I standing on the side of the Iraqis

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:11 pm

It amazes me how pictures like these are taken...one second out of time, having no knowledge of what had taken place ten seconds before, or ten seconds after the shot was taken. Or a month before, or a month after. Just a picture, posted to support a viewpoint. Weakly, IMO.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:13 pm

kash567 wrote: The British are sticking by their soldiers, even when there are pictures which depict the evilest of torture going on in Iraq

Yes, of course - which is why they're being court-martialled, will be dishonourably discharged, and hopefully locked up - and also why the Chief of the General Staff has issued a statement condemming such acts. 'K?

kash567 wrote: The British media and people in general think that they should stick by their soldiers, even when they are the aggressors.

You're either trolling, have no access to news, or are half-witted. If you have no access to news, you could always use Google.

kash567 wrote: Why have all the politicians gone silent, why donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t they condemn these actions.

Er, they do, actually. See above.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:18 pm

BabyRider wrote: It amazes me how pictures like these are taken...one second out of time, having no knowledge of what had taken place ten seconds before, or ten seconds after the shot was taken. Or a month before, or a month after. Just a picture, posted to support a viewpoint. Weakly, IMO.

Er, there are quite a lot of pictures that show abuse. See:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... buse19.xml

"In pictures: The photos they took"

I sincerely hope they are locked up. The same goes for some Yank who I hear has got 10 years or so for similar offences. I can't find a reference on the 'net to this, but ISTR seeing him being led away from court manacled and shackled on the news this a.m.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:18 pm

The American and British people have universally condemned atrocities...what in the heck are you talking about? they are being prosecuted and graner , one American, has already been sentenced to 10 years. it's been taken seriously on both sides of the pond.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:23 pm

lady cop wrote: The American and British people have universally condemned atrocities...what in the heck are you talking about? they are being prosecuted and graner , one American, has already been sentenced to 10 years. it's been taken seriously on both sides of the pond.

Graner, that's the bloke.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... abus11.xml

I wonder what will happen to his superiors. I was also taken aback at his defence's statement that:

"The lawyer for Charles Graner, the alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal, yesterday compared heaping naked Iraqi prisoners in a tangled pyramid to choreographed displays by high-school cheerleaders.

"Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?" Guy Womack asked a 10-member military jury in Fort Hood, Texas."

Sheesh.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:31 pm

there's been a lot of "was just following orders" also...wonder where we've heard that before?... and just like in my organization, the buck has to stop at supervisors who should have known and must have known what was going on.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:47 pm

What these freaks did was wrong. I am in totally agree with that. They should and will be punished for their actions. And their direct superiors should be prosecuted too. But.. remember one thing here. The prisoners still have thier heads.. right.?? Where is the outrage in the Muslim world at the kidnapping and beheading of non-military workers in Iraq?? Or the outrage at suicide bombers killing their own people...?? And.. if I remember correctly suicide is a mortal sin according to Islamic law..

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:49 pm

greydeadhead wrote: But.. remember one thing here. The prisoners still have thier heads.. right.?? Where is the outrage in the Muslim world at the kidnapping and beheading of non-military workers in Iraq?? Or the outrage at suicide bombers killing their own people...?? And.. if I remember correctly suicide is a mortal sin according to Islamic law..
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!! :yh_clap

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:06 pm

The worst thing about the English and American Torturers is that they got caught. The type of torture that was handed out to the Muslims is nothing compared to water, electric and drug injection techniques used in other wars. Torture has, is, and always will be, an effective way to obtain vital information from suspected enemy.

Would you condone torturing a kidnapper of one of your children, spouse or grandchildren, to find out their location and save their life?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:16 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: Er, there are quite a lot of pictures that show abuse.

I realize this. So where are all the pictures of the beheadings? Too shocking and disturbing to be viewed by the public??? Hmmmm....Kinda makes a person wonder.

I like what Lon says...Would your tune change to get back a child or grandchild who had been abducted? Is there no means too extreme to bring them back safe...and alive??

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:16 pm

War brings out the beast. Maybe they were following orders maybe it is just an excuse but when a person is sent to war expect them to be altered. Who is to blame? Of course their actions are condemned, how could they not be? It would damn the "civilized world" to not condemn the animal that exists in all of us. How do we know that we wouldn't snap if we were in the same situation? It is offensive to think that we could torture innocents but we are not in that situation and it is unknowable. Not every one would crack but how do we blame those that do?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:24 pm

I could so very easily beat and torture a person who held my son's life in his hands. I'd do it in a second, and sleep like a baby. When these soldiers, whose SWORN DUTY it is to protect our country get caught up in this sort of scene, I can completely understand how they would snap. They are, after all, only human. And as soon as someone wants to whine about what was done over there, I've got 2 words for them: Go enlist.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:47 am

It is wrong what our soldiers did & seeing these images is very upsetting as was seeing Ken Bigley & the other civilian hostages begging for their lives before being butchered.

But two wrongs don't make a right.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:20 am

Lon wrote: The worst thing about the English and American Torturers is that they got caught. The type of torture that was handed out to the Muslims is nothing compared to water, electric and drug injection techniques used in other wars.

So what?

Lon wrote: Torture has, is, and always will be, an effective way to obtain vital information from suspected enemy.

So what? That's got no relevance to what actually took place.

Lon wrote: Would you condone torturing a kidnapper of one of your children, spouse or grandchildren, to find out their location and save their life?

Quite possibly - however, tThat's got no relevance whatsoever to what actually took place.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:23 am

BabyRider wrote: I realize this. So where are all the pictures of the beheadings? Too shocking and disturbing to be viewed by the public??? Hmmmm....Kinda makes a person wonder.

I like what Lon says...Would your tune change to get back a child or grandchild who had been abducted? Is there no means too extreme to bring them back safe...and alive??

a) What relevance has one person's wrongdoing got to another?

b) I don't think your second paragraph has any relevance whatsoever to these cases - if it has, please explain.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:28 am

abbey wrote: It is wrong what our soldiers did & seeing these images is very upsetting as was seeing Ken Bigley & the other civilian hostages begging for their lives before being butchered.

IMO these incidents are in a quite different league.

abbey wrote: But two wrongs don't make a right.

This is exactly the point - in addition, these bastards have handed a propoganda coup to "the opposition" on a plate, as well as wound up the "home side".

Note that the OP has made no further comment.

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:03 am

There does appear to be huge moral outrage here. I may be that we are a bit sanitised as to what acually happens in a conflict. our cosy lives dont want this sort of thing shoved in our faces, but here it is for eveyone to see.

To my mind there is a disturbing element to this that has not been mentioned, I believe that there have always been excessive actions carried out in the heat of or very soon after actual combat by the troops involved, that is basic human nature.

The soldiers involved in both the USA and UK abuse of prsioners were not and had not been involved in combat, which is what makes it even more cowardly. I suppose what I am saying is that I could understand a soldier who has just finished fighting for his life and lost comarades maybe wanting to take out his anger on captured opposition troops. However that is very different from the situations I see here

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:36 am

The actions of these "soldiers" makes me as a veteran want to vomit. And I am sure that many of my brothers and sisters, both active and inactive agree. They are cowards and deserve whatever punishment the recieve. It appears that in both the US and GB, condemnation of the parties responsible has been swift and vocal. One sentence has already been handed out in the US. Personally, I think the freak should have gotten bread and water and life, but that is my own feelings on that matter. Hopefully, his accomplices will receive the same treatment or worse. But.. on the other side of the coin, the terrorists behind the kidnappings, beheadings, and car bombings in Iraq are no better. They just use religious beliefs as justification for thier atrocities. My question is where is the outrage at thier actions in the Muslim world. I don't hear that same outrage coming from any Muslim country being directed at the terrorist groups responsible for crimes against humanity.

Post by **kensloft** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:08 am

greydeadhead wrote: I don't hear that same outrage coming from any Muslim country being directed at the terrorist groups responsible for crimes against humanity.

Every nation, every army has its stock of wierdos that make it into the armed forces. I'm sure that their mothers and fathers are really proud of what they've accomplished with their lives. Their only solace in this ugly affair is that they didn't kill the prisoners.

When soldiers are allowed to get away with these deeds then there is another Saddam Hussein and company in existence. It's always easy to point the finger at the other guy. That way you get to say that they did it first. The hope that people will forget their complicity shines ever brighter.

Once they decide who has won then they'll exude nothing but we told you the Allies were the good guys. Do't want to trade the pan-arabic movement for the truth. They all have to stick together you know.

Once the Iraqis get their thing together they'll be clamouring to live like them. Too bad they haven't figured out that it would be easier if they just stopped giving aid to the enemy within them.

Guess the only good thing about it is that thay see that we won't tolerate it when we find it happening. Unlike their confreres that keep them guessing as to whether it happens or not. If they don't know then they won't believe. If they don't believe then the insurgents and the likes of saddam et al can comfortably ply their tools of the trade. Chop off heads. Feet. Arms. It's all good. They weren't there. How could they know they let little Hitlers manifest in their neighbourhoods.

Can't complain about what you don't know for sure.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:20 pm

greydeadhead wrote: The actions of these "soldiers" makes me as a veteran want to vomit. And I am sure that many of my brothers and sisters, both active and inactive agree. They are cowards and deserve whatever punishment the recieve. It appears that in both the US and GB, condemnation of the parties responsible has been swift and vocal. One sentence has already been handed out in the US. Personally, I think the freak should have gotten bread and water and life, but that is my own feelings on that matter. Hopefully, his accomplices will receive the same treatment or worse. But.. on the other side of the coin, the terrorists behind the kidnappings, beheadings, and car bombings in Iraq are no better. They just use religious beliefs as justification for thier atrocities. My question is where is the outrage at thier actions in the Muslim world. I don't hear that same outrage coming from any Muslim country being directed at the terrorist groups responsible for crimes against humanity.Not Yet.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:53 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: a) What relevance has one person's wrongdoing got to another?

b) I don't think your second paragraph has any relevance whatsoever to these cases - if it has, please explain.
OK, I keep hearing all this "two wrongs don't make a right" and while that generally stands true, I'll ask: What would you have us do? The soldiers who beat prisoners were court martialed and punished. If you were the one dealing with this situation, what would you do? A slap on the wrist? A little "Tsk Tsk, you need to stop chopping off the heads of your hostages, shame on you..."? I said it before, and I'll say it again....You don't like what goes on? GO SIGN UP!