Divine Intervention vs Free Will

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:06 pm

Far Rider wrote: How do you think one enters heaven? By what way?Climb the old oak by the bedroom window.

*sorry I couldn't resist*

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:18 am

I've heard something mentioned about a lady, and she is convinved that all that glitters is gold, apparently she is engaged in buying her stairway to heaven.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:34 pm

Far Rider:-6

I'm going to give a short answerto that question at the moment as time is getting late but will add more later.

By what way to we get to heaven? We could get into a discussion of the eaning of that term but will pass that by for now. We enter "heaven" by and through the free and undeserved Grace of God as seen in both the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:50 pm

Far Rider:-6

Within the bounds of Christianity there is no dogma nor doctrine that is necessary to ener "heaven". What isimportant is that we live ing a growing , developing,, trandforming relationship with Almighty God. That is all that is necessary.

This is not an exclusive thing but in fact is open to every person over every major faith in the world. According to Acts 10 "All, in every nation, who love God and do waht is right are acceptable to. According to Micah 6:8 ll that God requires of us to to do justice, love kindleness and walk humbly with God.

In neither Micah or Acts are there any strings attached. If there were strings attached then God grace would not in fact be grace.

Shalom

Ted:-6

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:24 am

Ted wrote: Far Rider:-6

Within the bounds of Christianity there is no dogma nor doctrine that is necessary to ener "heaven". What isimportant is that we live ing a growing , developing,, trandforming relationship with Almighty God. That is all that is necessary.

This is not an exclusive thing but in fact is open to every person over every major faith in the world. According to Acts 10 "All, in every nation, who love God and do waht is right are acceptable to. According to Micah 6:8 ll that God requires of us to to do justice, love kindleness and walk humbly with God.

In neither Micah or Acts are there any strings attached. If there were strings attached then God grace would not in fact be grace.

Shalom

Ted:-6

"Let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there in no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."John 14:6.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:13 am

ComfortablyNumb:-6

There are many possible interpretations to the two quotes you have mentioned. If we take youyr quote from Acts 4 at face value, and out of context then we have a contradiction with Acts 10 where Peter clearly says that anyone in any nation is acceptable to God if they do what is right and love God.

That then begs another interpretation of Acts 4.

Your quote from John 14:6 cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus. Those are the words that John has placed in the mouth of our Lord. Now I don't completely disagree with them. Jesus says he is the "way" and his way is the way. Way is used throughout the OT and the NT and for most of the uses it means road or path. I would agree that Jesus has shown us the path or the road and has confirmed it in Matt 22:34ff and in Matt 25:32ff.

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with those who say the Name Jesus Christ. It is totally inclusive of all nations around the world and all peoples of all the great faiths around the world.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:00 pm

Far Rider:-6

You are correct in that God never changes. However, our understanding does the more we learn about reality and the world around us and the nature of man.

Your problem is not that I apparently discredit some parts of the Bible, which by the way I do respect as "The Word of God" because God does speak to us through the very human words of the Bible. We must learn to discer what is from God and what is from man. We must learn to use our reason in studying the sacred writings. You problem is that I don't agree with your interpretation and therefore I am a heretic.

As far as discrediting the Bible goes I do not make a Paper Pope out of it nor do I make it an object of worship. It is God and Him only that I worship even the God as manifest in Yeshua of Nazareth.

Unfortunately you have decided that you are the one who is correct and has the correct interpretation and everyone else who disagrees is automatically a heretic. Debating the points would be more appropriate then ad homonim attacks. However, as you wish.

BTW If I were you I would save your opening "Your honour" for someone more worthy of such a title such as a judge or perhaps the master himself. I am but a humble servant of my Lord Jesus Christ.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:43 pm

Far Rider:-6

You didn't have to sit back and wait. You could just have out and out asked a question and I would have given an answer. Ah! perhaps it is the stealth that is exciting, the wondering. When will he slip and fall?

I do hope, however, that you watch other posts as well because maybe one of them will slip and fall and add to your excitement. The melodrama!

YES!

Shalom

Ted:-6

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:34 pm

"Επομένως ακολουθήστε μετά από τα πράγματα που κάνουν για την ειρήνη, και τα πράγματα με τι κάποιο μπορεί άλλο." Ρωμαίοι 14:19

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Romans 14:19

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:00 pm

chonsigirl wrote: "Επομένως ακολουθήστε μετά από τα πράγματα που κάνουν για την ειρήνη, και τα πράγματα με τι κάποιο μπορεί άλλο." Ρωμαίοι 14:19

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Romans 14:19

I have to say, not being a religiously minded person, that usually when people start quoting the bible at each other I start to fall asleep, but quoting in ancient Greek? That is impressive, you keep talking baby. I also hear that you are quite a looker CG, I am becomming even more impressed!

From my own non-religious standpoint the only things I really take to heart in the Bible are to love god and to do unto other as you would have them do unto you, I think if you missed everything else, but still got that, you would be doing alright. Anyway, I think I have to reread the new testament as I need some quotes for previous arguments, so until then I will shut up about the bible, perhaps! :rolleyes:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:05 pm

*pulls up a chair ringside, sits on edge munching popcorn, all of my own free will *

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:27 pm

Far, that was awesome! A real 'thump upside the head' rebuke.

Ted, I don't think that you are a bad person. In fact you come across in your posts as a gentle, intelligent man.

I have real problems with the "All roads lead to the same destination" theory since the 'cosmic goo' church prophesied in the Bible is the one that backs the anti-christ.

"What do the truth and the lie have in common?"

It would be really great if everyone could live in harmony but as long as there;s truth and lies on the same planet it's not going to happen. We get that when Jesus returns.

Here's an interesting essay on the subject. http://www.mslick.com/allmen.htm

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:22 pm

Galbally wrote: I have to say, not being a religiously minded person, that usually when people start quoting the bible at each other I start to fall asleep, but quoting in ancient Greek? That is impressive, you keep talking baby. I also hear that you are quite a looker CG, I am becomming even more impressed!

From my own non-religious standpoint the only things I really take to heart in the Bible are to love god and to do unto other as you would have them do unto you, I think if you missed everything else, but still got that, you would be doing alright. Anyway, I think I have to reread the new testament as I need some quotes for previous arguments, so until then I will shut up about the bible, perhaps! :rolleyes:

I can't quote the Bible either. As BTS has said ....I am firmly based in the agnostic point of view. I tend to stay out of religious threads. This is a really good thread for me NOT to post my opinion - even though I did earlier - free will -vs- divine intervention. Free will rules because without free will there can be no divine intervention. If the God made us this way - with clear thinking and inward knowledge - why would He intervene? It is a game now. Would the God just not sit back and say WHOA - I didn't know there would be so much learning and enthusiasm about about the world I created?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:34 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I can't quote the Bible either. As BTS has said ....I am firmly based in the agnostic point of view. I tend to stay out of religious threads. This is a really good thread for me NOT to post my opinion - even though I did earlier - free will -vs- divine intervention. Free will rules because without free will there can be no divine intervention. If the God made us this way - with clear thinking and inward knowledge - why would He intervene? It is a game now. Would the God just not sit back and say WHOA - I didn't know there would be so much learning and enthusiasm about about the world I created?

I know how you feel, I m amazed at how familiar many people are with the Bible, and Americans in particular seem very good at it, sunday school influence and protestantism perhaps? I 'm no great bible scholar, though its an interesting book it has to be said, though not in the way that some people would think, to my mind. Anyway, I will get back with them quotations, when I can bring myself to open up the big book again, probably round Christmas, seems appropriate.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:08 pm

I personally believe in 'Free Will'....we humans need to take reponsibility for our actions towards ourselves, our friends, relatives, community, environment etc.

People are the 'tools' that make things happen in life...we heal, teach, entertain, nurture, work, promote happiness, generate friendship and peace etc. etc

I like this passage from one of my Buddhist books....

"Life is like a chain. All things are related. When any link is harmed, the other links are affected. We should think of the environment as our mother----Mother soil, Mother sea, Mother Earth. There is no crime worse than harming one's mother.." ....we the people have control of our own lives and as part of the chain, the lives of people around us as well.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:38 pm

Far Rider wrote: Gal, youre an awesome dude. Tell ya what. I'll give you an assignment to make it easy for you. Well a suggestion anyway.

Whatever day you read, say tomorrow the 6th... read Psalm 6, 36, 66, 96, 126 and proverbs 6. If you read on the 7th, start with psalm 7..etc. (add 30) Just look for attributes that are exclusive to God. And write them down. Don't read it looking for something (a verse) imparticular, just read it looking for God.

My favorite passage of scripture is Romans Chapter 6.

Thank you for the advice Far Rider, I think its too late for my soul, but just for trying you should be rewarded. But, never the less, I promise I will do what you ask, just don't expect any miracles.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:43 pm

Comfortably Numb:-6

I do understand what you are saying. However, I do disagree because I believe there is only one way to whatever God has in store for us. Jesus showed us that "way" quite clearly. It is amazing how many other faiths have found the same "way".

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:44 pm

Chonsigirl:-6

Nice touch with the Greek. I enjoy it myself.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:39 pm

Far Rider wrote: No sir! I was not trying to convince you of anything, your soul is your business, I was offering a way for you to start out reading the bible. Thas' all!

Fair enough far, I will follow the instructions anyway and see what happens, and thanks again for the advice, though forgive me in advance if I use quote from the bible later on to argue about certain relgious ideas with you. Its just my way.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:39 pm

Far Rider:-6

I will respond to your post point by point. However I feel that a quote from Theologian Hans Kung's book "On Being a Christian" is important here. Page 467

#1

"Word of God?

As we have said, Christianity is not a book religion. The Scriptures are not themselves divine revelation. They are merely the human testomonies of divine revelation in which the humanity, independence and historicity of the human authors always remains intact. I do not believe first in Scripture or even in its inspiration and then in the truth of themessage it provides. I believe in God who revealed himself in the history of Israel for believers and finally in a liberating message in the person of Jesus, and who is authentically attested in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. My faith arises from Scripturein the sense that the latter provides me with external evidence in an authentic form of this God of Israel and of Jesus Christ. But my faith is ot based onScripture. It is not the book as such, but this God himself in Jesus who is the ground of my faith"

#2

I am pleased that you have found the Bible helpful. So have I.

#3

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says theLord:I willput my law within them and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Also confirmed in Hebrews 8:10

#4

I refer you to Matt 7:1ff. It clearly speaks for itself about judging.

#5

Far Rider, I cannot judge you. That is not my role that belongs to God alone.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:58 pm

Far Rider:-6

The development and presentation of the modern paradigm is not nor was it ever intended to be an attack on anyone or anyone's beliefs.

I present it on the form to show that there are other interpretations in the Christian faith that are as valid as anyone elses. Some folks dislike and cannot or will not try to understand the modern paradigm and that is ok. By the same token others become inspired by the fact that they don't have to take everything literally to follow in the footsteps of our Lord.

There are in fact some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world with many of them claiming to have the sole grasp of the truth. Personally I cannot accept that. However, the centre of our faith is the Risen Lord it is not some doctrine or dogma but Jesus the Christ himself.

Shalom

Ted:-6

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:41 am

FR:

First it is often misquoted as being taught that you should not descern when some one is a swine or a dog or a heathen or a sinner. Lord have mercy! If I catch you in the act of molesting a child should I not descern (judge you to be guilty of such an act? Foolishness! The truth of this passage is that Im not allowed to look into your heart and say unequivacably that your going to hell.. I cant see that well. I dont fully know. But I can look at a mans life and say well based on the fact that he (fill in the blank of some ungodly act) is probably not a belivier.

Thanks for that, mate. That's helped clear up a problem I've had. What you say here made good enough sense to me to understand the difference and why I've never been able to comply with being 'non-judgemental' as I thought it to mean.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:03 am

OpenMind wrote: I believe that we not only have free will, but that we have the will to be able to influence all outcomes. God or no God. If there is a God, then I am like the son who has been left to fend for himself, having never seen his father, let alone speak with him.....

I beg to differ. I believe that we have the right on our actions but not on the outcome of our actions. We can continue taking good actions and God will give good results. To this extent we can say that we can influence the outcome of our actions.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:43 pm

Far Rider:-6

Wow:-6

Lots of questions and I will try to answer them in the spirit asked but it is lunch time now. So I will get back.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:32 pm

Far Rider:-6

LOL.

I will start with my own personal points: married 36years ( a rarity-same wife), 3 children all away from home, 62years of age, retired educator. Other jobs were as a lay preacher in both the United Church of Canada and the Anglican Church of Canada. Anglican by choice for some 35 years.

Education-10 years of university both in theological issues and education. Still continue to take courses as the Vancouver School of Theology.

I'm afraid that we will have to disagree on several things. However, disagreement does not lead to "fighting". While I disgree with some of what you say I do respect you for it. All I have ever been after is understanding and respect. People don't have to believe as I do.

Now to those beliefs. I have been involved in the church since I was probably 4 or 5. I was raised in a Baptist Church but found it very wanting.

My religious experiences have been very broad and very profound. I have experienced the Risen Lord of several occasions. I have relied on meditation and prayer and the Holy Spirit for guidance throughout most of my life. Prayer is in fact a large part of my life and my beliefs. I firmly believe that I have been guided to where I am by the Holy Spirit. I have constantly prayed for understanding and wisdom and God has guided me to churches that were almost unbelievable in their faith and community. In fact under the guidance of the Holy Spirit I have had an absolutely fascinating life.

I have had as teachers or mentors if one likes, Professors of theology, Greek and Hebrew and translation and interpretation and Biblical History at the formal level. I have had much training and education informally as well from Biblical scholars whom I know personally and as friends.. I continue, as I said earlier, to study at the Vancouver School of Theology a well recognized institution. Much of what I accept and believe has been and is talked about within my church and the Seminaries.

I have the same view of the scriptures as Hans Kung. Yes we learn of Jesus from the scriptures however we experience this Jesus and the Holy Spirit within our hearts. It is the experience that convinces us and the Bible simply confirms what we already have experienced.

Presently in my church I am a lay preacher and a member of the Eucharistic Ministry.

You asked about Pluralism. First of all it is not an attempt to make all feel good. Unfortunately that is not the case. It is a recognition that the Holy Spirit has visited all people around the world and been guiding them the a way that they can best understand. Religion is a very cultural issue and different folks understand thingks differently. The major faiths of the world all worship God. There is only one and He is universal. They may call him different names but nonetheless it is God. As Matthew Fox has said it is time that all faiths returned to the spiritual basis that is the foundation of all the great faiths.

The Bible is, I believe, as quoted from "On Being a Christian". It becomes the "Word of Goid" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the Bible not by virtue of its very human authorship. It becomes sacred by the fact of the use to which we put the Bible.

What counts in our world is not dogma or doctrine. These are all man made. What does count is that we both as individuals and in community live in a loving, transforming relationship with the Risen Lord and if not of the Christian persuasion then with God.

My sermon for this Sunday is about the Good News of God inbreaking into human history in the Child Jesus and what exactly this Good News is. That Good News is the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God on earth--The kingdom has come near, the Kingdom is within you etc. It is about: looking after the poor and impoverished, the downtrodden, the outcast, the sick, the lonely the hungry etc.

We find in Matt 25:31ff that Jesus is inviting people into the Kingdom who had no idea they were to be so rewarded ie. when did we see you naked and clothe you etc. His response was in that you did it to the least of these you did it to me. In doing this you accepted me thus enter the Kingdom. Some try to read more into this then there is. However, those additions are not in the Greek. There are no strings attached to the grace of God.

Are all folks good? Of course not but that is not my role to judge that is God's alone and He will be merciful to whom he will be merciful Ex. 3:19 Mercy triumphs over judgment James 2:13 "Then Peter began to speak tothem: ' I truly undrstand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him anddoes what is right is acceptable to him. Acts 10:35. If we check the context of each of these the basic meaning does not change. There are not strings attached to the Grace of God. BTW I have checked this our with two theologians and Bible scholars and they are in agreement.

I'm not sure if I have answered all your questions. Ask if necessary.

Far Rider

When I say shalom I definitely mean it. I have many disagreements with other as well but I do respect their position even though I might disagree. BTW I have many with whom I find agreement and among them folks from average like most of us to scholarly. And you, I am sure, will be able to say the same thing.

I have arrived at this position not lightly. It has taken many years of prayer, Bible reading study, discussion etc.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:33 pm

My heavens. I've outdone myself in lenght. Due to my failing eyesight I try to keep them shorter. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:24 pm

Far Rider:-6

You have written a very powerful and beautiful story. I actually think there is very little difference between you and I. I have seen and experienced many of the things that you have with the except of combat.

My faith is the same as yours the only difference is that I accept the fact, as I understand it, that the Bible cannot be taken literally. However, that does not negate any of the stories that you have accepted as historically accurate. Truth can be presented in many ways and not just as historical fact. One exampe would be the story "Oliver Twist" by Charles Dickens. It is a novel. The story is fiction and yet it is loaded with truth about the days of Charles Dickens.

Why should you give up your faith for mine? First of all they are not different faiths just a different point of view. I wouldn't want you to give up your faith for mine. Since it is a point of view of the traditional Paradigm and it works for you hang in in there real tight.

The traditional paradigm does not work for me and yet you and I both accept the same God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth and the Spirit of Truth known as the Holy Spirit.

I too have had profound exeriences of the Divine and have not only witnessed miracles but experienced them.

I think that we both say "Jesus is Lord" with all the conviction we can muster.

All of this is as it should be. Each of us has a point of view. We see things slightly differently from each other but in the end they are the same thing. You will see a story in the Bible as Historically accurate and I will see it as Midrashic but we both see the truth that it presents.

Once again a very powerful and beautiful story. All I ask of anyone is that they see that I too am a Christian and respect the way I see things somewhat differently. I have not come to my position lightly and neither have you, quite obviously.

Shalom

Ted:-6

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:21 pm

Powerful stuff Far.

Remember in your argument that "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word'

Don't be afraid to let Jesus say what needs to be said.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:53 pm

Time for me to weigh in on this thread:

The Bible declares that we were created with certain God-like qualities. We have a dignity, abilities and spiritual qualities that put us on an altogether different level of being from the animal world. Above all, we were created to exist in a loving relationship both with God and with other humans.

However, love cannot exist where there is not the freedom to choose. When I wanted to marry the woman who is my wife, I didn't take her by the throat and say, "You will love me...or else!" Whether we like it or not, love doesn't work that way. In creating us, God loved us enough to give us the freedom to reject that love. Dante Alighieri in The Divine Comedy says:

"Love cannot exists where there is not the freedom to choose"

The greatest gift which God in his bounty bestowed in creating humans, and the most conformed to his own goodness, and that which he prizes the most, was the freedom of the will.

The problem is that we messed things up. People turned away from God and we have all misused this gift of freewill. We choose alternatives to God.

The Bible declares, "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way" (Isaiah 53:6).

We are not only free to turn away from God, we are free to stay away. That is why hell has been called the greatest monument to human freedom and dignity.

The freedom to choose leads on to another problem - the problem of evil. Who is responsible for the suffering in what was Yugoslavia, or in Somalia, or Rwanda, or Sudan, or Angola? Again, who is responsible for the ecological rape of our planet, the pollution of the oceans and the atmosphere, and the destruction of the forests? Not all suffering is caused by human action, but the greater percentage of it is.

Religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age and Christian Science tend to blur the distinction between good and evil; but not the Bible. We are responsible beings and when we choose evil instead of good, selfishness instead of love, wilfulness instead of God, then we, and others, suffer the consequences. The Bible emphasises strongly the link between suffering and evil. We are members of a fallen and corrupted race, and though still capable of much good, we somehow spoil whatever we put our hand to.

Although we may consider ourselves a little superior to others in the moral realm, we are all part of the problem. Russian author Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who experienced human nature in the raw in the labour camps of Siberia, said:

If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.

It is for this reason that God has not yet intervened to put an end to evil once and for all, as the Bible declares that one day he will. In his mercy he gives us the opportunity to change our ways and turn to him.

It is because of this inseparable link between suffering and evil that God could not deal with one without taking care of the other. The wonder of it all is that God has already acted to deal with the problem of evil through Jesus Christ. In doing so he has ultimately guaranteed the removal of suffering. Richard Halverson, former chaplain to the U. S. Senate, says:

He was the Great Physician, and in the finest tradition of medical science, he was unwilling to remain preoccupied with the symptoms when he could destroy the disease. Jesus Christ was unwilling to settle for anything less than elimination of the cause of all evil in history.

God chose to enter human history in the person of Jesus Christ. He was born in a feeding trough. At the age of one or two his parents took him to Egypt to escape King Herod's slaughter of all the small children in the area. He spent his early years in a foreign country. He grew up in obscurity, probably following his father's trade as a carpenter. He was poor, depending on the support of others for his public ministry.

The Bible teaches that within the Godhead there are three equal Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, commonly spoken of as the Trinity. Jesus, the Son, took on human nature in the womb of Mary.

Throughout his ministry he was accused of being a glutton, a madman, a drunkard, a deceiver, a demon or possessed of the devil, a friend of prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners. He was excommunicated from the synagogue and several times threatened with stoning. His home folks sought to throw him over a cliff.

Finally he was betrayed, deserted by his friends, suffered the worst kind of flogging, and was nailed publicly to a wooden cross. He is described in the Bible as "a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering" (Isaiah 53:3). If Jesus is God, as the New Testament declares, and Christians have always believed, then God knows all about suffering. As Dorothy Sayers wrote in Christian Letters to a Post-Christian World:

The God who gave us the dignity of freedom of choice, then took upon himself the consequences for our wrong choices.

For whatever reason God chose to make people as they are - limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death - he had the honesty and courage to take his own medicine. Whatever game he is playing with his creation, he has kept his own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from us that he has not exacted from himself. He has himself gone through the whole human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair, and death. When he was man, he played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it all worthwhile.

Yet the physical and mental suffering I have described pales into insignificance beside another kind of suffering that Jesus endured on the cross. The Bible says, "Christ carried the burden of our sins" (I John 2:2).

In some remarkable way, when Jesus hung on the cross he was taking on his own shoulders the consequences of the evil of the human race. This is the amazing centrepiece of the gospel story.

So there you have it guys, the God who gave us the dignity of freedom of choice, now takes upon himself the consequences for our wrong choices. "Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God" (1 Peter 3:18). God suffered at the point of our greatest need. And that, for him, meant the greatest possible suffering.

There is freedom of choice and there is a plan, both at the same time.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Far Rider:-6

I have given your response to my posts a fair amount of thought and consideration. I think you are correct when you say that neither of us will convince the other. I simply cannot agree with your view of the Bible and the message as you read it in the Bible. Neither can be supported historically, archaeologically or scientifically.

Now you are basing your position on faith and I do respect you for that stand though I disagree.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:02 pm

There is so much to take from eveyone's ideas and beliefs. Is that the point of spirituality? It is individual concern about one another, the respect we have for each person's soul. I really think we want the same things and most times it is a matter of religious and scientific semantics that get in the way of "Divine Intervention vs Free Will" I doubt there will be an answer ,,, for it is the discussion of it that keeps us from being followers - no matter our beliefs..

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:46 am

Hi Accountable. What's your idea? Just reading the thread?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:00 pm

Far Rider:-6

I would certainly hope so. However, I will still add in my take when I feel it appropriate.

Shalom

Ted:-6

RacialBridge · Post by **RacialBridge** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:14 pm

God gave you free wiil and added, that you are in his image. Now add the to the part about "god returning" and you'll figure out that we are on our own in basic day to day stuff, he even metioned leaving us till his return ( cant return if you never leave, cause duh). But dont fret, there are safegaurds built into the system. It is wild to think that god would create us, only to need another to return to him. Also pay close attention to your conscience and your first voice., they are the safegaurds, along with prayer. and if in fact we are in his image, why is blasphemy even a word? God is great, but he is also not found in religion. Ever notice that Jesus tears up every church he entered? ask questions of god not pastors, preists and reverands, thats how you gain faith that sticks to your ribs. and one more thing. jesus did not exist until he was born, then he ascended to heaven. he was a part of the essence of god, begotten (key word, humans are begot, not gods) and born as a man to go through are existence as a peer, to understand why we fail. proof is before christ god killed the world plenty, after none. think, your brain is in his image too, use it. and in the meantime treat others how you'd wanna be, and love peolpe not stuff, cause duhhhhh!!!

ComfortablyNumb · Post by **ComfortablyNumb** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:48 pm

Ted wrote: Far Rider:-6

I have given your response to my posts a fair amount of thought and consideration. I think you are correct when you say that neither of us will convince the other. I simply cannot agree with your view of the Bible and the message as you read it in the Bible. Neither can be supported historically, archaeologically or scientifically.

Now you are basing your position on faith and I do respect you for that stand though I disagree.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted. With all of your years and experience of exegesis it would be very difficult to formulate an argument based on pure reason, science or archaology. I can only say that the more learned you are the more difficult it is to give up all preconceived notions and become like Paul -

'I determined to know nothing but Christ, and Him crucified'

The kingdom of Heaven is not just open to those of learning (in fact in the Bible the Pharisees were the teachers and Jesus rebuked them) but is open to all with simple faith. Jesus (the Word) speaks to them and they believe it. End of story.

How does the scripture go? "Unless you become like these little children...'

Faith is your responsibility - Your response to God's ability.

I don't think it's a good start on the route to heaven to doubt God, His Word or his method and purposes. That's like calling him a liar.

Your thinking is dangerous. 'How I wish that you were hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth'.

'Not everyone who says Father Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do the will of my Father'

Will = Testament The new Testament is our covenant, our inheritance. Believe it.