Do you believe in Fate?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:52 am

Lion In Green asked a very interesting question. I believe in free will. I don't see how fate and free will can co-exist. If there is fate, meaning God/forces of Nature conspire to cause things to happen, people to meet, etc., then there can be no true free will.

What say you?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:21 am

Clipper wrote: Look at your life every day and you will see that fate and free will certainly do co-exist nicely.

'splain, please Lucy?

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:47 am

Hi, Accountable!

I have thought a lot about that. I don't believe in fate, yet I believe very strongly in free will. None of us would be accountable for our actions if we had no free will. Yet those of us who believe strongly in God believe that God is in control. We believe that even the faith we have is not our own product but a gift from God.

Humans have a habit that when two ideas seem incompatible, they either feel they are forced to reject one idea and embrace the other, or, failing to reconcile them, they give up and live in a sort of undecided fog. I try to look for a third option that harmonizes the paradoxes of life. Sometimes something intriguing and beautiful comes out of it. In this case, what came out of it is something I call the Mosaic Theory "Mosaic" here has nothing to do with Moses, but meaning, little colored pieces of stone or tile that joined together make a bigger picture.

I thought for example, what does it mean in Exodus 9:12 that "the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart? (so he wouldn't let God's people go) If the Lord made Pharaoh like a robot who had no will of his own, and made Pharaoh resist Him, God then would be unrighteous to judge Pharaoh. You would wonder how many other people's hearts God had hardened, and then there would be a serious question in the universe about whether God was fit to be our judge at all, let alone our law giver or king. But there is a principle that the same sun that hardens window putty softens wax. Some of us, when faced with the Lord's discipline and rebuke, get stiff necked and resist Him. Some of us, receiving the identical treatment from God, repent and fall on our knees and worship Him. The "putty and wax" principle says that God may treat every human being the same, and some will believe and obey, and some will disbelieve and disobey. The thing the Lord did to Pharaoh that hardened Pharaoh's heart, He has done to others, and it softened them and made them repent. The hardening or softening response was the product of the character of the person. We may not be responsible for what happens to us, but we are responsible for how we react to it.

Another verse I believe literally and totally is 1 Timothy 2:4, that God, "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I believe Jesus wanted Judas to be saved. I believe that Jesus did everything He could to win Judas' heart. But it was Judas himself that reacted the way he did because of his character.

Here's where my Mosaic theory comes in. The fact that Judas and Pharaoh reacted wrongly and probably were lost doesn't in any way detract from God's love and mercy for all people. I assume that God did everything it would take to save them. I believe likewise about all people. When those who are lost finally face the judgment, not one will be able to say they were not given a fair chance at redemption. If they were to see a replay of their lives, they would see that they really had every opportunity to love God. Let's say Judas and Pharaoh are "dark" pieces in the mosaic of the history of mankind and God's dealings with us. There are also many light pieces. If you could stand back and see the entire mosaic, "the big picture," it would describe a God more lovely and desirable than any human being can imagine.

By causing us to be born in the circumstances we are, to the parents we are, in the locality- geographical and chronological, God puts us into His mosaic. He brings us into encounters with one another, and if we are perceptive enough to realize it, into encounters with Him. Like putty or wax, we develop our characters by our choices. God meanwhile works out all things so that every one of us will live to have the greatest possible chance of salvation given our character and will.

Even if one is orphaned, though no one would want that, it can become a great character building experience. God is coloring and shaping each one of us to fit, even by our own will and choices, into a mosaic that reveals His glory through us. Whether we are a light piece or a dark piece is our choice, but the catch is, that God who sees all of history eternity past to eternity future simultaneously as clearly as we see the present, knows everything that will ever happen, and knows every choice we will ever make of our free will, before we make it. Even if we turn out to be a dark piece, like Pharaoh or Judas, it will be revealed in the end that God has, knowing all our choices in advance, done everything possible to save us.

What do you think?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:49 am

Clipper wrote: Example: If you choose of yer own free will to eat 16 ounces of laxative and then choose not to utilize the bathroom when needed thereby crapping yer pants....is the crapping of yer pants fate or free will?:D

I believe in 'Cause and Effect'.

The crapping of pants (the effect) ('scuse me for giggling) was caused by the eating of laxatives ...it was niether fate or free will but a consequence of taking the laxative, which was taken using free will.

Not using the bathroom was caused by...

a conscious decision not to do so...or

an underestimation of the effect of the laxatives

I'm having a problem getting my point over here...I need to go and read some stuff so that I can make my point more clearly. ..but i think what I'm trying to say is that everyone has responsibility for what happens to them, everyone around them and to the environment....I struggle with 'destiny' and 'fate'. If something good or bad happens to me or mine, it can always be traced back to a word, deed etc.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:17 am

Clipper wrote: Look at your life every day and you will see that fate and free will certainly do co-exist nicely.

I do not believe fate and free will co-exist. I do not believe it was fate that made my husband ill so I have to nurse him the rest of his life. It is my free will to choose to nurse him, instead of relegating him to a nursing home. But it is not my fate...................

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:52 am

telaquapacky wrote: Hi, Accountable!

I have thought a lot about that. I don't believe in fate, yet I believe very strongly in free will. None of us would be accountable for our actions if we had no free will. Yet those of us who believe strongly in God believe that God is in control. We believe that even the faith we have is not our own product but a gift from God.

Humans have a habit that when two ideas seem incompatible, they either feel they are forced to reject one idea and embrace the other, or, failing to reconcile them, they give up and live in a sort of undecided fog. I try to look for a third option that harmonizes the paradoxes of life. Sometimes something intriguing and beautiful comes out of it. In this case, what came out of it is something I call the Mosaic Theory "Mosaic" here has nothing to do with Moses, but meaning, little colored pieces of stone or tile that joined together make a bigger picture.

I thought for example, what does it mean in Exodus 9:12 that "the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart? (so he wouldn't let God's people go) If the Lord made Pharaoh like a robot who had no will of his own, and made Pharaoh resist Him, God then would be unrighteous to judge Pharaoh. You would wonder how many other people's hearts God had hardened, and then there would be a serious question in the universe about whether God was fit to be our judge at all, let alone our law giver or king. But there is a principle that the same sun that hardens window putty softens wax. Some of us, when faced with the Lord's discipline and rebuke, get stiff necked and resist Him. Some of us, receiving the identical treatment from God, repent and fall on our knees and worship Him. The "putty and wax" principle says that God may treat every human being the same, and some will believe and obey, and some will disbelieve and disobey. The thing the Lord did to Pharaoh that hardened Pharaoh's heart, He has done to others, and it softened them and made them repent. The hardening or softening response was the product of the character of the person. We may not be responsible for what happens to us, but we are responsible for how we react to it.

Another verse I believe literally and totally is 1 Timothy 2:4, that God, "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I believe Jesus wanted Judas to be saved. I believe that Jesus did everything He could to win Judas' heart. But it was Judas himself that reacted the way he did because of his character.

Here's where my Mosaic theory comes in. The fact that Judas and Pharaoh reacted wrongly and probably were lost doesn't in any way detract from God's love and mercy for all people. I assume that God did everything it would take to save them. I believe likewise about all people. When those who are lost finally face the judgment, not one will be able to say they were not given a fair chance at redemption. If they were to see a replay of their lives, they would see that they really had every opportunity to love God. Let's say Judas and Pharaoh are "dark" pieces in the mosaic of the history of mankind and God's dealings with us. There are also many light pieces. If you could stand back and see the entire mosaic, "the big picture," it would describe a God more lovely and desirable than any human being can imagine.

By causing us to be born in the circumstances we are, to the parents we are, in the locality- geographical and chronological, God puts us into His mosaic. He brings us into encounters with one another, and if we are perceptive enough to realize it, into encounters with Him. Like putty or wax, we develop our characters by our choices. God meanwhile works out all things so that every one of us will live to have the greatest possible chance of salvation given our character and will.

Even if one is orphaned, though no one would want that, it can become a great character building experience. God is coloring and shaping each one of us to fit, even by our own will and choices, into a mosaic that reveals His glory through us. Whether we are a light piece or a dark piece is our choice, but the catch is, that God who sees all of history eternity past to eternity future simultaneously as clearly as we see the present, knows everything that will ever happen, and knows every choice we will ever make of our free will, before we make it. Even if we turn out to be a dark piece, like Pharaoh or Judas, it will be revealed in the end that God has, knowing all our choices in advance, done everything possible to save us.

What do you think?
See, "bringing us into encounters" smacks of manipulation. For God/fate to put someone in my path would mean taking away at least one of our free will.

I believe God set up the ground rules - nature and all it's laws - and lets it ride. (I suddenly get this vision of the old vibrating buzzing football game toy from the 60's

) I believe He has hopes, maybe even plans, for us, but the least outside manipulation without our request negates free will.

minks · Post by **minks** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:15 am

Free will only,

kind of the "for every action there is a re-action"

Fate is merely "chance"

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:57 am

Accountable wrote: See, "bringing us into encounters" smacks of manipulation. For God/fate to put someone in my path would mean taking away at least one of our free will.Pretty self confident, aint ya? The Biblical image of humanity is of sheep- dumb, prone to wander into danger, prone to self deception and self destruction. Have you observed otherwise? I would think some guidance would be welcome.

Remember putty and wax. In any encounter, you are still free to choose how to react to it. Without some encouragement toward the good, one could rightly complain that they weren't adequately informed of their choices.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:03 am

minks wrote: Free will only,

kind of the "for every action there is a re-action"

Fate is merely "chance"

I think this is what I mean by 'cause and effect'.....every time you cause something to happen....there is some kind of effect.

SweetDarlin · Post by **SweetDarlin** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:27 am

I believe there is an element of fate in existence... I do not believe it is "Manipulated" by anyone... so therefor in my own personal beliefs.. they can co-exhist.

(In general I don't believe in it)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:47 am

telaquapacky wrote: Pretty self confident, aint ya? The Biblical image of humanity is of sheep- dumb, prone to wander into danger, prone to self deception and self destruction. Have you observed otherwise? I would think some guidance would be welcome.
IMO the guidance is there if we choose to see it. It's in learning from our own mistakes, from watching others, and from listening to the wise.

telaquapacky wrote: Remember putty and wax. In any encounter, you are still free to choose how to react to it. Without some encouragement toward the good, one could rightly complain that they weren't adequately informed of their choices.
I don't understand the last sentence at all. :-2

For the rest of it, I agree we choose how to react to a situation - we ALL can choose. That negates any chance of fate placing someone in our path, because the "placed" person would be defacto without choice.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:53 am

It's pretty cool & romantic to say fate brought my wife and I together. After all, a whole string of misadventures landed me in Okinawa, and neither of us enjoyed going to the beach (me because I'm too white & burn easily, she because she thinks she's dark enough without sun). Yet, we each allowed our friends to talk us into going for a day at the same beach, and coincidentally chose the same spot of shade.

It's cool & romantic, so I say it on Valentines day and anniversaries, but I don't believe it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:01 pm

JAB wrote: I think things happen for a reason but I wouldn't necessarily call that fate. Fate speaks too much of inaction to me.I don't understand.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:33 pm

JAB wrote: I think things happen for a reason but I wouldn't necessarily call that fate. Fate speaks too much of inaction to me.

The reason things happen is because someone somewhere has made a decision and acted on it.....fate and destiny ? are they the same ?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:25 am

Exactly.

downtown · Post by **downtown** » Thu May 11, 2006 2:03 am

Accountable wrote: Lion In Green asked a very interesting question. I believe in free will. I don't see how fate and free will can co-exist. If there is fate, meaning God/forces of Nature conspire to cause things to happen, people to meet, etc., then there can be no true free will.

What say you?

No free wil indeed.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:10 am

downtown wrote: No free wil indeed.Umm... okay. :-3

Sorry, I really tried to pull meaning from your post and can't. Would you care to elaborate?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:06 pm

I have serious concerns about the whole idea of God planning anyone's life or influencing folks to behave in one way or another. He does not harden peoples' hearts nor does he necessarily present them with choices beyond the natural events of life. Consider the child born into a very devout Muslim family. He is taught all his life that Islam is the only true faith; that non other is valid. He grows up with this knowledge getting ever stronger day by day just as does the devout Christian.

If s/he subsequently meets a devout Christian who presents him with the Christian gospel why should he be compelled to believe it when he knows that he has the truth? What will convince him?

The same holds true for the Christian. S/he is presented with the truth of Islam. How is it that he can be compelled to accept it when s/he knows s/he already has the truth.

In short what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The Christian can say his is the truth because it comes from the Bible and it is God's word because it says so. At the same time the Muslim believes the Qu'rn is God's word because it says so.

Arguments that Jesus is the only true Son of God by his actions. Whereas the Muslim will say that Mohammed is the true prophet and this is observed by his actions are spurious. They are of no value whatsoever.

If we truly have free will and I do so believe then such arguments are non-starters. How can we blame the Christian or the Muslim for his/her choice. By the same token how can we blame the Muslim for his/her choice? In fact how can God blame either for their choice. They were born where they were born and are thus subject to the culture and belief systems into which they were born.

Shalom

Ted:-6

How then are we to resolve this dilemma

moody1 · Post by **moody1** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:30 pm

Accountable wrote: Lion In Green asked a very interesting question. I believe in free will. I don't see how fate and free will can co-exist. If there is fate, meaning God/forces of Nature conspire to cause things to happen, people to meet, etc., then there can be no true free will.

What say you?
I belive in determination, I can't decide wether determination and free will can coexist but at the moment I'm verging on yes it can.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:34 pm

ted :-4

religion has no place here (in my opinion, no offence, your religious debates are good)

im with six & pinky on this one

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:23 pm

What a great topic.

I have looked at this issue closely as a tarot reader. A lot of people think that getting their cards read is like reading a chapter from the book of their lives, but I don't read them that way. There are energy cards that tell you how you are contributing to the situation be it good or bad and gives you a way to change your input.

I have a fairly defined way of looking at the situation. There are more layers to the universe than me and God. (self will and fate respectively)

First concern is to realize that every other person has their own will so exercising our will affects the will of others. Let's call this the Do As Thou Wilt, But Harm No Other Law.

Then there is the equilibrium issue. I think "God's" role is purely to maintain balance in the world. God couldn't be bothered trying to make sure we wear our dress shoes to the party so that the partner of our dreams might notice them and say 'My what pretty footwear' hence starting a utopian relationship. But for everything that happens there is an equal and opposite reaction. Let's call this the Synchronicity Law.

Then there is the problem of our entire understanding of a result being framed in space and time...which may or may not exist. I call this the Forget Everything You Think You Know Law.

I think that the times we feel like we are in the right place doing the right thing are moments that are supposed to happen but how we get there is entirely based on day to day decisions. I think the big things that are like markers on the road of our lives are planned by our (I hate this phrase) Higher Self before we incarnate into a place that is linear. And we, in our evolved state after death, are our only judge. Which kind of scares me because, despite the competition, I am my own worst critic.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:02 pm

koan:-6

I would agree with the idea that we are our own wost critic. I think this happens to most folks though some couldn't care less.

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:19 pm

Ted wrote: koan:-6

I would agree with the idea that we are our own wost critic. I think this happens to most folks though some couldn't care less.

Shalom

Ted:-6

It seems like some don't care but humans have many ways of hiding misery. The first is to deny all negative feelings unless they project on someone else. Another is developing physical illness.

What think you on my philosophy of the three Laws?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:27 pm

koan:-6

I can agree with the first law completely with one exception. Sometimes we can and do harm another in an act of self defense which I think is quite legitimate.

The synconisity law raises questions in my mind. Sometimes I see a reaction that is far greater than the original action. One example would be a man who is made angry by one person but then takes it out on several others.

If we forget everything we think we know then we also dismiss the wisdom of the ages past. Some of that wisdom can be very important even today. An example would be the golden rule.

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:39 pm

Ted wrote: koan:-6

I can agree with the first law completely with one exception. Sometimes we can and do harm another in an act of self defense which I think is quite legitimate.

The synconisity law raises questions in my mind. Sometimes I see a reaction that is far greater than the original action. One example would be a man who is made angry by one person but then takes it out on several others.

If we forget everything we think we know then we also dismiss the wisdom of the ages past. Some of that wisdom can be very important even today. An example would be the golden rule.

Shalom

Ted:-6

In the first circumstance, the person causing need for self defense broke the law first and the reaction attempts to restore balance. Sometimes we harm another without intending it, that gets a little more tricky. No one says life will be easy even if one adheres to every law known to them. But, I think the trickiness is only because we are trying to see the world without an airplane when we think of our own lives.

In the synchronicity example it assumes that the one action and the one reaction are the limit of the relationship. Synchronicity was coined to explain how a stone dropped figuratively on one side of the world ripples an ocean on the other.

On the third point, wisdom and knowledge are two very different things.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:04 pm

koan:-6

Is the basis of wisdom not some knowledge no matter how miniscule?

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:10 pm

Ted wrote: koan:-6

Is the basis of wisdom not some knowledge no matter how miniscule?

Shalom

Ted:-6

The reverse. I think knowledge is based on wisdom to some extent, though any great epiphanies I've had happened when I stopped thinking and just experienced something. Nevertheless, it is up to the reader to glean what wisdom inspired the knowledge.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:23 pm

koan:-6

I do wonder about this though. Consider the "Golden Rule". Must not the basis of this rule have been the knowledge and experience of an individual or many individuals, gained by experience.

I do agree with you about epiphanies. But even here I wonder if we need some knowledge of, at least, a language. We can gain experiences in silent meditation but do we not use our language to make sense of them? Is an awarness and understanding of language not a form of knowledge?

Just raising some socratic questions.

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:38 pm

The idea of language is a very interesting element to introduce. Since experience vs. knowledge arose I will bring up a clear memory of my own. While in meditation, I happened across a moment when I felt lifted up and joined with a timeless, spaceless consciousness. When I was returning to my body (the sensation of) I tried to hold on the a deep understanding that had come to me. I actually had a visual representation of the concept I was clinging to slipping away as I tried to put it into words. When I finished the meditation I still had a sense of the thing I had learned but there was no possible way to put it into the framework of language. Though language helps me to express that experience it doesn't tell you a damn thing about what I learned.

I think the Golden Rule question is addressed if I go on to say that in gatherings, such as lectures, a speaker can engage his audience on a deeper level. For the listener who is really trying to learn from the lecture, they can feel drugged by the end of the lecture, like an altered state of consciousness. I think that wisdom is gained on this subconscious level and then we feebly search for the words to express it. Sometimes we come up with something good and that feeling of truth hits us because the words stir up the subconscious memory which sends the message to our bodies. Sometimes it is the rereading of a book over and over which finally sinks in on a subconscious level activating the response. Hypnosis uses this technique as well, but I'm not implying anything specific.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:43 pm

koan:-6

I too, have had that experience in and following meditation. What an experience.

I do think there are times when I can agree with you on wisdom coming before knowledge. However, I stlll feel that there are other times when knowledge in in fact the basis of wisdom.

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:54 pm

Diuretic wrote: Which is what your nickname implies, I think - where you write about stopping thinking (intellectualising) and simply experiencing something. The use of the koan I mean.

I always found that difficult to understand, the use of the koan.

Sometimes the easiest way to stop thinking is to try and focus on something that can't be thought of. Like the sound of one hand clapping or what is meant by infinity etc.

Ted:D

This where I go "Does too" and you go "Does not" and I go "Does too" and you go "Does not" and I go "Does too" then stick my tongue out (because I'm younger and I can stay awake longer than you can) :yh_whistl :yh_silly

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:44 am

koan:-6

Now that is funny. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6