The origins and the development of the Bible are of the utmost importance to understanding this profound Book. What is the Bible? How did it come to be? What does archaeology have to say? Is it literal, inerrant history and truth?
The modern approach to the Bible is called the Historical/Metaphorical method. To me the Bible has become much more profound then it ever was when I took the fundamentalist/literalist approach.
The Bible has for me become the "Word of God" because God speaks to us/me through the writings of this profound document. We must learn to discern the word of God from the very human words in which the Bible is written.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
The Bible
My daughter is very interested in reading the bible. She is nine. I told her I would try to find a more child oriented version so she didn't have to make it through all the begats. I am hoping this thread will help me to have positive discussions with her about the stories in the bible.
Do you know a good children's bible?
Do you know a good children's bible?
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greydeadhead
- Posts: 1045
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The Bible
That's great Koan. If I think of a good one I will let you know. I really believe that the Bible, Koran, Torah... and any other "books of belief" so to speak should be required reading.. (I know I missed some here). Not so much to try and sway anyone from one belief to another, but to better understand why people think the way they do. It would probably be a great first step to ending some of the senseless acts that use religion as thier basis today.
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
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capt_buzzard
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Good one Ted. More, more more
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koan :-6
I will see what I can find in terms of a child's Bible.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I will see what I can find in terms of a child's Bible.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
The first five books of the Bible called the Pentateuch have been traditionally assigned to the great leader Moses or Moshe. It is now known that this is simply not the facts. These books were transmitted orally for several centuries many of the stories actually borrowed and either used without change on changed to suit the Hebrew sentiments. Some of the stories were borrowed from the Babylonians, the Sumarians and the Mesopotamians.
Finally, probably during the Babylonian exile, using several sources and versions of the stories they were compiled into the Pentateuch. Moses had absolutely nothing to do with it othe then being part of the story.
The very existence of Moses is questionable.
As far as archaeology is concerned there is absolutley no evidence anywhere for the Exodus story as writtten in the Bible. It may have been a smaller tribe that escaped or it may relate to the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta.
None of this however, should, negate the truths that are being told in myth, legend and folktale. This is an important story in the Jewish religious history and is meant to convey such truths as: God created, God saves his people, God delivers people from bondage whether the bondage of actual slavery or the bondage of unhealth behaviours. The story of Noah is a great one for presenting the truth about the nature of man.
The Adam and Eve story are an ancient attempt to try to understand where man came from and why he does in fact behave or misbehave as he does. It does this quite well.
There is much truth to be found in the Pentateuch. Historically it gave a good picture of how many of the folks in the age of pre-history lived and in what they lived.
It presents us with their culture and their belief systems. It was they response to their experiences of the divine. That is a whole other topic.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Finally, probably during the Babylonian exile, using several sources and versions of the stories they were compiled into the Pentateuch. Moses had absolutely nothing to do with it othe then being part of the story.
The very existence of Moses is questionable.
As far as archaeology is concerned there is absolutley no evidence anywhere for the Exodus story as writtten in the Bible. It may have been a smaller tribe that escaped or it may relate to the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta.
None of this however, should, negate the truths that are being told in myth, legend and folktale. This is an important story in the Jewish religious history and is meant to convey such truths as: God created, God saves his people, God delivers people from bondage whether the bondage of actual slavery or the bondage of unhealth behaviours. The story of Noah is a great one for presenting the truth about the nature of man.
The Adam and Eve story are an ancient attempt to try to understand where man came from and why he does in fact behave or misbehave as he does. It does this quite well.
There is much truth to be found in the Pentateuch. Historically it gave a good picture of how many of the folks in the age of pre-history lived and in what they lived.
It presents us with their culture and their belief systems. It was they response to their experiences of the divine. That is a whole other topic.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
Midrash is both an ancient and modern term used in Jewish worship. Originally it was both a form of writing and interpretation.
When an important event happened in the Jewish religious life they often told the story in terms of a prior imporant event. The most important event in their story is the Exodus, the escape from slavery into freedom. When Joshua eventually reached the promised land he is said to have crossed the Jordan river on dry land. This is very appropriate because it gives the same value to the entrance as it does to the Exodus.
The birth stories of Jesus are Midrashic. When the evangelists came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed the Messiah they searched the scriptures for things that seemed to fortell His coming. It was very appropriate to use those in telling of His birth. This is not meant to disceive. The writers and readers knew what was happening. But it did give to this event the same value that they ascribed to the coming Messiah. It was their way of acknowledging that Jesus was in fact the Messaih to come.
Lest anyone ask. There is no doubt among most of the world's Biblical scholars that the very human Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who lived generally as the gospels describe and was ultimately crucified for being a "**** disturber". Sorry I can't think of a better way to put it. He was disrupting society and the authorities feared a revolution, though that was not Jesus intent, and dealt with him the way the dealt with all revolutionaries, crucifixion.
Shalom
Ted :-6
When an important event happened in the Jewish religious life they often told the story in terms of a prior imporant event. The most important event in their story is the Exodus, the escape from slavery into freedom. When Joshua eventually reached the promised land he is said to have crossed the Jordan river on dry land. This is very appropriate because it gives the same value to the entrance as it does to the Exodus.
The birth stories of Jesus are Midrashic. When the evangelists came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed the Messiah they searched the scriptures for things that seemed to fortell His coming. It was very appropriate to use those in telling of His birth. This is not meant to disceive. The writers and readers knew what was happening. But it did give to this event the same value that they ascribed to the coming Messiah. It was their way of acknowledging that Jesus was in fact the Messaih to come.
Lest anyone ask. There is no doubt among most of the world's Biblical scholars that the very human Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who lived generally as the gospels describe and was ultimately crucified for being a "**** disturber". Sorry I can't think of a better way to put it. He was disrupting society and the authorities feared a revolution, though that was not Jesus intent, and dealt with him the way the dealt with all revolutionaries, crucifixion.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
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I'm with you here and reading with interest. :-6
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Capt :-6
I just dropped off greetings on the merry Christmas thread in Ireland. Rather interesting place that. I will visit the site more often.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I just dropped off greetings on the merry Christmas thread in Ireland. Rather interesting place that. I will visit the site more often.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
you know what, it doesn't matter to me, get a life--before it is too late..dream on --god. he is not coming back. see-ya... :-6 bible, the book of words--from long ago, does the bible mention whats going on now, no, i did'nt think so...give up..? 
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
Ha! Paula, you just can't resist the temptation to make people annoyed. Good try.
You seem to like what the bible has to say about gay marriage and now, apparently, it's a load of crap. I guess you missed the part about what happens to **** disturbers.
Carry on Ted :-6
You seem to like what the bible has to say about gay marriage and now, apparently, it's a load of crap. I guess you missed the part about what happens to **** disturbers.
Carry on Ted :-6
The Bible
i am not a *****, i just speak as i feel, god would not appreciate the way you treat me, God loves every-one, at least thats what they say. :wah:
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
Paula :-6
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to agree with you but that is OK. As far as the Bible having any value today. It is a a shame to ignore the great wisdom of the past ages because one does not understand the Bible.
It indeed has much to day to today but one must sincerenly be looking for it rather then just something to shoot at.
Shalom
Ted :-6
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to agree with you but that is OK. As far as the Bible having any value today. It is a a shame to ignore the great wisdom of the past ages because one does not understand the Bible.
It indeed has much to day to today but one must sincerenly be looking for it rather then just something to shoot at.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
I don't know many or hear of (too) many having time or (caring) to read the bible? Most of the time people who are interested are going through a phase or feel their faults will be blessed away? You can read the Bible, its not for me, thats all? I am not religious. It is to me the book of life, yes it has lots to offer. If more people read we would have more values about life and morals? was that good or what???
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
Paula :-6
May you indeed find peace on your path.
There are lots of folks those who not only read the Bible but spend a great deal of time studying it and related books and writings. They are not bored by it but in fact get a great deal of satisfaction out of their work.
However, we must each choose our own path and each of us meets some very interesting folks on the journey. Good luck;
Shalom
Ted :-6
May you indeed find peace on your path.
There are lots of folks those who not only read the Bible but spend a great deal of time studying it and related books and writings. They are not bored by it but in fact get a great deal of satisfaction out of their work.
However, we must each choose our own path and each of us meets some very interesting folks on the journey. Good luck;
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
For those interested Numbers 31 contains a rather interesting story. In this story it would appear that God both condones and promotes war crimes. During the invasion of the promised land God apparently tells the Hebrew soldiers that they are to kill every man woman and child, in other words take not prisoners with one exception. The Hebrew soldiers are allowed to keep all the virgins for their own pleasure. Then they can marry them or discard them.
I'll say one thing for sure the writer sure understood soldiers very well. They really haven't changed either.
Now that does not come from God. It was the writers interpretation of events. In fact most scholars think it is a much later addition, to the book of Numbers, by the redactors. Like I have said we must learn to disceren the word of God in the very human words of the Bible.
BTW if anyone is reading the Bible skip the "begats" part it will drive you up the wall and add nothing to your understanding. LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
I'll say one thing for sure the writer sure understood soldiers very well. They really haven't changed either.
Now that does not come from God. It was the writers interpretation of events. In fact most scholars think it is a much later addition, to the book of Numbers, by the redactors. Like I have said we must learn to disceren the word of God in the very human words of the Bible.
BTW if anyone is reading the Bible skip the "begats" part it will drive you up the wall and add nothing to your understanding. LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
I will make a few comments on the Gospels. Their authorship is generally questionable.
They are divided into the synoptic Gospels which are the first 3 and the Gospel of John which is much more theological then the other three. The synoptic gospels generally give more of the life and teachings of Jesus then does the Gospel of John. In fact according to many Biblical scholars the words asscribed to Jesus in the Gospel of John are really the words of the evangelist who is reflecting the beliefs and traditions of the church at the end of the first century. They are feflecting what the church had come to believe about this Jeshua of Nazareth.
In fact all the gosples reflect the developing traditions of the church at the time they were written. They are based both on history remembered and tradition.
Scholars have been able to make a reasonable list of the words that they believe actually go back to the historical Jesus as compared to the words that probably reflect quite accurately what Jesus had taught but do not go back to the historical Jesus. The other groups of sayings are the words that the evangelists had put into the mouth of Jesus reflecting what they had come to believe about Jesus and who he was and what he was..
In fact Paul's writings began before the Gospels were composed and the Gospels were composed over a period from about 65CE to 110CE. It is not likely that the author of John ever personally met Jesus. In fact the authorship is quite qestionable at this present time.
Nevertleless the Gospels have come to represent for Christians the "Word of God" because God speaks to us through the Gospels not because of their authorship or timing. There were many other Gospels written but the four were chosen to be in the Canon by the early church fathers because they seemed to best describe and present the real message of Yeshua of Nazareth.
Shalom
Ted :-6
They are divided into the synoptic Gospels which are the first 3 and the Gospel of John which is much more theological then the other three. The synoptic gospels generally give more of the life and teachings of Jesus then does the Gospel of John. In fact according to many Biblical scholars the words asscribed to Jesus in the Gospel of John are really the words of the evangelist who is reflecting the beliefs and traditions of the church at the end of the first century. They are feflecting what the church had come to believe about this Jeshua of Nazareth.
In fact all the gosples reflect the developing traditions of the church at the time they were written. They are based both on history remembered and tradition.
Scholars have been able to make a reasonable list of the words that they believe actually go back to the historical Jesus as compared to the words that probably reflect quite accurately what Jesus had taught but do not go back to the historical Jesus. The other groups of sayings are the words that the evangelists had put into the mouth of Jesus reflecting what they had come to believe about Jesus and who he was and what he was..
In fact Paul's writings began before the Gospels were composed and the Gospels were composed over a period from about 65CE to 110CE. It is not likely that the author of John ever personally met Jesus. In fact the authorship is quite qestionable at this present time.
Nevertleless the Gospels have come to represent for Christians the "Word of God" because God speaks to us through the Gospels not because of their authorship or timing. There were many other Gospels written but the four were chosen to be in the Canon by the early church fathers because they seemed to best describe and present the real message of Yeshua of Nazareth.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
Ted, if it wasn't for you, i would have never known that...thank you so much...continue.. 
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
Another neat issue is the one of prophesy. According to Bernhardt Anderson, a Biblical speicalist, OT, prophesy was not meant to tell aobut things that were going to happen in years or centuries later. Propheshy was a comment made by the prophet on his own times. He was callling the people back to God and to reasonable behaviour as the people of God.
Folks often mistakenly read the Book of Revelation as one referring to the last days. This is simply not the fact according to Biblical translator J. B Philips. John whomever he was, was speaking to the people his day in a way that the Christians of the day would understand but not the Roman authorities. The real keys to the meanings of a lot of what he said are long lost in history and can probably never be recovered.
Nevertheless we can read in the book words of wisdom that still hold true for today.
I do have a good laugh at those who make a business of using it to stree the last days and that they are about to come upon us. They certainly have creative minds that can stretch things out rather well but they are preaching nonsense.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Folks often mistakenly read the Book of Revelation as one referring to the last days. This is simply not the fact according to Biblical translator J. B Philips. John whomever he was, was speaking to the people his day in a way that the Christians of the day would understand but not the Roman authorities. The real keys to the meanings of a lot of what he said are long lost in history and can probably never be recovered.
Nevertheless we can read in the book words of wisdom that still hold true for today.
I do have a good laugh at those who make a business of using it to stree the last days and that they are about to come upon us. They certainly have creative minds that can stretch things out rather well but they are preaching nonsense.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
I wonder why people are so drawn to believe in the end of the world. "Proof" of the prophecy is watched for and anticipated on an hourly basis. I, personally, have better things to do with my time. Now if you say "the end of the world as we know it" then I say Yeah! Bring it on!
The Bible
Our DNA if not worthwhile when we are dead is not really worthwhile while we are alive.
I like the idea that the end of the world merely represents death but differ, I think, on that death is not the end of the world in total but only as we know it. But then, I do believe that personality must eventually be surrendered so that could be seen as a complete stop. Death means we are worthless?
I like the idea that the end of the world merely represents death but differ, I think, on that death is not the end of the world in total but only as we know it. But then, I do believe that personality must eventually be surrendered so that could be seen as a complete stop. Death means we are worthless?
The Bible
Attorney says Bible guided mother who severed baby's arms; A mother who admitted killing her baby daughter by severing the girl's arms was guided by a Bible passage in which Jesus refers to cutting off body parts to cast away sin. Having a history of mental illness, has referred to the New Testament passage; In the book of Matthew, Jesus says: "If thy right hand offend thee: cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell..the 35 year old woman was charged with capital murder.
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
Paula wrote: Attorney says Bible guided mother who severed baby's arms; A mother who admitted killing her baby daughter by severing the girl's arms was guided by a Bible passage in which Jesus refers to cutting off body parts to cast away sin. Having a history of mental illness, has referred to the New Testament passage; In the book of Matthew, Jesus says: "If thy right hand offend thee: cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell..the 35 year old woman was charged with capital murder.
There are crazy people everywhere who choose a source be it bible, song lyrics or their dog to justify antisocial behaviour. If someone decided to kill everyone named Paula would it be your fault? :wah:
There are crazy people everywhere who choose a source be it bible, song lyrics or their dog to justify antisocial behaviour. If someone decided to kill everyone named Paula would it be your fault? :wah:
The Bible
koan :-6
You are quite correct. There are Christian cults in the states that follow a passage in the Bible that says if they have faith they will not be bitten by poisonous snakes or scorpions. Thanks but no thanks.
The mentally ill can find a directive in almost anything to justify their actions. It truly is a pity.
None of this is the message of the historical Jesus or the Risen Lord. But it is another example of literalism gone "wild" if that term even fits.
Shalom
Ted :-6
You are quite correct. There are Christian cults in the states that follow a passage in the Bible that says if they have faith they will not be bitten by poisonous snakes or scorpions. Thanks but no thanks.
The mentally ill can find a directive in almost anything to justify their actions. It truly is a pity.
None of this is the message of the historical Jesus or the Risen Lord. But it is another example of literalism gone "wild" if that term even fits.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
I'm one of those who never considers the "end of the age" or the end of the world. People, expecially the Jehovah Witnesses have predited the end so many times. In fact there is a web site whose URL I lost when my last computer died that listed all the times throughout history when the end was predicted.
Even Jesus believed it would be soon at that time. But he also said that no one except the Father knew for sure and that we shouldn't concern ourselves with it.
Our job is to make the world a better place to live not worry about the end of time or the afterlife.
Personally I accept the concept of the afterlife but have absolutel no idea what it is or entails. I will leave it and trust that up to God and get on with my "mission".
Shalom
Ted :-6
Even Jesus believed it would be soon at that time. But he also said that no one except the Father knew for sure and that we shouldn't concern ourselves with it.
Our job is to make the world a better place to live not worry about the end of time or the afterlife.
Personally I accept the concept of the afterlife but have absolutel no idea what it is or entails. I will leave it and trust that up to God and get on with my "mission".
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
koan wrote: There are crazy people everywhere who choose a source be it bible, song lyrics or their dog to justify antisocial behaviour. If someone decided to kill everyone named Paula would it be your fault? :wah:
Koan, You liked my evidence of the name "miriam" and My Hub -- Had bumps of knowing she was in our house...rembember?
Koan, You liked my evidence of the name "miriam" and My Hub -- Had bumps of knowing she was in our house...rembember?
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
The Bible
The ancient Hebrews had a completely different approach to philosophy then we do. The followed a more oriental approach. I will explain.
In the Book of Genesis there are two major stories of creation that are not reconcilable. In fact there is a third one but that is immaterial.
In the ancient days if one approached a Hebrew and said that creation happened as per story # one he would immediately agree. Then if you pointed out story # 2 he would also immediately agree. If you were to then say "you mean it happened both ways" he would respond with "Yes of course." They could see nothing wrong with this form of thinking. It was part of their lifestyle and thought processes.
Dr. N. Wagner
Next time I will adress the settlement of the "Promised Land". The story is rather surprising and you may find it interesting.
Shalom
Ted :-6
In the Book of Genesis there are two major stories of creation that are not reconcilable. In fact there is a third one but that is immaterial.
In the ancient days if one approached a Hebrew and said that creation happened as per story # one he would immediately agree. Then if you pointed out story # 2 he would also immediately agree. If you were to then say "you mean it happened both ways" he would respond with "Yes of course." They could see nothing wrong with this form of thinking. It was part of their lifestyle and thought processes.
Dr. N. Wagner
Next time I will adress the settlement of the "Promised Land". The story is rather surprising and you may find it interesting.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
Ted,
I find that most interesting that they could see both stories to be true. On a similar note, I find women are capable of accepting contradictions much more easily than men. Not to start another man/women debate...please. Modern times with our media and taste for winning arguements, facts must be FACTS. I can see how the culture in which the bible was written could have trouble in the culture that has (d)evolved.
Paula,
My example was an hypothesis that crossed my mind as I searched for one and was too funny to resist. Hope you laugh with me.
I find that most interesting that they could see both stories to be true. On a similar note, I find women are capable of accepting contradictions much more easily than men. Not to start another man/women debate...please. Modern times with our media and taste for winning arguements, facts must be FACTS. I can see how the culture in which the bible was written could have trouble in the culture that has (d)evolved.
Paula,
My example was an hypothesis that crossed my mind as I searched for one and was too funny to resist. Hope you laugh with me.
The Bible
koan :-6
That difficulty of philosophy is one of the reasons that the metaphorical/historical approach is helpful. It is an attmept to understand the times in which something was written and of course midrash was the style so that too is important in understanding what was written and how it might apply today.
Shalom
Ted :-6
That difficulty of philosophy is one of the reasons that the metaphorical/historical approach is helpful. It is an attmept to understand the times in which something was written and of course midrash was the style so that too is important in understanding what was written and how it might apply today.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
According to Finkelstein and Silberman in their book "The Bible Unearthed" there is no evidence for a massive invasion of Canaan as described in the Bible. It is more then likely that it was a long slow process of migration both from outside as well as internal.
It seems likely that the folks who ultimately became the Hebrew as we know them came generally from within Canaan. There was a group of lowland people who had a religion of monotheism with some very strict rules. The evidence points to the fact that these lowland folks moved into the highlands and set up their own system of communities with their own religious faith. That group and their faith eventually became the Jewish people.
This is not to say that they were not joined by some folks from outside such as some from Egypt. There is simply no evidence of any massive invasion.
Shalom
Ted :-6
It seems likely that the folks who ultimately became the Hebrew as we know them came generally from within Canaan. There was a group of lowland people who had a religion of monotheism with some very strict rules. The evidence points to the fact that these lowland folks moved into the highlands and set up their own system of communities with their own religious faith. That group and their faith eventually became the Jewish people.
This is not to say that they were not joined by some folks from outside such as some from Egypt. There is simply no evidence of any massive invasion.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Bible
So what might "invasion" have meant to them at the time of writing the story?
The Bible
koan :-6
It seems to me that the story is midrashic. It begins with a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands and is a fitting end to that story. Once again adding value points, if you will to show how important the creation of a Jewish people was. It adds to the story that God saves his people which is one of the main thrusts of the whole OT as well as the NT
Now our interpretation of "God saves his people" is really a different story and not one of war and invasion and killing. That is why the OT must be read in light of the NT and what it is teaching.
Shalom
Ted :-6
It seems to me that the story is midrashic. It begins with a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands and is a fitting end to that story. Once again adding value points, if you will to show how important the creation of a Jewish people was. It adds to the story that God saves his people which is one of the main thrusts of the whole OT as well as the NT
Now our interpretation of "God saves his people" is really a different story and not one of war and invasion and killing. That is why the OT must be read in light of the NT and what it is teaching.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
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The Bible
We live in The Bible v The Koran :-5