Free speech or obscene gesture?

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:30 pm

PITTSBURGH (AP) - A motorist believes the constitutional right to free speech includes obscene hand gestures.

Thomas Burns, of New Castle, contends he was denied his First Amendment free speech rights when he was cited for giving an obscene hand gesture to a construction worker in April, according to a federal lawsuit filed Monday in Pittsburgh.

Burns had become frustrated with a traffic delay and showed the gesture at a construction worker. The worker reported it to a police officer, who cited Burns for disorderly conduct, according to the lawsuit.

The citation was dropped, but Burns filed a lawsuit because he believes he was maliciously prosecuted.

The "finger gesture was not accompanied by any verbal threats, taunting or communication and was never visible to anyone other than the workers," the lawsuit states. "The gesture, albeit insulting, had no sexual meaning, did not appeal to anyone's prurient interest, and did not create a public disturbance or breach of peace."

The chief of the police department that cited Burns - in Center Township, Beaver County - declined comment Tuesday, saying he hadn't had a chance to discuss the case with the department's attorney. In recent years, Pennsylvania courts have ruled that the gesture doesn't automatically constitute disorderly conduct, because it is not "obscene" as defined by the law, unless it is used in a clearly sexual context.

SweetDarlin · Post by **SweetDarlin** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:36 pm

It never even occurred to me... (and I think about all kinds of stuff real and imagined) that flippin' someone off might be a crime... weird.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:54 pm

I think everyone here would be in jail.. grin..

When I was in Colorado recently there was a case written up in the local newspaper where a young Italian American had been indicted for indecent exposure for being naked in his own house. A lady neighbour had spotted him. The case was eventually thrown out, but the bloke agreed that while in Italy such wickedness was pretty normal, in America it could indeed be construed as disgustingly offensive and he would in future keep his clothes on. I don't think anyone prosecuted the neighbour for being a peeping tom(ette).

(Dunno where this leaves those car cleaners!!!!???!!!)

This should be a lesson to all of us. Close the window before you go to the bathroom. Mutter cusses under your breath only when encountering f^%$wits on the road and keep your hands on the wheel (or on your friend's knee). And never ever ever dance naked in your garden with flowers in your hair even if it is Beltaine.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:14 pm

I was always under the impression that one finger salute meant 'for unlawful carnal knowledge you'! Since when is that not an obscene gesture? (nevermind it's one of my automatic communications!)

I MEAN it to be rude and obscene!:p

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:14 pm

SnoozeControl wrote: That occurred to me too... she's the one that should've been investigated. Unless he was standing in a picture window with his willy pressed against the glass. Even I would've had a little trouble with that one.

:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

Snooze? Little trouble with a willy? Somehow, I dun't theenk so!!

:yh_rotfl

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:18 pm

Well I do know that it's against the law in New Mexico to give an "obscene gesture to a police officer." Personal experience when I was young, funny thing was, I was just hanging my shirt out to dry after coming back from the lake, I never flipped him off at all.

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:25 pm

Jives wrote: Well I do know that it's against the law in New Mexico to give an "obscene gesture to a police officer." Personal experience when I was young, funny thing was, I was just hanging my shirt out to dry after coming back from the lake, I never flipped him off at all.

k I have to add this for fun please find the humor in it and if anyone is offended please please forgive me but I have been dying to post this pic....

Attached files

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:30 pm

How very ironic....

The other day I was driving down the street, and you know how you see a person about to pull out of a parking lot, and you're like, "Don't do it....don't pull out in front of me..." and they do? Well, that happened. This dumb, blind bitch nearly side-swiped me. I laid on the horn, and she gunned it to get up next to me. I flipped her the bird, several times, with both hands. Then I pulled into a gas station that I was stopping at anyway. She was past me now, but saw me pull in and whipped around, pulled into the parking lot and stared at me from about 30 yards away. I got out of my car and stretched my arms, as if saying, "What?!?!?!?!!" She pulled up next to me, rolled down her window, pointed her finger at me, and started in about "When you flip your middle finger up at me...." I interrupted her and said, "I don't give 2 sh!ts about what you have to say to me. You almost side swipe me, and you're going to come lecture me??? Learn how to drive!!" She started to say something else, and I just said "F*ck off" and walked into the gas station. She took down my plate and reported it to the police. What a bozo. She almost hits me, and she's going to the cops about it? I can't WAIT to tell them my side of the story. They will laugh in her face.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:34 pm

Actually, they'll be very polite and professional...and then they'll hang up on her. They have much, much better things to do than track down "bird flippers.":wah:

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:38 pm

Hey BR a friend of ours had a similar incident but it was mano-a mano and when our friend got out of his truck the dude who took offense came at our friends truck with a screwdriver and jammed it into the hood of his truck and walked away leaving a very stunnned friend behind. Yeah needless to say I don't succumb to road rage tooooo scarey

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:46 pm

minks wrote: Hey BR a friend of ours had a similar incident but it was mano-a mano and when our friend got out of his truck the dude who took offense came at our friends truck with a screwdriver and jammed it into the hood of his truck and walked away leaving a very stunnned friend behind. Yeah needless to say I don't succumb to road rage tooooo scarey
I didn't succumb to road rage. SHE followed ME and approached me. When someone comes at me, there is no backing down. It's not in my make-up. She never got out of her car, which wouldn't have mattered to me if she did or didn't, it would have been her taking it to the next level; plus, I had Bullet standing right behind me. She wasn't going to do anything. She was wrong, and I told her she was wrong. Period.

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:49 pm

BabyRider wrote: I didn't succumb to road rage. SHE followed ME and approached me. When someone comes at me, there is no backing down. It's not in my make-up. She never got out of her car, which wouldn't have mattered to me if she did or didn't, it would have been her taking it to the next level; plus, I had Bullet standing right behind me. She wasn't going to do anything. She was wrong, and I told her she was wrong. Period.

ooo wasn't implying you did huh, just saying for me after our friends incident, I am way to chicken to start a confrontation hehehehe

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:51 pm

minks wrote: ooo wasn't implying you did huh, just saying for me after our friends incident, I am way to chicken to start a confrontation hehehehe
I know you weren't implying that Minks, I was just clarifying. If you had a 6'2" 240lb bald headed, leather wearing man standing behind you, you'd find yourself quite a bit braver. This is not something I would do had I been alone.

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:54 pm

BabyRider wrote: I know you weren't implying that Minks, I was just clarifying. If you had a 6'2" 240lb bald headed, leather wearing man standing behind you, you'd find yourself quite a bit braver. This is not something I would do had I been alone.
kay can ya loan him out once in awhile I think he would enjoy a trip or two to Canadaland, I really wanna tell of some of the redneck jerks in big trucks up here. They seem to think they are the all mighty powers of the road and often are cutting us little Jap cars off.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:09 pm

minks wrote: kay can ya loan him out once in awhile I think he would enjoy a trip or two to Canadaland, I really wanna tell of some of the redneck jerks in big trucks up here. They seem to think they are the all mighty powers of the road and often are cutting us little Jap cars off.
Bullet has been hired for protection reasons several times. Sure, you can borrow him!!!

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:11 pm

BabyRider wrote: Bullet has been hired for protection reasons several times. Sure, you can borrow him!!!

hehehehe some days I can see the benifits hehehehe

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:16 pm

Heck Guys... let's get real here.. Some clueless loser bloody drongo messes with you on the road, ya don't give them the finger... I mean fergit fingers. Guns are better. Waste the bastard!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:18 pm

AussiePam wrote: Heck Guys... let's get real here.. Some clueless loser bloody drongo messes with you on the road, ya don't give them the finger... I mean fergit fingers. Guns are better. Waste the bastard!
A shameless, yet temporary hijack here: Pam, how do you feel about having your guns taken away?

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:43 pm

Did they outlaw guns in Australia?:-3

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:51 pm

I get asked that a lot by American friends I shoot with in the States. It's a big question and any attempt to answer briefly is gonna sound like a gross oversimplification. Some random thoughts:

Firstly, Australia is a very different country to America, and we never had the historical basis for owning guns that America does. People in the country have always had guns and hunt when they like, there are rules and regulations but minor and pretty much invisible as far as I can see, beside those of America. It was general hunting season down the coast when I was there in the weekend, and we were advised to wear a bright colour while hiking in the forest. Fergit licences and tags. I think the main target was foxes, but also wild pigs, according to a ranger I was talking to.

In the city, it's in general only been bad guys who own guns. And the drive to limit ownership of military style weapons was what got us the publicity (and sympathy) in the US.

The odds of getting shot in Australia are minimal. You're much more likely to get clobbered by ethnic groups in the community who normally carry knives - and that's improbable enough. There's some restrictions on narsty cutty knife ownership too, especially by minors. (I think crossbows have to be registered too, at least in New South Wales).

There are a few gun clubs round here. Target shooting. Black powder etc. Last time I talked to one of the organisers, he told me they generally leave their weapons locked up at club premises in between shooting sessions.

BR, I guess the answer to your question is that the real difference between here in Australia and there in the States, is that here the overwhelming majority of the population has never owned (or wanted to own) guns and so can't miss what they've never had.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:57 pm

Ok, Pam. Thanks for the time spent on your answer.

And Jives? Where the hell have you been? :yh_rotfl

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:57 pm

AussiePam wrote: we were advised to wear a bright colour while hiking in the forest.

Why? Was Dick Cheney hunting down there?

ROFL!!!

Seriously, though, Australians are cool.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:46 pm

Grin... I've spent a lot of time in America over the years (love being there) and continue to be amazed by our similarities and even more by our differences... you think when you speak the same language (okay you Guys have very weird accents) ...... grin..

eeeeekkkkkk... if your Vice Pres goes hunting over here, I'm bailing....

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:20 pm

BabyRider wrote: And Jives? Where the hell have you been?

Just gettin' in touch with my new found family! Oh... and snowed in all weekend long!:wah: