Death Penalty vs Life in Prison

[SOJOURNER]

What do you think? Should there be a death penalty?

If so, for what crimes?

What crimes warrant a sentence of "life in prison" with no possibility of parole.

[lady cop]

oh boy, don't get me started. we have had a few death penalty threads, it's always an interesting conversation. and it evokes passions as well. i believe in it. i have known many people sentenced to death. babysat one before his execution and had an interesting talk. so............here we go again.

[BTS]

I am ALL for the death penalty if there is DNA evidence but not circumstantial...........



Haggard Merle

Sing Me Back Home



The warden led a prisoner down the hallway to his doom

I stood up to say good-bye like all the rest

And I heard him tell the warden just before he reached my cell

'Let my guitar playing friend do my request.' (Let him...)

Sing me back home with a song I used to hear

Make my old memories come alive

Take me away and turn back the years

Sing Me Back Home before I die

I recall last Sunday morning a choir from 'cross the street

Came to sing a few old gospel songs

And I heard him tell the singers 'There's a song my mama sang.

Can I hear once before we move along?'

Sing me back home, the song my mama sang

Make my old memories come alive

Take me away and turn back the years

Sing Me Back Home before I die

Sing Me Back Home before I die

[SOJOURNER]

lady cop wrote: oh boy, don't get me started. we have had a few death penalty threads, it's always an interesting conversation. and it evokes passions as well. i believe in it. i have known many people sentenced to death. babysat one before his execution and had an interesting talk. so............here we go again.


So tell us, or direct us where to go to previous posts.

My opinion on this has changed completely over the years and back again. I just can't confidently stand completely on one side or the other. And the wavering is what is so unfair to those that are being sentenced. I do feel punishment should be uniformily the same across the states, but to kill 'em or keep 'em -- that I can't say I feel strongly enough one way or the other on an intellectual level -- emotionally, I'd say fry 'em.............

[BTS]

Far Rider wrote: I vote for death.



For violent assualt, rape, kidnapping, murder of course.



I prefer firing squad for military, and hanging for everyone else. The more public the better.






Out in Utah they still have that option...

I likes it tooooo!!!



Utah and the Use of Firing Squads

Articles on Utah's Firing Squads

The History

Utah is one of two states that offer execution by firing squad as an option to condemned inmates (Idaho is the other). Since Furman and the reinstatement of the death penalty in the USA in 1976, Utah has executed six inmates. Only two inmates have chosen the firing squad as their method of execution, the only two inmates in America to be executed by firing squad since reinstatement. Gary Gilmore (the first inmate executed in America since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976) was executed on January 17, 1977 and John Taylor was executed on January 27, 1996. As of January 2003, Utah has 11 people on death row. The last person to be executed in Utah was Joseph Parsons in 1999.

The Procedure

There is no official procedure for execution by firing squad. However, it is believed that five correctional officers will participate, each aiming at the inmate’s trunk. Some will have blanks and some will have live ammunition so that no one knows which gun committed the actual killing.

The Statutes

77-18-5.5 Judgment of death --Defendant to select method --Time of selection.

When a person is convicted of a capital felony and the judgment of death has been imposed, the defendant is entitled to select, at the time of sentencing, either a firing squad or a lethal intravenous injection as the method of execution. If the defendant does not indicate a preference at that time to the court, the judgment of death shall be executed by lethal intravenous injection.

77-19-10 Judgment of death --Location and procedures for execution.

(1) The executive director of the Department of Corrections or his designee shall ensure that the method of judgment of death specified in the warrant is carried out at a secure correctional facility operated by the department at an hour determined by the department on the date specified in the warrant.

(2) If the judgment of death is to be carried out by shooting, the executive director of the department or his designee shall select a five-person firing squad of peace officers.

(3) If the judgment of death is to be carried out by lethal intravenous injection, the executive director of the department or his designee shall select two or more persons trained in accordance with accepted medical practices to administer intravenous injections, who shall each administer a continuous intravenous injection, one of which shall be of a lethal quantity of sodium thiopental or other equally or more effective substance sufficient to cause death. Death shall be certified by a physician.

(4) Compensation for members of a firing squad or persons administering intravenous injections shall be in an amount determined by the director of the Division of Finance.

(5) The department shall adopt and enforce rules governing procedures for the execution of judgments of death.

[lady cop]

i'm not going searching for old threads. a fresh one is fine. and we will get differing opinions from our British friends who have eliminated the DP. Bothwell just did a thread on it where he has changed his mind. in the US we are about to execute our 1000th since the DP was reinstated. i am fully aware of the history of the DP and of the wrongs that were perpetrated. but now we have means of proof. when it comes to garbage like john couey i would do it myself. but i have a hard cop perspective, i know. i attended ted bundy's execution before we got rid of old sparky. it did my heart good to see him go whining and sniveling to the chair. and i would like to do danny rolling myself as well. no apologies for how i feel, that bastard butchered and decapitated 5 college kids.

[BTS]

Far Rider wrote: Very interesting! The Peace Officers are compesated as well? I find that odd. Why not their normal hourly rate?



I'd choose firing squad.


I think LC would do it for free of charge.........

[lady cop]

Death Penalty UK ( 1 2 3 )

Bothwell

[lady cop]

Far Rider wrote: Very interesting! The Peace Officers are compesated as well? I find that odd. Why not their normal hourly rate?



I'd choose firing squad.in fla. $150. per job. and you remain anonymous.

[CARLA]

If they are guilty beyond reasonable doubt, DNA proving their guilt.. I say kill them..!! Bad is bad all the way to the bone.. Yes I believe in the Death Penalty..

[Galbally]

Being an effeminate and morally dubious European I naturally do not support the DP in peacetime. That said, its not hard to understand why many people do support it, espeically in cases where the criminal is so obviously sick and murderous and is to all intensive purposes a waste of space, and an annoying waste of space at that. But I think that as the saying goes "hard cases make bad laws", and that in principal "we" as a society are much better off without it. I think effective policing, proper sentenancing that not only punishes but also removes obviously unrepentant criminals from society for good, adeqaute mental health policies, and a general instilled respect for the law and civil sociey are really the most effective way to protect the majority against the criminals and the lunatics.

I think the death penalty can seem to be a fair way of attaining justice for crimes that are utterly heinous, but I don't know if in the long run it makes any real compensation for the acts commited by these evil people. I think it can turn into a case of vengence as oppose to justice as well, which is easy to say I know if your family havn't been murdered by some b*stard. I do think that this argument only really applies though in civilian society, where in general law and order is maintained, and that the vast majority of people are not murders or rapists or head-removers or whatever, there are cirsumstances where the death penalty is a necessity, I just don't think my society needs it when not at war, and though I'm not a pacificist, but I don't think its a good thing to execute people unless it becomes a necessity. Thats my general opinion on it, but I wouldn't argue either for it or against it in the states, as its up to the people there to decide on what they believe is best in thier circumstances, and I don't like it when us Euro types start getting all "holier than thou" on this issue, as I think thats just past of the whole "America-bashing" thing that we sometimes get into over here. Its not our problem, and we shouldn't be preaching on it.

[lady cop]

Galbally i always respect your learned opinion. and if i were not an american copper who has seen lots of bloody murder i might feel less rabid on the subject. you are 33....i hope you never know what it is to see your child raped, and buried alive. or her head placed on a bookshelf.

[Galbally]

lady cop wrote: Galbally i always respect your learned opinion. and if i were not an american copper who has seen lots of bloody murder i might feel less rabid on the subject. you are 33....i hope you never know what it is to see your child raped, and buried alive. or her head placed on a bookshelf.


Thats a very valid point and its well taken ladycop, like I said its easy to be deatched and intellectual about it, when you havn't experienced these things. I would like to think I could deal with them rationally, but then again, perhaps I wouldn't, I am certain that I would feel like killing very quickly anyone that did those things to my loved ones. I am glad that there are people like american ladycops who have the bravery and rationality to try and deal with these things in our societies.

[Galbally]

lady cop wrote: you're a cutie.


Ah shucks:) . I wasn't trying to butter you up though, I know some police, and I know how difficult their job is, I admire them very much. Now, thats all the compliments your getting! This is an extremely serious thing so I won't make light of it, anway, your view is always interesting on this, as I'm sure that you know more about it than you really want to.

[Galbally]

SnoozeControl wrote: [QUOTE=Galbally]Being an effeminate and morally dubious European I naturally do not support the DP in peacetime. QUOTE]

I read the whole post, I swear, but that one line made me laugh out loud.


Dear Snooze, I'm glad you got a laugh out of my European sillyness, we are well aware that we can all too often appear to act like a bunch of pinko commie gayboys over there! Needless to say, I shall also be choking with laughter when next I see the WWF allstars in their muscular American macho-ness! I don't care what anyone says, but any guys who spend so much time oiling themselves up have to be a bit, well, you know! :p

[Valerie100]

I believe in the death penalty. I think that if tougher laws were in place, and criminals knew that the death penalty was the sentence, they might think twice before committing their crimes.

Torturous murderers are the ones that I would definitely put down. Child killers would be gone. Really, what is the purpose of keeping these animals alive? Save the prisons for the petty criminals, the ones that, maybe, can be helped. Death row inmates don't care. They're facing death already. They won't think twice of taking someone out. Why are we wasting our time and tax money on these people?

Some people argue that what if someone is wrongfully accused and put to death. I say if that does happen at all, it would very rarely happen. I believe that the loss of a few innocent lives to, maybe, make our country a better and safer place to live is well worth it.

On the sicker side of the death penalty -- this is a true story, by the way -- I used to work as a court reporter in Philadelphia, in the court system. A woman at court administration told me this -- and she actually was laughing about it and how everyone was talking about it -- about a judge who handed down death penalty sentences. This judge would get hard-ons when issuing death sentences and had to have his court officer take his pants to get mended in the crotch, because he broke through the zipper in his pants on the bench.

They say that power corrupts. It's a scary thought, huh? What a sick, sick judge.

[BTS]

Galbally wrote: [quote=SnoozeControl]



Dear Snooze, I'm glad you got a laugh out of my European sillyness, we are well aware that we can all too often appear to act like a bunch of pinko commie gayboys over there! Needless to say, I shall also be choking with laughter when next I see the WWF allstars in their muscular American macho-ness! I don't care what anyone says, but any guys who spend so much time oiling themselves up have to be a bit, well, you know! :p




Galbally........

WWF is all fake. the UFC is not.........

Try taking the oil off these guys........ All pics from here



http://www.ufcfightnews.com/

[chonsigirl]

:wah: I had to laugh at the WWf remark, my students always believe it is true, and talk about it.....................

[lady cop]

Val100 quote...On the sicker side of the death penalty -- this is a true story, by the way -- I used to work as a court reporter in Philadelphia, in the court system. A woman at court administration told me this -- and she actually was laughing about it and how everyone was talking about it -- about a judge who handed down death penalty sentences. This judge would get hard-ons when issuing death sentences and had to have his court officer take his pants to get mended in the crotch, because he broke through the zipper in his pants on the bench. ......whoever told you that must have thought you believe in the easter bunny.

[BabyRider]

Galbally wrote: I think effective policing, proper sentenancing that not only punishes but also removes obviously unrepentant criminals from society for good, adeqaute mental health policies, and a general instilled respect for the law and civil sociey are really the most effective way to protect the majority against the criminals and the lunatics.


Great! Super plan, wonderful ideas. Now get them to actually work.

[Accountable]

I don't see the point in life without parole, unless the medical community plans to study how such a mind works so as to prevent future crimes, or use them for medical experiments (does this really cause cancer? Let's check.). Otherwise, the death penalty saves space.



Also, I know that we use lethal injection to show that we're more humane than the murderer, but that's a waste of money. I say use air, a-i-r. Injecting large amounts of air into one's veins will kill just a surely as poison, and it's free. And re-use the needle, for cyin' out loud. It's not like one of 'em is going to get an infection.

[SOJOURNER]

Would anyone care to comment on another side of this issue:

what about the thought that we need to keep these people in prison (not kill them) so that they have an opportunity to repent, find God and save their souls..............

[Accountable]

SOJOURNER wrote: Would anyone care to comment on another side of this issue:



what about the thought that we need to keep these people in prison (not kill them) so that they have an opportunity to repent, find God and save their souls..............Not the job of our secular gov't.

[SOJOURNER]

Accountable wrote: Not the job of our secular gov't.


Maybe not, but have you any thoughts on this?

[Accountable]

SOJOURNER wrote: Maybe not, but have you any thoughts on this?That is my thought. I think we should remove people from society when they have proven themselves harmful (broken the law) and give them an opportunity to change and train/educate themselves to be of benefit to society. If they don't make themselves beneficial, they shouldn't get out. Of course, the bleeding hearts would bleed us dry if that system ever became fact. Sorry for the digression.



If there is no hope for putting a convict back on the street safely, I see no point in wasting food and bed space on them.

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

I wish we had the DP here in the UK - but it will never happen.... so i would say bollox to life in prisonment and give peadophiles, cop killers and rapists and anyone using a firearm the death penalty .Also if the little scumbags want to go out an rob and burgle it would be three strikes and their out - give them 20 years. First time offenders -5 years or **** them off into the army one or the other i say. People smugglers and drug dealers life no parole and illegal immigrants first offence send them straight back home and no re- entry .Also drink driving if you kill some body you did it because you were drunk,you knowingly got into your vehicle drunk so no excuses id give them15 years then tag em for the rest of their days- oh well i can dream zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[LilacDragon]

I am against the death penalty on so many levels, so I guess I'll share.

1) If murder is illegal, then it is illegal and having the government wrap it up in a pretty package and call it punishment doesn't make it something else.

2) Before all the fabulous strides were made in forensic science, innocent people were killed. How in the world do you appologize to their families?

3) The Death Penalty is supposed to be a deterrent. Judging from the current statistics on violent crimes - it isn't working.

4) It is cost prohibitive. It costs less money to keep someone in jail for life then it does to put someone to death. Face it, our tax dollars provide people on death row with a college education and a ton of legal services.

I'm sure I can come up with more reasons but really - why.

If someone is convicted of a violent crime and could be given the death penalty then maybe we should treat them like the scourge of the earth that they are. Lock them in a cell the size of my bathroom and keep them there! (Yes, I have a small bathroom.) No t.v., no radio, no cards, no nothing. Forget about expensive appeals. An hour a day should be plenty of time to stretch your legs a bit. Alone. In another little cell.

And let's be a little creative here. That woman down south who drove her car into the lake with her little boys in it and then tried to claim she was carjacked - let her spend 24 hours a day listening to a tape of little boys crying for their mommy.

As for pedophiles - I say put them in the general population and send the guards on a lunch break. I am sure that an hour would be plenty of time.

[jennyswan]

What do you think? Should there be a death penalty?

If so, for what crimes?

What crimes warrant a sentence of "life in prison" with no possibility of parole.


I don't think I agree with the death penalty because I don't think I would have the right to decide about another human life.

I think though if somebody did something really bad to a member of my family then I might change my mind. Thank God nothing like that has every happened.

I think crimes against children are the worst because they are innocent and can't emotionally or physically defend themselves. I think these people should never be let out and should rot in a cell forever.

[Lil~Basco]

I agree with the death penalty.

They should be turned over to the victim's family and let them decide how to end their life. I would choose to let them die in the same manner as they killed.

Not housing, feeding or educating them for years. No TV, recreation, nothing.

No Sojourner, I do not believe they need the opportunity to repent, find God and save their souls....if they had a soul to begin with, they wouldn't have committed the crime.

[Galbally]

BabyRider wrote: Great! Super plan, wonderful ideas. Now get them to actually work.


OK, thats fair enough.

1. Police, recruit about 40 percent more officers, pay them twice what they are on, broaden basic training, simplify the command structures, remove them from political influence, actually take advice from everyday officers how law and order can best be maintained at street level, and reorganize the various forces so that they are both active, reactive, and proactive in their various communities in a way that both citizens and criminals understand.

2. Laws. Impose minimum sentences for crimes of violence and theft. Make life (40 years) madatory for Murder, under any circumstances, for serial killers and such like indefinite sentences, i.e. forever. Place a moratorium on people getting out after serving 40 percent of their sentence, increase prison spaces so that tougher sentecing is actually practical, place a ban on the reporting of all trials until a verdict has been reached, instruct the courts that criminal cases should, while retaining the concept of innocent until proven guilty, be conducted in a way that is sympathetic to the victims of crime. Place a celling on the money that a lawyer can earn during the course of a single trial, automatically retire judges at the age of 60. Retain the idea of legal council, but make it a retroactive crime for defence lawyers to actively defend someone whom they know is guilty before a trial begins, make this punishable by a prison sentence, if it can be proven. This would mean that lawyers could give advice to people whom they have proof of that are guilty (i.e. plead guilty), but would be unable to defend people whom they know are guilty on technicalities for finacial gain. Lawyers could also be charged for using this law as an excuse for not defending people, whom they don't like or aren't rich enough. Execute immeadiatly all lawyers who use legal sophistry to attack this idea in prinicpal.

3. Mental Health, I would make it mandatory that anyone who is diagnosed with violent schitzophrenia, paeodophlia, violent sociopaths, and such like should not be granted access to the community at large whether they have commited serious crimes or not, they should be treated as patients not prisoners, but they should remain in secure institutions (properly secure now). As far as I am aware there are no cures for these condistions and there is no way that such people can be rehabilitated to the point where the community at large is safe. This would require an expansion of the mental health sector with more hospitals, doctors, nurses etc. It would be worth it.

4. Enhancing civil society and respect for the law. Invest in education, childcare, youth programs, training, and vocations. Prosecute parents who willingly neglect their children or tolerate or even aid their childrens' delinquency, allow teachers to use corporal punishment, place police stations in the middle of areas with high crime levels, give youths a choice to get out of deliquent behaviour and punish them with the courts if they refuse, clearly and unequivecally instruct people on what their actual rights and responsibilities are as citizens, what the government can do to help in difficult circumstances, and what it expects them to do for themselves. Enforce the ethos that although their are difficult social problems, that we should as a society attempt to improve, none are an excuse for criminality of any kind and that criminals are not victims, they are criminals. To be a citizen of a modern liberal democracy is a privilige not a right, and those who chose to abuse that privilidge should expect no help or encouragement. Allow the law, the police, and the judiciary to operate as freely as possible without political opportunism, social fads, middle-class hysteria, class bias, or any other nonsense to get in the way.

All these things would help, but they would cost money, especially the police bit, but I think it would be better to spend the money now rather than later. In the long run the best way to achieve low crime is to have a law abiding population that actually respects the idea of the law and both shared and personal responsibility, that doesn't happen overnight, but it can be achieved in the long term if we are prepared to really attempt it, and not some cheapo publicity stunts designed to make politicians look either harder on crime, nicer to poor people, concerned about the latest teenage outrage etc. etc. I wouldn't be expecting anything too serious at the moment though. :wah:

[ComfortablyNumb]

Some of the things criminals do make me cry - paedophiles, the 7 year old who battered his baby sister, serial killers. But death is forever and mistakes/prejudice are rife in the system. The death penalty should be about more than economics. Regardless of cost, society has a duty to treat criminals like human beings and not be vindictive or cruel.

Doestoyevsky said: "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners."

Yes, I'd be very angry if someone did something bad to my family but I am not about to become the thing I hate by harbouring thoughts of revenge. I'm not a criminal and don't intend to act like one, whatever the circumstances.

In death penalty cases it should only be 'life for life'. I'd like every criminal to regret/repent but I don't think that the death penalty precludes that - I've seen hardened stone cold killers repent and say sorry to relatives of the way to their deaths.

The criminals that should get life sentences are those like paedophiles who keep on re-offending - the community is safer with them behind bars. I'm not in favour of the 3 strikes rule since that gives criminals more incentive to shoot rather than give up to police.

Overall, no, I'm not in favour of the death penalty.

[nvalleyvee]

SOJOURNER wrote: What do you think? Should there be a death penalty?

If so, for what crimes?

What crimes warrant a sentence of "life in prison" with no possibility of parole.


If you take a life - you give your life. That means I firmly believe in the death penalty. There should be verifiable proof the person did the crime - none of this circumstantial stuff. AND as far as appeals are concerned for death row inmates convicted on solid DNA evidence --- no 10 year waiting period. I am darn tired of supporting them.

No possibility of parole you ask - what crimes? Well I don't really think you can take a life when that person has not taken a life. I really hate to support them with my tax money - I say bring back labor for them. Make them work for me as I have to work and pay for their life in prison. Dang - help me out here and let them pull their weight for not losing their life.

[Nomad]

I cant support the death penalty. Its morally corrupt and an oxymoron in my opinion. I also believe its the easy way out for the offender. I just cant side with the lets string em up crowd, its a mob mentality. In society we need to strive for our highest ethical conciseness. I believe we demean society by perpetrating a source of sorrow with more distress.

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: I cant support the death penalty. Its morally corrupt and an oxymoron in my opinion. I also believe its the easy way out for the offender. I just cant side with the lets string em up crowd, its a mob mentality. In society we need to strive for our highest ethical conciseness. I believe we demean society by perpetrating a source of sorrow with more distress.


Isn't it sad that the victims of those crimes are no longer here to agree with you.

[Nomad]

nvalleyvee wrote: Isn't it sad that the victims of those crimes are no longer here to agree with you.


It is sad. Its sad that these things occur yes. Its also sad that we as a society refuse to seize a fundamentally higher ground in regards to something as important as human life. We reach only the lowest common denominator by re-enacting the crime with a crime. We can't change the past but we can alter our future.

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: It is sad. Its sad that these things occur yes. Its also sad that we as a society refuse to seize a fundamentally higher ground in regards to something as important as human life. We reach only the lowest common denominator by re-enacting the crime with a crime. We can't change the past but we can alter our future.


I really disagree. The perpetrators of those crimes cannot be let loose on our society again - and AGAIN - why do I have to give my hard earned money to support these people!

You say a fundamentally higher ground as a society as one that basically supports killing. How can you justify keeping a person alive that is guilty of taking another life? We are NOT re-enacting the crime - how can you say that? A guilty person took an innocent person's life. There was no trial - they just took it because they felt like it - this person was judge, jury and executioner. That innocent person is now dead - why should the guilty person NOT die. A life for a life.

[Nomad]

nvalleyvee wrote: I really disagree. The perpetrators of those crimes cannot be let loose on our society again - and AGAIN - why do I have to give my hard earned money to support these people!



You say a fundamentally higher ground as a society as one that basically supports killing. How can you justify keeping a person alive that is guilty of taking another life? We are NOT re-enacting the crime - how can you say that? A guilty person took an innocent person's life. There was no trial - they just took it because they felt like it - this person was judge, jury and executioner. That innocent person is now dead - why should the guilty person NOT die. A life for a life.


I dont recall saying or implying that society does or should support killing unless we are talking about sanctioned murder as in the death penalty. Thats just ludicrous to equate being against the death penalty as being pro murder. Not very well thought out I think. I can justify life in that its our highest resource. Before you twist that Im also not implying criminals are of any real value in society, rather its beyond our responsibility nor is it within the realm of humans to relieve life but to support it, in all cases. You dont see the contradiction ? I dont condone the killer of course I just think we can rise above his actions by not perpetrating the same deed. Whatever the intent the act of murder is an act of murder, call it what you will. A life for a life ? I would never think myself so wise as to "know" taking anothers last breath is the right thing to do. $$$ ? Nonsense. You dont want to pay. We always pay. We pay for this and we pay for that. We have no recourse in the things we pay for. I find the way my govt. spends our money irresponsible, reprehensible and borderline criminal. Lobbyists this and special interests that, a tit for a tat. We live in a world out of our reach to be sure.

[lady cop]

we've seen a spate of inexplicable and unexcusable prison breaks recently, some of the escapees murderers. all i can say is i know damn well ted bundy isn't going anywhere or killing anyone else.

[Nomad]

For all of the proud ideolgies that prop our wars up, the war ends when we stop shooting bullets at eachother.

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: I dont recall saying or implying that society does or should support killing unless we are talking about sanctioned murder as in the death penalty. Thats just ludicrous to equate being against the death penalty as being pro murder. Not very well thought out I think. I can justify life in that its our highest resource. Before you twist that Im also not implying criminals are of any real value in society, rather its beyond our responsibility nor is it within the realm of humans to relieve life but to support it, in all cases. You dont see the contradiction ? I dont condone the killer of course I just think we can rise above his actions by not perpetrating the same deed. Whatever the intent the act of murder is an act of murder, call it what you will. A life for a life ? I would never think myself so wise as to "know" taking anothers last breath is the right thing to do. $$$ ? Nonsense. You dont want to pay. We always pay. We pay for this and we pay for that. We have no recourse in the things we pay for. I find the way my govt. spends our money irresponsible, reprehensible and borderline criminal. Lobbyists this and special interests that, a tit for a tat. We live in a world out of our reach to be sure.


The part of our world where we can determine the fate of killers is certainly within our grasp. I KNOW that if someone was convicted of killing a member of my family on DNA - absolute evidence - I would NOT have any guilt in watching them die.

How can you possibly say it is OK to kill and allow that person to suck my money all my life? Sorry - I give you the right to your belief - I just do not agree.

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: For all of the proud ideolgies that prop our wars up, the war ends when we stop shooting bullets at eachother.


And what does that have to do with killing within our own country? Our own citizens.

[BTS]

Nomad wrote: For all of the proud ideolgies that prop our wars up, the war ends when we stop shooting bullets at eachother.


OK ...................So when do we end cutting throats and flying Planes into buildings??????



Ohh that was to be expected I betttt



It was ALL King George's fault..................

[Nomad]

nvalleyvee wrote: The part of our world where we can determine the fate of killers is certainly within our grasp. I KNOW that if someone was convicted of killing a member of my family on DNA - absolute evidence - I would NOT have any guilt in watching them die.



How can you possibly say it is OK to kill and allow that person to suck my money all my life? Sorry - I give you the right to your belief - I just do not agree.




Why do you insist that I think its ok to kill ? Read my words. I value all human life. I think that we can be a unified higher self when we act above our base instincts. My statement on war is indicitave of the broader sense of whats wrong with our world. We will never exel and reach our potential when we act as barbarians. War is barbaric.

[Nomad]

BTS wrote: OK ...................So when do we end cutting throats and flying Planes into buildings??????



Ohh that was to be expected I betttt



It was ALL King George's fault..................




We become them when we rely on revenge as our sole source of justice. We cant control their hearts or their minds. We can however control our own actions. War begets war, hate begets hate, killing begets killing. Theres a better way. Im not naive enough to think my views are popular or even practical. Its how Id wish the world to be. Its how I choose my life to be and I surround myself with people like minded. If I had children its how I would educate them. Teach your children well and theres hope for a future.