Ignorance: Necessary Condition for Brainwashing

[coberst]

Ignorance: Necessary Condition for Brainwashing

This sentence “If people know they are being brainwashed, then they are not being brainwashed.” that I read recently in the NYTimes struck a resonant cord in my brain.

Brainwash”persuasion by propaganda.

The only thing we have to fear is ignorance and tigers. All of the forces of propaganda can penetrate only as far as we allow them to penetrate into our lives. We cannot be knowledgeable about everything and thus will probably be brainwashed sometimes but we can, if we are able to arouse our curiosity, guard our most precious concerns from blatant manipulation by others.

[Blackjack]

I don't know of anyone who considers themselves ignorant or vulnerable to brainwashing, however. As long as it's something they want to hear or something that seems to go along with what whatever impressions they've already been under anyway, they'll see no need to question it. How do you get someone to see that they are ignorant? How do you interest people in understanding things they'd rather not understand and admitting to themselves they might be wrong and the foundation of their whole world-view might be flawed?

[SOJOURNER]

coberst wrote: We cannot be knowledgeable about everything and thus will probably be brainwashed sometimes but we can, if we are able to arouse our curiosity, guard our most precious concerns from blatant manipulation by others.


A red flag to warn you would be if you are the odd man out............. but, magazines and TV are in sync as to what is the topic of the month. Look at any magazine rack and the highlighted topics are similar. Which magazine do you buy? Why more than one, of course, if you are interested in a particular subject. Then the talk shows speak to these concerns and finally you are left with the feeling that "everyone" thinks this way.......... Where are you to go to break the pattern?

I broke this pattern only once. My TV broke. I was young, single, living alone and out with the boyfriend everynight............... I had no time to sit at home and wait for a repairman to come and look at the set and so I lived without a TV for a long time. I then began to notice that people started having some pecular thoughs to which I inquired "not always so politely, "where ever did you get such an idea!" The answers were quite uniformly "On TV, I saw". Or, "The Journal (or some other magazine) had this article that said................"

Pay attention to most conversations around you. People reference TV news programs as their source to validate their 'thoughts' and if another station may report differently, they side with the station that has the newscasters they like the best.

Digging out the truth is not easy. It is a lot easier to accept the spoon fed versions of others.

Again I ask, short of isolation, how do you break the pattern?

[Accountable]

SOJOURNER wrote: [...]

Again I ask, short of isolation, how do you break the pattern?
(love the av, Sojo)



Isolation or the opposite, innundation.



I just spent all weekend listening to AirAmerica online. It's talk radio funded by the ultra-liberal left. The only talk radio available here in San Antonio is conservative.



I was laughing at the similarity. Take the slurs the right sling at the left and swap out all the nouns. Then it occurred to me how baseless both sides sound. It cleared my head like eucalyptus. Now I feel able to look beyond the smokescreen and start looking for the real motives behind it.



Wish me luck.

[SOJOURNER]

Accountable wrote: (love the av, Sojo)



Isolation or the opposite, innundation.



I just spent all weekend listening to AirAmerica online. It's talk radio funded by the ultra-liberal left. The only talk radio available here in San Antonio is conservative.



I was laughing at the similarity. Take the slurs the right sling at the left and swap out all the nouns. Then it occurred to me how baseless both sides sound. It cleared my head like eucalyptus. Now I feel able to look beyond the smokescreen and start looking for the real motives behind it.



Wish me luck.


Good luck, ACC...........

Attached files

[Accountable]

Blackjack wrote: I don't now of anyone who considers themselves ignorant or vulnerable to brainwashing, however. As long as it's something they want to hear or something that seems to go along with what whatever impressions they've already been under anyway, they'll see no need to question it. How do you get someone to see that they are ignorant? How do you interest people in understanding things they'd rather not understand and admitting to themselves they might be wrong and the foundation of their whole world-view might be flawed?
Questions. That's how. In order to explain a theory, one must think deeply about it. In that way, one can see the flaws - the truth - and adjust. That's why I get so frustrated with SCT, for instance. She is passionate about what she says, but sees questions as attacks and immediately goes into defense-mode rather than "teach-mode."



Stephen Covey says it well: "Seek first to understand, then be understood." It's a skill I fail at miserably, but still try to use. If you truly think a person is ignorant (your word), give honest effort to understand their point of view. Your belief that you understand isn't good enough; keep seeking until the other guy thinks you understand. Understand? Once you fully understand the other guy, then you can put forth your ideas in a less resistant environment. The result will be that you will gain a fuller understanding, thereby possibly changing your own stance, and you stand a greater chance of gaining an ally.

[chonsigirl]

coberst wrote: Ignorance: Necessary Condition for Brainwashing

This sentence “If people know they are being brainwashed, then they are not being brainwashed.” that I read recently in the NYTimes struck a resonant cord in my brain.

Brainwash”persuasion by propaganda.

The only thing we have to fear is ignorance and tigers. All of the forces of propaganda can penetrate only as far as we allow them to penetrate into our lives. We cannot be knowledgeable about everything and thus will probably be brainwashed sometimes but we can, if we are able to arouse our curiosity, guard our most precious concerns from blatant manipulation by others.


Ignorance of what?

You are talking about commercial propoganda. Turn off the TV and the radio, and don't read the ads in the NY Times. The use of the word ignorance I think, is a little strong.

[coberst]

Blackjack wrote: I don't now of anyone who considers themselves ignorant or vulnerable to brainwashing, however. As long as it's something they want to hear or something that seems to go along with what whatever impressions they've already been under anyway, they'll see no need to question it. How do you get someone to see that they are ignorant? How do you interest people in understanding things they'd rather not understand and admitting to themselves they might be wrong and the foundation of their whole world-view might be flawed?


Great question. Perhaps we can start here in discussing this problem and how we can correct the matter.

If you do not agree with my claim then indicate where I have missed and make your claim. If you agree, then what are the consequences of us doing nothing? Is there any thing that we, those of us who agree with my claim, can do to change the minds of the apathetic?

It appears to me that we must do something to correct the present attitude of the vast majority who feel that negative is cool and apathy is likewise cool. Are we who understand the problem helpless in our own apathy and negativity? Is there any who recognize the problem and if so what can we do to correct the problem?

Our educational system has left us with adults who have a very unhealthy attitude toward learning. I have been saying this for months and there appears to be no one who responds who can understand or if they understand do not give a %$^*(.

[coberst]

SOJOURNER wrote: A red flag to warn you would be if you are the odd man out............. but, magazines and TV are in sync as to what is the topic of the month. Look at any magazine rack and the highlighted topics are similar. Which magazine do you buy? Why more than one, of course, if you are interested in a particular subject. Then the talk shows speak to these concerns and finally you are left with the feeling that "everyone" thinks this way.......... Where are you to go to break the pattern?

I broke this pattern only once. My TV broke. I was young, single, living alone and out with the boyfriend everynight............... I had no time to sit at home and wait for a repairman to come and look at the set and so I lived without a TV for a long time. I then began to notice that people started having some pecular thoughs to which I inquired "not always so politely, "where ever did you get such an idea!" The answers were quite uniformly "On TV, I saw". Or, "The Journal (or some other magazine) had this article that said................"

Pay attention to most conversations around you. People reference TV news programs as their source to validate their 'thoughts' and if another station may report differently, they side with the station that has the newscasters they like the best.

Digging out the truth is not easy. It is a lot easier to accept the spoon fed versions of others.

Again I ask, short of isolation, how do you break the pattern?


I think we break the pattern by becoming self-actuated learners. Find something that arouses your curiosity and that you care enough about to begin the process of learning.

[coberst]

chonsigirl wrote: Ignorance of what?

You are talking about commercial propoganda. Turn off the TV and the radio, and don't read the ads in the NY Times. The use of the word ignorance I think, is a little strong.


We have developed such a bad attitude toward learning that we are incapable of self initiated learning. What am I ignorant of--99.9% of the world and myself. We must begin at act like adults and become responsible for our apathy and negativity. The world crumbles about us and we cannot awaken to the danger. We sleep walk through life. We abound in ignorance. The question is there anything about which you care enough to start the process of trying to understand it?

[SOJOURNER]

You might as well ask how do you get people to care about things outside of their own little world.

We are not all on the same page at the same time. Life frequently gets in the way of our thinking. Sometimes it is all one can do just to make it through the day and then you start all over the next day. Many people just exist. When the time comes when they have the time to mull about such things, they may no longer have the enthusiam to pursue these mental exercises -- they no longer care. How do you kick-start such people?

[teramiabullfrog]

i was typing a pesonal journal type message in the missing children forum and it suddenly disappeared and i can't find it to submit it. a message did appear about contacting an forum administrator, how do i do that?

[teramiabullfrog]

morning, been away from the garden community for some time, i read somewhere before, "...been playing with my grandaughters..." and spending a lot of time emailing a variety of elected politicians about a "break-down" in one of their annual federal funded programs (to help find missing children, the NALC/USPS CHILD ALERT PROGRAM. a common sense reform would be to correct the break-down and operate the program at the efficiency level it was originally intended. now, the federal money is being provided, annually, the national center for missing and exploited children is providing and printing the monthly missing child Postal Bulletins, the Postal Bulletins are being sent to the USPS district coordinators, who are required to make enough copies of the missing child notices for every Post Office in the district. Finding Our Children Under Stress (F.O.C.U.S.), a national, 501(c)(3), nonprofit, charity has discovered in one study, only five of two thousand Post Offices had any type display of missing children notices. as ceo/cfo of the f.o.c.u.s. organization i've presented the findings of our studies to numerous politicians, over the past several years. and never received a reply back.

findings from another one of our studies, estimates up to forty million people, living in the U.S.A., are the relative of a missing child.

[teramiabullfrog]

in response to my reply to sojourner, a question instead of a reply, never mind as you can see from my last reply i got most of what i wrote previously submitted, so disregard the question; but, in response to sojourner, the best way to kick-start someone who's fallen into just existing, is to find some topic (a thread if you will) that excites the person, something that motivates them, inspires them, to get enthused and involved, by offerring their talents to the issue. try something that will make the world a better place, like volunteering for a local help find missing persons charity.

[teramiabullfrog]

now that my new posts are appearing i'll try to again present the letter, sent from the Finding Our Children Under Stress (F.O.C.U.S.) Organization, sent to various politicians representing all political parties (the following is what has been emailed in 2006, we've been mailing U.S.P.S. letters and leaving phone messages for years - never receiving a reply back):

"we've written to you previously. Finding Our Children

Under Stress (F.O.C.U.S.) is an all volunteer, national

501(c)(3), nonprofit charity (made up of family members

of a missing child), incorporated in New York (1997).

in one of our studies we've found a break-down, in the

management of a Presidential created, annual-federal-

funded, national, Program, involving the NALC/USPS

CHILD ALERT PROGRAM. for one study we completed,

we estimate up-to forty million people , living in the

U.S.A., are a relative of a missing child. our

organizaion's mission, f.o.c.u.s., "...is families with a

missing child assisting other families with a missing

child..." (no other organization can make this statement).

we've also discovered, in the first mentioned study,

three of the first four steps are being done:

1. annual fed money is provided

2. the NCMEC is providing and

printing the missing child

Postal Bulletins

3. the missing child Postal

Bulletins are being sent

to the usps district coordinators.

4. the usps district coordinator is

required to print enough copies

for every Post Office in their district.

our study found 5 of 2,000 Post offices had any type of

missing-child-notice-display. less than one percent.

if you want to champion a common sense reform issue,

help reform the NALC/USPS CHILD ALERT PROGRAM..."(cont.).

[coberst]

I think that there exists a reality out there that cannot be comprehended without study. Each of us needs to change our attitude regarding learning. Learning is a means for us to understand reality. Without study we know only the surface of reality.

Each of us needs to start today on changing our attitude toward learning. Our schooling has left us with a dangerous attitude toward learning. If we were to start with something that we are curious about, go to the library get a card and start the process of learning how to learn without a teacher holding your hand.

Pick something that interests you and start by developing a question then start with the library or the Internet and start your learning how to understand process. Like every thing it will start slowly but you will not regret it if you do get into this process. Consider that you are beginning a lifetime of learning to understand whatever you are interested in.

[teramiabullfrog]

continued, letter mailed to various elected politicians, from finding our children under steress organization (see our previous thread):

"...in order for the NALC/USPS CHILD ALERT PROGRAM

to operate at the efficiency level it was intended,

originally (see the 1/19/96 presidential memorandum).

while also, promoting the reform of the annual-federal-

funded Program to help prevent child abductions: the

BE SMART-STAY SAFE-KNOW THE RULES CAMPAIGN,

the national program started in 1996 to help prevent

child abduction".

volunteers of the f.o.c.u.s. organization travel from county fair to county fair, in six western states, with their MAC SHACK booth (mobile awareness center about missing child issues). the fairs are attended on an annual basis (for the past thirteen years), so certain highway routes are followed annually (some routes are serviced as many as six times per year). one inch, three-ring, binders containing over sixty pages of multi-photo /id notices of missing persons (in sheet protectors), are displayed in every Post Office, in every town we pass through. Located (found alive) and Recovered (remains found) rubber stamps are used to up-date the binders each time we travel.

for those of you part of the forumgarden community, f.o.c.u.s. org. and terramia bullfrog, challenge you to check your local post office the next time you go there, and see if any missing child notices are displayed somewhere in the lobby. send the results back to me by private message or email, i'll be sure the f.o.c.u.s. organization documents the findings. as mentioned previously, only five of two thousand post offices where we stopped, had any type of missing child notice display. we thank the garden community member, the ft. sam/canal partying member, for sending back the info about that towns post office.

as for, "ignorance: necessary condition for brainwashing" - our elected politicians seem to think ignorance, is a condition (an excuse) for not operating programs at the level of efficiency they are funded for and originally intended to accomplish (a form of brainwashing - missing children is a huge problem globally, this country has the best existing laws and programs, to both help find and prevent missing children, anywhere. If the current programs are advanced to the efficiency level they were intended, we'd have a lot more sighting reports and missing person cases solved, and a lot fewer missing person reports.

Perhaps the forumgarden administrators can see to having this thread moved to the missing children section of the home page, thank-you.

[Accountable]

Teramia, you're not posting in missing children. I tried to PM you but your box is full.

[teramiabullfrog]

again, thank you accountable. i still haven't figured out how to delete things in my personal message area; plus, i'm still trying to figure out how to get an eye-catching web site created for the F.O.C.U.S. organization. something that will get others to get-on-the-government-agencies, required to operate federal programs, cases about doing what their suppose too.

[chonsigirl]

coberst wrote: We have developed such a bad attitude toward learning that we are incapable of self initiated learning. What am I ignorant of--99.9% of the world and myself. We must begin at act like adults and become responsible for our apathy and negativity. The world crumbles about us and we cannot awaken to the danger. We sleep walk through life. We abound in ignorance. The question is there anything about which you care enough to start the process of trying to understand it?


I do not sleep through life, but am an active particpant in it. I have a very positive attitude towards learning-being in the educational field, and earning my degrees in my forties. I already understand alot, and continue to learn daily of many things. That is what life is, a constant learning process.

Please do not lump everyone into the pronoun "we" when refering to ignorance.

[Benjamin]

chonsigirl wrote: I do not sleep through life, but am an active particpant in it. I have a very positive attitude towards learning-being in the educational field, and earning my degrees in my forties. I already understand alot, and continue to learn daily of many things. That is what life is, a constant learning process.

Please do not lump everyone into the pronoun "we" when refering to ignorance.


Good post, chonsigirl. That's great you're earning degrees in your 40s. I've been thinking about going back to school and getting my masters. I'll be into my 50s when I graduate if I decide to do it. :driving:

[chonsigirl]

You can do it CB. You appreciate school more when you are older, and will work hard for the degree you always wanted.

[Accountable]

chonsigirl wrote: You can do it CB. You appreciate school more when you are older, and will work hard for the degree you always wanted.
Ain't that the truth! I was on academic probation 3 of the 5 quarters I went to LA Tech when I was 18. When I finally got around to trying again, nearly 20 years later, I kept a 3.8 average for my Ba and 3.9 for my masters.



Do it CB. The only regret would be in not doing it. :-6

[Slade1]

Since I left full time education, when I was 18, I haven't felt any desire to go back to it. I can honestly say that I have learned more since I left school than when I was there. The way I see it is that school teaches you the rudimentary skills, such as reading, but the only way to learn is to read, watch and think for yourself.

[SOJOURNER]

Benjamin wrote: Good post, chonsigirl. That's great you're earning degrees in your 40s. I've been thinking about going back to school and getting my masters. I'll be into my 50s when I graduate if I decide to do it. :driving:


And how old will you be if you decide NOT to do it? :sneaky: