Death Penalty vs Life in Prison

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:48 am

Accountable wrote: Twenty years leaves the hope of freedom at the other end. Life without parole and execution both end the life.

I don't believe punishment has real efficacy. Our current system incarcerates the criminal for a set time then releases him/her, regardless of any change in behavior, attitude, etc. I have definite ideas about how the prison system should be run. It includes incentive for improvement, no life or death sentence, and complete & utter equality.

I paraphrased it in here somewhere. *goes off to research*

I respect your opinion acc, however theres no wiggle room for hope in this extreme circumstance. If that person should choose, they could still lead a fulfilling life within those constraints. They could accept their fate as just, then learn from their spiritual self, then teach others. If I took a life, I would expect no leniancy. I made my bed so to speak, hopefully I would find the strength to find my higher self and explore the art of wisdom and compassion.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:02 am

Nomad wrote: I respect your opinion acc, however theres no wiggle room for hope in this extreme circumstance. If that person should choose, they could still lead a fulfilling life within those constraints. They could accept their fate as just, then learn from their spiritual self, then teach others. If I took a life, I would expect no leniancy. I made my bed so to speak, hopefully I would find the strength to find my higher self and explore the art of wisdom and compassion.Why should he be allowed a fulfilling life?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:22 am

*The counter argument is that our justice system is based on a higher moral plane than the law of the criminals,* Yes Galbally.

*Why should he be allowed a fulfilling life ?*

I would like to think redemption is available to all whom seek that in earnest. There have been many instances of families victims forgiving their intruder and one I can think of (the names escape me) in which the family championed for the prisoners release. These people followed a difficult path by reaching for forgiveness, they followed the teachings of Jesus. A lofty goal no ?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:15 pm

Nomad wrote: *The counter argument is that our justice system is based on a higher moral plane than the law of the criminals,* Yes Galbally.

*Why should he be allowed a fulfilling life ?*

I would like to think redemption is available to all whom seek that in earnest. There have been many instances of families victims forgiving their intruder and one I can think of (the names escape me) in which the family championed for the prisoners release. These people followed a difficult path by reaching for forgiveness, they followed the teachings of Jesus. A lofty goal no ?I like lofty goals. Goals are good. This is not a goal for gov't.

If you want to talk your church (or any church) into opening their own prison, that would be fine. I don't see the point of keeping a person in prison for life on the off chance that he may find redemption (especially if he's in there for life without parole). Not for a secular gov't supported by taxpayers, anyway.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:41 pm

Accountable wrote: I like lofty goals. Goals are good. This is not a goal for gov't.

If you want to talk your church (or any church) into opening their own prison, that would be fine. I don't see the point of keeping a person in prison for life on the off chance that he may find redemption (especially if he's in there for life without parole). Not for a secular gov't supported by taxpayers, anyway.

No No No acc ! I dont mean they should be given any special opportunities to find redemption. Thats not why Im against sanctioned murder either. Thats a personal path they choose or not. It happens in the heart and the mind. If they happen to be incarcerated for life and they choose a path of higher ground then so be it. If not so be it. Theyre there for the duration regardless. If the families choose forgiveness so as not to be tortured for their remaining days then so be it, if not so be it. We cant control thoughts only actions or the prevention of actions. Its our responsibility to remove threats from the population, not to kill them in my opinion.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:17 pm

Then the one apparently moot point is that I see no difference in killing them outright or warehousing them until they expire. Either way, we've taken their lives from them.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:23 pm

the thing is, these guys who are genuinely dangerous will kill other inmates or officers if they have the chance.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:30 pm

lady cop wrote: the thing is, these guys who are genuinely dangerous will kill other inmates or officers if they have the chance. Some will; some won't. We can't use the death penalty to circumvent crime.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:30 pm

Accountable wrote: Then the one apparently moot point is that I see no difference in killing them outright or warehousing them until they expire. Either way, we've taken their lives from them.

Weve removed the danger from society. Thats the task at hand. In the process we have taken away their freedoms yes, however we have not extinguished the flame. The soul exists. Thats Gods business, not mine.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:40 pm

Nomad wrote: Weve removed the danger from society. Thats the task at hand. In the process we have taken away their freedoms yes, however we have not extinguished the flame. The soul exists. Thats Gods business, not mine.'kay.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:42 pm

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:08 am

not a hanging offense in my estimation, but he's 25 and going to hang. punishment must fit the crime. this is sad. Australian man prepares to hang

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:24 am

Everyone knows that Asia has a very harsh penal system so why even attempt to manipulate it - far as im concerned if you try the crime expect to do the time.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:29 am

That doesnt deserve the death penalty. I would go out of my way and probably even breaks ome laws to help my sister were she ever in trouble.

Sounds to me like he was trying to do the right thing with the only resources he thought he had (anyone seen Maria Full of Grace?).

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:25 pm

AP Image

Kenneth Lee Boyd is scheduled to become the 1,000th person executed since the 1977 resumption of capital punishment in the U.S.

1,000th U.S. Execution Scheduled Overnight

POSTED: 1:42 pm EST December 1, 2005

UPDATED: 5:49 pm EST December 1, 2005

RALEIGH, N.C. -- An appeals court has rejected a bid by lawyers for Kenneth Boyd to spare him from lethal injection overnight in North Carolina.

Boyd is set to die at 2 a.m. EST on Friday for killing his wife and his father-in-law. He would be the 1,000th person executed in the United States since capital punishment resumed in 1977.

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Thursday rejected an appeal that argued against the method of execution.

Another appeal is still before the U.S. Supreme Court. It claims in part that the jury didn't take the case seriously because it was a retrial.

Boyd spent the day receiving visitors -- including two of his sons, who were witnesses as he killed their mother and grandfather in 1988.

His lawyer said Boyd "would love to live" and would love for the governor or the courts to step in, but that he's "facing the possibility that won't happen."

In a prison interview Wednesday, Boyd told the Associated Press he doesn't want to be remembered as No. 1,000.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:30 pm

Australian executed in Singapore

Nguyen Tuong Van was found with 400g of heroin

An Australian drug smuggler has been executed at Singapore's Changi prison.

Nguyen Truong Van, 25, received a mandatory death sentence after being arrested at the country's airport in 2002 with 400g (14 ounces) of heroin. He was hanged hours after his mother and twin brother had visited him and despite calls for clemency.

SOJOURNER · Post by **SOJOURNER** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:20 pm

lady cop wrote: not a hanging offense in my estimation, but he's 25 and going to hang. punishment must fit the crime. this is sad. Australian man prepares to hang

Hanging may seem harsh because of the inequity between countries and between states in assigning punishment. But if you know a place takes a hard line on this, why would you go and risk it............ That's just plain stupid!

As far as the DP goes (which I know is another thread) I have always felt drug dealers should receive this kind of a sentence because of all the lives they very consciously destroy and the crime that is initiated to pay for them.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:25 pm

no , this is YOUR thread and current! the DP is always a good subject for debate. Bothwell was telling me today (he's in australia on business) that there was a big protest and upset over that execution. and yes, the kid knew the law and the risk. but i have trouble with hanging a 25 year old for drug smuggling despite being a DP proponent. i felt so sorry for his mom. and your point is well-made, drug dealers are killers.

SOJOURNER · Post by **SOJOURNER** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:59 pm

lady cop wrote: no , this is YOUR thread and current! the DP is always a good subject for debate. Bothwell was telling me today (he's in australia on business) that there was a big protest and upset over that execution. and yes, the kid knew the law and the risk. but i have trouble with hanging a 25 year old for drug smuggling despite being a DP proponent. i felt so sorry for his mom. and your point is well-made, drug dealers are killers.

Then I really do not understand your feelings on this - that his hanging is wrong. Yes it hurts those that love him, but what about all the family and friends that love the poor saps that gets hooked on his poison.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:06 pm

i agree dope dealers kill, but i reserve the death penalty for egregious murder. i have to draw a line in my own mind. here there are years of review and appeals, that kid was summarily executed. then again, the laws of that land prevail. and people who do drugs do so voluntarily. i need a direct murder to see someone on death row. drunk drivers kill too, i don't think we should execute them.

SOJOURNER · Post by **SOJOURNER** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:20 pm

lady cop wrote: i agree dope dealers kill, but i reserve the death penalty for egregious murder. i have to draw a line in my own mind. here there are years of review and appeals, that kid was summarily executed. then again, the laws of that land prevail. and people who do drugs do so voluntarily. i need a direct murder to see someone on death row. drunk drivers kill too, i don't think we should execute them.

I see.

Just when I was thinking I was on to something, you have injected more things to consider. My thread is leading me to more questions than answers, which is probably a good thing.

Then there is the spiritual angle which, for some, needs to be addressed when discussing putting another person to death.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:29 pm

it does get complicated! i should tell you about the night i babysat a guy about to be executed, but i've told that story before and don't want to be a bore.

SOJOURNER · Post by **SOJOURNER** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:32 pm

lady cop wrote: it does get complicated! i should tell you about the night i babysat a guy about to be executed, but i've told that story before and don't want to be a bore.
There are a lot of us newer FG posters who haven't heard it................. yet.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:46 pm

in all honesty i am not concerned with the spiritual side, i have seen too many cons 'get religion'. which they leave at the jailhouse door. but it certainly is a valid topic. we had a guy who was about to die, and my sheriff did not want to leave him alone. he asked for volunteers/overtime deputies to sit with him. the male officers who did would not talk to him. i had 12 hours with him and wanted to talk. i wanted to know how he felt and also wanted to pick his brain about some other death row inmates. like ted bundy, he knew ted after 18 years on the row. he had kidnapped, raped and murdered a young woman. well he told me a pack of damn lies and he whined about his kids. he lied about the crime and he also said he was ready. in short, he was executed shortly after and i felt nothing, despite hearing all his stories. but i did get some good info on bundy. i guess i'm cold. this job will do that to you. this was the short version. i know a lot of murderers.

SOJOURNER · Post by **SOJOURNER** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:53 pm

lady cop wrote: in all honesty i am not concerned with the spiritual side, i have seen too many cons 'get religion'. which they leave at the jailhouse door. but it certainly is a valid topic. we had a guy who was about to die, and my sheriff did not want to leave him alone. he asked for volunteers/overtime deputies to sit with him. the male officers who did would not talk to him. i had 12 hours with him and wanted to talk. i wanted to know how he felt and also wanted to pick his brain about some other death row inmates. like ted bundy, he knew ted after 18 years on the row. he had kidnapped, raped and murdered a young woman. well he told me a pack of damn lies and he whined about his kids. he lied about the crime and he also said he was ready. in short, he was executed shortly after and i felt nothing, despite hearing all his stories. but i did get some good info on bundy. i guess i'm cold. this job will do that to you. this was the short version. i know a lot of murderers.
That's a lot of rough stuff you've listened to over the years. It is interesting to hear it 2nd hand and editorialized.

I've always thought that the in depth news coverage of crimes sort of kick starts others into trying things that perhaps, within their own imagination, they would not have done otherwise. Have you found this to be true?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:14 pm

i really don't editorialize much. i say the truth as i see it. i may editorialize for decency. i do not think news coverage influences criminals, just my opinion. mostly they are just dumb. this is good, one day i pick up the local paper. there's a huge front-page pic of a dumbass robbing a bank. i go see my sergeant and say 'hey, that's weldon' sure enough, we go out and pick up weldon. mostly they are purely stupid. weldon says to me 'will go out with me when i get out in 20 years?' i told him he wouldn't have more than the 100 bucks from his bank robbery to take me out! :wah:

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:44 pm

Death Penalty Sought in 'Precious Doe' Case....oh tell me this guy doesn't deserve death.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:16 pm

Accountable wrote: Injecting large amounts of air into one's veins will kill just a surely as poison, and it's free. And re-use the needle, for cyin' out loud. It's not like one of 'em is going to get an infection.

Found this at Wikkipedia to clear this question up:

The arm of the condemned is swabbed with alcohol before the needle is inserted into the persons arm. Along with its antiseptic use, the alcohol also causes the blood vessels to rise to the skin's surface, making it easier to insert the needle. [1] The needles and equipment used are also sterilized, though this is because they are standard medical products that are sterilized during manufacturing. There is also a chance that the prisoner could receive a stay of execution after the needles have been inserted as happened in the case of James Autry in October 1983 (he was executed eventually on 14 March 1984). Also it would be a hazard for those handling the equipment.

The injection is intravenous and is usually a mixture of compounds, designed to induce rapid unconsciousness followed by death through muscular paralysis of the lungs and/or by inducing cardiac depolarization.

The execution of a victim in most states involves three separate injections:

Sodium thiopental: to induce a state of unconsciousness intended to last while the other two injections take effect.

Pancuronium/Tubocurarine: to stop all muscle movement except the heart. This causes involuntary muscle paralysis, collapse of the diaphragm, and eventually death by asphyxiation.

Potassium chloride: to stop the heart from beating, and thus the victim's death: see cardiac arrest.

The drugs are not mixed externally as that can cause them to precipitate.