Who gets to decide meaning?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:40 am

A valued Gardener wrote this statement in an unrelated thread:

A failure to see meaning in the question does not conclude that it is meaningless.

Agree or disagree?

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:34 am

[QUOTE]A failure to see meaning in the question does not conclude that it is meaningless.

Agree or disagree?

The grammar is somewhat questionable from this side of the Atlantic, but we'll let that ride.

Noam Chomsky famously wrote two sample sentences in 1957: (1) Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. and (2) Furiously sleep ideas green colorless., saying "It is fair to assume that neither sentence (1) nor (2) (nor indeed any part of these sentences) has ever occurred in an English discourse. Hence, in any statistical model for grammaticalness, these sentences will be ruled out on identical grounds as equally `remote' from English. Yet (1), though nonsensical, is grammatical, while (2) is not."

Clive James subsequently (fifteen years later) took the second 'meaningless' sentence and used it as the first line of one of my favourite poems, 'A Line and a Theme from Noam Chomsky', relating it to the conflict overseas:Furiously sleep; ideas green; colourless

Sweet dreams just lately ain't been had.

Sweat smells like the color of the jungle.

Things looked bad then. They go on looking bad.

That strikes me as an extreme example of a sentence deliberately constructed to be meaningless carrying, unknown to its author, a powerful punch. I do think it supports the thesis, though.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:44 am

:-2 ..... 'kay. :-3

I think we can all agree that a meaningful question from the questioner's point of view can be meaningless or mean something completely different from the listener's point of view.

My opinion is that in order for a questioner to receive a meaningful answer, he must pose it in a way that is meaningful to the listener. The value the questioner places on the question is irrelevant.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:50 am

Accountable wrote: :-2 ..... 'kay. :-3

I think we can all agree that a meaningful question from the questioner's point of view can be meaningless or mean something completely different from the listener's point of view.

My opinion is that in order for a questioner to receive a meaningful answer, he must pose it in a way that is meaningful to the listener. The value the questioner places on the question is irrelevant.

I agree with your post here. The questioner and the listener can hear the same statement/question and have completely different ideas as to what is "meant." "Meaning" is subjective.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:21 am

Accountable wrote: :-2 ..... 'kay. :-3 You didn't like that? I thought it was quite good myself.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:22 am

spot wrote: You didn't like that? I thought it was quite good myself.
It made me dizzy. It's still quite early here.

I'm glad you're back! :-6

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:30 am

Accountable wrote: It made me dizzy. It's still quite early here.

The minor benefit is that I updated Wikipedia with the reference. It's getting to be a useful resource, that.

I'm glad you're back! :-6My day has brightened immeasurably.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:37 am

Meaning is perceived differently by people.

Do you believe Skippy Super Chunk Peanut Butter is the best thing ever made?

This question might be meaningless to some, and very valuable to others.

*I believe it is invaluable to my tummy*

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:47 am

chonsigirl wrote: Meaning is perceived differently by people.

Do you believe Skippy Super Chunk Peanut Butter is the best thing ever made?

This question might be meaningless to some, and very valuable to others.

*I believe it is invaluable to my tummy*

Chonsi...the voice of reason and source of wonderful humour....what would we do without you ...:yh_yinyan

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:18 am

The question being meaningless struck me as a rather absurd statement as books have been written and all my research over the last year has been littered with different voices of the same concern. To ask "what is morality" would have been a more interesting way of challenging the question. (this is what I wrote on the thread that started this)

I would be subjected to a whole other set of criticisms if every question I posed hand fed the response arguements to those reading.

I could have started the thread in question by making a statement instead of posing a question but I actually wanted to hear the views of the Gardeners prior to flavouring the topic.

As to grammar. I should have said A failure to see meaning in the question does not preclude meaning but I used the words 'do not conclude' intentionally as the point was to encourage discussion not end it.

Now the question of this thread "who gets to decide meaning?" is exactly why I made the statement. The response that the question was meaningless made me ask 'who gets to decide?' as well. Hence the statement.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:42 am

IMO if the poster truly finds a question meaningless in this context why respond at all? To state that it is meaningless is projecting the 'meaningless' value onto others. To ask for clarification as to the meaning would be quite another matter.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Accountable wrote: A valued Gardener wrote this statement in an unrelated thread:

A failure to see meaning in the question does not conclude that it is meaningless.

Agree or disagree?
Disagree. It's called "perceived reality."