Counter Crusade

[Mike CT]

Grey quote

Okay.. I give up..

vegans are humble and compassionate.. towards animals.. but what about other people.. or don't they rate in your world..

reply

I am a Democrat and support the needs of the citizens of our country like:

Worker unions

Universal health care

Retirement pensions

A minimum wage scale for a decent subsistence level.

Clean air and water for a healthy environmemt.

On the other hand the republican religious right(?) preach to the people about being born again so we can go to heaven.

Well, you cannot go to heaven if you do not have a decent job and wage level to be happy.

I support the Christian Gospel to inform the Pharisees (the ruling wealthy) of the needs of the poor and the sick as Christ was trying to do before they finally got that savage Pilate to crucify him.

I think the pope is trying to tell us to suffer for the wealthy so they can stuff themselves with more dollars.

Mike CT

[Accountable]

Mike CT wrote: [...]



Well, you cannot go to heaven if you do not have a decent job and wage level to be happy.

[....]
:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl
Now THAT'S funny! What wage level gets one into heaven nowadays? :wah:



I accuse you of being a swizzle stick.

[greydeadhead]

To Mike..

All worthy goals and I don't say that sarcastically.. I do agree with them ..

But how do you plan on supporting them...

the "rich" have the means to safely protect their fortunes

the "poor" don't make enuff to help support the programs you describe

sooooooo...

that leaves the fastest shrinking segement of our population.. the soon to be extinct middle class to support your endeavors..

Trust me.. I know what I am talking bout here..

the state I live in is trying to figure out a "universal health care program" (actually they should call it subsidized health care, universal would mean that all the residents of the state would have access not just the underinsured or uninsured.).... biggest sticking point.. funding..

and fyi.. I am an independent.. I vote for whoever I think can do the best job.. and right now, I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle that is worthy of support..

[Ted]

Far Rider:-6

Ah, ok. LOL.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Mike CT]

Accountable quote

Now THAT'S funny! What wage level gets one into heaven nowadays?

Reply

When you do not have any more financial problems.

Grey quote

Trust me.. I know what I am talking bout here..

the state I live in is trying to figure out a "universal health care program" (actually they should call it subsidized health care, universal would mean that all the residents of the state would have access not just the under insured or uninsured.).... biggest sticking point.. funding..

and fyi.. I am an independent.. I vote for whoever I think can do the best job.. and right now, I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle that is worthy of support.

Reply

That is because the republicans consider any legislation on behalf of the people as socialism.

Can you believe that?

Our Constitution says that the government is a servant of the people and so they consider the corporations as the people. Ha Ha

All industrialized nations have universal health care. And our country which prides itself as a peoples government is a joke. Why?

Well, the answer is the system of electing our government because it allows ‘corruption’.

The quickest way to get rid of this corruption is to promote the ‘Public Financing of Our Elections’. That should also ban all private dollars from this process because this is a government function and only government monies should be involved.

A current quick solution to the ‘drug subsidy’ is to DUMP the current Bush plan that TAPS the US Treasury and open up the world market for the seniors. Let the US drug companies compete on the world market. You will see the drug prices drop then to a more reasonable level. Guess who would lose out here?



Far Rider quote

.Mike youre a button pusher, fool.

Reply

Well, if the capitalists can dream and make millions, why can’t I dream and try to restore our government to follow the dictates of our Constitution? I can dream, can’t I?

Besides, it would transform our Democracy to a true Christian mentality of serving the people instead of telling us to suffer and for whom?

Mike CT

[Accountable]

Mike CT wrote: Accountable quote

Now THAT'S funny! What wage level gets one into heaven nowadays?



Reply

When you do not have any more financial problems. That happens at death, m'friend. It's too subjective.



Mike CT wrote: [...]

The quickest way to get rid of this corruption is to promote the ‘Public Financing of Our Elections’. That should also ban all private dollars from this process because this is a government function and only government monies should be involved.I agree with this 100%. Categorically, unequivocably, definitely! Everybody gets the same funding, every idea gets the same weight. Not gonna happen, but wouldn't it be great!

Mike CT wrote: A current quick solution to the ‘drug subsidy’ is to DUMP the current Bush plan that TAPS the US Treasury and open up the world market for the seniors. Let the US drug companies compete on the world market. You will see the drug prices drop then to a more reasonable level. Guess who would lose out here?I'm clueless on what you're talking about here. Do you have some references where I can read up? My understanding is that price controls in other countries means the drug companies use us to make their profits.

[Ted]

Mike:-6

I can agree with your list in general but I would change the line about getting to heaven.

As in education it is hard to reach peaople with any message of hope or good will when they do not have a roof over their heads and their bellies are empty.

And Jesus use of the word 'Justice" according to Crossand and Borg refers to distributive justice. I don think this means that we totally emply the bank accounts of the rich but should work towards some form of justice where enough money can be raised to look after the basic needs that all folks have. Jesus was hoping for an egalitarian society.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Mike CT]

Accountable quote

I'm clueless on what you're talking about here. Do you have some references where I can read up? My understanding is that price controls in other countries means the drug companies use us to make their profits

reply

The drug market for the seniors is 'restricted' to the US. If it was opened up to a 'world wide' market as the labor market is for the corporations, than they could buy cheaper drugs as the corporations buy cheaper labor.

This way, the drug companies would have to compete against the WWM prices. Their profits would shrink accordingly and this would not cost the US Treasury one cent as the Bush plan does.

Ted

I have posted on other discussion groups that our economic system is disfunctional because our government has been lowering the top level income tax for the wealthy minority and then opening the world market for cheap labor to create further inequities.

My opinion is to raise the top level income tax to 95% on 'surplus income' (excess or unneeded income). With this added income, the government can create more jobs where needed. At the same time, raise the minimum wage to a livable level. This would increase the mass purchasing power for these people to buy more goods because these lower income people spend all their dollars instead of hoarding them like the top level earners do.

This increased spending creates more jobs which creates more purchasing powerr to keep spiraling upward for a prosperous economy.

The current plight of potential bankruptcies could then be eliminated.

Mike CT

[BTS]

Ted wrote: Mike:-6

I can agree with your list in general but I would change the line about getting to heaven.

As in education it is hard to reach peaople with any message of hope or good will when they do not have a roof over their heads and their bellies are empty.

And Jesus use of the word 'Justice" according to Crossand and Borg refers to distributive justice. I don think this means that we totally emply the bank accounts of the rich but should work towards some form of justice where enough money can be raised to look after the basic needs that all folks have. Jesus was hoping for an egalitarian society.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted I think if you force people to give monies to a failed govt. program you are doing more harm than good.

Let the private sector take care of this and not another govt. funded flop.

"We should measure welfare's success by how many people leave welfare, not by how many are added."

Ronald Reagan

[Ted]

BTS:-6

First of all Jesus was most concerned about "Justice". Now, as Christians we have no choice but to echo that concern and do something about it. Our societies are in error if they tolerate injustice and poverty.

I wish I had a good answer but it seems to me it is something that societ must come to grips with. If private enterprise were to deal with it it would at best be patchy and lack any form of uniformity. Also if private enterprise were to look after it then there would be the profit factor to be included. Somehow or another it seems to me to be highly inappropriate for profit to be part of such an exercise.

Perhaps the churches might be part of the solution? I don't know.

I think the solution must lie in the collectivity of the society in one way or another.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Mike CT wrote: Accountable quote

I'm clueless on what you're talking about here. Do you have some references where I can read up? My understanding is that price controls in other countries means the drug companies use us to make their profits



reply

The drug market for the seniors is 'restricted' to the US. If it was opened up to a 'world wide' market as the labor market is for the corporations, than they could buy cheaper drugs as the corporations buy cheaper labor.

This way, the drug companies would have to compete against the WWM prices. Their profits would shrink accordingly and this would not cost the US Treasury one cent as the Bush plan does.What you're talking about is doing away with the FDA, which I'm frankly ambivalent about. Drugs are cheaper elsewhere because other gov'ts have cost controls. The US gov't restricts international drug purchases because one can get drugs without FDA clearance (yay freedom, imo). I'm okay with lifting the restriction because adults can make their own decisions. However, the risk is that the drug industry could be virtually destroyed because they won't have money for r&d. Another one will take it's place, but it may take awhile.



Mike CT wrote: Ted

I have posted on other discussion groups that our economic system is disfunctional because our government has been lowering the top level income tax for the wealthy minority and then opening the world market for cheap labor to create further inequities.

My opinion is to raise the top level income tax to 95% on 'surplus income' (excess or unneeded income). With this added income, the government can create more jobs where needed. At the same time, raise the minimum wage to a livable level. This would increase the mass purchasing power for these people to buy more goods because these lower income people spend all their dollars instead of hoarding them like the top level earners do.

This increased spending creates more jobs which creates more purchasing powerr to keep spiraling upward for a prosperous economy.

The current plight of potential bankruptcies could then be eliminated.



Mike CTWho gets to decide the arbitrary number that would be 'surplus income'?

Why raise the minimum wage? High school kids get the minimum wage jobs. They don't need a 'living wage'. I have yet to meet someone who is the head of a household works a minimum wage job as primary income. The minimum wage debate is a red herring to keep us from discussing issues that are actually important.

You want the poor to be not poor? Stop giving them things they don't have to work for.

[Accountable]

Ted wrote: BTS:-6



First of all Jesus was most concerned about "Justice". Now, as Christians we have no choice but to echo that concern and do something about it. Our societies are in error if they tolerate injustice and poverty. Ted, I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to separate poverty from injustice. So many people mistakenly (imo) equate the two. I'm glad you separated them because I agree that they have no relation other than incidental.



Our society doesn't tolerate poverty. The people who wallow in poverty tolerate poverty. I was poor. Now I'm not. As long as I was given everything I wanted for free, that's exactly the value I place on it - zero. It was absolute justice that I was poor until I found a way up.



Our glorious nation, in the tradition of our God, grants our citizens Pursuit of Happiness, arguably our most important freedom. Few people have to remain poor. The only thing we need to figure out is how to give them hope. They have everything else they need.



Ted wrote: I wish I had a good answer but it seems to me it is something that societ must come to grips with. If private enterprise were to deal with it it would at best be patchy and lack any form of uniformity. Also if private enterprise were to look after it then there would be the profit factor to be included. Somehow or another it seems to me to be highly inappropriate for profit to be part of such an exercise.



Perhaps the churches might be part of the solution? I don't know.



I think the solution must lie in the collectivity of the society in one way or another.[...]Profit motive has done wonderful things in our society. Private enterprise run more efficient prisons. In some small towns, private enterprise has joined with school boards to provide better-educated students so that the company has a higher-quality pool of potential employees. Profit is not bad. Abuse and mismanagement is bad. Look at New Orleans. If a private company had been in charge of those levees, they would have been maintained better because private enterprise cannot wash their hands of contractual responsibilities - not without disolving altogether.

[Ted]

Accountable:-6

I would agree that private enterprise has its place. Capitalism has its place. Both unbridled are a curse.

Poverty tolerated is justice denied. I'm not sure what your unemployment rate is but ours is about 5.5%. Most of these folks want to work at reasonable and decent jobs but they are in fact non-existent here in Canada. And now another paper mill nearby is closing putting another 363 people out of work just before Christmas. With the messages we are getting from the car manufacturers there will be several thousand more very shortly. Job creation does not keep pace with the number of unemployed.

I've experienced privitization in a local hospital. The hospital is not as clean and there are more infections being picked up there then before. The food is worse then terrible. The fresh fuit my wife used to bring me was far more palatable. Even a takeout from MacD's would have been better.

Several folks here on the forum have told me that if, in the US, you are poor your health care is looked after. If you are rich there is no problem. However, a serious health concern to a middle class person reduces them to third world status very quickly.



Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Life's tough. We have phenominally few truly poverty-stricken people here in North America. We have it so much better than everybody else, but just can't see it. No matter how wealthy the poorest of us becomes, they will still be the poorest of us, and therefore poor.



It sounds like you have hundreds of skilled people up there that can't find work someone else is willing to give them. That's not the only way to find work. Skills are transferrable, meaning mechanical ability or other abilities can be used in a variety of situations, not just the specific job they had been performing.



It sucks that their jobs are gone. It really sucks that their hard-won benefits were taken away. What sucks most is that people can't see the vast opportunity that lies before them.



Life's tough. Man is tougher. Mourn the loss, then celebrate the future.

[Mike CT]

Accountable Quote

What you're talking about is doing away with the FDA, which I'm frankly ambivalent about. Drugs are cheaper elsewhere because other gov'ts have cost controls. The US gov't restricts international drug purchases because one can get drugs without FDA clearance (yay freedom, imo). I'm okay with lifting the restriction because adults can make their own decisions. However, the risk is that the drug industry could be virtually destroyed because they won't have money for r&d. Another one will take it's place, but it may take awhile.

reply

Yes, the FDA is nothing but an enforcer to continue the drug industry and its commercial health care systems monopoly intact.

The 'alternative' health care practicioners do a better job of healing people than the conventional drug indistry. They use GOD'S medicines such as dietary corrections, vitamins, minerals, herbs, hormones and etc.

Their treatments are 3 to 4 times more effective than the conventional industry. The only problem here is that they are not covered by the insurance companies because their treatments are not FDA approved..

quote

Who gets to decide the arbitrary number that would be 'surplus income'?

Why raise the minimum wage? High school kids get the minimum wage jobs. They don't need a 'living wage'. I have yet to meet someone who is the head of a household works a minimum wage job as primary income. The minimum wage debate is a red herring to keep us from discussing issues that are actually important.

You want the poor to be not poor? Stop giving them things they don't have to work for.

reply

Surplus income is unspent income. Billionaires DO NOT spend all their oncomes.

You must be a conservative (capitalist). I have argued with those people before. Their disciple is Ayn Rand, I believe because they quoted her a lot. She is an athiest and promoter of capitalism and wrote a book on the subject.

There are only two sources of 'real tangible wealth' (RTW).

They are Nature 000000000and 'work' Capitalism harvests Nature and uses people to do the work.

Capitalists do 'nothing' but supply the ideas, dreams and greed.

They also use government as a source for welfare.

That is my opinion based on reality.

Mike CT

[Accountable]

Mike CT wrote: Accountable Quote

What you're talking about is doing away with the FDA, which I'm frankly ambivalent about. Drugs are cheaper elsewhere because other gov'ts have cost controls. The US gov't restricts international drug purchases because one can get drugs without FDA clearance (yay freedom, imo). I'm okay with lifting the restriction because adults can make their own decisions. However, the risk is that the drug industry could be virtually destroyed because they won't have money for r&d. Another one will take it's place, but it may take awhile.



reply

Yes, the FDA is nothing but an enforcer to continue the drug industry and its commercial health care systems monopoly intact.



The 'alternative' health care practicioners do a better job of healing people than the conventional drug indistry. They use GOD'S medicines such as dietary corrections, vitamins, minerals, herbs, hormones and etc.

Their treatments are 3 to 4 times more effective than the conventional industry. The only problem here is that they are not covered by the insurance companies because their treatments are not FDA approved.. 3 to 4 times? Says who?



Mike CT wrote: quote

Who gets to decide the arbitrary number that would be 'surplus income'?

Why raise the minimum wage? High school kids get the minimum wage jobs. They don't need a 'living wage'. I have yet to meet someone who is the head of a household works a minimum wage job as primary income. The minimum wage debate is a red herring to keep us from discussing issues that are actually important.

You want the poor to be not poor? Stop giving them things they don't have to work for.



reply

Surplus income is unspent income. Billionaires DO NOT spend all their oncomes.Unspent income is called savings!



Mike CT wrote: You must be a conservative (capitalist). I have argued with those people before. Their disciple is Ayn Rand, I believe because they quoted her a lot. She is an athiest and promoter of capitalism and wrote a book on the subject.



There are only two sources of 'real tangible wealth' (RTW).

They are Nature 000000000and 'work' Capitalism harvests Nature and uses people to do the work.

Capitalists do 'nothing' but supply the ideas, dreams and greed.

They also use government as a source for welfare.

That is my opinion based on reality.



Mike CTIgnoring the self-evident fact that you are needlessly insulting and pompous, I will pretend that you are open-minded for the benefit of other Gardeners.



Thanks for thinking someone as apparently famous as Ayn Rand would be my disciple, but I have no followers.



You may categorize me any way that will make it easier for you to digest, but you will miss out on a great wealth of personality by ignoring that which will not fit the paradigm.



Your baseless tripe about capitalists and capitalism means nothing. What is your 'definition' of RTW?



Since you're big on labels, how do you label yourself. Democrat doesn't do it, because they support capitalism as well.

[Accountable]

Far Rider wrote: In several of the most recent posts I see the discussion mentioned "giving them hope" refering to poor or jobless persons...



I have a question...???



Why do we as a people need to give them hope? Why can't we just leave them the heck alone and let them waller in their misfortune long enough to see for themselves that they need to change jobs or, get several to make ends meet... cause them jobs are out there...



In my opinion there are relatively few people that cannot find work... rather they sit with their hands out... saying give me unempoloyment whilst I go fishing for 17 weeks then I'll go get another job.... Instead of each day grabing the lawnmower and going door to door looking for work.



Recently I talked with a lady that works in stabucks for about 7 bucks an hour, she gets 40 hours perweek and no more, then she works late in the evenings in a fabric store... another 25 hours a week. Her husband has been home for more than a year, apparently he sat back and took his unemployment as "vacation" after 6 months of it, he went looking for a job in his same field... no jobs available... she came to me and asked if I woudl interview him for a job cleaning grease with me. I said yes I'd talk to him and did offer him work at 12 bucks an hour, 2 more bucks than I usually start folks, but he had extensive mechanical experience and a 23 year history of steady jobs. It was the best I could give him. He was insulted and turned it down. OK he has no job and his wifes working two to get them by.... why would he turn it down? Because of his pride I suppose. I call it foolishness.



I think there are a lot of guys like him out there, similar circumstances... If he can get work and doesnt take it, why do I owe him hope?



Theres a lot that the unemployement stats of our ecomony don't explain.You don't owe them hope, you big galoot. You give them hope through example. You don't have a successful business by waving a wand; you have it because you're willing to do what others won't. Hope flows from people who have it. Others see it or not.



My point is that hope is the only thing standing between them and success is hope. They don't have it, but they have everything else they need to succeed.



If I could give it, I would. Not because I owe it ... call it charity.

[BTS]

Accountable wrote: 3 to 4 times? Says who?




Mike CT thats who Says WHO....ACC

So it mus be fact.

Now go on about your business..........K? Don't make waves:yh_worshp

[Accountable]

Far Rider wrote: dammit im not a good writer I cant convey what I want to say...



Ok let me try again. I meant... why should I feel obligated if someone has opportunity and chucks it?



Should I feed a man that isnt willing to work and can?



I hate to be a hardcase but in my mind ya dont work ya dont eat.You & me. Eye to eye, baby.



When I was 4 or 5 my father & I were walking along a creek. I slipped off the edge of the bank and started grabbing anything I could to keep from falling in because I couldn't swim. I was yelling for my father to help me but he just stood there. That made me mad but I was too busy trying to stay alive. When the last of the grass I had been grabbing at was finally all pulled up by the roots, I realized I wasn't falling. I was actually standing on firm ground & hadn't known it. I never would have known it if he had 'rescued' me. He could have been a hero, but chose to let me succeed on my own.



I could also relate the Bible story about dropping your net where you are.

[Accountable]

BTS wrote: Mike CT thats who Says WHO....ACC

So it mus be fact.

Now go on about your business..........K? Don't make waves:yh_worshp:yh_rotfl

[Ted]

I don't disagree with you guys at all. However I think it is important to remember that some folks have tried so often and failed that they have lost all hope. Hope is what they need.

This is fine for us in North America but there are many countries around the world where poverty is a way of life. They don't have the privilege of living in some of the best countries in the world.

They need far more then hope.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Some might argue that that is exactly what we are doing in Iraq - delivering hope. But that's a subject of Scrat's thread, not here.

[Pilgrim]

Our Constitution was written over the sactrifice of thousands of revolutionaries that fought for a right to govern their own lives.

It was still written by men who are fallible like you and me. So whats so great about it cf: the Bible (which is not technically written by men). Preachers today, like the lawyers and judges try to interpret it the best they know. So whats the difference between them!!! Are the courts and judges perfect in their interpretation? I say not. The cosntitutional law is imperfect as it is written by imperfect men. We live in a fallible world with fallible interpretations that i do not consider the highest law. I consider the Biblical law more perfect in its moral implications. In a sense your argument does not stand as the Bible was written under extreme situations, yes by men, under the inspiratiuon of Gods Holy Spirit. In times of war, desertion, aloneness, by kings, shepherds, prophets, doctors, ordinary pwople etc etc....throughout it is consistent in its portrayl of God and His communication with humanity.

[Mike CT]

Pilgrim

Here we go again. Repeat.

The bible was written by people.

If you read the Old Testament, you should have known that the Jewish deity (yahweh) is/was a genocidal spirit that demanded absolute obedience. This deity was a racist, chauvanistic evil spirit. The first three commandments explain that and Islam is the result. They practice their religion according to the F3C's.

Who needs that?

There is only ONE creator GOD and that is Nature. It made NO laws so there is no higher law.

Our current comforts are a product of technology like guns and cannon, harvesting Natures creations, work and all the other technologies resulting from ideas and invention. So the God that rules this country is in our heads or more specifically, the dollar inhaling kings of the industry that use people to enhance their greed.

This is not the religion that Christ was promoting. He was attempting to direct the attention of the Pharisees to consider the needs of the people which is not happening today with the current Christian preachers.

They are promoting him as a victim for our sins rather than what he was trying to do.

That is why our country and its economy is in a chaotic state with the enormous inequities in wealth.

Mike CT