Divine Intervention vs Free Will

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:35 am

chonsigirl wrote: That's Calvinism, Val. Some Churches have that doctrine, others do not. Man has free will to either accept or reject what is offered in the Bible. God may know it ahead of time, but He does not pick out whom He wants or not. It is up to the individual.Where does this come from?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:07 am

chonsigirl wrote: That's Calvinism, Val. Some Churches have that doctrine, others do not. Man has free will to either accept or reject what is offered in the Bible. God may know it ahead of time, but He does not pick out whom He wants or not. It is up to the individual.
Sorry, the last time I wasn't exactly clear with my pronoun, was I?

Is there Biblical reference as to either unilateral Divine Intervention (as I described it) or individual Free Will?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:34 am

Far Rider wrote: Both. One does not exclude the other.

Joseph chose to follow Gods laws. Jacob did not and was corrected for it.

In other words God carrries out his plan wether man goes along with it or not.Then there is no free will. I can relax and stop trying to be good.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:46 am

Far Rider wrote: Both. One does not exclude the other.

One absolutely excludes the other! For God to manipulate me takes away my free will just as surely as the gov't taking my land via imminent domain takes away any illusion of true land ownership. We can pretend, but that's all.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:18 pm

Far Rider wrote:

Nope the choice to agree and go along with it ultimately rest with you and your heart. You can refuse or God can find another... the diference is, you loose out on the blessing of obedience.

Again. I'm not talking about God asking permission:

Accountable wrote: The type of intervention I'm referring to is deliberately placing a person or opportunity in one's life at an opportune time so as to set up a specific situation. Meeting one's soul-mate, for instance; or as the radio guy suggested, killing Thomas Jefferson and John Adams on July 4, 1826 or Teddy Roosevelt before WWII (if I understood that second one right).

I don't mean intervention at one's request, I mean intervening so as to manipulate a situation to accomplish a grand plan. Any intervention of this type - Any! - means free will does not and cannot exist.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:58 pm

Far Rider:-6

I have never knowingly insulted anyone. But you can have it that way if you want. If on the other hand I say something that happens to be the truth and you don't like it well. . .? That being said, I realize that I am not even close to perfect and if I have insulted anyone in a direct and deliberate manner then I do apologize.

How is that a misuse of scripture? First of all the Old Testament must be read and interpreted in light of the New Testament and the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth. Secondly the quotes are taken out of context. If one wants one could quote the appropriate verses and justify just about anything.

In Leviticus we are told that we can stone disobedient children or that it is an abomination to eat shellfish or that it is an abomination to wear clothing made of more then one kind of fabric or fibre.

Anyway, have a nice day.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:13 pm

I don't really know what is going on in this thread but I have to reply to you Ted because I think I am agreeing with you. There are so many scriptures that are misconstrued. My Papoo beat me because he thought all women were born with the original sin and it wa his job to beat the sin out of me before I married.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:15 pm

nvalleyvee:-6

I'm not sure what is going on either but that is life. Thanks for the post.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:18 pm

Ted wrote: nvalleyvee:-6

I'm not sure what is going on either but that is life. Thanks for the post.

Shalom

Ted:-6

So it must be the free will that gives mankind interpretation and difference of opinion.........

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:21 pm

nvalleyvee:-6

I know I've said tsome harsh things about the American administration in the past. Some have taken exception to that. First of all some of what I said came from Americans themselves.

At any rate I have asked to be shown where I was wrong but never got any kind of rebuttal.

I most certainly have nothing against the American people. They love, hurt, bleed etc. just like the rest of us. Generally they are decent folks.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:24 pm

nvalleyvee:-6

That damned free will argument. LOL

Actually I believe that we have total free will. We do have both natural and social as well as physical restraints though.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:15 pm

Ted wrote: nvalleyvee:-6

I know I've said tsome harsh things about the American administration in the past. Some have taken exception to that. First of all some of what I said came from Americans themselves.

At any rate I have asked to be shown where I was wrong but never got any kind of rebuttal.

I most certainly have nothing against the American people. They love, hurt, bleed etc. just like the rest of us. Generally they are decent folks.

Shalom

Ted:-6

HUH??? I thought we were talking spiritual issues. I don't think I've ever replied to you in a political thread.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:04 pm

As promised (post No. 2 in this thread) I am sharing what Krishna told to Arjuna in the battlefield of Kurushetra on theory of Karma (Source - Shri Bhagvad Gita).

Krishna says that people have complete free will to act the way they wish. They have full right on their actions (Karma) but the right to the result of the action is vested in God alone. So, do your Karma and leave the rest to God. God will decide what should be the result of your Karma. The result will be based on your Karma in this and previous births about which you have no rememberance.

Now, every person is faced with countless situations in his day-to-day life. These situations are the result of our Karma in previous and this birth. God has given free will to us, and we should address these situations to turn them in our favour. The record of our Karma is like a bank passbook with credit and debit details. We can improve our credit by doing good Karma.

From above you can see that there is no divine intevention for limiting our free will. In fact, God gives us full freedom to act in any manner we want. If we do good Karma our credit goes up, but if we do bad Karma our credit goes down.

Any queries are welcome.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:34 pm

I have a question. I thought Krishna and Jesus and Mohamed and Mr. I- Ching and any other religions founder were the same kind of prophets on this Earth. A person to give a people hope for the poor amoung us a :-5 future.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:58 am

nvalleyvee wrote: I have a question. I thought Krishna and Jesus and Mohamed and Mr. I- Ching and any other religions founder were the same kind of prophets on this Earth. A person to give a people hope for the poor amoung us a :-5 future.

Krishna was not a religious founder. He did not start any religion. As per Hindu belief He was God and came to help His devotees. In Hinuism, there is no concept of Prophets.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:53 am

Thanks everyone! I'm comfortable (even more than before) about my own free will being real and not some facade.

Suresh, we have a saying similar to your post about karma. You can choose your own actions, but you can't choose the consequences.

This has been and will continue to be a large stone in the foundation of my belief system.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:14 pm

I believe that we not only have free will, but that we have the will to be able to influence all outcomes. God or no God. If there is a God, then I am like the son who has been left to fend for himself, having never seen his father, let alone speak with him.

My knowledge of life provides no answers as to whether God exists or not. Quantum mechanics is an interest of mine, yet it also provides the perfect medium through which God can exert His will. On the other hand, it also provides the perfect medium through which we can exert our own will.

Science has shown that there is no answer to the question whether God exists or not. And to frustrate the scientists, it is not possible to determine whether there was a Big Bang start to the universe or whether the universe always existed.

Wherever I have been in this world, I have made friends readily. But whenever religion is brought up, violence erupts.

There is a truth about the human condition that is obvious to see. To me, religion is just another type of politics and a means to control the individual.

I believe, however, that we have reached a collective awareness whereby we are now ready as a society to move towards spiritual truth. We are more free now than we ever were before to explore our spiritual feelings. And they all lead to one road - oneness, universal wholeness, love, and the ability to get excited about living. These are all things that, at the moment, only children can experience. It is about time that we paved the way for our children to mature fully with these truths, to experience these things as adults.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:33 pm

And to frustrate the scientists, it is not possible to determine whether there was a Big Bang start to the universe or whether the universe always existed.

Just on that one, I am quite sure that it will be possible to confirm the validity of the big bang event with almost 100 percent certainty (100 percent certainty is of course impossible for anything) in the relatively near future, as we already at about 97 percent certain that it is the actual way in which this current and present universe began. Of course this is no way refutes anything that people may beleive about God, or in Suresh's case, Kharma and the sacredness of existence, there is no material way of either proving or disproving these things, so its up to people to make up their own minds on these things as scientists can't provide any help. I for one do believe that there is a divine inspiration behind the universe, and that we as human beings are an important part of that, not absolutly central, but important. I have no proof of that at all, its just an inner conviction about life. Call me a deist if you will, I won't find it insulting.

P.S. Sorry I havn't got round to the quotes or passages people wanted me to refer to in the Bible, I havn't had time to do it properly, and I don't want to make a mess of it, so I won't rush into it.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Galbally, you Deist.

If it is proven that the present universe was created by a Big Bang, then more questions will beg to be answered.

Just to throw something into the religious melee, I was fascinated to find out that the Jewish calendar is very accurate. I quote a Jewish mathematician.

"Even an average value for the lunar cycle is almost impossible to calculate. Since the moon returns to the exact same position vis-a-vis the sun only once every 689,282 years, there are never enough monthly measurements to know where in this "supercycle" an average lies. ... Even if accurate measurements could be taken once a month without fail for 10,000 years, the sample would amount to less than 1.5 percent of the complete supercycle.

"Knowledge of the moon's variability is not itself remarkable, it was known to the Babylonians, too, for example, and they spent much time trying to solve the problem by detailed measurements and statistical calculations. After centuries of effort, they found that 235 lunar months have about the same number of days as 19 solar years. And since there has never been a solution to the so-called three-body problem, there has never been an equation for the moon's orbit, either. (An equation would allow you to predict the cycle on theoretical grounds. With the development of advanced numerical approximation techniques that require high-speed computers, one can now generate a "good-enough" orbital equation. As recently as 1923- before the advent of machine computation - hand-calculated equations used 1,500 terms to arrive at an approximation. Current aproximations use over 6,000 terms.) Because of these complications, scientific estimates for the mean lunar month have inevitably varied, as the handful of samples in the book suggests.

"Nonetheless, through a series of complex calculations, the oral tradition maintained that the average length of a lunar cycle was 29.53059 days - the number that corresponds to the Ramban's figure in the table... "

Suffice it to say that NASA finally, with the aid of computers, came up with the figure of 29.530588 in 1968. Not bad for a 6,000 year old civilization.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:38 pm

OpenMind wrote: Galbally, you Deist.

If it is proven that the present universe was created by a Big Bang, then more questions will beg to be answered.

Just to throw something into the religious melee, I was fascinated to find out that the Jewish calendar is very accurate. I quote a Jewish mathematician.

"Even an average value for the lunar cycle is almost impossible to calculate. Since the moon returns to the exact same position vis-a-vis the sun only once every 689,282 years, there are never enough monthly measurements to know where in this "supercycle" an average lies. ... Even if accurate measurements could be taken once a month without fail for 10,000 years, the sample would amount to less than 1.5 percent of the complete supercycle.

"Knowledge of the moon's variability is not itself remarkable, it was known to the Babylonians, too, for example, and they spent much time trying to solve the problem by detailed measurements and statistical calculations. After centuries of effort, they found that 235 lunar months have about the same number of days as 19 solar years. And since there has never been a solution to the so-called three-body problem, there has never been an equation for the moon's orbit, either. (An equation would allow you to predict the cycle on theoretical grounds. With the development of advanced numerical approximation techniques that require high-speed computers, one can now generate a "good-enough" orbital equation. As recently as 1923- before the advent of machine computation - hand-calculated equations used 1,500 terms to arrive at an approximation. Current aproximations use over 6,000 terms.) Because of these complications, scientific estimates for the mean lunar month have inevitably varied, as the handful of samples in the book suggests.

"Nonetheless, through a series of complex calculations, the oral tradition maintained that the average length of a lunar cycle was 29.53059 days - the number that corresponds to the Ramban's figure in the table... "

Suffice it to say that NASA finally, with the aid of computers, came up with the figure of 29.530588 in 1968. Not bad for a 6,000 year old civilization.

Good post and very interesting, you non-deist you.

I think this goes to show how amazingly good at astronomy the ancient mesopotamians (babalonians or whatever) were at astronomy, it is unquestionable that they were master star gazers and produced star charts, planetary cycles, and such like with an accuracy that was unmatched for millenenia, which is all the more incredible when you realize that they hadn't invented glass so they had no telescopes, just clear middle-eastern skies. The Jewish calander is rekoned to be almost completely based on the Babalonian system, which of course those in Ancient Israel must have been conversant with as they were just over the river! It reminds me of the Greek philosopher (demonstrathenes I think) who was able to determine the spherical nature of the world using the shadows cast by 2 sticks measured at the same time of day in 2 places in northern and southern Egypt. In fact not only did he do this, he used his measurements and some geometry to determine the diameter of the planet, and he wasn't far out either! This was 2,500 years ago! To put that into perspective, the basic and to us, obvious, idea that the world truly was a sphere and not a flat plane was only truly accepted in Europe some time after it had become apparent that Columbus hadn't fallen off the edge of the world into the void on his famous journey to the New World in 1492, 2,000 years later, and then it was still not accepted by everyone. It was only many years after that the circumfrence of the earth was properly measured. As for the Earth going round the sun, the Vatican only apolgized to Galileo (for having accused him of heresy for daring to think such a thing!) in the 1930s!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:16 pm

Far Rider:-6

Excuse me! You are offended by what I post.. I believe this is an open forum. Perhaps I am offended at what you post but I don't make an issue out of it Obviously you resort to ad hominem attacks when you can't refute what others say, expecially if you don't agree.

You indicated that I insult folks. I can tell you that I don't resort to personal attacks or infantile name calling such as "moron". Neat trick. Now it reads "goofball".

I can support everything that I have said with a great deal of scholarly works by many Christian scholars. I stand by what I have posted. Your judgments on my Christian faith are immaterial to me. My church happens to accept my stand.

You don't like my use of "shalom". Gee that's too bad.

May the peace of Christ go with you.

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:20 pm

nvalleyvee:-6

Please don't take offense at what I posted yesterday. I was simply ponting out what may be behind the personal attacks against me. It was not intended to be a reflection on you.

Though with Far Rider's latest post I think I know understand. He is entitled to his opinion but I am not. LOL What a joke!

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:52 pm

Matt 22:34ff.

"When the Parisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered atogether, and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" He said to him "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On These two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

This particular quote is not taken out of context as the context is clearly indicated in verses 34 and 35.

Shalom

Ted:-6

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:15 pm

Galbally wrote: Good post and very interesting, you non-deist you.

I think this goes to show how amazingly good at astronomy the ancient mesopotamians (babalonians or whatever) were at astronomy, it is unquestionable that they were master star gazers and produced star charts, planetary cycles, and such like with an accuracy that was unmatched for millenenia, which is all the more incredible when you realize that they hadn't invented glass so they had no telescopes, just clear middle-eastern skies. The Jewish calander is rekoned to be almost completely based on the Babalonian system, which of course those in Ancient Israel must have been conversant with as they were just over the river! It reminds me of the Greek philosopher (demonstrathenes I think) who was able to determine the spherical nature of the world using the shadows cast by 2 sticks measured at the same time of day in 2 places in northern and southern Egypt. In fact not only did he do this, he used his measurements and some geometry to determine the diameter of the planet, and he wasn't far out either! This was 2,500 years ago! To put that into perspective, the basic and to us, obvious, idea that the world truly was a sphere and not a flat plane was only truly accepted in Europe some time after it had become apparent that Columbus hadn't fallen off the edge of the world into the void on his famous journey to the New World in 1492, 2,000 years later, and then it was still not accepted by everyone. It was only many years after that the circumfrence of the earth was properly measured. As for the Earth going round the sun, the Vatican only apolgized to Galileo (for having accused him of heresy for daring to think such a thing!) in the 1930s!

That's a very interesting observation and a natural conclusion. Unfortunately, last night, I didn't have time to add the following from the same book.

"(Observational astronomy in Judaism was limited to identifying the moment of religiously significant events; it was not oriented toward developing methods of prediction or models of planetary motion.)...

"If not from planetary theory and observation, where does this number - 29.53059 days to the lunar month - come from? This exact value is known without doubt to date back to (at the latest) the first century B.C. (and evidence suggests it is far older than that). Over the years, scholars have suggested that it must simply have been adopted from others in the Mediterranean Basin...

"The problem with these suggestions is that although close, neither the Greek nor the Babylonian value is precisely the same as that used without fail by the Jews. (While the differences seem slight on paper, significant discrepancies accumulate over time.)...

"The ancient answer to all these questions is simply that the Jews did not obtain the length of the lunar month from anyone. Rather, it is said, when God gave Moses the letter-sequence of the Torah, He gave him as well all the necessary explanations as to what was in it and how it was to be used. This included certain "raw Data" (not the number itself) from which the value of the lunar month could be derived. Peculiar as it must seem, this piece of information was of utmost practical significance in the religious life of the new nation, since the identification of the precise times and seasons was chronologically "the first commandment given to all Israel," in that it was established for the coming nation before the transmission of the Torah, on the eve of the Exodus. (See Exodus 11:9 - 12:13. Note that this command is formally codified as such by Maimonides in his greatest work, the Mishne Torah, which firmly established the 613 commands that define Jewish observance to this day.)...

"If there is such a thing as an original "starting date", it would be very useful. With it, the correct long-term average for the lunar cycle could be added month after month to predict the moment of each successive new moon...

"But where could one find such a date - the year, month, day of the week, hour, minute, and the second of the "first" new moon ever? From the scientific point of view the question itself is absurd.

"Nonetheless, the oral tradition maintains that there is such a date. As expected, it looks to the biblical creation account as an explanation. But its particular angle is bound to seem peculiar to anyone not steeped in its methods. The tradition states - counterintuitively - that the first-ever new moon occurred at a specific moment on the sixth morning of creation, when man was created, not when the sun and moon were suspended in the heavens on the fourth day. And it states when this was: exactly at the end of the second hour on the morning of the sixth day of creation (fourtenn hours after sunset of the fifth day)...

"...The oral tradition claims that Moses was given the date and time of the first new moon and that's why the Jews persisted in using 29.53059 for the length of the lunar month, whether surrounding cultures considered it astonomically correct or not."

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:01 pm

OpenMind wrote: That's a very interesting observation and a natural conclusion. Unfortunately, last night, I didn't have time to add the following from the same book.

"(Observational astronomy in Judaism was limited to identifying the moment of religiously significant events; it was not oriented toward developing methods of prediction or models of planetary motion.)...

"If not from planetary theory and observation, where does this number - 29.53059 days to the lunar month - come from? This exact value is known without doubt to date back to (at the latest) the first century B.C. (and evidence suggests it is far older than that). Over the years, scholars have suggested that it must simply have been adopted from others in the Mediterranean Basin...

"The problem with these suggestions is that although close, neither the Greek nor the Babylonian value is precisely the same as that used without fail by the Jews. (While the differences seem slight on paper, significant discrepancies accumulate over time.)...

"The ancient answer to all these questions is simply that the Jews did not obtain the length of the lunar month from anyone. Rather, it is said, when God gave Moses the letter-sequence of the Torah, He gave him as well all the necessary explanations as to what was in it and how it was to be used. This included certain "raw Data" (not the number itself) from which the value of the lunar month could be derived. Peculiar as it must seem, this piece of information was of utmost practical significance in the religious life of the new nation, since the identification of the precise times and seasons was chronologically "the first commandment given to all Israel," in that it was established for the coming nation before the transmission of the Torah, on the eve of the Exodus. (See Exodus 11:9 - 12:13. Note that this command is formally codified as such by Maimonides in his greatest work, the Mishne Torah, which firmly established the 613 commands that define Jewish observance to this day.)...

"If there is such a thing as an original "starting date", it would be very useful. With it, the correct long-term average for the lunar cycle could be added month after month to predict the moment of each successive new moon...

"But where could one find such a date - the year, month, day of the week, hour, minute, and the second of the "first" new moon ever? From the scientific point of view the question itself is absurd.

"Nonetheless, the oral tradition maintains that there is such a date. As expected, it looks to the biblical creation account as an explanation. But its particular angle is bound to seem peculiar to anyone not steeped in its methods. The tradition states - counterintuitively - that the first-ever new moon occurred at a specific moment on the sixth morning of creation, when man was created, not when the sun and moon were suspended in the heavens on the fourth day. And it states when this was: exactly at the end of the second hour on the morning of the sixth day of creation (fourtenn hours after sunset of the fifth day)...

"...The oral tradition claims that Moses was given the date and time of the first new moon and that's why the Jews persisted in using 29.53059 for the length of the lunar month, whether surrounding cultures considered it astonomically correct or not."

Yet another interesting post, but I can't agree with you of course. I don't want to get into these "God" has intervened arguments again, coz its going to go nowhere. But what I would say from a logical viewpoint is why would "God" give the nation of Israel raw astronomical data that enabled them to calculate lunar cycles accuratley (but not precisely, NASA data is better, is God sloppy?), why wouldn't he also let them know, "btw lads, the earth is round, the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, if you run out of wood you can useblack stuff called coal to heat yourselves with?", "oh and be careful of a crowd coming up know as the romans?" I mean if he was going to start letting trade secrets slip, why not give them some really really useful stuff like electricity, or the internal combustion engine, or gunpowder? No, he just gives them a bit of astonomical data, that by chance is very similar to stuff being worked on very hard by the neighbours already? Nah, it doesn't hold water as an argument mate.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:20 pm

Galbally wrote: Yet another interesting post, but I can't agree with you of course. I don't want to get into these "God" has intervened arguments again, coz its going to go nowhere. But what I would say from a logical viewpoint is why would "God" give the nation of Israel raw astronomical data that enabled them to calculate lunar cycles accuratley (but not precisely, NASA data is better, is God sloppy?), why wouldn't he also let them know, "btw lads, the earth is round, the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, if you run out of wood you can useblack stuff called coal to heat yourselves with?", "oh and be careful of a crowd coming up know as the romans?" I mean if he was going to start letting trade secrets slip, why not give them some really really useful stuff like electricity, or the internal combustion engine, or gunpowder? No, he just gives them a bit of astonomical data, that by chance is very similar to stuff being worked on very hard by the neighbours already? Nah, it doesn't hold water as an argument mate.

The reason he gave this information out is so they could observe the various religious events that they were commanded to uphold as a nation. The answer, to me, for the rest of your question is simple. As Israel was God's chosen nation, they needed nothing more. Furthermore, if he did give them all those things, the neighbouring nations would have had even more reason to pillage the Jews. Who knows, though, what would have happened if they did have those things.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:51 pm

OpenMind wrote: The reason he gave this information out is so they could observe the various religious events that they were commanded to uphold as a nation. The answer, to me, for the rest of your question is simple. As Israel was God's chosen nation, they needed nothing more. Furthermore, if he did give them all those things, the neighbouring nations would have had even more reason to pillage the Jews. Who knows, though, what would have happened if they did have those things.

Erm, but if Israel was God's chosen nation, why don't they rule the world? How come he let the Romans destory them, the Nazi's massacre them, the Arabs blow them up? I mean he was a bit tough on them wasn't he? "You must believe in me and nothing else, and pay no attention to those fabulously wealthy non-believers who get all the women and gold and have nice pyramids and temples and who will hate you for ever and always seem to get away with it etc. etc., anyway, I'm going to send me young lad down and he will start a new religion that will come to dominate the Wetsern World, but don't pay any attention to that stuff" Also if Jesus was God's son, and the Jews were his chosen people, why didn't he give them a hint about that before they crucified him and so on?

How come he was very meticulous about them worshipping him on the exact date and time, but didn't bother to mention that he would be paying a visit around 1 A.D.? I mean why would he always seem to be testing them in particualr while ignoring everyone else, only to then make Christian Europeans his chosen people and forget about the Jews? It doesnt make much sense to me?

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:53 pm

Phew.

First - "all scripture is God breathed" written by the hand of man under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

So many people try to interpret the word of God and get hopelessly muddled because it takes the Holy Spirit to show you the truth. Without the Spirit of God the Bible is a manual the devil can (and does) quote.

Israel are God's special people, a prophetic nation inasmuch as they demonstrate spiritual truths. The whole of Israel's history has been a shadow of things. Types of the Messiah, events, everything. The law was given to show men that by their own efforts they cannot achieve or approach God's holiness. Yet God wants salvation for all so He kept saying that a Saviour/Messiah would come who would do away with the Law (the just penalty for sin) taking the sin of all mankind and paying the price.

The passover with the Lord's people protected by the blood of the lamb on the wooden doorposts so that the Destroying Angel would pass them by and not harm them was a type/shadow of the crucifixion. The blood of the Lamb of God (Jesus) on that wooden cross means that for all who accept that sacrifice there is no more law and no more punishment. In the New Covenant (New Testament) "all things are right for you, but not necessarily beneficial".

God expects his people to ask him for mercy on behalf of those outside the Covenant, since through Jesus we may approach Him. I don't think that we're doing a very good job lately since a lot of so-called Christianity is more about things for self than for others, and if we don't "stand in the gap" God's judgements Will come upon the world and people. We get what we deserve.

Israel has promises. The land was given to them by God. They were driven out when they turned their backs on Him ut God promised to one day bring them back, which he did. Israel will never give up that land. If your father gave you something precious, would you let your neighbour take it? No. They will all be brought into the New Covenant when the Messiah returns to fight against their enemies.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:49 pm

ComfortablyNumb wrote: Phew. Phew indeed

First - "all scripture is God breathed" written by the hand of man under the influence of the Holy Spirit. That is just one massive assumption, prove it to me, black and white, or forget it, people get killed over this stuff.

So many people try to interpret the word of God and get hopelessly muddled because it takes the Holy Spirit to show you the truth. Without the Spirit of God the Bible is a manual the devil can (and does) quote. Who decides what the spirit of god is?, that is just an invitation for any chancer to use the bible to get his own way.

Israel are God's special people, a prophetic nation inasmuch as they demonstrate spiritual truths. Which ones? The whole of Israel's history has been a shadow of things. So has every other nation's history, if the Romans had taken on Confusionism as the state religion we wouldn't be having this particular discussion Types of the Messiah, events, everything. The law was given to show men that by their own efforts they cannot achieve or approach God's holiness. Yet God wants salvation for all so He kept saying that a Saviour/Messiah would come who would do away with the Law (the just penalty for sin) taking the sin of all mankind and paying the price. And what is different about the past 2,000 years of history compared to the previous 2,000 BC? except that more people have been killed, more people are alive, and we have nicer cars?

The passover with the Lord's people protected by the blood of the lamb on the wooden doorposts so that the Destroying Angel would pass them by and not harm them was a type/shadow of the crucifixion. The blood of the Lamb of God (Jesus) on that wooden cross means that for all who accept that sacrifice there is no more law and no more punishment. In the New Covenant (New Testament) "all things are right for you, but not necessarily beneficial". "What kind of moral message is that, that seems to imply that everything you do is fine as long as you nod in the big mans direction once in a while?"

God expects his people to ask him for mercy on behalf of those outside the Covenant, since through Jesus we may approach Him. I don't think that we're doing a very good job lately since a lot of so-called Christianity is more about things for self than for others, and if we don't "stand in the gap" That I completely agree with. God's judgements Will come upon the world and people. We get what we deserve. Why would God create imperfect beings such as ourselves, place them in an imperfect world, in the full knowledge that they will sin, and then punish them for being only exactly what he has created?, he can't give us free will and then complain that he didn't forsee the problems, he is God, its ultimately his own fault.

Israel has promises. The land was given to them by God. They were driven out when they turned their backs on Him ut God promised to one day bring them back, which he did. Israel will never give up that land. If your father gave you something precious, would you let your neighbour take it? No. They will all be brought into the New Covenant when the Messiah returns to fight against their enemies. Yeah, tell that to a palestian farmer on the West Bank whose people have lived there for 2,000 years and now have to live in tents in Jordan, because of God's "chosen" people.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:04 pm

Galbally:-6

I am a Christian and yet I am in complete agreement with your last post.

It is my opinion supported by much scholarship that ComfortablyNumb is entrenched in the traditional paradigm of Christianity when in general simply ignores the reality of the world around them and the great scientific discoveries of the modern age.

There is indeed room for Christianity in this world today but it has to be based on the emerging paradigm and not the more ancient one.

The problem is that a lot of fundamentalist Christians cannot or will not make any effor to understand the modern paradigm. Perhaps this is out of fear, and a lack of understanding.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:12 pm

Free will always takes the life of the person. I've had what I thought was divine intervention in my life............I mean really how could I ever have survived. Then I think my little stupid ways of working and working and working got me out......go figure - free will.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:54 pm

Far Rider:-6

Personally I'm sorry that you feel that way. As for shalom, I wouldn't put it theire if I didn't mean it.

Anyway, as you wish.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:01 pm

Ted wrote: Far Rider:-6

Personally I'm sorry that you feel that way. As for shalom, I wouldn't put it their if I didn't mean it.

Anyway, as you wish.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Shalom is your good wish for us all no matter our belief.........

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:06 pm

nvalleyve:-6

Thanks. As a Christian Pluralist such as I am, you are correct in that observation.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:40 am

Just so people know, I am a Catholic, and I'm not here to knock Chritianity, but I don't go in for literal interpretations of the bible. I will admit that I am a big sckeptic, but one thing I won't deny is the fundamental power of Christ's teachings in the New Testament, whether he was the Son of God and rose from the dead, I am not very sure of that, so I'm not much of a believer, but I do think his message was pertinent, and people that truly try and live by those teachings will have better lives than those who just dismiss him. Where I will argue is in things like creationism, and other such "intelligent design" ideas, as I know there is loads of evidence that these ideas are just plain wrong headed, and come from a misplaced devotion to the ideas put forth in the Old Testament, it doesn't mean I disrespect people with these beliefs, I am just quite sure they are wrong in their assumptions and that its right to point out why. I don't particularly either go in for new age stuff either or spirituality, as its too vague, a catch all for everything, and its ideas are too easily interpreted to mean whatever you want them to mean, which I don't find particularly satisfactory. As for Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Taoism, Conficianism, etc etc. I wasn't raised with them, I find them interesting, but I think I will stick with the devil I know rather than the devil I don't.

So I'm a typical Catholic, agnostic, whatever type person I suppose.

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:10 am

I wouldn't call myself a fundamentalist, since I equate that term with inflexibility, but I do believe what God said. Anyone who doesn't believe that the Bible IS the Word of God will undoubtedly disagree with me - that's O.K, I tell people what I believe. I've never seen the Bible as something to use to condemn others or metaphorically beat them about the head with.

Yes, the New Covenant is about freedom but the whole point is that when God sends his Spirit upon you you don't want to do things like murder, rape, steal. God in you leads you to good things. Of course everyone messes up ocassionally but usually not big time.

I have no problem with science, nor with world changes since I don't profess to know all of what God knows.

I live by the spirit of the Word not the total 'everything in the Bible is literal' concept. All of the Bible is given by God for a purpose.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:32 pm

Galbally quote, "...but if Israel was God's chosen nation, why don't they rule the world? How come he let the Romans destory them, the Nazi's massacre them, the Arabs blow them up? I mean he was a bit tough on them wasn't he?" End quote. Etc.

That's a lot of questions. I would need to look them all up in the bible to answer you, but I don't have the time. Perhaps you can do this for yourself. Otherwise, I think that you are baiting me.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy god with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

As for Christianity,

"This is the first and great commandment.

"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

And yet the Catholics and the Anglicans and the Protestants, and every other Christian group have succeeded to do otherwise having turned Christianity into a political playground in which, like the Scribes and the Pharisees before them, they place themselves above their devotees.

I do not subscribe to Christianity, but I do believe in these two commandments from Jesus. They make a hell of a lot of sense. But, by living by these laws, we suffer a great deal by the hands of those who do not.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:10 pm

[QUOTE=OpenMind]Galbally quote, "...but if Israel was God's chosen nation, why don't they rule the world? How come he let the Romans destory them, the Nazi's massacre them, the Arabs blow them up? I mean he was a bit tough on them wasn't he?" End quote. Etc.

That's a lot of questions. I would need to look them all up in the bible to answer you, but I don't have the time. Perhaps you can do this for yourself. Otherwise, I think that you are baiting me.

Of course I am baiting you, there are no answers in the Bible to these questions.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:46 pm

there are no answers in the Bible to these questions.

I haven't read the bible suffiently to be able to say, first hand, whether it does or not. On the other hand, I have read a book which states that the holocaust is mentioned in the Torah. Even that the modern Israel used it to determine the most likely dates that the scud missiles were going to be fired at them during the Gulf War and managed to minimise injuries because of it. Apparently, the missiles were fired only on dates that were on the list. But I can't prove that one either. Ah well, never mind.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:23 pm

Far Rider:-6

My goals are very simple. I am a humble servant and follower of my Lord. I try my best, with God's help to walk in his footsteps Some of my favorite Bible passages are Micah 6:8 where we are told to "Do justice, love kindliness and walk humbly with God.. Matt 22:34ff the great commandment and Matt. 25:31ff where Jeus welcomes all sorts of folks into his kingdom.

I believe in the great possibility of God's kingdom beginning here or earth and into eternity.

I accept the validity of the spiritual foundations of all the major faiths of the world because they all come from the same location.

I hope that I can live in peace and love as a servant of my Lord and leave the world a better place then it was when I entered it. Whatever God has for me after that, I will trust to Him.

I try not to bear any ill will towards another though that does not stop me from entering a debate which is done with no ill will.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:36 pm

Far Rider:-6

I enjoy a good debate as do many others. I do not want nor expect others to believe as I do.

I do believe what I post and have not come to those beliefs lightly. There has been very much formal and informal study behind those beliefs and their continues to be. All of this while continualy praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in whom I have placed my trust most of my life.

I know that much of what I say may be controversial but it does not make me wrong nor does it make others wrong either. I do hope it makes others think.

Shalom

Ted:-6