OK I've had enough, having stated on this forum many times that I am basicaly against the DP I have had a change of heart.
My personal rubicon has been fuelled by two recnet events, the shooting of the woman police officer. It was a pure cold blooded execution no more no less, regardless of the incompetence of the chief constable (another story altogether) the police officer stood no chance. We already have gun prohibition, it's not enough. A simple message, carry a gun, use it to kill someone in a crime and you will face capital trial for your life.
This week the killers of a wealthy London resident (you can google the story) were on trial. the 9 year old daughter of this man described how she saw her "daddy" covered in blood as well as her mother and called 999 (Uk 911). One of the defendants has had the unusual distinction of having his previous record told to the court. he was living in a bail hostel at the time and had served 12 years for attempted murder and robbery. These animals stabbed this father and husband to death in front of his wife and 9 year old daughter!!
So I am no longer willing to sit on the fence, bring it back and use it, we have banned guns (I had to surrender my own legally held weapons), it is not working.
In addition challenge the European Court ruling that says we cannot extradite killers wanted by countries who exercise the DP.
This is not a rant i have considered this carefully, reading the account of the little girl in court just affected me more deeply than I could have imagined.
Death Penalty UK
Death Penalty UK
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Death Penalty UK
this post inexplicably doubled, please respond on this thread and ignore the other.
Death Penalty UK
I don't and will never support the death penalty.
We need harsher terms of imprisonment for serious crimes yes, where life means life.
And not to be locking poor buggers up who haven't/cannot pay their council tax. I mean WTF?
We need harsher terms of imprisonment for serious crimes yes, where life means life.
And not to be locking poor buggers up who haven't/cannot pay their council tax. I mean WTF?
Death Penalty UK
this is case Bothwell references.
City banker widow 'was paralysed'
John Monckton and his wife were attacked in their home
The widow of a City banker was paralysed and stopped breathing after she was stabbed during a robbery at her family home, the Old Bailey heard.
Homeyra Monckton, 46, was stabbed twice in the back and her husband John was fatally knifed at their Chelsea home in west London in November last year.
Their daughter Isobel, nine, saw her parents soaked in blood and called 999.
Damien Hanson and Elliot White, both 24, deny the murder of Mr Monckton and the attempted murder of Mrs Monckton.
Mr Hanson, of no fixed address, denies robbery while Mr White, from Shepherds Bush, west London, admits the charge. Both deny wounding with intent.
After Isobel called emergency services, police arrived but were unable to get in because she had locked the door and put the chain on, the court heard.
She passed the keys through the letterbox and an officer was eventually able to release the chain.
Pc Roger Wean found Mr Monckton, 49, lying lifeless in the lounge and Mrs Monckton at the foot of the stairs, the court heard.
"He had blood on his chest and was purple. I could not feel a pulse."
Walking stick
Mr Monckton was taken to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital but could not be resuscitated despite emergency surgery.
Richard Horwell, prosecuting, said Mrs Monckton's condition was critical and required emergency surgery to stop massive internal bleeding.
She had been stabbed with such force that a rib fractured, he told the jury.
On Tuesday Mrs Monckton, who is still using a walking stick, took to the witness box and relived the night she and her husband were stabbed. The trial continues.
City banker widow 'was paralysed'
John Monckton and his wife were attacked in their home
The widow of a City banker was paralysed and stopped breathing after she was stabbed during a robbery at her family home, the Old Bailey heard.
Homeyra Monckton, 46, was stabbed twice in the back and her husband John was fatally knifed at their Chelsea home in west London in November last year.
Their daughter Isobel, nine, saw her parents soaked in blood and called 999.
Damien Hanson and Elliot White, both 24, deny the murder of Mr Monckton and the attempted murder of Mrs Monckton.
Mr Hanson, of no fixed address, denies robbery while Mr White, from Shepherds Bush, west London, admits the charge. Both deny wounding with intent.
After Isobel called emergency services, police arrived but were unable to get in because she had locked the door and put the chain on, the court heard.
She passed the keys through the letterbox and an officer was eventually able to release the chain.
Pc Roger Wean found Mr Monckton, 49, lying lifeless in the lounge and Mrs Monckton at the foot of the stairs, the court heard.
"He had blood on his chest and was purple. I could not feel a pulse."
Walking stick
Mr Monckton was taken to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital but could not be resuscitated despite emergency surgery.
Richard Horwell, prosecuting, said Mrs Monckton's condition was critical and required emergency surgery to stop massive internal bleeding.
She had been stabbed with such force that a rib fractured, he told the jury.
On Tuesday Mrs Monckton, who is still using a walking stick, took to the witness box and relived the night she and her husband were stabbed. The trial continues.
Death Penalty UK
i apologize, i have no idea why above post blows the margins.
Death Penalty UK
And not to be locking poor buggers up who haven't/cannot pay their council tax. I mean WTF
How about court fines, speeding fines, child maitainence fines, let's just let them all off, why not, doesnt matter poor sods like me who do pay will pay increases because of these people. Believe me they are the first in the queue for council handouts
Look at any magistates court records and you will see a suprisingly large number of people who don't pay the counciltax, also somehow forget to pay their car tax, insurance TV licence etc, in other words they just dont want to pay, break the law pay the penalty that's it my personal days of tolerance are over
How about court fines, speeding fines, child maitainence fines, let's just let them all off, why not, doesnt matter poor sods like me who do pay will pay increases because of these people. Believe me they are the first in the queue for council handouts
Look at any magistates court records and you will see a suprisingly large number of people who don't pay the counciltax, also somehow forget to pay their car tax, insurance TV licence etc, in other words they just dont want to pay, break the law pay the penalty that's it my personal days of tolerance are over
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Death Penalty UK
Bothwell wrote: How about court fines, speeding fines, child maitainence fines, let's just let them all off, why not, doesnt matter poor sods like me who do pay will pay increases because of these people. Believe me they are the first in the queue for council handouts
Look at any magistates court records and you will see a suprisingly large number of people who don't pay the counciltax, also somehow forget to pay their car tax, insurance TV licence etc, in other words they just dont want to pay, break the law pay the penalty that's it my personal days of tolerance are over
Sorry I should have made myself clearer, I was speaking with reference to a particular case of a vicar who paid his council tax and an increase of which was in keeping of inflation and which he was ableto affordon his measly pention.
He got sent down for 30 odd days.. thats what I mean when I say wtf!
Look at any magistates court records and you will see a suprisingly large number of people who don't pay the counciltax, also somehow forget to pay their car tax, insurance TV licence etc, in other words they just dont want to pay, break the law pay the penalty that's it my personal days of tolerance are over
Sorry I should have made myself clearer, I was speaking with reference to a particular case of a vicar who paid his council tax and an increase of which was in keeping of inflation and which he was ableto affordon his measly pention.
He got sent down for 30 odd days.. thats what I mean when I say wtf!
Death Penalty UK
So in respone tp a question about the death penalty we have to consider a single case of a vicar!!!!
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the straps
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the straps
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Death Penalty UK
No if you read my first post you'll see that I said I don't agree with the death penalty and that serious crimes should be dealt with harshly by longer terms in prison.
Sorry what does the last bit of your post mean?
Sorry what does the last bit of your post mean?
Death Penalty UK
I don't support the death penalty in peacetime, not that I don't think some people deserve it, as they obviously do, but that I don't think we should kill in principal. I completely understand why Bothwell feels the way he does about this and I don't blame him, but when I balance it up, I think we would be damaging our own society if we reintroduced the death penalty. That said, I think that punishments for violent and malevolent crimes are way way too soft, and that a generation of criminals are being brought up that are laughing at our softness. I think judges are in general are too old and are stuck in a 1960s mentality about modern criminals and they should be replaced with younger, more able people.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Death Penalty UK
Bothwell wrote: we have banned guns [....] it is not working.
So I guess that would be 2 changes of heart you've had, Both? :yh_wink
So I guess that would be 2 changes of heart you've had, Both? :yh_wink
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
Death Penalty UK
BabyRider wrote: So I guess that would be 2 changes of heart you've had, Both? :yh_winkhaving a cop for a partner might have had a modicum of influence also. 
we've discussed the issues many times.
we've discussed the issues many times. Death Penalty UK
ArnoldLayne wrote: You've been tightening those straps havent you ? :wah:no, but i am heavily armed. 
Death Penalty UK
I have to type this because I cannot scan the article in a size small enough for the forum.
"I agree with former Met Police chief Sir John Stevens - writing in favour of capital punishment after the shooting of WPC Sharon Beshenivsky - that the death penalty would make a difference.
"However it does not much matter whether it would or not because it isn't coming back and we would do better to ask ourselves what we can do rather than waste time wishing for the impossible.
"I have no interest in capital punishment as a retribution and would never vote for it on such a basis but there is evidence enough that it acts as a deterrent and therefore saves innocent lives.
"In the five years following the abolition of the death penalty, we still collected statistics on the basis of capital and non-capital murder, whereas now we lump all murder together whether it is multiple and premeditated or so intended as to border on manslaughter. During that period the capital rate rose 125 percent.
"I believe therefore that a moral case can be made for having such a penalty available to the courts. But even more interesting were the statistics showing - in that same period - a large rise in the number of instances in which firearms were taken on robberies.
"In addition to the clear statistical evidence was the testimony of criminals that they no longer bothered to frisk each other for arms before setting out on their unlawful enterprises. Until the abolition, if a gun was used in the course of a robbery and a fatality followed then all the perpetrators were liable to be hanged, not just the one who had fired the shot.
"However strong the argument for having a capital penalty available, we must accept that it is not going to happen. One of this Government's first acts was to cede our power on the issue to Europe. Therefore we must ask what we can do.
"First, we need more police visible on the streets. second, we need a strong deterrent when it comes to taking loaded firearms on robberies.
"I am not one of the 'lock 'em up for ever and throw away the key' brigade. Punishment needs to be proportionate and to allow for amendment of life but it must also deter. Imprisonment until death should automatically be awarded to anyone who kills in the course of armed robbery and that includes accomplices present at the event.
"However, we need to go further. We must deter criminals from going armed at all and that means a very large sentence for anyone and his accomplice who takes a loaded gun to a robbery, not just a few years. After all, if you are not intending to shoot your way out of a tight corner why load the gun?
"Third, we need a massive blitz on the drugs culture which causes 80 per cent of all acquisitive crime, 30 per cent of all crime and a large number of "gangland" killings. Mayor Giulliani did it in New York and all we need is the will to do it here but it means zero tolerance in the reality rather than in the Government pronouncement.
"Yes, it will mean more prison places as well as more police but that is vastly better than innocent victims killed on the streets, whether they be police officers who we expect to take huge risks on behalf of the rest of us or any old Bloggs who gets caught up in the mayhem. Behind each is a grieving family for whom the death of the loved one is a whole life sentence."
Ann Widdecombe. Daily Express. Wednesday November 23rd 2005.
I don't agree with everything she says, but for this moment in time in this country's history (and political mish-mash), there are some practical ideas given here.
Seems we should move out of Europe and reclaim our autonomy from it.
"I agree with former Met Police chief Sir John Stevens - writing in favour of capital punishment after the shooting of WPC Sharon Beshenivsky - that the death penalty would make a difference.
"However it does not much matter whether it would or not because it isn't coming back and we would do better to ask ourselves what we can do rather than waste time wishing for the impossible.
"I have no interest in capital punishment as a retribution and would never vote for it on such a basis but there is evidence enough that it acts as a deterrent and therefore saves innocent lives.
"In the five years following the abolition of the death penalty, we still collected statistics on the basis of capital and non-capital murder, whereas now we lump all murder together whether it is multiple and premeditated or so intended as to border on manslaughter. During that period the capital rate rose 125 percent.
"I believe therefore that a moral case can be made for having such a penalty available to the courts. But even more interesting were the statistics showing - in that same period - a large rise in the number of instances in which firearms were taken on robberies.
"In addition to the clear statistical evidence was the testimony of criminals that they no longer bothered to frisk each other for arms before setting out on their unlawful enterprises. Until the abolition, if a gun was used in the course of a robbery and a fatality followed then all the perpetrators were liable to be hanged, not just the one who had fired the shot.
"However strong the argument for having a capital penalty available, we must accept that it is not going to happen. One of this Government's first acts was to cede our power on the issue to Europe. Therefore we must ask what we can do.
"First, we need more police visible on the streets. second, we need a strong deterrent when it comes to taking loaded firearms on robberies.
"I am not one of the 'lock 'em up for ever and throw away the key' brigade. Punishment needs to be proportionate and to allow for amendment of life but it must also deter. Imprisonment until death should automatically be awarded to anyone who kills in the course of armed robbery and that includes accomplices present at the event.
"However, we need to go further. We must deter criminals from going armed at all and that means a very large sentence for anyone and his accomplice who takes a loaded gun to a robbery, not just a few years. After all, if you are not intending to shoot your way out of a tight corner why load the gun?
"Third, we need a massive blitz on the drugs culture which causes 80 per cent of all acquisitive crime, 30 per cent of all crime and a large number of "gangland" killings. Mayor Giulliani did it in New York and all we need is the will to do it here but it means zero tolerance in the reality rather than in the Government pronouncement.
"Yes, it will mean more prison places as well as more police but that is vastly better than innocent victims killed on the streets, whether they be police officers who we expect to take huge risks on behalf of the rest of us or any old Bloggs who gets caught up in the mayhem. Behind each is a grieving family for whom the death of the loved one is a whole life sentence."
Ann Widdecombe. Daily Express. Wednesday November 23rd 2005.
I don't agree with everything she says, but for this moment in time in this country's history (and political mish-mash), there are some practical ideas given here.
Seems we should move out of Europe and reclaim our autonomy from it.
Death Penalty UK
I do believe that there are some instances where the death penalty should be applied. In particular murder in cold blood and especially psychopaths.
On the other hand, I believe in being able to pursue a blood avengeance unless the killer hands themselves in to the police. No one should be allowed to believe that they will get away with murder lightly.
However, for a very long time in this country, money based crimes have imposed longer sentences than murder.
On the other hand, I believe in being able to pursue a blood avengeance unless the killer hands themselves in to the police. No one should be allowed to believe that they will get away with murder lightly.
However, for a very long time in this country, money based crimes have imposed longer sentences than murder.
Death Penalty UK
So I guess that would be 2 changes of heart you've had, Both?
No BR I have never been against enthusiasts aquiring legally held firearms and indeed had quite a collection myself, but it's never been a "right" over here. I handed all mine in and guess what the criminals did not, who would have thought it:D
No BR I have never been against enthusiasts aquiring legally held firearms and indeed had quite a collection myself, but it's never been a "right" over here. I handed all mine in and guess what the criminals did not, who would have thought it:D
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Death Penalty UK
I don't agree with it-most murders are spur of the moment but i do think Life really should be life with no prospect of getting out. Watching your life ticking away on the walls of a prison with no possibility of release is in many ways worse than execution.
Take fred west for example-he managed to kill himself because he preferred death to imprisonment and how big a deterrent do you think the death penalty was to him.
Same with the Moors murderers the death sentence didn't deter them-on the other hand I would never let them out or allow them to publish a book.
Northrn Ireland-would executing IRA and UDA terrorists have helped or given martyrs to the cause? Same with the current crop of terrorists, a pathetic sad git growing old in prison is not as evocative as a dead martyr.
Also there have been a number of cases` recently where the wrong people would have been killed. Our justice system is far from being infallible.
Having said that some of the sentences handed out make a mockery of justice, armed robbery should be automatic life with no prospect of parole.
Mind you i also think people who kill when drunk in a car should be chucked in prison for life as well. A fine and a ban just because you didn't mean to do it are an insult to the victim and make light of taking a life. If you have a car and you drink before driving you made the decision to do so when you were sober.
Early in 2002 the European Court of Human Rights (pictured) made a ruling in the case of another lifer, which set a precedent and overturned the right of the home secretary to impose sentences on prisoners.
I'm sorry but I agree with that decision. The jury decide the guilt or otherwise and the judge determines the sentence-OK I have issues with the kind of sentences handed out but we have a seperate judiciary not controlled by the government for a very good reason. No government should have the right to decide who is guilty and how long they should be held nor should any home secretary have the power to overturn a court's decision. It says a lot about our present govt that they didn't see anythinh wrong with it in the first place.
Take fred west for example-he managed to kill himself because he preferred death to imprisonment and how big a deterrent do you think the death penalty was to him.
Same with the Moors murderers the death sentence didn't deter them-on the other hand I would never let them out or allow them to publish a book.
Northrn Ireland-would executing IRA and UDA terrorists have helped or given martyrs to the cause? Same with the current crop of terrorists, a pathetic sad git growing old in prison is not as evocative as a dead martyr.
Also there have been a number of cases` recently where the wrong people would have been killed. Our justice system is far from being infallible.
Having said that some of the sentences handed out make a mockery of justice, armed robbery should be automatic life with no prospect of parole.
Mind you i also think people who kill when drunk in a car should be chucked in prison for life as well. A fine and a ban just because you didn't mean to do it are an insult to the victim and make light of taking a life. If you have a car and you drink before driving you made the decision to do so when you were sober.
Early in 2002 the European Court of Human Rights (pictured) made a ruling in the case of another lifer, which set a precedent and overturned the right of the home secretary to impose sentences on prisoners.
I'm sorry but I agree with that decision. The jury decide the guilt or otherwise and the judge determines the sentence-OK I have issues with the kind of sentences handed out but we have a seperate judiciary not controlled by the government for a very good reason. No government should have the right to decide who is guilty and how long they should be held nor should any home secretary have the power to overturn a court's decision. It says a lot about our present govt that they didn't see anythinh wrong with it in the first place.
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Death Penalty UK
Bring back the death penalty im totally in favour .
Can go from 0 - to bitch in 3.0 seconds .
Smile people :yh_bigsmi
yep, this bitch bites back .
Smile people :yh_bigsmi
yep, this bitch bites back .