Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:31 am

I can't seem to quote excerpts so here's the link - it's a short article.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/c ... spartanntp

There is apparently an investigation going on in the EU which has seized data and is active but of course there will be no investigation in the UK because senior Leave campaigners are in the government and able to make sure it doesn't happen.

The vote was the will of people - yeah sure. Just fewer of them were British than we thought.

Brexiters - the patsies of Yankee fascists and Putin.

The next attempt to ensure the devastation of the country happens on June 12th when the Gov't will attempt to overturn all the Lords amendments in a single sitting. They'll probably succeed because the whipping will be ferocious and Corbyn wanting Brexit for his experiments means Labour will probably back the government and there won't be enough rebels on both sides. However, there IS something of an organised cross party Remain group but whether they will be able to agree THIS is a moment to fight is a different matter. I can understand wanting to pick your fights but I fear they will keep saying, "Not now..." until it is too late:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/b ... spartanntp

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:34 am

You never seem to get a rational debate on this it always seems to be a brexiteers talking over anyone that disagrees and interviewers doing nothing to control them.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:12 pm

That's all brexiters HAVE done: spin lies. So it's not surprising that they can't agree among themselves after 2 years what brexit even is! Leave everything? Stay in the Single Market? Stay in the Customs Union? They said leaving the Customs Union and Single Market was madness - that no-one was even suggesting it before the vote - and now they are stuck in a fight between the hard and soft brexiters, paralysed. Meanwhile the Dutch government has reminded its car factories that UK parts will no longer count as EU parts after brexit, and to be sure that their cars are still at least 55% EU sourced to count as EU made.

Â£ was 1.35-1.40 vs the Euro before the vote. Slides between 1.07 and 1.15 now.

Investment down, inflation up, jobs leaving. What a mess.

And given 2 out of 3 gov't scenarios for hard brexit had food shortages I'm giving serious thought to stockpiling.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:18 am

I find myse3lf getting increasingly irratated by the coverage of these issues, never thought I would see the day but the bbc seems increasingkly to be the mouth piece of the government

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:57 am

gmc;1519512 wrote: I find myse3lf getting increasingly irratated by the coverage of these issues, never thought I would see the day but the bbc seems increasingkly to be the mouth piece of the government

On that one I consider myself too involved in the issues to be able to judge fairly. I consider it not pro-Brexit but trying to stay neutral, which would tend to make it look mealy mouthed from where I am. And it does. It is consistently attacked for being the EU's poodle and both far right and left accuse it of favouring the other. I also wonder to what extent it is concerned with avoiding riots and trying to damp down some of the heat around brexit.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:30 am

It was always obvious that there were going to be initial dips in the value of the Pound as a result of the Referendum. However, this is not directly a result of whether we're in or out of the EU. It's a matter of uncertainty one way or the other. If you look at a graph demonstrating the value of the pound on a daily / weekly basis, every time you see a dip is when there has been something in the news that puts some question over what is happening. When there was question about whether Article 50 would be invoked it dipped. Once it had been done it peaked again. Then, when there were questions as to whether or not it would be overruled, it dipped again, then once it was determined that it would stay in place it peaked again.

The simple point is that business requires some clarification of exactly what the situation is going to be so that they can make some level of contingency for it, whatever the outcome. The problem is that the Tories never had a Plan B for the unlikely event of the result being to leave. They were far too cock sure it would be overwhelmingly to Remain. And least Labour had formulated some plan, despite their also being certain it would be Remain. Even now it seems as if there is no positive plan in mind & time is rapidly running out. When challenged over & over again to state when they would release their White Paper on what their plans were May repeatedly dodged the question & refused to answer. One has to ask why.

Brexit is not the problem. It is the management of Brexit that is the real problem. Both sides of the House are agreed that we abide by the result of the Referendum, so it is accepted that we are leaving. Let us take that as a moot point. Now comes the question of how we go about it. It is a Cross Party issue, and I don't believe any individual Party has all the answers, so I believe that all Parties concerned need to get together on a Cross Party Committee & sort out a deal that is best for the COUNTRY, not the PARTY.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:16 pm

Clodhopper;1519480 wrote: I can't seem to quote excerpts so here's the link - it's a short article.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/c ... spartanntp

There is apparently an investigation going on in the EU which has seized data and is active but of course there will be no investigation in the UK because senior Leave campaigners are in the government and able to make sure it doesn't happen.

The vote was the will of people - yeah sure. Just fewer of them were British than we thought.

Brexiters - the patsies of Yankee fascists and Putin.

The next attempt to ensure the devastation of the country happens on June 12th when the Gov't will attempt to overturn all the Lords amendments in a single sitting. They'll probably succeed because the whipping will be ferocious and Corbyn wanting Brexit for his experiments means Labour will probably back the government and there won't be enough rebels on both sides. However, there IS something of an organised cross party Remain group but whether they will be able to agree THIS is a moment to fight is a different matter. I can understand wanting to pick your fights but I fear they will keep saying, "Not now..." until it is too late:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/b ... spartanntp

So the Remainers are whiter than white are they ? Let's face it, most politicians are corrupt to a greater or lesser degree aren't they ?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:57 pm

FourPart;1519524 wrote: Brexit is not the problem.

It is the management of Brexit that is the real problem.

I very nearly agree with you except that the EU was never the problem either.

The complaints of loss of sovereignty, migrants on benefits, floods of migrants etc. etc. that was the argument FOR Brexit we have all learned since was due to our (in your words) management of rules we had already had in place within the EU.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:26 am

G#Gill;1519529 wrote: So the Remainers are whiter than white are they ? Let's face it, most politicians are corrupt to a greater or lesser degree aren't they ?

In the sense that Hitler was a criminal and so is a shoplifter, yes. But then in those terms none of us has a leg to stand on since none of us are perfect. Some are pretty dodgy - far right tories, Liar Johnson for example. Others not so much - Davis is just stupid and lazy. Most actually get started in politics because they want to make a difference in a positive way. But politics has been described as the art of compromise and if you don't get everything you say you will people tend to see it as failure even if you got 75% of what you wanted, so we get spin and/or outright lies.

And the thing is it is increasingly clear that the Russians backed Brexit in real, practical ways, rich Americans and Trump backed Brexit in real practical ways, the brexit campaign looks very much as though it overspent and knew it and hid it, and with all that behind it, it still only squeaked a narrow "win".

Saw on my news feed today Farage admitting that the country looked as though it was going to be worse off after Brexit, in his view because we've got the wrong leader. From the leader who ran away.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:57 pm

David davis show his utter contempt for our parilamentary process. If people voted fpr brexit to take back control I'm fairly sure most didn;t want parliament to be sidestepped by a bunch of fasciosyts.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 25256.html

Secondly, what we canâ€™t have is either House of Parliament reversing the decision for the British people. They havenâ€™t got a veto â€“ what does it mean otherwise?

Looks like indyref 2 is now on the cards

'Dark day for devolution' as shambolic Commons vote sees power grab pass | The National

FARCICAL scenes in the House of Commons last night ended with the debate over the fate of Holyrood post-Brexit being given just 15 minutes in the chamber, with not one Scottish MP allowed to speak.

Of course the utter contempt being shown for the scottish parliament and the devolution settlement won't feature in any of the mainstream reports.

The referendum was advisoryt it was never intended to be binding. I really hate what is happening to our democracy.

Just to emphasise the point not a single one of the mainstream papers mentions it.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/162868 ... the_cover/

The story is, quite simply, that the vote in the Commons yesterday has fundamentally changed our relationship with devolution.

Westminster have taken an irreversible step down a path they may regret starting on.

There is really not a single argument anyone could now put that could justify staying as part of the united kingdom.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:06 am

Yeah, have to admit I was totally unaware that there had been any element to the day devoted to the devolved Institutions. Was there anything on Wales and NI in this?

A lot has happened overnight as well - it now seems May has not quite lied to the Remain rebels who didn't in the end rebel. However it also seems she not quite lied to the brexiters too about what she said to the Remainers. See my previous post about the art of compromise.

However I did notice several Remainers who spoke referred to the personal word of the PM they had received and were explicit that they had accepted that word in good faith. If they really meant it then May has played her last card and won't be able to give a last minute concession (as she has twice now) in the future, UNLESS she delivers on what the Remainers understood her word to have been and if she does then the brexiters will claim she lied to them. It has however, as it stands, become a closed issue for this Parliament - unless a future crisis brings it back.

IF I have understood it correctly, the Remainers have been deceived because they thought they had a commitment to a further amendment but May is apparently claiming to brexiters that she only committed to DISCUSS an amendment with the implication that there would be no more than discussions, which would keep her word to both sides but give the brexiters what they want. Apart from anything there is no way she'll reopen this issue having got it through Parliament, I think. Dead and gone and she'll hope she can whip up a special situation that demands their party loyalty for the next crisis.

This post is also relevant to my points about the honesty and otherwise of politicians. May has given her word to two opposing sides. She seems to feel she has been clever because her careful wording means she has not in the literal sense, lied to either. However she will I think find that won't wash with Remainers who thought they had received an assurance and won't, I suspect, laugh cheerily and say, "Oh! Caught out by those semantics again! Hohohoho. Very clever! I will follow this Leader wherever she goes!"

And that means that in a future Brexit crisis the PM's word will not avert a rebellion.

A very angry Anna Soubry, who appears to have aged 10 years in the last 1, lambasting cowardly Remainers in Business, in the Commons, in Gov't and even in the Cabinet for grabbing her for a quiet word, expressing their despair at Brexit, telling her well done and keep going, and NEVER breaking cover and speaking out themselves.

It's all ongoing of course. I'm hopping around trying to find it now...

...and I can't click on the Scots Nat article without getting cookied by a lot of people I've never heard of and I can't seem to say no to it so haven't gone any further.

edit: They've just left Gove at the Select Committees and are setting up for Parliament today: Welsh Questions.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:13 am

FourPart;1519524 wrote: It was always obvious that there were going to be initial dips in the value of the Pound as a result of the Referendum. However, this is not directly a result of whether we're in or out of the EU. It's a matter of uncertainty one way or the other. If you look at a graph demonstrating the value of the pound on a daily / weekly basis, every time you see a dip is when there has been something in the news that puts some question over what is happening. When there was question about whether Article 50 would be invoked it dipped. Once it had been done it peaked again. Then, when there were questions as to whether or not it would be overruled, it dipped again, then once it was determined that it would stay in place it peaked again.

The simple point is that business requires some clarification of exactly what the situation is going to be so that they can make some level of contingency for it, whatever the outcome. The problem is that the Tories never had a Plan B for the unlikely event of the result being to leave. They were far too cock sure it would be overwhelmingly to Remain. And least Labour had formulated some plan, despite their also being certain it would be Remain. Even now it seems as if there is no positive plan in mind & time is rapidly running out. When challenged over & over again to state when they would release their White Paper on what their plans were May repeatedly dodged the question & refused to answer. One has to ask why.

Brexit is not the problem. It is the management of Brexit that is the real problem. Both sides of the House are agreed that we abide by the result of the Referendum, so it is accepted that we are leaving. Let us take that as a moot point. Now comes the question of how we go about it. It is a Cross Party issue, and I don't believe any individual Party has all the answers, so I believe that all Parties concerned need to get together on a Cross Party Committee & sort out a deal that is best for the COUNTRY, not the PARTY.

Brexit is completely the problem. Russian interference in the referendum is the problem. US billionaire interference via Cambridge Analytica is the problem. The Daily Lying ****ing Mail is the problem. Banks is the problem, with his ties to BeLeave and Russians. Johnson is the problem with his LIES. Another far right brexiter setting up to murder a Labour MP is the problem. YOUR people.

Take some responsibility for what you have done, the car smash you are making of this country.

Two years - TWO YEARS into this process and you morons cannot decide what you want. You lied about what was on offer and THAT is why it is a disaster. You lied about how easy it would be. You lied about how much it would cost. Most of the claims made against the EU are lies - immigration being a big one.

Two out of the three forecasts (good, medium, bad) produced by your department of Exiting the EU - Davis' own department - have food and medical shortages within a fortnight. If this was the easiest negotiation ever why is that? Why after two years if the EU would cave to our demands cannot brexiters anywhere agree even now on what Brexit even is let alone what our demands are?

It's because they told so many lies they started to believe them themselves, and now they can't tell the difference between their lies and reality, and reality doesn't even notice their lies and runs roughshod over our ill-made preparations and smashes lives. Unless your lot can get it together you will watch your vote starve and kill people, on two out of three scenarios. What chance do you think we have of reaching a scenario marked "good" that does not involve starving and killing people through lack of medical supplies and food?

Project Fear you lot called it. Now your own side has produced studies that make Project Fear look as though it massively lacked ambition.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:28 am

gmc: Get on the Parliament Channel now - Scots in action.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:36 am

They've just walked out in solidarity with a member who refused to take his seat after his request for a vote now rather than at the end of the session was refused. I couldn't follow the exact detail even though I was watching it.

This is PMQ's - we haven't even got to the amendments yet. Walking was dramatic but is the gesture enough?

No idea if they are out for the day or just PMQ's. I think the MP who refused to take his seat is out for the day.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:13 am

Ah - we get the reasons for what appears to have been a pre-arranged publicity stunt by the SNP. The issue was time available, all procedures were correctly followed and SNP members had intervened. There's a genuine issue about time, but the Scots aren't alone in that - all these issues need more time. Imagine what it would have been like in the original 1 day allocated.

Lib Dem and Labour Scots MPs not impressed by what they have called a childish stunt.

edit: He's out for the day, the other SNP members can come back if they want but the Opposition is now down one vote at least.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:51 am

Clodhopper;1519575 wrote: Ah - we get the reasons for what appears to have been a pre-arranged publicity stunt by the SNP. The issue was time available, all procedures were correctly followed and SNP members had intervened. There's a genuine issue about time, but the Scots aren't alone in that - all these issues need more time. Imagine what it would have been like in the original 1 day allocated.

Lib Dem and Labour Scots MPs not impressed by what they have called a childish stunt.

edit: He's out for the day, the other SNP members can come back if they want but the Opposition is now down one vote at least.

It's not about the time allocated the scottish parliament has rejected the brexit bill. The tories are trying to take away the devolved powers from scotland for the last twenty years years westminster has not overuled the scottish parliament on devolved issues they allocated 15 minutes to discuss the part of the bill that will remove authority from the scottish parliament and had a tory MP. not even a scottish one talk for that 15 minutes. Not a single scottish MP waas allowed to speak on the matter. The tories want to undo devolution and now their naked contempt fopr scortland is there for all to see.

Bear in mind this is about things like privatising the nhs, doing deals with the US and giving away thew special status pof scottish and english goods, it's about fracking - the scottish parliemant has imposed a moratorium on fracking this means for instance that westminster will be able to allow it to go ahead regardless of who objects - I live in west lothian I don't want fracking at any price.

Calling it a stunt diminishes the seriousaness of it all and prevents people like you actually being inclined to see what all the fuss is about. At least now this is beinmg reported on.

WATCH: Tory MP in vile 'suicide' heckle towards SNP in Commons | The National

Amid the democratic outrage that resulted in that situation, SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford asked: "Mr Speaker, what options are available to us in this house to ensure that the Government understands real concern among people in Scotland at this unprecedented power grab, and how can we make sure that our voices are heard?"

READ MORE: Westminster votes through power grab on Scotland in 15 minutes

Immediately after the MP asks "what options are available", an MP can be heard shouting "suicide".

The speaker chose to ignore that do you wonder the snp are getting fed up. There are also tory MP's openly gloating about how little influence the snp have on the union. Keep it up boys amd you might not have a union for much longer.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:57 am

I was watching it live, not reading reports. It was Scots Labour and Lib Dem MPs who called it a childish stunt. Yesterday I missed a lot of it but as far as I'm aware, England didn't get any time, Wales got no time, NI got no time - well other than the Border is a problem - and in that context 15 mins for Scotland looks generous. 2 days for the whole UK debate is not enough.

It was a stunt, designed to make it look as though Scotland was being picked on when it wasn't. Shabby, imo. And unnecessary.

And yeah, the far right of the tory party are gloating. You can occasionally hear them. They are ****ing foul and frankly people I regard as total filth. Start considering that they are "the English" and I'll have to assume that the No Friends South of the Border crowd are all Scots north of it. Sauce for the goose. As to the Speaker ignoring the abuse, the SNP sit at the far end of the Chamber from the Speaker and if the microphone picked up the heckle it was from fairly close by the SNP. Did he even hear it?

Edit: It does suggest that the Indyref 2 campaign has started.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:17 am

Clodhopper;1519578 wrote: I was watching it live, not reading reports. It was Scots Labour and Lib Dem MPs who called it a childish stunt. Yesterday I missed a lot of it but as far as I'm aware, England didn't get any time, Wales got no time, NI got no time - well other than the Border is a problem - and in that context 15 mins for Scotland looks generous. 2 days for the whole UK debate is not enough.

It was a stunt, designed to make it look as though Scotland was being picked on when it wasn't. Shabby, imo. And unnecessary.

And yeah, the far right of the tory party are gloating. You can occasionally hear them. They are ****ing foul and frankly people I regard as total filth. Start considering that they are "the English" and I'll have to assume that the No Friends South of the Border crowd are all Scots north of it. Sauce for the goose. As to the Speaker ignoring the abuse, the SNP sit at the far end of the Chamber from the Speaker and if the microphone picked up the heckle it was from fairly close by the SNP. Did he even hear it?

Edit: It does suggest that the Indyref 2 campaign has started.

They would wouldn't they they are after all doing what they are told by their party whips and abstaining. You are still missing the point. The scottish parliament voted to reject the brexit bill. Westminster as part of thye devolution agreement is not supposed to impose legislation on scotland against the express opposition of the scottish government and for the last 20 years they have not done so. Not only are they now doing so they are deliberately making sure that the matter does not get a hearing. It was a stunt to get the matter brought to the public's attention in thgat it seems to have been successful. In effect the westminster parliemant is an engilsh one and does not represent the whole of the UK to claim england didn't get any time is nonsese. This is supposed to be a united kingdom of four seperate nations united together for the common good. Treating one of those country's with contempt does not say much for the prospects for the future. The welsh can do what they want realistically they have no prospect of being able to survive on their own also umnlike scotland they do not have a seperate legal and education system ours has been seperate since the act of union and is in many qways quite different from the english one. This isn't about disliking the english although how scottish nationalism is somehow divisive and the jingoistic, racist nationalism of ukip et al is not is something poerhaops the daily mail can explain.

The snp manifesto stated that thyey accepted the referendum results if there was a material change of circumstances they would go reserve the option of another referendum they were elected to the scottish parliament with a proportional representation election. The parties that bang on about a second referendum all the time are the tories and labour they are always bringing the matter up, indeed ruth davidson brings it up ad nauseum a since it is easioer than having to answer question about what her party is up to. Indyref2 is now very much on the cards but the momentun is not coming from the snp. The snp would not necessarily be elected to office after independence in part a large part of their success was due to new labour not being left wing enough not to being the corruption rife amongst labour and tory councillors.

I suggest you watch what is happening in northen ireland they also voted to remain the dup, if you recall are the ones responsible for there being no government in stormont and now that ireland seems to be increasingly secular the likelihood of unification draws ever nearer. It;s npt just the scots the tories are pissing off.

You are right two days is not enough the brexitteers are determined to get this railroaded through no matter what preferable by emasculating parliament ands it looks like they are going to succeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-solihull

You'd think the daily mail would be all over that would'nt you? Never mind perhaps when we make our super dooper deal with india post brexit we can get tata to build something else in thye meantime brexut is wonderful in this the best of all possible brexiteer paradises.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:46 am

If that's the only time in the brexit process the Scottish devolution issue is raised then you have a point - I've been assuming this was all about the amendments coming back from the Lords and Scottish Devolution would have its own separate discussion - there are whole areas these last debates did not cover, or only slightly covered. But if that was the ONLY time Scottish Devolution is due to come up from now on then fair enough. Sneaky May attempting to shut that one down before it starts, if that's the case. Dumb and short-sighted as ever.

I don't expect NI or Scotland to stay in the UK after a hard brexit. I think Scotland will be gone within 5 years, NI within 10. I can't really see May or Corbyn negotiating a Brexit that will be any sort of success, all they might possibly do is slow that break up process. But one way or another I think brexit means the break up of the UK.

I haven't watched a day in the Commons straight through like that for a long time and I was reminded what a very personal, social thing politics is, in our Parliament, and there's much more cross-party discussion goes on than formal debates or things like PMQ's give the impression. That was true even before the referendum. Now with both main parties split it seems to have increased enormously.

edit: I would be surprised that the Lib Dem Scots didn't react if that was the ONLY time Scottish Devolution was due to come up - the Lib Dems support Devolution (a policy I agree with).

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:39 am

It is the only time after the bill is passed the taking away of powers can't be stopped. May has consistently refused to even meet with thge SNP despite them being the third largest party in the house. Mundell is a tory to say he speaks for scotland on this is obscene. The tories quite clearly want to end devolution or at least emasculte the scottish parliament. NB you wil notice none of this is being discussed in the mainstream newspapers or TV. Question time this week, given what has happened you would think someone from the snp would feature but they don't. During the first referendul nigel farage was on more often than any snp msp. George galloway was on thirteen times.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:04 am

Hmm. We're all guessing what's going on in an unprecedented situation at least to some extent I think. But if that defeat means you've lost on this issue then there a whole lot of other issues that have also been lost on including anyone but Ministers having any say on the future. For all of us, not just the Scots.

My impression is that the whole Amendments issue comes down to a meaningful vote for Parliament. The Scottish Devolution issue isn't settled by this - if May has attempted a power grab it just won't work - it will play into the SNP's hands and is being used for exactly that purpose whether that was the intention or not. I don't think the Lib Dem MPs or Labour Scots would have stayed quiet on a Devolution issue if that was it and all about it. Certainly not if the SNP MPs had talked to them. But to southern eyes, the SNP are coming across as much like the DUP these days.

Actually, there has been a change. A year or two ago the SNP were a constructive force in Parliament and asked good questions. Now they give the impression their sole purpose is to be victims. Perhaps I'm overstating but there's been a definite shift in that sort of direction. More like UKIP in the EU Parliament perhaps? Not impressed by the leader. Comes across as a right bog head.

If that was the end of the matter on the devolution powers that were supposed to be happening - 15 minutes and dead - then you've every right to be upset and you've had Indyref2 handed you on a plate. Effectively, you've won. It'll take a while to play out but that will be the result.

Agree completely this Tory government is trying to kill devolution. That is their track record and they are the Conservative and Unionist Party when given their full title, iirc.

There are going to be a number of other crunches before the end. Not only are the tories teetering on the edge of a split now (if May doesn't keep her word to the rebels, as understood by them, that's pretty much it, I think) but there were 6 Labour front bench resignations so they could vote against their Party on the matter.

This isn't the end. Things are just starting to hot up.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:04 am

Both labour and the lib dems voted to reject the brexit bill but they are against independence they're not likely to support the snp that's why they abstaineed on the vote in westminster - doing what their party told them to do and not sticking uyp for scotland. When tony blair bought in devolution labour thought it would kill off independence altogether that is hasn't is due to labours incompetence in both local and in the scottish government. Tony Blair almost killed off the labour party

Actually, there has been a change. A year or two ago the SNP were a constructive force in Parliament and asked good questions. Now they give the impression their sole purpose is to be victims. Perhaps I'm overstating but there's been a definite shift in that sort of direction. More like UKIP in the EU Parliament perhaps? Not impressed by the leader. Comes across as a right bog head.

Maybe you didn't gewt the point but they are not being allowed to speak and don't forget scotland is not just another county it is one of the nations that make up the united kingdom.

Mhairi Black: Every promise we were made in 2014 has now been broken | The National

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:22 pm

Look at the paper you are reading. Spot the agenda?

No bloody bugger is being allowed to speak! Lots of people are going doolally about it!

Scottish Devolution is not being singled out, it is just the most important thing to you and you are noticing it most for that reason but everything else is being buggered too!

Notice the person most behind the rebellion? Tory MP Dominic Grieve. He's the bloke who has stuck his head up and said, "Here's the line." Not all Tories are all bad by definition.

edit: We are not getting across to eachother.

Hmm.

All I can do at present is say that Scottish devolution is just one of the issues going on that cover the whole of the UK including Scotland and the SNP in Westminster are NOT impressing and making friends. Look back at the timing on this thread: there isn't time for a whipped response. That was a spontaneous reaction to what they believed was a pre-planned publicity stunt. Really - check the timing differences in my posts..

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:43 am

Look at the paper you are reading. Spot the agenda?

Well knock me sideways with a candlestick, a scottish paper called the national and I never noticed it's agenda. :-5

Joking aside I use it in posts cos quite frankly you won't find many of the issues in any of the mainstream media.

Scottish devolution is being singled out that's the whole point. Don't forget none of the promises made during the indyref have been kept most scots are well aware of that.

Yes there are other issues involved and you are right in that living in scotland makes devolution of pressing concern. Methinks other parts of the country are beginning to grasp the disaster brexit is going to be but those other matters are not likely to lead to the break up of the united kingdom. It's something that should concern you - we would be OK not so sure about england and wales not with the tories in charge..

I see theresa may is giving money to the nhs - the brexit bounce and funnily enough not a single one of the tory press seems able to do the basic arithmetic and opint out ten years of less than inflation increases on spending on the nhs is in actual fact a real terms cut in funding. 1% growth in the economy more than covers what we give to the eu since brexit growth is in the toilet and likely to get flushed.

Heard a lovely term during a discussion - brexidiot.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:44 am

Well, the stunt certainly had an effect - 7,000+ new members for the SNP, according to Andrew Neil on Sunday.

In a way, that we disagree on the exact importance of the issue is secondary: We do both agree it is important and there are also a number of other important issues being fought over.

Agree too that more people are beginning to see what a disaster we have coming. But I think there are great swathes of England and Wales which voted Leave and nothing has changed as far as they are concerned - it's all fake news and traitors and everything is fine really, or will be once we have left. After we have left they will blame Remainers, the BBC and the Governor of the Bank of England for everything. (Some already are, which is why I am so confident)

It makes no difference to me if they are attempting to have their cake and eat it with a far right or far left agenda, they are making England unbearable. Fortunately there are some signs contacting the MP has had an effect on my lodger's situation - I haven't seen the emails but he's been in contact and things appear to be happening - even some money!!! However, given one call to sort this out has been booked for the 4th July (by them) it isn't going to be quick. However I will be moving when I can and the Borders still looks like the destination, ready for major smuggling operations.

Brexidiot, brextit, or just plain ****wit - all much the same. My favourite these days is Gammon: Fat, jowly faces red with rage on Question Time. They'll still be the same after brexit because nothing ever pleases them.

Rules change after brexit, and that refers to brexiters too. After brexit they are simply resources to be used as convenient. It's dog eat dog after brexit. No social consideration, just the rule of the jungle. The powerful will thrive and the weak will go to the wall: it always happens when people are fooled into thinking Utopia is just round the corner.

Just after the referendum I posted elsewhere lamenting the disaster. "How bad could it get?" I was asked by people who thought the worst would be a recession for a year or so them back to normal. When I said malnutrition or possibly even starvation in the worst affected areas I was laughed at. Now we see that of the 3 leaked studies into the effects of good, medium and bad brexit we see that 2 of the 3 predict food and medical shortages within days.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:02 am

Give you an example of just one of the reasons scots are upset at the power grab

Ineos loses legal challenge against Scottish Government's fracking ban | The National

The scottish government wilkl not be able to stop fracking just as councils in england cannot stop fracking after the governmment changes the planning regulations so local councils

https://drillordrop.com/2015/08/13/mini ... lications/

As widely predicted, the government has announced measures to take decisions on fracking plans out of local authority hands. It will also consider ruling where companies appeal against a refusal of planning permission.

A statement this morning by the Energy Secretary, Amber Rudd, and the Communitiesâ€™ Secretary, Greg Clark, said shale gas applications would be â€œfast-trackedâ€ through what they described as a â€œnew, dedicated planning processâ€.

The reason they want the powers is so they can asset strip the UK and for whose benefit? You tell me I'm not in the least cynical about this.

Don't know if you will the time to watch this but it is informative.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:55 am

To me, that is a UK wide issue, not a Scottish Devolution issue: All Local Councils are facing the same issue across the UK. Scotland does have a solution available that is not available to English Councils: Leave; and I can see how, if you are already committed to Scottish Independence, this is another good reason for it.

I am, reluctantly and only because of brexit, a supporter of Scottish independence from the UK and membership of the EU. I don't feel I am choosing between good and bad, I feel I am choosing between bad and worse.

Incidentally, it might interest you to know that I think I understand now how we ended up with fracking as an issue and it is pretty much down to Sir Edward Davey. As far as I have been able to piece it together it goes like this:

He was appointed Minister for Climate Change and Energy in the Coalition Government. His brief was to solve the energy crisis that is looming as we pass peak oil and face brownouts by the 2030s unless we have a solution up and running before then. Being Minister for Climate Change as well had a big impact on his approach. He also seems to have wanted to be sure we were not reliant on any single foreign power for our energy, particularly Russia. His solution was to diversify our energy sources as much as possible, encouraging wind and water power experiments but also fracking and nuclear, and Hinckley with its Chinese connection looks like a deliberate counter to the inevitable fact we will be buying gas from Russia.

I can't say I agree with all his solutions totally but I can see the logic, and it's worth noting that under his plan Local Councils could block fracking.

edit: crunch day today in Parliament.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 am

I can't say I agree with all his solutions totally but I can see the logic, and it's worth noting that under his plan Local Councils could block fracking.

But now they can no longer do so.

Guess where a large percentage of the shale oil reserves are located - scotland. Who wqill benefit from fracking? Certainly not the locals who will be left withn the consequences. It's not as though we don't have viable alternatives.

Mundell is now on record - during the debate on the sewell convention - as stating Scotland is not a partner of the UK, it is part of the UK. I suspect he would lose his seat in another general election.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:35 am

But now they can no longer do so.

Yup. He was though acting in line with Liberal principle and devolving the decision as locally as he could. If you can't do something because a future government might change it then there's little that can ever be done.

chuckle. Perhaps it might be of some comfort to you to know there are also fracking possibilities in the Surrey commuter belt. Might concentrate a few big business and political minds if they are flaring off unwanted gas of a quiet evening or weekend at their local fracking site...

Technically Mundell is correct. We are all part of the UK not partners with it. If Scotland leaves then it might choose to be a partner with the UK in some matters, it might not.

If Indyref2 isn't underway it looks as though Sturgeon is doing a good test of the waters while May's attention is elsewhere.

And Grieve backed down. He seems to believe Parliament can still intervene and does know about this sort of thing, but others are sure fairly sure he's been fooled. As things stand it seems to me he's been fooled; maybe he'll pull some procedural rabbit out of the hat if needed. Don't know. Doubt it. Looks to me as if the rebels have made the classic error: not this time, not this time, not this time, too late.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:28 pm

Sorry quotation box seems not to be working.

"Technically Mundell is correct. We are all part of the UK not partners with it. If Scotland leaves then it might choose to be a partner with the UK in some matters, it might not"

Actually no he's not. It's a union of diverse nations for the common good. If remaining is no longer in the common good then any nation reserves the right to leave that union.

Maybe you don't remember the "vow"

""The Vow was a joint statement by the leaders of the three main unionist parties, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, promising more powers for Scotland in the event of a No vote. Included in The Vow was that in the event of a No vote:

The Scottish parliament would be permanent

Extensive new devolved powers would be delivered

The Barnett formula for funding Scottish Government expenditure would continue

The Vow was published in the Daily Record,[5] one of the main tabloid newspapers in Scotland that also backed a No vote in the referendum. The explanation and background to the publication of The Vow was explained in the Daily Record itself one year after the referendum when it outlined that following a poll showing the 'Yes' side ahead, it was felt that firm promises of more powers were required from the 'No' side.[6]""

Sorry quatations and bold type not working at all.

Most scots do. The first two just went out the window. Clearly the tories intend to undo devolution.

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/archi ... ependence/

â€œI canâ€™t remain silent as May, [David] Davis, [Jacob] Rees-Mogg, [Boris] Johnson and [Michael] Gove undermine the stability of a continent that has largely been at peace for 70 years.â€

Mr Foote admitted that an independent Scotland would face â€œfinancial challengesâ€ in the years after a Yes vote.

â€œThe difficult decisions our independent nation would face and the sacrifices we may need to make do trouble me,â€ he wrote.

â€œBut what troubles me more is the prospect of bequeathing to my daughters an isolated Britain governed indefinitely by the progeny of Rees-Mogg and their ilk.

â€œI have reconciled that independence would herald good and bad. I trust in us to solve the problems that will come our way. If so many other countries can, it is inconceivable that Scotland canâ€™t.â€

Oh and in case you are wondering what other assets are up for grabs

Westminster's 'money grab' slammed after Â£167m sale of valuable Scottish asset | The National

Trust me I'm a tory just doesn't work any more nor does the libdem I'm a well meaning idiot or labour's well who knows what they stand for any more. Perhaps they are akin to the orchestra that played while the titanic went down.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:19 pm

Sounds like Mr Foote is very much in my position: doesn't like the idea but thinks the alternative is worse.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:41 am

That would seem a fair assessment. Saw nogel farage and alastair cambell on the daily politics show today. Campbell seems to be better able to keep his temper nowadays and farage is still a liar.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:50 am

Been reading a lot of Campbell in the New European. Bit more wisdom these days to go with the wit, perhaps.

It seems the official enquiry into Leave's alleged money laundering activities during the referendum campaign is heavily critical. The reason this is suspected is that those criticised get copies of those parts of the report and a chance to respond before the final report is published and the Press have picked up some screaming coming from Leave campaigners implicated. Legal challenges will delay things one can assume, so perhaps the report won't be released in time to be relevant at all, but it looks pretty damning.

When you have a vote that was won by a very small margin and find that the "winning" side was hugely in breach of the rules then the result of that referendum has no validity. The country was cheated.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:39 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 14176.html

Leading businesses should stop warning about the economic impact of Brexit and instead â€œget behind Theresa Mayâ€, Jeremy Hunt has said.

The health secretary said it was â€œcompletely inappropriateâ€ for industry leaders to â€œundermineâ€ the prime minister by speaking out about their fears.

We have an unelected prime minister being given dictorial powers thank goodness we are taking back control.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:45 am

In this situation I am not taking it for granted that you will even try to leave the UK until I see it. At present it seems to me Sturgeon is only testing the waters: nothing she has done so far can be clearly shown to be an attempt to start indyref2, she could stop the process now and deny they'd ever planned anything.

I think she wants to go ahead; whether she judges the time is NOW is a different matter.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:25 am

Clodhopper;1519698 wrote: In this situation I am not taking it for granted that you will even try to leave the UK until I see it. At present it seems to me Sturgeon is only testing the waters: nothing she has done so far can be clearly shown to be an attempt to start indyref2, she could stop the process now and deny they'd ever planned anything.

I think she wants to go ahead; whether she judges the time is NOW is a different matter.

She's playing a canny hand, remember the vote was to stay in the union in 2014 so she's doing her best to preserve it and not be seen as going hell for leather independence regardless of the consequences. It's not all about the SNP the walkout has had the effect of making more scots aware of what is at stake post-Brexit and there is a groundswell for independence now. Salmond lost his seat to a tory and if you look at which seats they lost it was in areas that voted to remain in the union and out of the eu the SNP are a bit like marmite in some ways, not all their policies have been successful. Most people in Scotland do understand how being in the EU benefits us now it should be becoming clear to the farmers and fishermen and those in the oil industry who have now lost their jobs just how bad tory Britain Brexit post-Brexit is going to be the tories are hanging on by their fingernails.

In the manifesto they accepted the results of the referendum but reserved the option of calling another referendum should there be a material change - such as leaving the EU and remember that was one of the key issues during the referendum. She also said post-EU referendum that there would be no indyref until it was clear what the Brexit deal was going to be. Despite what was reported in the likes of the daily mail and the BBC she has never actually said anything different the only ones that go on about independence are actually the tories ruth Davidson mentions it more than anyone else. They started the 2014 campaign with less than25% of the people in favour of independence with the entire media hostile to the idea and pushing a pack of lies (the vow for example) that some fell for and hopefully people won't be so gullible now and the way the Scottish government is being sidelined and mocked in Westminster

This isn't about whether Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP run Scotland it's about whether Scotland should be an independent nation and the SNP will be able to call for a referendum claiming quite accurately that they did their best for Scotland staying in the union and now the only option left is independence. All the arguments put for a hard Brexit equally apply for a hard Scottish independence settlement. You really do need us more than we need you. Goodness knows how the labour party is going to end up after all this. Twenty years from now I can visualise a history exam question. Did Tony Blair and Gordon Brown destroy the labour party?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 am

The mocking works for you of course but it isn't actually anti-Scottish per se. It's a standard part of the way Westminster operates and expresses its feelings. Liar Johnson got a fair dose yesterday for hiding in Afghanistan and the Scottish Nationalist Party can expect a lot of it from the Conservative and Unionist Party by their very nature as expressed in the full names.

I'm aware of the material change element to indyref1 and since my argument against Scottish Independence during it was based around EU membership I'm rather forced into a position where I cannot deny that Brexit is a material change and my reasons against Scottish independence have been largely destroyed by it. Add to that the total dog's Brexit they are making of it and tough though it will be to actually go through with, I think it is worth it to Scotland if England and Wales leave.

I'll be very interested if Sturgeon starts having little chats with the Norwegians and Icelanders. I think she is already talking to Varadkar in Ireland.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:27 am

Waste of space.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:44 pm

chuckle. I was glad to see that Farage had stopped laughing by the end. Some of what Verhofstadt said got through. What he said was absolutely true.

Big issue of Scottish independence is that you have a huge sea territory and you need a navy and air force to control it. That IS necessary full stop. If you intend to stay part of NATO you have responsibilities to keep track of hostile/Russian activity as well. That's expensive.