Looking for a good debate...

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:08 am

Hello everyone. I just joined up here last night, read the post about Animal Planet, replied, and thought I'd say howdy.

Anyone here ride motorcycles? How about hunting? Those are two of my all-time favorite things to do, and I'd like to hear from anyone who shares those interests.

I'm also a mom, a bartender, just got engaged, (planning a wedding, any tips out there???), and I love to debate and discuss all kinds of things.

Funny thing, I somehow found myself on the site called "Bolt" and after poking around, found a discussion on gun control, one of my passions. I started to post some replies, and found out my opinion wasn't very popular. That didn't bother me so much, and I soon realized, it was a teen forum. There is nothing in the home page to give a clue to that, and I'm wondering if this is the same thing here. Any slightly older folks here? I'm 34, and don't have a whole lot of patience for being told I'm an idiot by people who aren't old enough to vote yet. (haha). So, I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone! Happy New Year, all!

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:38 am

welcome BabyRider..

Yep. you will find plenty of debate here.. with lots of ummm.. mature debaters.. hahahahahaha

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:20 pm

Hi grey! Thanks for the welcome! Was the "mature" term used sarcastically? (haha) As long as the people debating know what they are talking about and remember at least Jimmy Carter as president!! Thanks again, I've already found lots of interesting things to talk about. Happy New Year to you!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:22 pm

Hi Susie! Thank you for the welcome! When is your wedding?

Funny thing here, you had your daughter at the same age I had my son. Can you point out some interesting stuff here? I'm kind of fumbling around blindly, getting used to it though. Happy New Year to you and your family.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:33 pm

My wedding won't be till June of 2006. It's going to be a ridiculously huge gathering, (my fiance is a biker) so we need time to save up! All this time and planning for one day...sheesh!

I'm sure I'll like it here, so far everyone is really nice, and I've gotten lots of replies to my introduction. As long as I can avoid pissing anyone off because I'm so opinionated, I'll be around! (haha)

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:35 pm

BabyRider wrote: Hello everyone. I just joined up here last night, read the post about Animal Planet, replied, and thought I'd say howdy.

Anyone here ride motorcycles? How about hunting? Those are two of my all-time favorite things to do, and I'd like to hear from anyone who shares those interests.

Before my uh --maturety caught up with me, i raced dirt bikes, hunting, fishing, and camping were passions. all kinds of discussions abound here, I'm currently trying to corral some Euro types to discuss Iraq.

I plan eventually get involved in some gun discussions.

Pretty sure you'll like it here, good folks. So from the desert side of the garden, welcome.:-6

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:41 pm

Hi DerWulf! Thanks for the welcome! Lots of people have responded and been very nice. Thank god I escaped that teen hell!

What exactly about Iraq are you interested in? I admit, *hangs head in shame* I am not read up on the situation over there as I should be.

I was reading about gun control in here, and there are some good conversations going on.

And why did you ever give up the bikes? I couldn't breathe if I couldn't ride, maturity be damned! Haha...

So, again, thanks for the welcome! Happy New Year to you!

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:53 pm

No fears.. I remember the Tricky Dicky days.. ouch.. . yep.. you can take that term with a large grain of salt. Personally, I am never growing up. Bikes .. yep.. but it has been a long time.. last ride.. old Norton Commando... sigh.. never shudda let that one go.....

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:18 pm

BabyRider, hello, What areas or subjects are you looking for a "GOOD" debate about? You are a woman hunter and ride motorcycles? There is something for evreyone right here, stick around. :driving:

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:37 pm

Just noticed the Michigan location, lived there 30+ years, Oceana county.

Yeah, I'd still be out on the bike if I could, unfortunatly my "wheels" now have a chair and electric motor, took the safety wheels off the back so I can wheelie, tried a mud run, mud won. Got the knoby tires, thinking about upgrading to at least 500cc [gotta find some way to get the sound, but not let wulfess hear it].

guess it just proves that you can take the old man off the bike, but you can't take the bike out of the old man:D

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:47 pm

Hi BabyRider ~ welcome to the forum... so what is your unpopular position on gun control? let us know so we can start smacking you around

ermmm.... I mean debating!

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:53 pm

BabyRider wrote: Hello everyone. I just joined up here last night, read the post about Animal Planet, replied, and thought I'd say howdy.

Anyone here ride motorcycles? How about hunting? Those are two of my all-time favorite things to do, and I'd like to hear from anyone who shares those interests.

I'm also a mom, a bartender, just got engaged, (planning a wedding, any tips out there???), and I love to debate and discuss all kinds of things.

Funny thing, I somehow found myself on the site called "Bolt" and after poking around, found a discussion on gun control, one of my passions. I started to post some replies, and found out my opinion wasn't very popular. That didn't bother me so much, and I soon realized, it was a teen forum. There is nothing in the home page to give a clue to that, and I'm wondering if this is the same thing here. Any slightly older folks here? I'm 34, and don't have a whole lot of patience for being told I'm an idiot by people who aren't old enough to vote yet. (haha). So, I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone! Happy New Year, all!
Im not a teenager... I was a motorcycle instructor for Suzuki in the 70's. Rode myself over quite a bit of The United States, Canada, and Nova Scotia. The gun thing is not my thing.. Lived with a hunter for 6 years in Virginia, and I abhor hunting. But you know " Live and let Live" I could make an exception , and make believe I loved it... If I bumped int Daniel Day Lewis, Lived in the days of Last of the Mohicans, and could have just one night out in the mountains with him. Id even accept him running around in that loin cloth, carrying his BIG GUN. ha ha ha

I plan weddings for a living..... Have had a couple myself..... Ive been having a lot of fun on the Forum here. Hope you do also. Howdy Weeder

CVX · Post by **CVX** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:12 pm

BabyRider wrote: Hello everyone. I just joined up here last night, read the post about Animal Planet, replied, and thought I'd say howdy.

Anyone here ride motorcycles? How about hunting? Those are two of my all-time favorite things to do, and I'd like to hear from anyone who shares those interests.

I'm also a mom, a bartender, just got engaged, (planning a wedding, any tips out there???), and I love to debate and discuss all kinds of things.

Funny thing, I somehow found myself on the site called "Bolt" and after poking around, found a discussion on gun control, one of my passions. I started to post some replies, and found out my opinion wasn't very popular. That didn't bother me so much, and I soon realized, it was a teen forum. There is nothing in the home page to give a clue to that, and I'm wondering if this is the same thing here. Any slightly older folks here? I'm 34, and don't have a whole lot of patience for being told I'm an idiot by people who aren't old enough to vote yet. (haha). So, I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone! Happy New Year, all!

Welcome BabyRider! We have the whole mix here. I think the average age is in the 30's to 40's from what I can tell. No kiddies here. yet!

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:20 pm

Welcome, I'm fairly new here myself and I'm one of the ones in their 40's. Never rode a motorcycle, but I'm interested in a wide variety of things to debate over. :guitarist

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:24 pm

Hey Paula! I just like to discuss things...almost anything. It's a good way to learn other peoples perspectives on things. Never too late to learn about anything, right?

And I hope to meet other female hunters, too. Not very many of us out there, especially those who hunt with a bow! Thanks for the welcome!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:30 pm

Hi Cassie! How'd you do that cool thing with your signature?

My unpopular position on gun control is that the term should only mean being proficient with your weapon. I grew up around guns, have been shooting for years and really love it. I own guns for hunting, target shooting and home protection and have been called 18 different kinds of a nut case because of it! I've seen people in here who have a much more open minded view of the subject than the other forum I was in. It's refreshing. So, let the slapping around begin! (haha). And thanks for the welcome!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:33 pm

Am I doing this wrong? Responding to each individual thread? HELP!!! Any tips to make this simpler would be welcome! I'm just kind of fumbling around blindly, guessing at the best way to do things. If I annoy anyone, let me know how to do it better!

Rachel, I have a feeling you and I will agree on most things concerning pets!

Everyone has been really great, thanks so much for the welcomes, everyone!

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:54 pm

BabyRider wrote:

My unpopular position on gun control is that the term should only mean being proficient with your weapon.
So how do you propose people become proficient with their weapon? I am assuming you just practiced and practiced, maybe out in the country with targets on trees or tin cans on fences?

How do people in the inner city learn to be proficient safely? take courses? perhaps manditory?

I am not a supporter of the public having guns... I think hunting is cruel, people want guns for crime & status more than protection.

So many tragic accidents with children and guns. If I had my way no one would have them but police and anyone caught with one would be heavily fined on first offence and jailed the next time.

Okay - I have my bulletproof suit on.... blast me!!!

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:26 pm

BabyRider wrote: Hello everyone. I just joined up here last night, read the post about Animal Planet, replied, and thought I'd say howdy.

Anyone here ride motorcycles? How about hunting? Those are two of my all-time favorite things to do, and I'd like to hear from anyone who shares those interests.

I'm also a mom, a bartender, just got engaged, (planning a wedding, any tips out there???), and I love to debate and discuss all kinds of things.

Funny thing, I somehow found myself on the site called "Bolt" and after poking around, found a discussion on gun control, one of my passions. I started to post some replies, and found out my opinion wasn't very popular. That didn't bother me so much, and I soon realized, it was a teen forum. There is nothing in the home page to give a clue to that, and I'm wondering if this is the same thing here. Any slightly older folks here? I'm 34, and don't have a whole lot of patience for being told I'm an idiot by people who aren't old enough to vote yet. (haha). So, I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone! Happy New Year, all!

Welcome to FG BabyRider! I love motorcycles, but am active only offroad. We have more offroad vehicle roads in this state than paved! Are you a dirt or pavement rider?

I don't think we have any teens at FG. (Who actively post.) Who can correct me?! Anyways, I'm about 9 years older than you and live in a pro-hunting, pro-gun, pro-property, and states-rights state - like Michigan!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:06 pm

I am proficient with my weapon because I practice, yes. But also because I learn about the weapons that I own. There is more to responsible gun ownership than just being a good shot. There's a responsibility to your children, to the public, and the laws that govern ownership. And no, I don't go out in the country and shoot at tin cans...who knows who or what is walking around in my line of fire?

As far as living in the city, there are plenty of places to go practice. There is an indoor range right down the street from my house. And I have also taken classes. It's required where I live when you have a CCW.

And why do you think hunting is cruel? Are you aware that even with the million and a half deer we take every year in Michigan alone, there are still deer dying of starvation and being hit by cars because there are so many of them? In our country, there are 4,000 deer/vehicle accidents every DAY. That's deer being maimed and killed along with the people who are injured when they hit them. Can you agree that the deer population needs to be controlled? Because it seems to me that if hunting were banned altogether, there would be at least 1,000,000 and 1/2 more deer dying every year here in this state alone. (I can get you where I got that stat, if you like.)

As far as your opinion that people want guns for crime and status, in some cases, unfortunately, that is true. Not in mine, however. I have no intention of committing a crime, and status just dosen't mean that much to me. Not to mention the fact that most criminals obtain their guns illegally, and would continue to do so , even if ALL guns were banned.

And it is tragically true that there are many accidents involving children and guns. And I believe that most of those could have been prevented by educating the OWNER of the gun. Children need to be taught a respect for guns, as I have taught mine, but ultimately the responsibility for keeping kids safe should always fall to the parents. And if everyone would be as concerned with getting guns out of the hands of the criminals as they are with taking away guns from the law-abiding citizens, we'd be a lot farther ahead of the game. Because the criminals will get them no matter what. Those of us who work within the law to have them are the ones who would suffer.

By the way, I'd still like to know how you did that with your signature!

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:56 pm

I will have to agree with the deer issue. I am an extreme animal lover, but I see dozens and dozens of deer on the sides of the road every trip I go on. I travel a lot since I show dogs and I've had two friends in the last year who on dog show trips hit deer. Not only is it horrible, it's a waste of potential food and it put two fellows in the hospital and killed two very nice Airedale terriers. My other friend totalled her van, but was unhurt. My father is a bowhunter too. In the 60's he was the state champion Archer in Delaware. I used to shoot targets with the bow till I broke a string and it came within 1/4" of my eye and I've been spooked ever since. My father has gotten several deer with his bow though. It seems that there should be something that is a compromise about the gun issue though. I was nearly shot by my brother at 15 because he was in a fit of rage when I tripped him. Had my mother not arrived home at that exact instant, I probably wouldn't be writing this. I've never wanted a gun in my home because of that. My concern over guns is more along the line of the number of crimes of passion committed with them, more than actual criminal acts like bank robbery or the like. Couldn't there be a test like you have to have for driving for gun ownership and requirement for safe storage, away from angry teenagers or children? Would that be impossible to enforce or is it too much red tape?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:16 pm

I do believe that there should be some regulation to obtaining a gun. Even some difficulty. It should not be something that you can walk in and buy over the counter if you have a few extra bucks. I do not believe that just anyone is capable enough or responsible enough to own guns. And I can understand your wariness after your experience, but here's another view: For several years I was in a violent relationship. It ended with him holding a rifle to my head. It would have ended sooner but fear kept me where I was. (THAT is a whole other discussion.) When I had the barrel of that rifle against my head, believing it was all over for me, I told myself that if I made it out alive, no one would ever be able to scare me like that again. Someone was listening because the gun misfired. (A perfect example of someone who should NEVER have had a gun.) The next week, I was out taking my CCW course. Now, if someone threatens my life, I have the means and the ability to protect myself and my family. Please don't get me wrong, I have never pointed any of my weapons at another human being, and I hope I never have to. But I refuse to be a victim again.

That lunatic who did that to me is still out there. He stalked me for years. The police are incapable of protection. Has anyone noticed that the slogan "To protect and serve" has been eliminated from police agencies? It's because they have realized they CAN'T protect us. They can only investigate, arrest and hopefully (though not always) charge a person with a crime AFTER the crime has been committed. Sadly, it's up to us to protect ourselves. I wish it wasn't that way. If it were, then my guns would be for target shooting and hunting only. And if you aren't comfortable with guns, then by all means, don't own them. I'm just happy that our Constitution allows us the choice.

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:24 pm

BabyRider wrote:

And why do you think hunting is cruel? Are you aware that even with the million and a half deer we take every year in Michigan alone, there are still deer dying of starvation and being hit by cars because there are so many of them? In our country, there are 4,000 deer/vehicle accidents every DAY. That's deer being maimed and killed along with the people who are injured when they hit them. Can you agree that the deer population needs to be controlled? It is cruel because hunters bag them for sport... not sympathy - and they take pleasure in it.

IMO killing an animal through a telescopic site is not sport (unless the deer has a gun too and can fire back)

Starvation is how populations are controled, it happens and it is sad, but it is nature, nature regulates itself and thins out the herds.

Alternatively, society could try and feed and sustain the animals by placing browse in the habitate (I can explain this further if you do not know what I mean)

or

tranquilize the animals and relocate them. Yes it would be a costly & complicated undertaking but it sure beats good ol' boys out blowing them away for fun.

Back to guns... how much do target ranges cost to participate? do you use your own weapon or ones that are supplied? I am asking as people from all walks of life may have weapons and some may not have the luxury of affording practice sessions when they have 4 kids to feed.

Signature.... ancient chinese secret!!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:25 pm

To Tombstone: Thank you for the welcome! We ride on pavement, though I'd like to try some off road stuff! And do you actively participate in your liberties in the state where you live?

I am really impressed with the discussion here, no one gets uppity and "I'm-so-politically-correct" right off the bat. I guess that's what I get for dealing with 17-year olds. I knew absolutely everything at that age, too. I imagine things get heated here too, but at least I haven't been called a paranoid angry idiot drunk because I own guns! (haha).

I look forward to talking to people here. Happy New Year.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:58 pm

Ok, where to start? Hunting IS a sport. It takes practice, knowledge of many factors, and even a little luck. And I do take pleasure in it. If it wasn't pleasureable, I wouldn't do it. There is something satisfying in patterning your deer, finding out it's habitats, learning about it's range and outsmarting it. Because let me tell you, hunting is NOT easy! It is a year-round endeavor, if you want to be successful. And the money hunters spend on licenses and equipment go towards conservation. Your propositions, while very heartfelt are simply not feasible. How do you propose to plant enough browse to feed a million deer? And who is going to pay for just the manpower it would take to tranquilize a million deer? And where would you put them? Part of the problem is the deer are losing their habitats as people move into their ranges. They are being squeezed into smaller and smaller areas, but still reproducing every spring. Relocation and trying to feed all of them is simply an impossible idea. Not to mention the fact that even with all the deer that are harvested, they are STILL dying. It is a proven fact that herds controlled by hunting are healthier. They don't spread TB as easily, and they aren't weak from limited or inadequate food sources. As far as your "good ol boys" comment, this is another common misconception about hunters. Every hunter I have ever known or met, is ethical. By ethical I mean that a) they eat what they kill. b) they NEVER poach (hunt without a license, take illegal animals, or shoot out of season) c) never take a chancy shot, and d) frown on and discourage anyone who does different. I would never kill an animal I didn't intend to eat. That is just wasteful. And again, hunting is good for the herd as a whole, it's good for conservation efforts and it's good for the economy. Believe it or not, Cassie, I am an animal lover to the core. Hell, I was a vet tech! If I didn't believe it was actually beneficial to the deer as a whole, as a species, I would never do it!

As far as your question about ranges and prices, my particular range charges based on time spent, or you can "purchase" an entire day of shooting. It's about $6 an hour, and $9 for all day. Outdoor ranges are a bit more expensive, (more upkeep on the property) but many of them (in my area at least) have a day once a month or so where anyone can come in and shoot for free. And my indoor range has guns that can be rented if someone just wants to tear up a target. I don't reccommend that method, however, because you never know how other people take care of their weapons, and even if they are well cared-for, each gun is different, handles different, shoots different, etc. You can't really become familiar with a gun if it's not the same one all the time. You can get lots of interesting facts at nra.org. (The National Rifle Association).

Not givin' on the signature, huh? Well, it looks cool anyway! I was so distracted by how that looked, I just now noticed your tagline...Hysterical!!!

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:15 pm

BabyRider wrote: To Tombstone: Thank you for the welcome! We ride on pavement, though I'd like to try some off road stuff! And do you actively participate in your liberties in the state where you live?

I am really impressed with the discussion here, no one gets uppity and "I'm-so-politically-correct" right off the bat. I guess that's what I get for dealing with 17-year olds. I knew absolutely everything at that age, too. I imagine things get heated here too, but at least I haven't been called a paranoid angry idiot drunk because I own guns! (haha).

I look forward to talking to people here. Happy New Year.

Usually, the gun issue gets people pretty hot. It's great, however, that we get perspectives from the UK as well on this issue. Very different experience and perspective there and it took me a few days to understand it.

Take a minute and check out the "Gun Control" thread under the General Politics area. It's a long, good thread.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:26 pm

I actually found that earlier. I didn't have time to read through all of it, but I plan to. It is strange, the different perspectives. And I suppose whichever way you are accustomed to, is what you see as the norm.

The gun issue definitely gets me fired up! And I seem to keep coming across people who have had bad experiences with them, or only take what they see in the media into account. Just like airplane crashes. You don't hear about all the thousands of flights that take off and land SAFELY. Just like the hundreds of thousands of gun owners who go their entire lives without a mishap. All you hear about is the bad stuff.

Sorry, I'm preaching again. You didn't ask to get into the gun debate. But I'm going to leave it anyway, for others who come passing by...

LottomagicZ4941 · Post by **LottomagicZ4941** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:25 am

"If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson."

LOL I'm in the gun debait also on a teen forum. I'll be quoting you:)

I support the rights of others to have guns but I am such a poor shot I am against me actually having one.

My version of motorcycle safety is to stay off of them.

Lotto

http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-local/ ... elcome-344

MagicZ4941

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:25 am

As a woman with your hobbies, i would not want to make you mad? I thought i was one of the guys here, you have me beat by miles...I am afraid of guns, i don't need one,i admire watching motorcycles and their styles and make, but they are too dangerous for me? We are too occupied of people to hop on a bike and rip the world up? You are one busy woman!~Daring as hell. I wouldn't call you a BabyRider, but an EasyRider, Lady-Cop where are you now? Welcome to FG, you seem to have much to talk about...cheerio for now!!Please don't shoot me?

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:29 am

BabyRider wrote: Ok, where to start? Hunting IS a sport. It takes practice, knowledge of many factors, and even a little luck. And I do take pleasure in it. If it wasn't pleasureable, I wouldn't do it. There is something satisfying in patterning your deer, finding out it's habitats, learning about it's range and outsmarting it. So lets say today... you are at the supermarket, quietly shopping, going about your business, squeezing a canteloupe to check for freshness when you suddenly have a funny feeling, your hair stands up on the back of your neck... unknown to you a half mile away, someone has a site rifle trained on your head and is about to kill you, because they enjoy watching and following you, stalking you, outsmarting you... and they take will pleasure in ending your life, they practice and think about doing it all year round. They can't wait to play god and blow you away.

The only difference in this scenario is that you are a human and not a deer.

Everything you have described regarding your feelings of hunting can be accomplished without actually killing the animal. Follow them, track them, outsmart them, site them ~ then click the shutter of a camera instead of the trigger of a high powered (unsportsmanlike) rifle.

You want a sport? try going in and killing them with your bare hands - the deer would kick your ass. IMO cowards hide behind their fancy guns and call it hunting. slap each other on the backs and congratulate each other on their big success.

BabyRider wrote:

How do you propose to plant enough browse to feed a million deer? And who is going to pay for just the manpower it would take to tranquilize a million deer? And where would you put them?

You don't feed or move a million deer, you let nature take it's course and thin the herds naturally...

The browse is not planted in their habitat... it is grown elsewhere, farmed and contolled, planted and harvested sequentially so that it is always available in a rotating bases.... the browse is placed/dropped in the deers habitat, this is done on game reserves around the world - it controls the animals movements because they learn where the browse will be dropped or placed and they do not wander on to highways & into home surveys.

Of course this makes them a sitting duck for hunters. :rolleyes:

BabyRider wrote: Cassie, I am an animal lover to the core.

Sure you are!!! you love to kill them

Save us from that mean old Baby Rider!!!

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:41 am

My feelings exactly. Hunters give you all that talk about the population being over run... Blah Blah Blah. I used to go up to properties in the Shenendoah Valley at 6;30 am to start landscaping early and beat the heat. There would be 6 0r 7 white tailed deer leaping across the front lawn. What a sight to never be forgotten. Reaffirmation of life. As with all of lifes outlooks, the hunter is indicitive of a particular personality type, not my type. But then as with all things that is what makes the world go round. My outlook regarding people who are into guns would incite a riot, and pretty much isolate me from many of the posters. So I will just keep it to myself. I will say that I compromised my principals once because I

loved a man who unfortunately enjoyed guns. It definately didnt work. And I am ashamed to have attempted it and relieved that it is over.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:56 am

I think BabyRider uses a bow to hunt? It is her right to do her thing, people get upset about animal killing, i don't like it either. Guns, are kept in an outbuilding here, we have young grandchildren, so they are out of reach. THats why there is The DEP, you call them and they handle the matter, if in fact animals are being murdered for no reason. This is certainly good debate material, just as touchy as Gay Rights, i wasn't there and i didn't do it.....

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:58 am

Well.. first of all any hunter that uses a bait to drawn in his target is not a hunter. That is a tactic used by peusdo hunters because they don't know any better. And as far as the browse being planted.. I have yet to go into the woods here and see a nicely tended patch of deer browse. Perhaps on a game reserve but again.. those are not hunters... and any trophy hunter is not worth the time or effort to describe here. I despise trophy hunters, and you will find that most people that seriously hunt do. Many hunters I know do so to put food on the table for themselves and thier family... not to tack a head on the wall. The majority are conservation minded, environmentally friendly people. They appreciate the outdoors, respect it and appreciate the wildlife they find there.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:02 am

Just a sideline, out of curiousity, are you (who don't want hunting allowed) vegetarians? What is your opinion of eating cows. Cows are cute and they are taught to trust us, then we eat them. Is that wrong too or is it different somehow? Don't you think part of how nature thins the herd is by the food chain. I only think hunting is the right thing when the game is going to be eaten. Trophy hunting is morbid and weird to me. Having the head of something on the wall is pretty gross, but using something for food to me seems like part of nature. God gave us the brains to create hunting tools, just like he gave all animals their defenses. :-6

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:09 am

greydeadhead wrote: And as far as the browse being planted.. I have yet to go into the woods here and see a nicely tended patch of deer browse. Hi dgh ~ the browse is not grown in the habitat.... it is dropped in to the habitate / farmed elsewhere.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:12 am

ahhh... so you mean like dropping hay bales and such from helicopters. Nope that is not done in the woods, atleast not around here. Are you perhaps describing the game reserves that charge to hunt. That is not hunting.. that is trophy hunting, an unacceptable practice in my mind. Besides that is not browse.. that is baiting. Browse is the natural food supply used by the animal.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:22 am

rachelg wrote: Just a sideline, out of curiousity, are you (who don't want hunting allowed) vegetarians? What is your opinion of eating cows. Cows are cute and they are taught to trust us, then we eat them. Is that wrong too or is it different somehow? Don't you think part of how nature thins the herd is by the food chain. I only think hunting is the right thing when the game is going to be eaten. Trophy hunting is morbid and weird to me. Having the head of something on the wall is pretty gross, but using something for food to me seems like part of nature. God gave us the brains to create hunting tools, just like he gave all animals their defenses. :-6

Once in awhile a cow is butchered for meat. My cows are for landscape purposes. We had one a few years ago that had her horns growing into her head, so that explains why she is gone? We sell to breeders as we exchange animals, we are like a foster home for cows? Unfortunate ones come here to get healthy and graze with the others? We buy our beef products at the local market, our cows are here because I love them.

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:30 am

greydeadhead wrote: ahhh... so you mean like dropping hay bales and such from helicopters. Hi there - I am answering BabyRiders challenge on how to deal with a starving population. As is done already on game reserves around the world, (so we know it is successful) the natural food of the animal in questions is farmed and then in seasons where starvation is at risk, dropped in the habitat. I am not talking hay bales here.

I don't know if there is any program such as this in place with the deer in the US. I do feel the state has a responsibility to assist the animals, define natural boundries where no further razing and buiding of the land is permitted. Humans are encrouching on their habitat and society has to ensure their survival.

Licensing trigger happy hunting parties to get their jollies is no solution in my book.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:37 am

Paula wrote: Once in awhile a cow is butchered for meat. My cows are for landscape purposes. We had one a few years ago that had her horns growing into her head, so that explains why she is gone? We sell to breeders as we exchange animals, we are like a foster home for cows? Unfortunate ones come here to get healthy and graze with the others? We buy our beef products at the local market, our cows are here because I love them.
When we had cows we only actually ate one that we knew, only because she accidentally broke her neck, so we made the best of a bad situation. I prefer getting beef from the market so I didn't know them too. We raised calves that we sold to the market, and while I'm sure some went for beef, we avoided eating our own.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:40 am

but isn't assisting the animals contrary to the laws of nature. I mean there are bad winters, where the winter kill is extensive.. and soft winters, where the winter kill is very light. I do agree that conservation areas must be designated and sprawl halted. In fact you will find the many hunters will agee with you on this.

Anyway.. I can see we will continue to have differing views on this topic. That is the beauty of these forums... but.. defining all hunters as trigger happy hunting parties getting their jollies by blasting wildlife is like calling all conservationists/environmentalists tree huggers out to save the jackalope from extinction..

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:32 am

RANTING, common sense please, animals are animals not people. Focus on the next problem, next? Isn't my monkey cute :-6 ?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:57 am

Its funny you know... I cannott bear to think of BAMBI being gunned down in the woods by some frightening human in that horrible camoflauge clothing..... Any yet

I will not live with a dog. Having to clean up their steaming loads... drewling all over the furniture..... spraying like a nut trying to cover the smells up with FEBREEZE!!!!!!!!!! You know that horrible smell is still there. And no I do not think that the monkee is cute. He looks like he is just waiting for the opportunity to pull my hair, screech like a wildman and swing from the chandeliers. I like the adorable Avatar that Love my Cat Has.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:00 am

Cute monkey, but not as cute as my little Claudia! Ok, the other side of the gun issue - using a gun for protection. I'm not a policewoman, but I would think other than in cases of attempted murder, that would get you into trouble. I have a friend whose husband shot a thief in the leg whilst he was attempting to hot-wire their van. The thief brought a lawsuit against him for pain, suffering, and permanent damage (he had a limp). It was an expensive and drawn out court case and the lawyer costed far more than the van the thief was trying to steal. In such cases wouldn't it make more sense to call the police and even if they didn't get the van back, insurance would pay for it. It would have saved money and major stress on his and his family's part. As for protecting yourself against a murderer, it would take a cool head to come out on top of that. I'd more likely end up being one of those cases where someone gets killed with their own gun.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:14 am

weeder wrote: I will not live with a dog. Having to clean up their steaming loads... drewling all over the furniture..... spraying like a nut trying to cover the smells up with FEBREEZE!!!!!!!!!! You know that horrible smell is still there. And no I do not think that the monkee is cute. He looks like he is just waiting for the opportunity to pull my hair, screech like a wildman and swing from the chandeliers. I like the adorable Avatar that Love my Cat Has.

Oh! Cats don't have any objectionable habits or drawbacks then?

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:16 am

Cat poop smells ten times as bad as dog poop!

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:25 am

greydeadhead wrote: but.. defining all hunters as trigger happy hunting parties getting their jollies by blasting wildlife is like calling all conservationists/environmentalists tree huggers out to save the jackalope from extinction..
Well, like I said in an earlier post of mine... if the thrill is in the hunt, the thrill of the chase, the tracking, the outsmarting, the stalking and planning - then you can get all that and not actually kill the animal. I don't care what the hunter says.. the thrill is in taking it's life - not the other things the use as excuses for enjoying it.

They enjoy killing.... not a good characteristic IMO

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:28 am

weeder wrote: I like the adorable Avatar that Love my Cat Has.
Thanks

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:59 am

For Paula: Thanks for the welcome! I do like "life on the edge", so to speak. There's a quote (can't remember who said it right now), but it goes "Death is more universal than life. Everyone dies, not everyone truly lives." I live by that. And you're right! I do like to talk about a lot of things....looks like I started a wildfire in here...wow! Thanks again for the welcome.

For Cassie: There is a big difference: There is no hatred or malice in hunting, and it's not illegal, where as murder is. You have this misconception about hunting and hunters, and nothing I say will ever change your mind. It would have to be something like, a family member dying in a car crash with a deer to change your mind. And yes, I do love to kill deer. And I won't apologize for it. If you do a little research into it, you will find that if all hunting were banned, more deer would suffer needlessly. I AM an animal lover. That is not a point I am willing to argue with you. Just because you "see" hunting as cruel, dosen't mean it is.

I don't use a high-powered rifle, mostly I use my bow. Which means I have to get within 15 or 20 yards of the deer. Believe me Cassie, the deer has a real good chance of getting away. As for playing "God", if you read your Bible, you will find that God gave us the animals as a food source. And mankind has always adapted the world around him to fit his needs. Do you eat meat? Have you ever seen a slaughterhouse? A bunch of glazed-over cows, standing around in a pen up to their knees in feces waiting to get a nail driven into their head by a nail gun. I have seen that. You should go take a look. THAT is inhumane.

And it was your plan to tranquilize and relocate or feed all the deer. And as for your plan to plant the browse? Who is going to contribute the land to plant all that food? You're talking about the million and a half deer we take just in Michigan that would need to be fed, year round. And game reserves? Anyone who hunts on a reserve is not a hunter. Baiting is a no-no, too. That's target practice, not hunting.

Your last post talked about the state's responsibility to the animals. Where do you think the money for those programs comes from? It comes from the purchase of hunting licenses, and equipment. Are you going to buy or donate the land needed to feed all the deer? Do you have any idea how much land that is? It's a silly idealistic notion and has no basis in practicality or even reality.

Taking the car/deer crashes a step further: 4,000 crashes a day, right? That comes out to 200 human deaths a year, 16,000 hospitalizations, and property and insurance claims into the BILLIONS. I can post where I got these figures if you like, but have a feeling it won't make a dent in your opinion. And that's fine. You have your opinions and I have my facts. And please, people, I am not trigger happy. It is just another stereotype regurgitated by the mis-informed.

Greydeadhead: You are absolutely right. No hunter worth his/her salt would "hunt" on a reserve or bait. That is an unacceptable practice, and it gives all hunters a bad name.