful, God-inspired Nation America was. The Westward expansion was all about moving the pesky injuns out of the way so America could take her destined place in the world, and text on all of events across the Globe were from the perspective of how America saved the world from various and sundry evil-doers.
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519264 wrote: Let me help you out.

I invite you to add to the list.



List of Irgun operations
Do you regard any of that as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

How about if I focus on one line at a time so we have a specific to consider.

"1938, June 19 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa."

Do you regard that, for example, as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

Or would you prefer to sidestep the question.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519268 wrote: Do you regard any of that as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

How about if I focus on one line at a time so we have a specific to consider.

"1938, June 19 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa."

Do you regard that, for example, as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?

Or would you prefer to sidestep the question.


Thinking about the logic of strapping a bomb to somebody as to blow up innocent people.

List of Palestinian suicide attacks
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519269 wrote: Thinking about the logic of strapping a bomb to somebody as to blow up innocent people.

List of Palestinian suicide attacks


I'm not surprised in the slightest, it's your standard answer: would you prefer to sidestep the question. You're not offering conversation though. Just propaganda.
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Post by gmc »

tude dog;1519266 wrote: Have to admit looking back I should have let it rest and give it more thought.

History doesn't have to be viewed from a victor vs vanquish point of view. In a history class, our textbook was titled Conflict and Consensus. Collection of essays from Adam Smith to Karl Marx. Take the same facts and dice and slice it to any shape that fits your fancy.


Karl marx was heavily influenced by adam smith your textbook must have been an interesting read most people don't get the connection. by sheer coincidence Iwas in Adam smiths home town today, shouldn't have been misread the GPS

posted by Larsmac

History SHOULDN'T be viewed from a Victor vs Vanquished PoV. On that we agree.

That would have been a good textbook, I think, but I grew up in the Deep South, and our textbooks were written to show us what a fine and upstanding, and powerful, God-inspired Nation America was. The Westward expansion was all about moving the pesky injuns out of the way so America could take her destined place in the world, and text on all of events across the Globe were from the perspective of how America saved the world from various and sundry evil-doers.




Funnily enough we got much the same except it was how the british civilised the world while winnimng countless wars even though hopelessly ouitnumbered.
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spot;1519265 wrote: Do you regard any of that as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?


I'll just tell you, a lot of bad stuff was going all around.
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519277 wrote: I'll just tell you, a lot of bad stuff was going all around.


That is an interesting observation but it doesn't correspond to the question. It's evasive. Either Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged, as Hamas have been on many occasions, in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, or Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded were not, and I asked which statement is true. You know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, I know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, the difference between us is that you refuse to he honest in any discussion here because you choose not to engage in what's being said.

Menachem Begin was not some fly-by-night goon who escaped justice at the hands of a court of law, he became Prime Minister of Israel as a result of these outrages.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Just on the victors writing the history issue - yes, through most of recorded history they have. But from about the 1960s in the UK that issue was seriously addressed. Authority in general started to be questioned in ways it never had before at a popular level and academics were not immune. Certainly throughout my education we were constantly reminded that history was written by the winners and to look past that to get closer to the truth. It led to many careers being made by re-evaluations of British history and the modern widely held sense that colonialism was not actually a good thing is one of the results. It is also a reminder to anyone reading ancient texts that history as we understand it wasn't a consideration for most people writing in their own time: the purpose was to glorify the People (whoever they were) or the Ancestors (ditto) not to tell the literal truth. Certainly nowadays any historian worth the name is expected to have an awareness that that any writings had a writer and to consider the writer's possible views, biases and prejudices and that they themselves have their own assumptions, biases and prejudices.

Sadly, not all uphold this standard.

In addition, there are signs that the whole questioning of assumptions can go too far (though no-one is arguing that assumptions should not be challenged as far as I know). For example, when we studied the Wars of the Roses in school we were taught that the mediaeval texts that gave numbers and casualties were written by the winners and should be regarded as heavily influenced by propaganda. In particular it was argued that the portrayal of Richard III as a hunchback was Tudor propaganda - the Tudors being the Lancastrian dynasty that finally won. The Tudors were originally minor bit part players but all the big families were dead by then (see Game of Thrones). Then after some very neat detective work the grave of Richard III was found in Leicester and he did indeed have a severe hunchback. In contemporary accounts casualty figures for some of the battles were given, and the numbers involved. These were widely questioned and assumed to be false - various arguments about propaganda were deployed, even some arguments about whether it as possible to assemble that many men given the agricultural and transport capabilities of the time. Then they found the site of one o the battles where a rout and massacre had been reported in a battle that took place in thick snow. They found the battlefield, did a dig and found the site of the massacre. It all fit very well with the accounts given, and not much sign of exaggeration.

I believe a similar process has happened in the USA and it's been referred to above: tude dog was taught the Noble Manifest Destiny, God-given of a classic written by winners with big axes to grind type history. LarsMac got a more nuanced view (time and distance being to some extent interchangeable concepts) and certainly I've seen many Americans facing up to bits of their history and wincing and felt sympathy because I do the same with ours. Equally, there are parts where you can look and think well, we did some things not too badly, all things considered.

It's easy to go too far either way, really. History can just look like a record of endless misery when you consider the wars, famines and pestilences that punctuate it. We can forget that even with all our problems there has, for the bulk of people round the world, never been a better time to be alive with a good chance of making it past 40 and access to effective medicine and even education than about NOW.

Or in other words, be thankful you live in a time of soft lavatory paper and good dentistry. (with an acknowledgement to Terry Pratchett for that one).
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Post by Clodhopper »

I don't think there's any doubt Begin bombed and terrorised his way to power. Many have done so. Mao Zedong, Franco, Castro - any leader of a successful independence movement has done so throughout most of history. Take away the bomb and include horses and nomads have come out of the wild places and done the same. We've yet to find another way with the possible exception of the break up of the 2nd British Empire, India in particular (the loss of the American colonies marking the end of the 1st).

I can't say I have a particular gripe with Begin over many others. Particularly not just after the trauma of WW2. My gripe with Israel is that it treats the Palestinians in ways that are frighteningly reminiscent of the way the Nazis treated them. This was particularly brought home to me 20 odd years ago when my neighbour was an Israeli who had married his English teacher and settled over here with her. I remember him explaining to me how the Palestinians were animals, not really human.

Just seen a report that Trump has described illegal immigrants the same way.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519278 wrote: That is an interesting observation but it doesn't correspond to the question. It's evasive. Either Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged, as Hamas have been on many occasions, in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, or Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded were not, and I asked which statement is true. You know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, I know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, the difference between us is that you refuse to he honest in any discussion here because you choose not to engage in what's being said.

Menachem Begin was not some fly-by-night goon who escaped justice at the hands of a court of law, he became Prime Minister of Israel as a result of these outrages.


I know all about Menachem Begin. You want to rant, go ahead. I have no obligation to comment.
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1519287 wrote: I know all about Menachem Begin. You want to rant, go ahead. I have no obligation to comment.


On the contrary, you went off on one over Hamas if you remember. I'm merely trying to establish how you think they're different and you won't help me to find out.

We could change the Prime Minister if you like. Would Ariel Sharon be any easier to compare more favorably? Should I offer a third choice too?
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Post by spot »

You'll pardon me for thinking you're prejudiced, I hope. Or you could alternatively explain the difference and persuade me with your facts.

For the thread, the events of the opening post are discussed at https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ga ... 55631.html
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Post by LarsMac »

It is extremely annoying to me that almost EVERY time someone mentions bad behavior by people on one side of a conflict, some people must point out the bad behavior of the other side.

Killing civilians and children is unacceptable, IMHO, no matter who has killed them in the past.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1519288 wrote: On the contrary, you went off on one over Hamas if you remember. I'm merely trying to establish how you think they're different and you won't help me to find out.

We could change the Prime Minister if you like. Would Ariel Sharon be any easier to compare more favorably? Should I offer a third choice too?


They are different they were successful. Hitlers brownshirts were terrorists - they were successful at least for a while. The KKK were terrorists they succeeded for quite a few years now some would like to see them as a quaint echo from the past exercising their biblically inspired right to hate even as they cheer on donald trump. The NRA try to portray schoolchildren as terrorists for trying not to be slaughtered whilke at school. The british in india used terror churchill would have quite happily used mustard gas on the arabs in the 1920's. The british deliberately set out to terrorise the german civilian population in ww2 firebombing the cities. Nigel farage claims he was terrorised by snp supporters when he came to scotland and had to run for cover. Terror or justofiable murder in a good cause take your pick.. IMO trying to weigh up who is the nicest terrorist is a bit pointless.
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Post by spot »

You seem not to remember that the thread was discussing "Dozens of Palestinians dead" when tude decided to blame Hamas for making the Israeli Defense Force shoot civilian protesters. He seems confused as to who was firing the bullets.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519288 wrote: On the contrary, you went off on one over Hamas if you remember. I'm merely trying to establish how you think they're different and you won't help me to find out.


I will never hesitate to go after Hamas, a horrible criminal organization.

spot;1519288 wrote: We could change the Prime Minister if you like. Would Ariel Sharon be any easier to compare more favorably? Should I offer a third choice too?


Why not?
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519290 wrote: You'll pardon me for thinking you're prejudiced, I hope. Or you could alternatively explain the difference and persuade me with your facts.

For the thread, the events of the opening post are discussed at https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ga ... 55631.html


That is an opinion piece. The thread opened with

Israel faces outcry over Gaza killings during Jerusalem embassy protests
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1519291 wrote: It is extremely annoying to me that almost EVERY time someone mentions bad behavior by people on one side of a conflict, some people must point out the bad behavior of the other side.

Killing civilians and children is unacceptable, IMHO, no matter who has killed them in the past.


Yea, which makes me wonder why anybody would bring children to what is expected to be a violent riot?
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1519301 wrote: You seem not to remember that the thread was discussing "Dozens of Palestinians dead" when tude decided to blame Hamas for making the Israeli Defense Force shoot civilian protesters. He seems confused as to who was firing the bullets.


Hamas created all this over an Embassy in Jerusalem.

It is sad how those thugs treat their own people.
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Post by LarsMac »

tude dog;1519306 wrote: Hamas created all this over an Embassy in Jerusalem.

It is sad how those thugs treat their own people.


There is much more history than that, and you probably know that.

We cannot just focus on a single event. Palestinian and Israeli share the responsibility, along with the Europeans nations who helped create the mess in the first place.

We certainly can't depend on the Trumpster and that Buffoon in Israel to sort it out.
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1519307 wrote: There is much more history than that, and you probably know that.


It is the issue at hand.

LarsMac;1519307 wrote: We cannot just focus on a single event. Palestinian and Israeli share the responsibility, along with the Europeans nations who helped create the mess in the first place.


I'll settle for one issue at a time.

LarsMac;1519307 wrote: We certainly can't depend on the Trumpster and that Buffoon in Israel to sort it out.


I resent having to give the Trump credit for anything, but he performed his duties according to US law, something Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama at one time or another promised to do.

It should be obvious that the move of the embassy has no effect on Gaza or West Bank Arabs, but just an excuse to cause problems and play the victim card.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1519304 wrote: That is an opinion piece.


Looks like the UN is of the same opinion, and many many other countries that are not remotely Arab or Muslim.
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Post by Saint_ »

Bruv;1519212 wrote: Is Trump personally responsible for the aftermath of the decision to move the US Embassy ?


Yes. Yes he is.
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Post by Saint_ »

tude dog;1519303 wrote: I will never hesitate to go after Hamas, a horrible criminal organization.




I also agree with Tude Dog. Hamas sucks. They seize on every opportunity to cause trouble. Which is even another reason not to stir the pot and move the embassy.

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