Capital Punishment

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:41 am

What are you thoughts on capital punishment? Are you for it or aginst it?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:59 am

samanthaguy wrote: What are you thoughts on capital punishment? Are you for it or aginst it?

Yes. HTH.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:54 pm

I'm against it. I was for it at one time and then decided that keeping the perps cooped up for the rest of their lives is a better punishment. Life with no parole. I would prefer death to being incarcerated for 15 20 or 30 more years, even with the access to TV etc.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:58 pm

I vote Yes,

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:19 pm

I'm against it. But it's a hard call sometimes.

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:25 pm

I sorta look at it like this, just for names sake say.... bob kills john and goes to trial in bobs own mind some way some how he felt he was doing the right thing by killing john, he is sentenced to death. ralph the man who carries out capital punishment kills bob, b/c the system felt they were doing what was right. After all is said and done ralph goes home to his wife and lives a normal life after taking someones life, right or wrong isnt killing someone still killing someone? how can ralph get away with it and bob not?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:35 pm

one is murder, an illegal homicide. one is state-sanctioned, a legal homicide. the executioner has not committed a crime.

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:40 pm

how can homicide be anything other than homicide, who really has the power to decide whrn it is time to take anothers life?

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:42 pm

Good question!

Do you think soldiers are murderers? (just asking...not judging)

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:44 pm

i was responding exactly to your scenario. homicide means killing a human. there is illegal and legal and accidental homicide. as well as different degrees under the law. that is the essence of the entire death penalty debate, does one believe in state-sanctioned death? whether your objections are religious or moral or legal. so starting from there, the debate rages on.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:46 pm

A Karenina wrote: Good question!

Do you think soldiers are murderers? (just asking...not judging)
soldiers are authorized to kill enemy combatants. legal homicide. i am authorized to kill criminals under certain conditions. legal homicide.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:50 pm

I am authorized to kill bugs that come into my home, but that's it. LOL

I totally understand where you're coming from. The other day I watched an interesting documentary on French executioners. Apparently it was a "family" business, and the job was passed down through the males.

minks · Post by **minks** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:05 pm

A Karenina wrote: I am authorized to kill bugs that come into my home, but that's it. LOL

I totally understand where you're coming from. The other day I watched an interesting documentary on French executioners. Apparently it was a "family" business, and the job was passed down through the males.

And their best friends and good neighbors bore the name Hitler... sorry what a job.

I am for capital punishment. With DNA testing now days, there isn't much room for error. Our jails are way to full and why as tax payers should we pay for these people to live.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:08 pm

being "licensed" to kill is a serious mandate, and one not taken lightly. you need to know if you really can do it. whether soldier or cop or state executioner. most people in those professions come to terms with that early-on and develop a philosophy that works for them. there are myriad questions about the death penalty, problems through history, and i have seen that no-one's mind gets changed on an issue like this. but it is always a spirited debate.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:47 am

minks wrote: I am for capital punishment. With DNA testing now days, there isn't much room for error.

There is, in fact, far more room for error than one might think. I certainly no not think that a conviction based soley on DNA evidence is likely to be 100% safe.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:17 am

Lon wrote: I'm against it. I was for it at one time and then decided that keeping the perps cooped up for the rest of their lives is a better punishment. Life with no parole. I would prefer death to being incarcerated for 15 20 or 30 more years, even with the access to TV etc.

100% agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:26 am

minks wrote: (On French executioners -) And their best friends and good neighbors bore the name Hitler... sorry what a job.

I am for capital punishment. With DNA testing now days, there isn't much room for error. Our jails are way to full and why as tax payers should we pay for these people to live.
Minks, I'm confused by your post. I'm seeing a contradiction by implying executioners are Nazis and then praising the death penalty because it's (supposedly) less expensive. ?? I know you'll straighten me out, if I just ask. So, I'm asking.

For the record, I do not believe soldiers or executioners are murderers. They are hired, sanctioned, whatever and they represent the people. What they do, they do for us, in our name. There is a huge difference between a person who kills, and one who has to kill to keep others safe.

It's had to find facts and figures anymore, but according to information that used to be available from the GAO (General Accounting Office), it's more expensive to execute someone than it is to keep them in prison for life.

Still, I get a bit sick to my stomach when we use finances as a reason to execute or not. (no offense meant to you, Minks) Ideally, the question is between justice and/or vengeance. Between keeping a people safe (which life imprisonment does) and punishing a convict (which both life imprisonment and capital punishment does).

How we treat the lowest among us defines who we are, our national character, and all that.

People use various reasons to support the death penalty. The most commonly used reason is taken from the Bible...an eye for an eye. There are two problems with that. For the sake of brevity, which is totally alien to me!, I'll address the largest one.

Jesus said that he came to change the law. It is no longer an eye for an eye, but to turn the other cheek. If we use Biblical reasoning to validate our actions today, we cannot use this particular phrase with a clear conscience and call ourselves Christians at the same time. (My opinion, of course).

In addition, Jews will tell you that an eye for an eye is not literal. It was the value of an eye for an eye.

So what is the value of a life for a life? To me, it can only mean that the prisoner's life is forfeit to the people. Which, in turn, seemingly supports the death penalty...until you add in the fact that we are to be good stewards, we are to care for those who are weaker (in every way) among us, and so we have two duties. First, to protect the innocent, and second to give a just punishment to the convicted.

Life in prison works for me, as it accomplishes both duties. But, I'd love to see some radical changes in our prison system.

First of all, if a prisoner's "life" or mode of living is forfeit to us, then he should spend the rest of his life trying to give back anything he can to the society he brutally robbed.

Second, everyone is required to support themselves. Why are prisoners any different? Let them grow their own food, make their own clothes, etc. It's not a punishment - work is a fact of life.

And if we can improve work programs, if we can offer skills to prisoners who will be released one day, then we've done our job - both punished and offered the opportunity for an alternative liefstyle.

Third, I think we should study the extreme cases. Not to "cure" them, but to learn more about the causes and possible treatments (if any) for future generations. Study does not mean horrible brain surgeries or drug testing.

Fourth, I have no problem with offering education in prisons. Or exercise. Or art, music, books, or anything else that inspires people.

And I think we can empty out the grass users in order to make room for real criminals.

I'm a bit off topic now, though it all ties together. That's my quick and dirty view.

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:30 am

I understand you issue with paying taxes for people who are in jail, but most people who get the death penalty die in jail before it is ever carried out. I just dont feel like whatever the reason no one should take anothers life, it gives new meaning to the saying 2 wrongs dont make a right. people who have had horrible things happen to themselves or family and had to go through trials and such may see it differently. Ijust feel like theres another way,(not sure what it is) to make these people pay, as dumb as it sounds, when they are dead they are dead, yes it makes the public safer one less crazy person on the street but they are not paying for anything.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:34 am

We must also consider that over 100 people have been released from Death Row for wrongful convictions since 1978. Samanthaguy, I'm not sure how much you've read on the subject, but you may want to read George Ryan's story. He was the governor in Illinois who called for a moratorium on the death penalty, along with a 3-year in-depth investigation. His decision and the results are fascinating. His story in his own words as he works his way through this issue is wonderful.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:16 pm

A Karenina wrote: Minks, I'm confused by your post. I'm seeing a contradiction by implying executioners are Nazis and then praising the death penalty because it's (supposedly) less expensive. ?? I know you'll straighten me out, if I just ask. So, I'm asking.

For the record, I do not believe soldiers or executioners are murderers. They are hired, sanctioned, whatever and they represent the people. What they do, they do for us, in our name. There is a huge difference between a person who kills, and one who has to kill to keep others safe.

It's had to find facts and figures anymore, but according to information that used to be available from the GAO (General Accounting Office), it's more expensive to execute someone than it is to keep them in prison for life.

Still, I get a bit sick to my stomach when we use finances as a reason to execute or not. (no offense meant to you, Minks) Ideally, the question is between justice and/or vengeance. Between keeping a people safe (which life imprisonment does) and punishing a convict (which both life imprisonment and capital punishment does).

How we treat the lowest among us defines who we are, our national character, and all that.

People use various reasons to support the death penalty. The most commonly used reason is taken from the Bible...an eye for an eye. There are two problems with that. For the sake of brevity, which is totally alien to me!, I'll address the largest one.

Jesus said that he came to change the law. It is no longer an eye for an eye, but to turn the other cheek. If we use Biblical reasoning to validate our actions today, we cannot use this particular phrase with a clear conscience and call ourselves Christians at the same time. (My opinion, of course).

In addition, Jews will tell you that an eye for an eye is not literal. It was the value of an eye for an eye.

So what is the value of a life for a life? To me, it can only mean that the prisoner's life is forfeit to the people. Which, in turn, seemingly supports the death penalty...until you add in the fact that we are to be good stewards, we are to care for those who are weaker (in every way) among us, and so we have two duties. First, to protect the innocent, and second to give a just punishment to the convicted.

Life in prison works for me, as it accomplishes both duties. But, I'd love to see some radical changes in our prison system.

First of all, if a prisoner's "life" or mode of living is forfeit to us, then he should spend the rest of his life trying to give back anything he can to the society he brutally robbed.

Second, everyone is required to support themselves. Why are prisoners any different? Let them grow their own food, make their own clothes, etc. It's not a punishment - work is a fact of life.

And if we can improve work programs, if we can offer skills to prisoners who will be released one day, then we've done our job - both punished and offered the opportunity for an alternative liefstyle.

Third, I think we should study the extreme cases. Not to "cure" them, but to learn more about the causes and possible treatments (if any) for future generations. Study does not mean horrible brain surgeries or drug testing.

Fourth, I have no problem with offering education in prisons. Or exercise. Or art, music, books, or anything else that inspires people.

And I think we can empty out the grass users in order to make room for real criminals.

I'm a bit off topic now, though it all ties together. That's my quick and dirty view.

:yh_worshp :yh_worshp :yh_worshp

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:49 pm

kensloft, you're making me blush. (thank you)

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:59 pm

A Karenina wrote: kensloft, you're making me blush. (thank you)

No. Thank You!!!!

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:00 pm

this is what i like about FG...i can have differing opinions from people i really like a lot! the death penalty debate causes some heated passions and arguments, but we can respectfully disagree. i believe in the DP and it is not just because i am a LEO. we have had other threads here on this topic, so a lot may be restatements. i personally know approx. 26 murderers. i also knew a man who was executed, i spent one of his last nights supervising him. an interesting conversation ensued. i am perfectly comfortable with the execution of some of the stone killers i am familiar with. but i better be 100% certain they are the killer. i have many reasons for the way i feel, and am also conversant with the horrible errors and injustices which have occurred through history of DP in US. my opinion is arrived at by weighing each side of the debate carefully. i will say i am glad for the Innocence Project which exonerates the truly innocent through DNA.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:00 pm

I like you. And not just because you're smart and funny...oh no. It's because you are the only person I know who thanks me for rambling. LOL!

Getting back to the thread ~ have you heard George Ryan speak about this? Really amazing stuff.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:04 pm

lady cop wrote: this is what i like about FG...i can have differing opinions from people i really like a lot! the death penalty debate causes some heated passions and arguments, but we can respectfully disagree.
Amen, sister!! :-6

lady cop wrote: i believe in the DP and it is not just because i am a LEO. we have had other threads here on this topic, so a lot may be restatements. i personally know approx. 26 murderers. i also knew a man who was executed, i spent one of his last nights supervising him. an interesting conversation ensued. i am perfectly comfortable with the execution of some of the stone killers i am familiar with. but i better be 100% certain they are the killer. i have many reasons for the way i feel, and am also conversant with the horrible errors and injustices which have occurred through history of DP in US. my opinion is arrived at by weighing each side of the debate carefully. i will say i am glad for the Innocence Project which exonerates the truly innocent through DNA.
It's one of those issues where you can see the right of both sides, and you must decide which is more right. Like that made any sense. I've always said that Ted Bundy was the poster child for the Death Penalty. A vicious killer and an escape artist.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:15 pm

Once again it is hard to agree because we don't have any Bundys or whoevers to look at to see what is working. Death or non-death?

It seems a loss to science that these boneheads couldn't have spent their lives under the microscope. Who knows what we could have discovered that may help us to stop others of their ilk from wreaking their horror on good people. I would be more inclined to rather try and solve the problem than I am to keep repeating it.

Don't know if it'll work but... ?

Deaths of people you love sucks even more than big time.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:15 pm

i know full well with no uncertainty that bundy will never kill another human being. and i am waiting for florida to finally execute the gainseville ripper, danny rolling. i could stick the needle in danny's arm myself.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:20 pm

kensloft wrote:

It seems a loss to science that these boneheads couldn't have spent their lives under the microscope. Who knows what we could have discovered that may help us to stop others of their ilk from wreaking their horror on good people
bundy and his ilk HAVE been studied by the FBI serial killer unit. there will always be another bundy along in a few minutes. there are classic serial killer predictors. and profiles. but the intellectual knowledge does not serve to prevent.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:21 pm

lady cop wrote: i know full well with no uncertainty that bundy will never kill another human being. and i am waiting for florida to finally execute the gainseville ripper, danny rolling. i could stick the needle in myself on danny.

Ah. The great divide between the experienced and the unexperienced.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:24 pm

kensloft wrote: Ah. The great divide between the experienced and the unexperienced.
your opinion is based on many factors which are just as valid as my experience, and i respect you and your mind. i see some ugly crap. it does influence me. none of this is sterile. but i am not a knee-jerk pro DP cop. i really try to think things through.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:44 pm

lady cop wrote: your opinion is based on many factors which are just as valid as my experience, and i respect you and your mind. i see some ugly crap. it does influence me. none of this is sterile. but i am not a knee-jerk pro DP cop. i really try to think things through.

I wouldn't be able to talk with you if you were anything other than the person you are. If you knew me and you knew my friends it wouldn't be long before you picked up that they were surprized that I would even think about paying a compliment to someone. I'm not a Hughe's type.Iit is just that there aren't many people like you about and as active as you are. Dilligence with thought/

:-4

I am not going to change your mind because it is made up but it is that type of mind that listens to what is right and will do what is right when the opportunity presents itself.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:49 pm

lady cop wrote: bundy and his ilk HAVE been studied by the FBI serial killer unit. there will always be another bundy along in a few minutes. there are classic serial killer predictors. and profiles. but the intellectual knowledge does not serve to prevent.
Ohhhhh, that makes me sad. You truly don't believe that we can eventually find the things that make this behavior likely?

The heart of me centers around the notion of human potential. That we can and do progress, slowly but (for the most part) positively. We know so much more than we ever have before. We're able to help people and understand things that have been unknown for centuries - basic health, sickness, mental illness, cleanliness, etc.

I also think it's positive that we know more about serial killers before they begin to strike human targets - that they practice on animals, that they are often bedwetters long after they shouldn't be, etc. I'm not in your field, so I don't know if it's truly helpful or not...but from my view it seems like every bit of information we can glean is a good thing.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:58 pm

kensloft, you give me too much credit

. and AK , i do not mean this in a sarcastic way at all, but we have known for many years the formulae to create a serial killer. i know what causes ebola, but there's not a damn thing i can do to prevent the next outbreak. trouble is, not everyone complies with the profile and it takes a pattern of deaths to establish their existance, right now there are estimated to be about 27 seriai killers operating in the states.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:10 pm

lady cop wrote: kensloft, you give me too much credit

. and AK , i do not mean this in a sarcastic way at all, but we have known for many years the formulae to create a serial killer. i know what causes ebola, but there's not a damn thing i can do to prevent the next outbreak. trouble is, not everyone complies with the profile and it takes a pattern of deaths to establish their existance, right now there are estimated to be about 27 seriai killers operating in the states.
I know you're not being sarcastic.

Thanks for reassuring me, though!

Your point is very valid. I guess I see it as the other half of mine, rather than the opposite. Hmmmm....my mind really is a scary place, huh?

What I mean is that we're at the beginning stages. It's true that a serial killer would have to begin killing in order for anyone to charge him, and then the repetition, as you said. Spotting the predilection doesn't do much today. But it's possible that it can someday. That's what I hold on to.

Of course, I also believe we'll kick cancer someday. And find cleaner energy sources. Then we'll have a whole new set of problems.

ok, I'm depressing myself! LOL...I think I'll go off to cross-stitch for a bit to relax.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:39 pm

The death penalty, presumedly, exists not for revenge against the murderers but as a deterent. In the past, the penalty was carried out in brutal ways ie)stoning, crucifixion etc. People were afraid of a painful death and so it somewhat effectively acted as a deterent. Now that we are "civilized" and are more humane in the method of execution it isn't working so well.

I certainly am not suggesting that we start crucifying people again. But capital punishment is no longer serving its intended purpose.

Post by **kensloft** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:45 pm

A Karenina wrote: I know you're not being sarcastic.

Thanks for reassuring me, though!

Your point is very valid. I guess I see it as the other half of mine, rather than the opposite. Hmmmm....my mind really is a scary place, huh?

What I mean is that we're at the beginning stages. It's true that a serial killer would have to begin killing in order for anyone to charge him, and then the repetition, as you said. Spotting the predilection doesn't do much today. But it's possible that it can someday. That's what I hold on to.

Of course, I also believe we'll kick cancer someday. And find cleaner energy sources. Then we'll have a whole new set of problems.

ok, I'm depressing myself! LOL...I think I'll go off to cross-stitch for a bit to relax.

You are too much!

lc your reality, which is the stronger of the two at this moment, shouldn't preclude(I don't think it does... just talkin') the thought that perhaps, one day, our conviction will be as strong and as forceful as your conviction is today.

It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

Profiles drawn up by the FBI are not the same as profiles that are thrown together by the medical establishment's study of the phenomenon. Each has its purpose and they both have the bottom line of ending this horror. Where would we be today in mental health or cancer research were it not for the science that surrounds us,.

I defer to your emotions because you are living under the rules and regulations of your country and its realities are not like those of Canada at the moment. We will keep trying, just like we always do, to see if there isn't something that can be done.

Doesn't mean that you could go whole hog wild on clearing out the jails of the detritus of the world. <--- This is not aimed for you but for others who don't get your supreme humour and sense of balance. We, as you full well know, have to maintain the balance of right and wrong. Presently the ball is in your court.

LoveMama · Post by **LoveMama** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:46 pm

lady cop wrote: being "licensed" to kill is a serious mandate, and one not taken lightly. you need to know if you really can do it.

Whether soldier or cop or state executioner. most people in those professions come to terms with that early-on and develop a philosophy that works for them. there are myriad questions about the death penalty, problems through history, and i have seen that no-one's mind gets changed on an issue like this. but it is always a spirited

LINDA....debate.

LADYCOP...OR LIND* AS I KNOW YOU.

It is a serious mandate!

For years' I've been against the death penalty. I am a Christian but I don't think that it's the reason I'm against it. My youngest son who is a "huge' Christian is totally for it! But I'm old! I was raised in a very different era AND I think that Life without parole is a much worse sentence! I'm I'd be thrown out of Texas.

Thank to God. Very few of us here in CA give a shi* what Texas does or thinks!

There are Countries in the world, where if you steal you get you hand cut off and very few people in these countries 'steal' You can leave your bicycle anywhere and nobody would take it!

BUT ....chosing to take the life of a convicted murderer..

should we as honest and non criminal human being's decide that we agree to the death penalty.....I honestly really don't know.

God all mighty I'm old already but I still can't really............agree as a human being to take someones life.. I just don't think that as part of the human race and I don't think it is OUR decision NOR the State of Texas or anyone else in charge~

I don't know how many people know this but*the STate of CA hardly recoginize's

the State of Texas. Poor Laura Bush, who has publically come out as saying " she likes to read" has never ever figured out that a huge amount of people like to do the same thing!

I'm praying she find's Amazon.com soon!

At this point *inda, I'm more concerned about whose running this country than who's getting the 'death penalty'

Yo Mama

xxxxxxxxxxxo

mama (Louise)

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:35 am

kensloft wrote: You are too much!
(hair toss) I know.

:p

kensloft wrote: lc your reality, which is the stronger of the two at this moment, shouldn't preclude(I don't think it does... just talkin') the thought that perhaps, one day, our conviction will be as strong and as forceful as your conviction is today.

It won't happen overnight but it will happen.
Thank you for sharing my optimism.

kensloft wrote: Profiles drawn up by the FBI are not the same as profiles that are thrown together by the medical establishment's study of the phenomenon. Each has its purpose and they both have the bottom line of ending this horror. Where would we be today in mental health or cancer research were it not for the science that surrounds us.
You're right! It's perfectly obvious now that you've said it, but I've been missing this link until now. I have to think on this for a bit.

kensloft wrote: I defer to your emotions because you are living under the rules and regulations of your country and its realities are not like those of Canada at the moment. We will keep trying, just like we always do, to see if there isn't something that can be done.

Doesn't mean that you could go whole hog wild on clearing out the jails of the detritus of the world.
Clearing out the jails :wah:

I'll take a moment to publicly admire your thoughts here; the acknowledgement of the realities, the hope of something better, the necessity of balance, and for FINALLY giving me the ball! LOL

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:44 am

in post #37, there is a quote of something i wrote. the weird thing is, the 'LINDA' that appears in the quote was NOT typed in there by me in original post. i am wondering how in heck it got there.

LoveMama · Post by **LoveMama** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:11 am

lady cop wrote: in post #37, there is a quote of something i wrote. the weird thing is, the 'LINDA' that appears in the quote was NOT typed in there by me in original post. i am wondering how in heck it got there.

LC....that's my post, I just saw what you're talking about and I have no idea how that got in there either!

Ask Cass......she knows more about computers than I do.

Very weird.

xxxxxxooooo

mama

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:23 am

Is the PLO or IRA freedom fighters?

I think not

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:30 pm

flowers wrote: I think it depends how individuals are treated and how these individuals treat others that determines how you place status (like freedom fighter) on them. For whatever reason, if you're jailed without the right to a trial then that can categorise a freedom fighter. Becoz if a crime gets committed and a person gets detained without the ability to have a trial then the system is just as bad as the perpetrator. In the UK some innocent Irish folk were locked up for being Irish - not coz they were part of the IRA. If a country came and bombed your house and killed all your folks (as has happened to many Palestinians) and there was absolutely no recourse to justice then you might just join the PLO and label yourself a freedom fighter. But in most eyes (from the west) you'd maybe get labelled an extremist who needs locking up - coz you may be prepared to use violence (like a suicide bomb) to kill. People never know the finer details of what brings 'freedom fighters' together in a common struggle. What I don't understand about freedom fighters is the tendency to maim or kill innocent people. You'd expect the PLO to go after the Israeli army or the judiciary or the government - but not innocent folk shopping in a mall. I'd expect the IRA to target the British government and not innocent people shopping in London. I'd expect most people to address their grievances directly...

but then I guess it ain't always possible to arrange an urgent meeting with Blair or Sharon or any other high browed person in any government. I think the hallmark of power in any government is its ability to ignore the destruction it causes. It teaches us to excuse the system because the system is so good at disregarding pain caused by their actions.

Someone's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter...

All those words, such flawed logic. The answer is painfully simple. when combatants refuse to wear identifying uniforms, and purposely target innocent citizens on a random basis, they are terrorists.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:49 pm

flowers wrote: I think it depends how individuals are treated and how these individuals treat others that determines how you place status (like freedom fighter) on them. For whatever reason, if you're jailed without the right to a trial then that can categorise a freedom fighter. Becoz if a crime gets committed and a person gets detained without the ability to have a trial then the system is just as bad as the perpetrator. In the UK some innocent Irish folk were locked up for being Irish - not coz they were part of the IRA. If a country came and bombed your house and killed all your folks (as has happened to many Palestinians) and there was absolutely no recourse to justice then you might just join the PLO and label yourself a freedom fighter. But in most eyes (from the west) you'd maybe get labelled an extremist who needs locking up - coz you may be prepared to use violence (like a suicide bomb) to kill. People never know the finer details of what brings 'freedom fighters' together in a common struggle. What I don't understand about freedom fighters is the tendency to maim or kill innocent people. You'd expect the PLO to go after the Israeli army or the judiciary or the government - but not innocent folk shopping in a mall. I'd expect the IRA to target the British government and not innocent people shopping in London. I'd expect most people to address their grievances directly...

but then I guess it ain't always possible to arrange an urgent meeting with Blair or Sharon or any other high browed person in any government. I think the hallmark of power in any government is its ability to ignore the destruction it causes. It teaches us to excuse the system because the system is so good at disregarding pain caused by their actions.

Someone's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter... :)Excuse me, but the IRA bombed London and other cities in the UK from the 1940 up to the 1980s. Killing hundereds of innocent people.

Post by **kensloft** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:01 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Excuse me, but the IRA bombed London and other cities in the UK from the 1940 up to the 1980s. Killing hundereds of innocent people.
Are you an anti-Ireland pseudo Irishman?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:26 pm

kensloft wrote: Are you an anti-Ireland pseudo Irishman?Excuse me? Not on your life.

Post by **kensloft** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:35 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Excuse me? Not on your life.
I keep seeing the ira and plo being used in the terms as being similar groups and that tends to make me wonder. Sometimes when I wonder, I do so out loud.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:38 pm

kensloft wrote: I keep seeing the ira and plo being used in the terms as being similar groups and that tends to make me wonder. Sometimes when I wonder, I do so out loud.The above are terrorists who lend support for other terrorist groups around the world

Post by **kensloft** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:49 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: The above are terrorists who lend support for other terrorist groups around the world
So, you are saying that they are all like that? There are no splinter groups within the structure? There are no affiliations that come into being witout everybody knowing about them? They're all socialists or muslim associates?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:48 pm

Speaking about here re splinter IRA groups come Real IRA, 32 county IRA, INLA are all part of of the same alter ego group Sinn Fein IRA, who in turn support other terrorists groups in Europe and elsewhere.