Death Penalty vs Life in Prison

[Galbally]

Nomad wrote: Why do you insist that I think its ok to kill ? Read my words. I value all human life. I think that we can be a unified higher self when we act above our base instincts. My statement on war is indicitave of the broader sense of whats wrong with our world. We will never exel and reach our potential when we act as barbarians. War is barbaric.


I agree with your moral sentiments about judical killings Nomad, but although war is barbaric, its a barbarism that is sometimes thrust upon you by others. I don't think the 2 are equated, I do agree that killing people is in essence wrong, but it is sometimes inevitable, that doesn't justify wars, just means that sometimes you don't really have much of a choice, if you believe in your country's way of life.

[Nomad]

Galbally wrote: I agree with your moral sentiments about judical killings Nomad, but although war is barbaric, its a barbarism that is sometimes thrust upon you by others. I don't think the 2 are equated, I do agree that killing people is in essence wrong, but it is sometimes inevitable, that doesn't justify wars, just means that sometimes you don't really have much of a choice, if you believe in your country's way of life.




How often though are our governments intentions skewed by an ulterior motive ?

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: Why do you insist that I think its ok to kill ? Read my words. I value all human life. I think that we can be a unified higher self when we act above our base instincts. My statement on war is indicitave of the broader sense of whats wrong with our world. We will never exel and reach our potential when we act as barbarians. War is barbaric.


I never thought you agreed with the death penalty. I value all human life unless someone takes it on his own. When someone kills - outside of war - it beco0mes a societal problem.

[BTS]

Ok how about this one............



I had three women relatives - headed from Evingston, WY to Salt Lake City, Utah, and the driver is the daughter of the one who sits to the right. In the back seat you have the Mother of the driver's husband. They were travelling toward SLC when a pick-up merged from an on-ramp in front of them. He was drunk and hit the back of their car. It caused a major skid and roll over. The driver and the front passenger died. The woman in the back seat was mutilated and lost 1/2 of her foot.



The young man who caused this accident was on his way home from parting all night. He was awarded the sencence of 13 months of probation...........



HUHH

13 months........

The husband of the driver was so pissed and attended all the trial proceeding and after the verdict and losing his SOUL mate, he died from a heat attack at the ripe ol age of 36.............



I want to say here there is soooo much pain and loss on the part of the family.......2 people dead and one hurt. So there should be emotional compensation to the people who lost their lives. The guy probably did not deserve death but I cannot see supporting him for the death of my family for the rest of his life.



THIS is ALL real................... it happened in my family

[Nomad]

BTS wrote: Ok how about this one............



I had three women relatives - headed from Evingston, WY to Salt Lake City, Utah, and the driver is the daughter of the one who sits to the right. In the back seat you have the Mother of the driver's husband. They were travelling toward SLC when a pick-up merged from an on-ramp in front of them. He was drunk and hit the back of their car. It caused a major skid and roll over. The driver and the front passenger died. The woman in the back seat was mutilated and lost 1/2 of her foot.



The young man who caused this accident was on his way home from parting all night. He was awarded the sencence of 13 months of probation...........



HUHH

13 months........

The husband of the driver was so pissed and attended all the trial proceeding and after the verdict and losing his SOUL mate, he died from a heat attack at the ripe ol age of 36.............



I want to say here there is soooo much pain and loss on the part of the family.......2 people dead and one hurt. So there should be emotional compensation to the people who lost their lives. The guy probably did not deserve death but I cannot see supporting him for the death of my family for the rest of his life.



THIS is ALL real................... it happened in my family




I understand that would be tragic and heart wrenching, no argument from me there. Its our responsibility to change those things that need changing. Our judicial system should reflect societies needs. Im sorry that happened to your family.

[nvalleyvee]

Nomad wrote: I understand that would be tragic and heart wrenching, no argument from me there. Its our responsibility to change those things that need changing. Our judicial system should reflect societies needs. Im sorry that happened to your family.


I think our judcial reflects our societal needs --- get rid of them.

[Accountable]

Nomad, what's your opinion about life without parole? I apologize if you already stated it; I didn't read all the posts. Just give me a link if you did.

[DesignerGal]

I knew LC would be all over this one. She has an advantage we dont though, she gets to see these guys/gals up close and personal sometimes. I think she has better knowledge of their real state of remorse. Therefore its kind of cool to "know" her because I feel like I can ask her anything about high profile cases. And I like that she is so passionate about her job she can go on and on with some pretty interesting information...

But here is my opinion on this thread:

I used to be totally against the Death Penalty but the older I get the more Im moving over to the other side. I definetly think DNA should be confirmed if possible. There is nothing worse than an innocent person being executed.

In the case of the guy who raped the 4 month old infant: Death

I guess wuth me it all depends on wether or not the criminal is remorseful and if he can actually use his life term in prison to actually make a difference, be productive, do an awful lot of charity, but NOT gaining anything monetary or otherwise for himself.

[lady cop]

1000th Execution Expected In Virginia Wednesday



POSTED: 11:48 am EST November 29, 2005

UPDATED: 12:01 pm EST November 29, 2005

LUCASVILLE, Ohio -- Ohio carried out the nation's 999th execution since 1977 on Tuesday, putting to death a man who strangled his mother-in-law while high on cocaine and later killed his 5-year-old stepdaughter to cover up the crime.

John Hicks, 49, was put to death a day after Eric Nance was executed in Arkansas for killing a teenager by slashing her throat with a box cutter.

The 1,000th execution since the death penalty was reinstated is likely to come as soon as Wednesday, when Robin Lovitt is set to die in Virginia for fatally stabbing a man with scissors during a pool hall robbery.

Hicks offered a tearful apology for the 1985 murders earlier this month to Ohio Parole Board members, and said he loved both victims -- 56-year-old Maxine Armstrong and 5-year-old Brandy Green. He said his cocaine high made him desperate and paranoid.

He repeated his apology before his execution, telling relatives, "I know this may be shallow or hollow words to y'all but it's coming from my heart."

Douglas Hughes, Armstrong's son-in-law, witnessed the execution with his wife and daughter, said Hicks "showed no real remorse. He never once apologized to the family and never asked forgiveness."

Hicks had traded his VCR for about $50 worth of cocaine, court records show. After taking the drugs, he realized that his wife would wonder where it was, so he decided to steal money from Armstrong and get it back.

He found his stepdaughter asleep on the couch at Armstrong's apartment. He woke her and brought her to bed and then strangled Armstrong, leaving with about $300 and some credit cards.

Realizing Brandy could identify him, he returned and attempted to suffocate the 5-year-old with a pillow, then strangle her. She struggled, and Hicks covered her mouth and nose with duct tape.

He left Cincinnati, but turned himself in to police. He was executed in the girl's death.

On Monday, Gov. Bob Taft had refused to commute Hicks' sentence from death to life in prison. The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati and the U.S. Supreme Court also turned down last-minute appeals. Hicks was the 19th person executed in Ohio since the state resumed executions in 1999.

[DesignerGal]

I was born in 1977. That's alot of people and Hicks killed his stepdaughter over drugs!! Sounds like the death penalty fits his case to me.

[lady cop]

i know a young woman who beat her grandmother to death with a hammer 'cause granny didn't approve of her stuff being stolen and sold for crack. it was one messy crime scene.

[DesignerGal]

Oh my God LC! I know you told me you guys get counseling and therapy and I imagine you might need alot of it. I read your links about the Danny Rolling guy and I agree that a change of heart might come into play if your loved ones head is propped up on a book shelf. I think its the fact that in cases like these people were killed so brutally for the stuppidest of reasons and their bodies left in a position with absolutely NO DIGNITY that drives me crazy!!!

[lady cop]

well i haven't needed counseling yet :yh_drool ......but yes, there are a lot of sick bastards out there. rolling was a butcher. and his so-called "girlfriend" sondra london ought to be done the same time as him...she made a career out of profiting from the murders of those kids.

[DesignerGal]

lady cop wrote: his so-called "girlfriend" sondra london ought to be done the same time as him...she made a career out of profiting from the murders of those kids.


Can you give me a good link on her? I'd like to know more about this!! PLease?

[lady cop]

DesignerGal wrote: Can you give me a good link on her? ]

On Sondra London - Written By Glen Rogers

Glen Rogers is a death row prisoner. This page includes his writing on Sondra

London and her forged website.

www.ccadp.org/glensondra.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

The Wicked Web

Because I love Sondra London with all my heart. I am true to you, because you

are the flower that blooms in my soul." ...

www.radwebs.net/thetelling/wickdweb.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages Links

Commentary on Sondra London and Danny Rolling Savage Weekend: Daniel Rolling by

Fiona Steel An overview of the Gainesville murders .............................

[DesignerGal]

Found her at Crime Library

All I can say about her picture: SCARY! EEEEEWWWWW! Have you seen it?

[lady cop]

DesignerGal wrote: Found her at Crime Library



All I can say about her picture: SCARY! EEEEEWWWWW! Have you seen it?i've seen the sweathog. :yh_sick

[gmc]

Having the death penalty is all very well but when you have a judiciary that refuses to admit there`might be a miscarrage of justice or doesn't allow new evidence to be presented you have serious problems. Beyond reasonable doubt should mean exactly that. Had he admitted guilt his sentence would have been commuted to life.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/ame ... 329947.ece

Many aspects of Mr Richey's case - including a poor-quality original trial and a legal process making it virtually impossible to admit fresh evidence - show exactly why the death sentence should never be imposed in the first place."


Having seen statements from the DA involved he seems the type that won't admit he got it wrong. If you insist on the death penalty you owe it to the victim to get the right culprit.

http://www.1000execution.org/exonerated.html

This week, our country marks the 1000th time that an individual will be put to death at the hands of the state. The United States will carry out the 1000th execution since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, the 1000th ritual killing done in the name of “justice.”

During these past three decades, 122 people have been exonerated and released from death row, innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted. For every eight people executed during this period, one was exonerated. Our government’s failure rate in the administration of the death penalty has been the most stunning example of a barbaric policy gone awry. The convictions and death sentences of innocent people throughout the United States have been a human rights violation of catastrophic proportions.


That also means 122 guilty people got away with murder, literally.

Also from one of amnesty international sites.

Since 2000, only five countries are known to have executed juvenile offenders: China, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Pakistan, and the USA. 13 of these 21 executions have been in the USA. On January 21, 2004, Amnesty International launched its Stop Child Executions campaigning action to end this "shameful practice" once and for all.


In the UK as well there have been several caseswhere new DNA evidence has cleared those once found guilty or where forensic oe medical evidence has been found to be flawed. Most notably from an anerican standpoint the birmingham 5-made in to a Hollywood film in the Name of the Father, but also several cases of cot death where so called expert testimony had parents of cot death children incarcerated for murder.

posted by far rider



That is to me a tragic mistake. But in my opinion he did not intentionally kill another human being. So no death penalty, but probation alone is crazy and does nothing to teach him the value of human life. I would have sentenced him to five years inprisonment at the country coroners office, make it his job to perform body recovery. Each evening he can live at the County Jail under lock down. I say invoke the death penalty if he fails to perform his duty, misses one day of returning to lock down, or ever drinks a drop of alcohol the rest of his life. Any money he earns during the five years above his room and board at the county jail shoudl go to the victims family as restitution.

Now that is Justice, and rehabilitation.


I have little sympathy for drunk drivers and those causing accidents should be banned for life as well as being thrown in jail, especially where there` is a fatality..

[lady cop]

not to put too fine a point on it, but exonerated does not necessarily mean innocent. i am aware of miscarriages in the history of DP in America. i want there to be no doubt as to guilt of perpetrator.

[jennyswan]

Hi Lady Cop

Probably bit of a silly question but what's prison really like?

What really happens there?

[DesignerGal]

Have we started this thread because of Tookie Williams? It seems like this is a HUGE issue right now, and only gets hotter everytime someone is up for execution.

Yeah, LC, I'd like to know the answer to the prison question, too!!

[lady cop]

jennyswan wrote: Hi Lady Cop



Probably bit of a silly question but what's prison really like?

What really happens there?not a silly question, but can't be answered in brief. much depends on whether it is minimum, maximum or even super-max security. generally offenders are housed with people who have committed similar crimes. (the HBO program, OZ, was total bollocks.) and death row is not the same as general population. death row inmates are housed alone in a cell, they are usually locked down 23 hours per day. one hour for exercise and shower. san quentin lets death row inmates exercise in small groups together, carefully choosing who is in each group. general population contains inmates who have more freedom, even trustee jobs. please note jail and prison are not the same.

[lady cop]

further, there is ISO...isolation, for those who are dangerous to staff or other inmates. often inmates are clothed to indicate a status, for example a 'red shirt' is a dangerous person, two officers needed to move that inmate. 'yellow shirt' , escape risk. striped uniform, has assaulted a police officer. jail is for holding people awaiting trial, and is stricter with more time in lockup. prison is for anyone sentenced to one year or more. (felony). any specific questions before i babble on? ...................Prison Life is Tough~ boo hoo~

[jennyswan]

please note jail and prison are not the same.


Thanks LC!

What's the difference?

Do you think that most people on death row (who are really guilty) are just plain bad or pyschologically damaged to commit such evil?

[lady cop]

jennyswan wrote: Thanks LC!

What's the difference?



Do you think that most people on death row (who are really guilty) are just plain bad or pyschologically damaged to commit such evil?jails are for people awaiting trial, or convicted and serving time for a misdemeanor (one year or less). as for people on death row, you really can't generalize about why they are there, it's all case by case.

[SOJOURNER]

lady cop wrote: further, there is ISO...isolation, for those who are dangerous to staff or other inmates. often inmates are clothed to indicate a status, for example a 'red shirt' is a dangerous person, two officers needed to move that inmate. 'yellow shirt' , escape risk. striped uniform, has assaulted a police officer. jail is for holding people awaiting trial, and is stricter with more time in lockup. prison is for anyone sentenced to one year or more. (felony). any specific questions before i babble on? ...................Prison Life is Tough~ boo hoo~


Is this the same for all the states or do the sates differ as they do in sentencing?

[lady cop]

SOJOURNER wrote: Is this the same for all the states or do the sates differ as they do in sentencing?i was discussing florida re: the shirts, but corrections philosophy and methods are pretty similar everywhere.

[gmc]

posted by ladycop

not to put too fine a point on it, but exonerated does not necessarily mean innocent. i am aware of miscarriages in the history of DP in America. i want there to be no doubt as to guilt of perpetrator.


Do put a fine point on it, innocent means innocent, not guilty, they didn't do it, exonerated means absolved from blame not necessarily innocent.

Don't actually know about the US cases-Richey is getting a lot of publicity over here as you might expect. There does seem to be a bit of he was accused therefore he did it culture with no room for further evidence coming to light and a DA pursuing a vendetta. How accurate that picture is I'm not sure.

Certainly in the UK cases they weren't exonerated they were proven innocent.

In Scots law the jury can return a "not proven" verdict. Highly controversial, used when they don't believe the case is proven beyond reasonable doubt but also that the accused is not completely innocent either.

[lady cop]

GMC quote....In Scots law the jury can return a "not proven" verdict. Highly controversial, used when they don't believe the case is proven beyond reasonable doubt but also that the accused is not completely innocent either....i knew that, and it sure beats an OJ acquital. many do not seem to understand that an acquital does not preclude a civil action. do you have double jeopardy prohibition? can the 'not proven' defendant be tried again in criminal court?

[lady cop]

RICHMOND, Va. ” Virginia's governor on Tuesday spared the life of a convicted killer who would have been the 1,000th person executed in the United States since the Supreme Court allowed capital punishment to resume in 1976. robin lovett's death sentence was commuted to life in prison without parole a little more than 24 hours before he was to be executed by injection Wednesday night for stabbing a man to death with a pair of scissors during a 1998 pool-hall robbery.

[lady cop]

...caution, next post very graphic!!!

[lady cop]

last time florida used the chair. sorry if this is too much for some to view. but it's reality.

[lady cop]

nice clean lethal injection.

[lady cop]

in case you're feeling sorry for the fat guy with the nosebleed........Allen Lee Davis #558 The execution of convicted murderer Allen "Tiny" Davis took place early Thursday ... Allen Lee "Tiny" Davis was executed in the State of Florida in 1999. .........

[lady cop]

here's the filthy bastard danny rolling who butchered 5 kids. may he rot in hell. i will attend his execution with bells on. one little girl was decapitated and her head placed on a bookcase, her body splayed on the bed. a pose for the cops to find.

[Nomad]

Accountable wrote: Nomad, what's your opinion about life without parole? I apologize if you already stated it; I didn't read all the posts. Just give me a link if you did.




Absolutely for it ! I dont want to see these animals on the street again.

[Nomad]

DesignerGal wrote: I knew LC would be all over this one. She has an advantage we dont though, she gets to see these guys/gals up close and personal sometimes. I think she has better knowledge of their real state of remorse. Therefore its kind of cool to "know" her because I feel like I can ask her anything about high profile cases. And I like that she is so passionate about her job she can go on and on with some pretty interesting information...



But here is my opinion on this thread:



I used to be totally against the Death Penalty but the older I get the more Im moving over to the other side. I definetly think DNA should be confirmed if possible. There is nothing worse than an innocent person being executed.



In the case of the guy who raped the 4 month old infant: Death



I guess wuth me it all depends on wether or not the criminal is remorseful and if he can actually use his life term in prison to actually make a difference, be productive, do an awful lot of charity, but NOT gaining anything monetary or otherwise for himself.






Of course shes all over it ! Look at her signiature.



anyone who goes about with merry christmas on his lips should be boiled in his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart! BAH HUMBUG!

[lady cop]

Nomad wrote: Of course shes all over it ! Look at her signiature.



anyone who goes about with merry christmas on his lips should be boiled in his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart! BAH HUMBUG!plagiarist twerp.

[DesignerGal]

lady cop wrote: in case you're feeling sorry for the fat guy with the nosebleed........Allen Lee Davis #558 The execution of convicted murderer Allen "Tiny" Davis took place early Thursday ... Allen Lee "Tiny" Davis was executed in the State of Florida in 1999. .........


My jaw dropped to the f&%^$#ing floor. What a disgusting pig a$$ mother Filther! He is in hell right now I hope hanging by his toenails while hitler hags next to him and they are being lashed with acid!

LC, Im still waiting for that response on the "not proven" verdict and wether or not Double Jeapordy exists. My father in law was a prosecutor for the Mel Ignatow case in Louisville, KY. You might remember that one? The jury couldnt convict on murder and later evidence came out and they could only get him for perjury.

[lady cop]

i don't know the case, will read up.................CBS News | 48 Hours: Double Jeopardy | January 28, 2002 13:34:50

Everyone in Louisville, Ky. knows that Mel Ignatow did it. The mystery is why

Ignatow ... “Mel Ignatow breaks up with you, but you don’t break up with Mel. ...

[Accountable]

Nomad wrote: Absolutely for it ! I dont want to see these animals on the street again.You don't see the hopelessness of being in prison for years on end as being a barbaric torture? I see it as very slow execution.

[Nomad]

Accountable wrote: You don't see the hopelessness of being in prison for years on end as being a barbaric torture? I see it as very slow execution.


Of course it would be agonizing. It should be acc, if you take a human life you owe your life as debt. Its humane enough, 3 squares and a bed. Dont commit murder and you wont have to live that way. These people that do, they could have walked away.

[Accountable]

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=39



Sorry, the only difference I see is time. We're killing the killer, just as surely. It seems more barbaric to me to string the guy along without hope.

[Nomad]

Accountable wrote: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=39



Sorry, the only difference I see is time. We're killing the killer, just as surely. It seems more barbaric to me to string the guy along without hope.


Im not really getting you here acc. We should kill them because its the humane thing to do ? What about a bank robber that doesnt use a gun and no one gets hurt, should they be incarcerated ? Its a federal crime so it will be a lengthy stay...10-20 yrs ? Is this appropriate action to be taken ?

[Accountable]

Nomad wrote: Im not really getting you here acc. We should kill them because its the humane thing to do ? What about a bank robber that doesnt use a gun and no one gets hurt, should they be incarcerated ? Its a federal crime so it will be a lengthy stay...10-20 yrs ? Is this appropriate action to be taken ?Don't get off point here. We won't give such bank robbers life without parole, do we?



Yes, execution is more humane than life without parole - absolutely - especially when discounting life after death, as a secular gov't must do.

[Nomad]

Accountable wrote: Don't get off point here. We won't give such bank robbers life without parole, do we?



Yes, execution is more humane than life without parole - absolutely - especially when discounting life after death, as a secular gov't must do.


Im not getting off the point, Im adressing your views on the big picture. Ill assume you agree that if a man robs a bank he should be incarcerated. Whats an approriate sentence ? Lets say twenty yrs. You dont think thats agonizing ? Think about how long that is, day in and day out. Murder is the ultimate crime and since I dont sanction murder for murder life in prison is the penalty. It doesnt matter any longer how they "feel" about that, they took a life, they must pay. They had a choice acc.

[Accountable]

Nomad wrote: Im not getting off the point, Im adressing your views on the big picture. Ill assume you agree that if a man robs a bank he should be incarcerated. Whats an approriate sentence ? Lets say twenty yrs. You dont think thats agonizing ? Think about how long that is, day in and day out. Murder is the ultimate crime and since I dont sanction murder for murder life in prison is the penalty. It doesnt matter any longer how they "feel" about that, they took a life, they must pay. They had a choice acc.Twenty years leaves the hope of freedom at the other end. Life without parole and execution both end the life.



I don't believe punishment has real efficacy. Our current system incarcerates the criminal for a set time then releases him/her, regardless of any change in behavior, attitude, etc. I have definite ideas about how the prison system should be run. It includes incentive for improvement, no life or death sentence, and complete & utter equality.



I paraphrased it in here somewhere. *goes off to research*

[Galbally]

I see this thread is running and running, well like I said I'm not going into the specifics of the D.P in the U.S. thats American business, so I will be general. There are quite a few different arguments for and againt the D.P. with one being that it is just, and that it sets a precedent in which violent criminals know that their actions will be met with the harshest punishment (death), though whether death is worse than being tortured every day for 40 years is a moot point (too expensive). A lot of people have this view and it has merit, in that many criminals are not particularly clever and it sends a message to them, whether they listen to it is another question. Then there are the victims and their families and whether the D.P. provides natural justice as in "an eye for and eye", again I think this is natural and not hard to understand (just read some of ladycops posts). The counter argument is that our justice system is based on a higher moral plane than the law of the criminals, which may seem a bit wishy washy, but it does provide an ethos where the highest levels of personal freedom and civic rights are maintained (I'm not saying its entirely sucessful, but I think that using the causing the precautionary principal in terms of things like jurist prudence, right to a defence, innocent till proven guitly, seperation of judiciary and politics, and even the D.P. itself provides us with a certain amount of protetcion from an overzealous state using the law to enfore its will over us).

Now of course these rights are abused by criminals, and it is galling to see murders, gang members, and all that lot crying crocodile tears and using every legal avenue to get themselves out of a sticky situation like the D.P., but we don't make laws just to punish bad guys, the law applies to everyone, so if its flawed, or unfair, that will apply to everyone and not just the leader of the cripps.

In terms of the argument of the cost and bother of keeping these people locked up, this is quite specific to the U.S., because despite having the D.P. the U.S. is quite scrupulous about its laws, so an awful lot of tax payers time and money is spent in most cases in accessing every legal avenue that people put on death row have in order to have their sentences commuted, this is why they stay there so long, and why the costs of the D.P. are so high in the U.S., basically because the U.S. is a civilized state and does not summarily execute people. In China, the D.P is carried out a few days after sentencing, there are no appeals, and the costs is that of a bullet and burial, which is charged to the convivted criminals family. I tend to think that the Chinese use this system, not becuase they are particularly bloodthristy (though the PRC is on occasion) but that its just an extremely cheap method of dishing out criminal justice, it may seem to have advantages over the American system, but I don't think it would be pracical in a country where freedom is actually believed in (i.e. America or us) so I don't think that anyone in the U.S. or Europe would advocate that we adopt a Chinese style criminal justice system.

Again, I'm not going to really make any specific comment on the U.S. system, but in general I think the D.P. is a bad idea in western societys for a varity of reasons, moral, practical, and legal etc. The moral arguement is the hardest to make because there are cases where the people involved do deserve the death penalty, and there is a price to pay for being humanitarian about it, but I accept it, like ladycop said, if it was my family I would probably think different, and I think she is right, but its always been one of the hardest things in law to balance what is right for indivduals as opposesed to what is right for society in general. Anyway, thats my thoughts on it for today.