Accountable wrote: Amazing. All this destruction and not one Israeli casualty? At least, that's how it reads. Israel seems to be doing all the killing and the poor innocent Lebanese can only flee for their lives.
:yh_frustr Where's the balanced report?
There is no single 'balanced' report. To get a balance means looking for more reports from the other countries involved.
My OP consists of two separate reports. One concerning Lebanon and one concerning Israel. Both were published on the same day. The two reports do not provide a complete view but is a step towards this.
The reporters will focus on the events in front of them rather than trying to gain information about another country. Another reporter would be reporting on events in another country.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
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Accountable
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
OpenMind wrote: There is no single 'balanced' report. To get a balance means looking for more reports from the other countries involved.
My OP consists of two separate reports. One concerning Lebanon and one concerning Israel. Both were published on the same day. The two reports do not provide a complete view but is a step towards this.
The reporters will focus on the events in front of them rather than trying to gain information about another country. Another reporter would be reporting on events in another country.Yeh, I know. I'm just frustrated with Issie's post. It seems as though everything was roses and coffee cake until those mean old Israelis just started bombing everything.
I know you know better, Issie, and that wasn't your intent. It just looked that way.
My OP consists of two separate reports. One concerning Lebanon and one concerning Israel. Both were published on the same day. The two reports do not provide a complete view but is a step towards this.
The reporters will focus on the events in front of them rather than trying to gain information about another country. Another reporter would be reporting on events in another country.Yeh, I know. I'm just frustrated with Issie's post. It seems as though everything was roses and coffee cake until those mean old Israelis just started bombing everything.
I know you know better, Issie, and that wasn't your intent. It just looked that way.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
I know you know better, Issie, and that wasn't your intent. It just looked that way.
Please believe me, I just posted the links for people to read what I AM reading here in the UK.
I joined this forum to make friends, not enemies....to be able to laugh, cry, rant and any other emotion.
I`ve had my rant with one of the members who made my blood boil, and the only credit I will give him, is that he made me so angry, I joined the garden.
Some of you will have read that I have just retired, and I was saddened to read about anastrophe`s father.
60 years is a long time to live with the problems in the Middle East, I make no excuse for my rants, but they are born out of frustration, desperation and despair and they are not personal....
I`ve seen people eaten away with the cancer of hate, and my family have their own demons from the second world war....particularly my father, who lost his only brother and his mentor in some stinking trench....and he never forgave the Germans.
So, now that is out of the way....I`m off to make a nice cup of English tea...anybody want a cup.?
Love
Issie xxx
Please believe me, I just posted the links for people to read what I AM reading here in the UK.
I joined this forum to make friends, not enemies....to be able to laugh, cry, rant and any other emotion.
I`ve had my rant with one of the members who made my blood boil, and the only credit I will give him, is that he made me so angry, I joined the garden.
Some of you will have read that I have just retired, and I was saddened to read about anastrophe`s father.
60 years is a long time to live with the problems in the Middle East, I make no excuse for my rants, but they are born out of frustration, desperation and despair and they are not personal....
I`ve seen people eaten away with the cancer of hate, and my family have their own demons from the second world war....particularly my father, who lost his only brother and his mentor in some stinking trench....and he never forgave the Germans.
So, now that is out of the way....I`m off to make a nice cup of English tea...anybody want a cup.?
Love
Issie xxx
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Accountable
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: I`ve had my rant with one of the members who made my blood boil, and the only credit I will give him, is that he made me so angry, I joined the garden.Did you list him as your referral? :wah:
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: So, now that is out of the way....I`m off to make a nice cup of English tea...anybody want a cup.?
Love
Issie xxx
Would love one, Issie. No sugar, just a dash of milk, please. Spoon must stand up by itself.
:-4
Love
Issie xxx
Would love one, Issie. No sugar, just a dash of milk, please. Spoon must stand up by itself.
:-4500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Nomad wrote: And they say blame Israel
So there ya go back to square1
Sounds oddly familiarNom', it doesn't have to do with what one side or the other says but rather with:
a. The history of the area and...
b. The political and cultural facts pertaining to the various factions involved.
If I say two and two are four and Idiot, excuse me, Issie, insists that two and two are five, that's not a 'back to square one' situation. You can look at your own fingers and count for yourself.
a. I cannot give more than a tightly-encapsulated modern history of the middle east in this post or on this thread. I suggest a reliable, entirely neutral source such as the Encyclopedia Britannica. I am admittedly not neutral, I support Israel strongly, but I believe the following basic facts are reasonably accurate:
There were various proposals for an equitable division of Palestine and Trans-Jordan over a long period, all of which failed. Finally a splendid plan was worked out by the UN, much better than anything preceding it, and the nations of Israel and Jordan were born. The remaining territory was slated to become a new Arab-Palestinain state. All of that land was immediately claimed by Jordan, a claim that was only recently abandoned, and which involved Israel only indirectly. Palestinian Arabs remaining in Israel were left alone as long as they remained loyal to Israel. If they were disloyal they were expelled to one of the surrounding Arab countries. When those countries continued to attack Israel, the locations used for the attacks were seized and occupied by Israel. All the hardships about which the Palestinians moan and groan are of their own creation. They all stem from their cowardly acts of terrorism against Israel. Egypt, and more recently Jordan, have done the right thing and made peace with Israel. Lebanon and, no doubt, many Palestinians would like to do the same, but this is being prevented by evil, murderous thugs such as those Israel is now pursuing.
b. Israel wants ONLY to live in peace, freedom and security. The Islamic thugs want ONLY to destroy first Israel, then, one by one, every other democratic, freedom-loving, non-Islamic society in the world. Anyone attempting to allege any sort of equality or parity here has his/her head embedded so far up his/her ass that any further discussion is probably a complete waste of time.
So there ya go back to square1
Sounds oddly familiarNom', it doesn't have to do with what one side or the other says but rather with:
a. The history of the area and...
b. The political and cultural facts pertaining to the various factions involved.
If I say two and two are four and Idiot, excuse me, Issie, insists that two and two are five, that's not a 'back to square one' situation. You can look at your own fingers and count for yourself.
a. I cannot give more than a tightly-encapsulated modern history of the middle east in this post or on this thread. I suggest a reliable, entirely neutral source such as the Encyclopedia Britannica. I am admittedly not neutral, I support Israel strongly, but I believe the following basic facts are reasonably accurate:
There were various proposals for an equitable division of Palestine and Trans-Jordan over a long period, all of which failed. Finally a splendid plan was worked out by the UN, much better than anything preceding it, and the nations of Israel and Jordan were born. The remaining territory was slated to become a new Arab-Palestinain state. All of that land was immediately claimed by Jordan, a claim that was only recently abandoned, and which involved Israel only indirectly. Palestinian Arabs remaining in Israel were left alone as long as they remained loyal to Israel. If they were disloyal they were expelled to one of the surrounding Arab countries. When those countries continued to attack Israel, the locations used for the attacks were seized and occupied by Israel. All the hardships about which the Palestinians moan and groan are of their own creation. They all stem from their cowardly acts of terrorism against Israel. Egypt, and more recently Jordan, have done the right thing and made peace with Israel. Lebanon and, no doubt, many Palestinians would like to do the same, but this is being prevented by evil, murderous thugs such as those Israel is now pursuing.
b. Israel wants ONLY to live in peace, freedom and security. The Islamic thugs want ONLY to destroy first Israel, then, one by one, every other democratic, freedom-loving, non-Islamic society in the world. Anyone attempting to allege any sort of equality or parity here has his/her head embedded so far up his/her ass that any further discussion is probably a complete waste of time.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: and Idiot, excuse me, Issie
You must be really proud of yourself for this utterance, Bronwen.:yh_sigh
You must be really proud of yourself for this utterance, Bronwen.:yh_sigh
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Accountable
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
OpenMind wrote: You must be really proud of yourself for this utterance, Bronwen.:yh_sighThanks, OM, for saving me the trouble.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Accountable wrote: Thanks, OM, for saving me the trouble.
You are welcome, ACC.
You are welcome, ACC.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Golem, may I be permitted to ask you a simple question?:
When does it become permissable to kill innocent people?
When does it become permissable to kill innocent people?
Behaviour breeds behaviour - treat people how you would like to be treated yourself
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anastrophe
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
now that bronwen has been thoroughly chastised and shamed for his modest epithet, perhaps the remaining content of his post might be worth discussion.
i was thinking about jordan just the other day in this regard. they've chosen peace with israel. rockets aren't being randomly lobbed into israel from jordan. and israel isn't fighting a war with them.
if israel is the 'real aggressor' here as some of the apologists for the terrorists allege, then explain jordan. or egypt.
peace. this is what we all desire, yes? then again: explain why there is peace between egypt and israel, and jordan and israel, if israel is the aggressor.
i was thinking about jordan just the other day in this regard. they've chosen peace with israel. rockets aren't being randomly lobbed into israel from jordan. and israel isn't fighting a war with them.
if israel is the 'real aggressor' here as some of the apologists for the terrorists allege, then explain jordan. or egypt.
peace. this is what we all desire, yes? then again: explain why there is peace between egypt and israel, and jordan and israel, if israel is the aggressor.
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Accountable
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anastrophe
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
female, male, ultimately irrelevant online. i could be a very clever marmoset for all anyone knows. and considering the quality of some of the stuff i post....damn, i've blown my cover.
there's been much condemnation of israel for responding to aggression. contrarily, even if we say for the sake of argument that israel *is* the aggressor - then where is the condemnation of hezbollah for *their* responding to aggression?
we are presented with these lugubrious calls for peace, for israel to lay down their arms - where, oh where, are the counterbalancing calls?
i'd be delighted to see a ceasefire. absolutely delighted. lebanon has been punctured like a sieve on numerous occasions over the decades.
or is the expectation that israel is to lay down its arms on faith, that if they do so, others will also?
i hope we're not that naive.
there's been much condemnation of israel for responding to aggression. contrarily, even if we say for the sake of argument that israel *is* the aggressor - then where is the condemnation of hezbollah for *their* responding to aggression?
we are presented with these lugubrious calls for peace, for israel to lay down their arms - where, oh where, are the counterbalancing calls?
i'd be delighted to see a ceasefire. absolutely delighted. lebanon has been punctured like a sieve on numerous occasions over the decades.
or is the expectation that israel is to lay down its arms on faith, that if they do so, others will also?
i hope we're not that naive.
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Anastrophe, as I have read it so far, Israel are not being condemned for retaliating so much as for over-reacting and killing civilians.
As I have learnt more about Hez B'Allah, however, I am realising that short of the methods used by Nazis to route the Jews, the Israelis are doing what they have to to protect themselves. Unfortunately, because of the way Hez B'Allah operate, this has meant civillian casualties. Some of these are justified and some of these are not.
Of course, there are political and economical issues involved. The world is not going to let Israel finish the job. For some reason, in the name of political correctness, it doesn't suit the UN for Israel to finish the job and rid the world of this terrorist organisation. I shan't speculate why the UN thinks it better to maintain an enemy presence. The Hez B'Hallah is ultimately an enemy to the entire world.
As I have learnt more about Hez B'Allah, however, I am realising that short of the methods used by Nazis to route the Jews, the Israelis are doing what they have to to protect themselves. Unfortunately, because of the way Hez B'Allah operate, this has meant civillian casualties. Some of these are justified and some of these are not.
Of course, there are political and economical issues involved. The world is not going to let Israel finish the job. For some reason, in the name of political correctness, it doesn't suit the UN for Israel to finish the job and rid the world of this terrorist organisation. I shan't speculate why the UN thinks it better to maintain an enemy presence. The Hez B'Hallah is ultimately an enemy to the entire world.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: i'd be delighted to see a ceasefire. absolutely delighted. lebanon has been punctured like a sieve on numerous occasions over the decades.
or is the expectation that israel is to lay down its arms on faith, that if they do so, others will also?
i hope we're not that naive.An, that is the problem exactly. To the terrorists, a 'ceasefire' means that Israeli ceases firing while they continue to lob missiles into Israel, perhaps with a bit less frequency.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been a single 'ceasefire' in the history of the region that the various terrorist factions haven't broken, often from day one.woppy71 wrote: Golem, may I be permitted to ask you a simple question?:
When does it become permissable to kill innocent people?Wop, golem is busy fighting the terrorists, which makes me feel guilty as I never served in the military, never had to 'lay my ass on the line' as he is doing as I type this, and obviously I cannot answer for him, but let me give my own answer.
War is hell. War is horrible. Innocent people are always injured and killed in wars. There is a difference, however, between targetting civilians as the Islamic terrorists have always done and Israel's policy of going after those who attack it, which unfortunately often produces collateral damage, including civilian casualties. When Israel kills Arab children while defending their nation, they regard it as a great tragedy. When Islamic terrorists kill Israeli children, they regard it as a great victory. That is the difference.
Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
A couple of days ago a young Lebanese woman was being interviewed along with her young daughter (perhaps 8 or 9 years old). When the daughter was asked, as children so often are, about her aspirations for the future, she said, 'I want to be a doctor for Hezbollah', then added, 'I like it when they kill the Israelis'. One may, of course, argue that the little girl is 'innocent' because of her age, but what about the mother who put such ideas into her head?
Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police), she was in a hospital with her infant daughter, who had been burned, thankfully not too badly, in the crossfire and her older son, who was burned so badly that his face looked like raw hamburger. He was in terrible pain and hallucinating. The woman's husband had been killed. Understandably, she was beside herself in grief. I can't even imagine myself in such a position, and yet, although we will never know, I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?Pinky wrote: Bronwen - go and find your manners!
I previously thought you capable of arguing a point without resorting to this type of thing! Shame on you.Fair enough, Pinkstress. Now how about making a positive contribution to the thread rather than just chiding me personally? Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
or is the expectation that israel is to lay down its arms on faith, that if they do so, others will also?
i hope we're not that naive.An, that is the problem exactly. To the terrorists, a 'ceasefire' means that Israeli ceases firing while they continue to lob missiles into Israel, perhaps with a bit less frequency.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been a single 'ceasefire' in the history of the region that the various terrorist factions haven't broken, often from day one.woppy71 wrote: Golem, may I be permitted to ask you a simple question?:
When does it become permissable to kill innocent people?Wop, golem is busy fighting the terrorists, which makes me feel guilty as I never served in the military, never had to 'lay my ass on the line' as he is doing as I type this, and obviously I cannot answer for him, but let me give my own answer.
War is hell. War is horrible. Innocent people are always injured and killed in wars. There is a difference, however, between targetting civilians as the Islamic terrorists have always done and Israel's policy of going after those who attack it, which unfortunately often produces collateral damage, including civilian casualties. When Israel kills Arab children while defending their nation, they regard it as a great tragedy. When Islamic terrorists kill Israeli children, they regard it as a great victory. That is the difference.
Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
A couple of days ago a young Lebanese woman was being interviewed along with her young daughter (perhaps 8 or 9 years old). When the daughter was asked, as children so often are, about her aspirations for the future, she said, 'I want to be a doctor for Hezbollah', then added, 'I like it when they kill the Israelis'. One may, of course, argue that the little girl is 'innocent' because of her age, but what about the mother who put such ideas into her head?
Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police), she was in a hospital with her infant daughter, who had been burned, thankfully not too badly, in the crossfire and her older son, who was burned so badly that his face looked like raw hamburger. He was in terrible pain and hallucinating. The woman's husband had been killed. Understandably, she was beside herself in grief. I can't even imagine myself in such a position, and yet, although we will never know, I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?Pinky wrote: Bronwen - go and find your manners!
I previously thought you capable of arguing a point without resorting to this type of thing! Shame on you.Fair enough, Pinkstress. Now how about making a positive contribution to the thread rather than just chiding me personally? Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
OpenMind wrote: Anastrophe, as I have read it so far, Israel are not being condemned for retaliating so much as for over-reacting and killing civilians.
As I have learnt more about Hez B'Allah, however, I am realising that short of the methods used by Nazis to route the Jews, the Israelis are doing what they have to to protect themselves. Unfortunately, because of the way Hez B'Allah operate, this has meant civillian casualties. Some of these are justified and some of these are not.
Of course, there are political and economical issues involved. The world is not going to let Israel finish the job. For some reason, in the name of political correctness, it doesn't suit the UN for Israel to finish the job and rid the world of this terrorist organisation. I shan't speculate why the UN thinks it better to maintain an enemy presence. The Hez B'Hallah is ultimately an enemy to the entire world.Thank you. You are 100% correct.
As I have learnt more about Hez B'Allah, however, I am realising that short of the methods used by Nazis to route the Jews, the Israelis are doing what they have to to protect themselves. Unfortunately, because of the way Hez B'Allah operate, this has meant civillian casualties. Some of these are justified and some of these are not.
Of course, there are political and economical issues involved. The world is not going to let Israel finish the job. For some reason, in the name of political correctness, it doesn't suit the UN for Israel to finish the job and rid the world of this terrorist organisation. I shan't speculate why the UN thinks it better to maintain an enemy presence. The Hez B'Hallah is ultimately an enemy to the entire world.Thank you. You are 100% correct.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Pinky wrote: I fully admit that I don't actually know anything about the subject!
However, I do admire your debating skills, so I'm quite happy to leave you to it.Thank you, and thanks for passing on the reminder from 'Miss Manners'.
However, I do admire your debating skills, so I'm quite happy to leave you to it.Thank you, and thanks for passing on the reminder from 'Miss Manners'.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: War is hell. War is horrible. Innocent people are always injured and killed in wars. There is a difference, however, between targetting civilians as the Islamic terrorists have always done and Israel's policy of going after those who attack it, which unfortunately often produces collateral damage, including civilian casualties. When Israel kills Arab children while defending their nation, they regard it as a great tragedy. When Islamic terrorists kill Israeli children, they regard it as a great victory. That is the difference.
Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
I would ask the same question of a Lebonese, my view is pure and simple:
The death of just a single innocent person is totally unacceptable.
At what stage does it become unacceptable to kill innocent people? When 10 innocents die? 100? 10000? a million? What is an acceptable figure?
An example of who I consider innocent: Any person who is a) a child b) Anyone who genuinely does not want anything to do with the situation. I also do not believe that just because someone holds a particular view, they should be held as equally responsible as the terrorists. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are, in my opinion, a basic human right.
Also, remember that tv news coverage can be biased. I'm not basing my opinions and feelings on what I see on tv, I'm basing them on how I feel as a human. It's just plain wrong to kill innocent people, no matter how it occurs.
Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
I would ask the same question of a Lebonese, my view is pure and simple:
The death of just a single innocent person is totally unacceptable.
At what stage does it become unacceptable to kill innocent people? When 10 innocents die? 100? 10000? a million? What is an acceptable figure?
An example of who I consider innocent: Any person who is a) a child b) Anyone who genuinely does not want anything to do with the situation. I also do not believe that just because someone holds a particular view, they should be held as equally responsible as the terrorists. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are, in my opinion, a basic human right.
Also, remember that tv news coverage can be biased. I'm not basing my opinions and feelings on what I see on tv, I'm basing them on how I feel as a human. It's just plain wrong to kill innocent people, no matter how it occurs.
Behaviour breeds behaviour - treat people how you would like to be treated yourself
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Accountable
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
woppy71 wrote: I would ask the same question of a Lebonese, my view is pure and simple:
The death of just a single innocent person is totally unacceptable.
At what stage does it become unacceptable to kill innocent people? When 10 innocents die? 100? 10000? a million? What is an acceptable figure?
An example of who I consider innocent: Any person who is a) a child b) Anyone who genuinely does not want anything to do with the situation. I also do not believe that just because someone holds a particular view, they should be held as equally responsible as the terrorists. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are, in my opinion, a basic human right.
Also, remember that tv news coverage can be biased. I'm not basing my opinions and feelings on what I see on tv, I'm basing them on how I feel as a human. It's just plain wrong to kill innocent people, no matter how it occurs.
Surely you're not saying that because Hez B'Allah are lobbing missiles from heavily populated areas, that Israel should do nothing, so as to avoid killing innocent people?!?
The death of just a single innocent person is totally unacceptable.
At what stage does it become unacceptable to kill innocent people? When 10 innocents die? 100? 10000? a million? What is an acceptable figure?
An example of who I consider innocent: Any person who is a) a child b) Anyone who genuinely does not want anything to do with the situation. I also do not believe that just because someone holds a particular view, they should be held as equally responsible as the terrorists. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are, in my opinion, a basic human right.
Also, remember that tv news coverage can be biased. I'm not basing my opinions and feelings on what I see on tv, I'm basing them on how I feel as a human. It's just plain wrong to kill innocent people, no matter how it occurs.
Surely you're not saying that because Hez B'Allah are lobbing missiles from heavily populated areas, that Israel should do nothing, so as to avoid killing innocent people?!?
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Accountable wrote: Surely you're not saying that because Hez B'Allah are lobbing missiles from heavily populated areas, that Israel should do nothing, so as to avoid killing innocent people?!?
No, but perhaps a more measured response would be in order? Perhaps the request of help from others might be a good idea.
It just makes me very sad that innocent people have to die.
No, but perhaps a more measured response would be in order? Perhaps the request of help from others might be a good idea.
It just makes me very sad that innocent people have to die.
Behaviour breeds behaviour - treat people how you would like to be treated yourself
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Accountable wrote: Surely you're not saying that because Hez B'Allah are lobbing missiles from heavily populated areas, that Israel should do nothing, so as to avoid killing innocent people?!?
...and allowing Hez B'Allah to kill innocent people at will and at random.
I agree with you in principle, Woppy. The death of innocents is abhorrent. But nothing in this life is simple. I would like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony as well.
I do believe that Israel is trying to aim their fire at known Hez B'Allah sites.
Add to it all the effect of the media. They will turn anything dramatic to grab our attention.
...and allowing Hez B'Allah to kill innocent people at will and at random.
I agree with you in principle, Woppy. The death of innocents is abhorrent. But nothing in this life is simple. I would like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony as well.
I do believe that Israel is trying to aim their fire at known Hez B'Allah sites.
Add to it all the effect of the media. They will turn anything dramatic to grab our attention.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
woppy71 wrote: Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.Ah, but the Titanic was real. The ark was a fable. Nearly anything can be accomplished in a fable, even a war in which no one is hurt.
As nice as that would be, the real world doesn't work that way.
By the way, I see on your posts a photo of a beautiful young couple. Lordy, how I wish I were that age again! I don't know which of you is the Wopster (or Wopstress), but here's another question for you: Would either of you like to live under Shariya law, where there is no freedom and women are treated like piles of sh*t? That is what Hezbollah and the other militant Islamic groups want for the entire world. The democratic nations of the world can submit to that agenda, or they can fight back. Which will it be? Hmmm?
As nice as that would be, the real world doesn't work that way.
By the way, I see on your posts a photo of a beautiful young couple. Lordy, how I wish I were that age again! I don't know which of you is the Wopster (or Wopstress), but here's another question for you: Would either of you like to live under Shariya law, where there is no freedom and women are treated like piles of sh*t? That is what Hezbollah and the other militant Islamic groups want for the entire world. The democratic nations of the world can submit to that agenda, or they can fight back. Which will it be? Hmmm?
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: Would ... you like to live under Shariya law, where there is no freedom and women are treated like piles of sh*t?
A very relevant question for everyone. These people have already shown their willingness to die for their cause taking as many people as possible with them. Albeit, I have yet to see their leaders set an example (not that I particularly want them too, seeing as how much carnage is caused by their suicide bombers).
A very relevant question for everyone. These people have already shown their willingness to die for their cause taking as many people as possible with them. Albeit, I have yet to see their leaders set an example (not that I particularly want them too, seeing as how much carnage is caused by their suicide bombers).
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Diuretic wrote: Personally I'd pick up a gun and fight any regime which tried to force a theocracy on me, regardless of the religion. Politics and religion should always be separated, always.
I always thought that religion was just another, more critical, branch of politics.
I always thought that religion was just another, more critical, branch of politics.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: Ah, but the Titanic was real. The ark was a fable. Nearly anything can be accomplished in a fable, even a war in which no one is hurt.
As nice as that would be, the real world doesn't work that way.
By the way, I see on your posts a photo of a beautiful young couple. Lordy, how I wish I were that age again! I don't know which of you is the Wopster (or Wopstress), but here's another question for you: Would either of you like to live under Shariya law, where there is no freedom and women are treated like piles of sh*t? That is what Hezbollah and the other militant Islamic groups want for the entire world. The democratic nations of the world can submit to that agenda, or they can fight back. Which will it be? Hmmm?
:)
The quote is mean't to be motivational, it's just something that seemed to strike a chord with me.
The picture? I'm the ugly one on the left, lol:wah: I wish I still felt as young as I (think) I look in that photo!!
As to your question: I believe that every human being is entitled to the same human rights: Freedom from fear, freedom from violence, freedom of speech and numerous others. I find the oppression of women in some cultures to be a terrible thing. I'm not pretending that every other culture should be like my own, but I would like to see the rights of individuals respected in all cultures.
I don't think imposing the will of one person onto another by using violence is right. I hope that one day, the human race will wake up and sort things things out amiably. A simplistic view, yes, but then again, i'm a simple person
By the way, your debating skills are to be commended, you are very skillful in putting your views across. Debating skill is probably not one of my better points:)
As nice as that would be, the real world doesn't work that way.
By the way, I see on your posts a photo of a beautiful young couple. Lordy, how I wish I were that age again! I don't know which of you is the Wopster (or Wopstress), but here's another question for you: Would either of you like to live under Shariya law, where there is no freedom and women are treated like piles of sh*t? That is what Hezbollah and the other militant Islamic groups want for the entire world. The democratic nations of the world can submit to that agenda, or they can fight back. Which will it be? Hmmm?
:)
The quote is mean't to be motivational, it's just something that seemed to strike a chord with me.
The picture? I'm the ugly one on the left, lol:wah: I wish I still felt as young as I (think) I look in that photo!!
As to your question: I believe that every human being is entitled to the same human rights: Freedom from fear, freedom from violence, freedom of speech and numerous others. I find the oppression of women in some cultures to be a terrible thing. I'm not pretending that every other culture should be like my own, but I would like to see the rights of individuals respected in all cultures.
I don't think imposing the will of one person onto another by using violence is right. I hope that one day, the human race will wake up and sort things things out amiably. A simplistic view, yes, but then again, i'm a simple person
By the way, your debating skills are to be commended, you are very skillful in putting your views across. Debating skill is probably not one of my better points:)
Behaviour breeds behaviour - treat people how you would like to be treated yourself
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
You will never know, because you are watching the TV and basing an opinion on what you have been fed from the media.... every lebanese civilian interviewed, but what about the ones who were not interviewed, were they not suitable to fit into the agenda of the programme.?
Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police.
I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
First of all, can I ask what had wearing the Islamic dress got to do within the context of your reply..?
Were they innocent? ...there is a possiblity that they just could be, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.....has that ever crossed your mind.?
Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?
Could be because the Lebanese army is ill equiped both in man power and arsenal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205930.stm
Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
That`s a tricky one because Hezbollah are a state within a state, with 14 members in the National assembly, Hezbollah have provided hospitals, medicines and education.....so yes people may support them, but not necessarily for war.
Many people supported the labour party in the UK, and were quite happy until we went to war in Iraq.
This makes interesting reading, there are 3 pages, but well worth the trawl through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 84,00.html
You will never know, because you are watching the TV and basing an opinion on what you have been fed from the media.... every lebanese civilian interviewed, but what about the ones who were not interviewed, were they not suitable to fit into the agenda of the programme.?
Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police.
I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
First of all, can I ask what had wearing the Islamic dress got to do within the context of your reply..?
Were they innocent? ...there is a possiblity that they just could be, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.....has that ever crossed your mind.?
Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?
Could be because the Lebanese army is ill equiped both in man power and arsenal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205930.stm
Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
That`s a tricky one because Hezbollah are a state within a state, with 14 members in the National assembly, Hezbollah have provided hospitals, medicines and education.....so yes people may support them, but not necessarily for war.
Many people supported the labour party in the UK, and were quite happy until we went to war in Iraq.
This makes interesting reading, there are 3 pages, but well worth the trawl through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 84,00.html
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: 1. Now, here is a question for you. What do you regard as an 'innocent person'? I have been watching TV all I can for the past two weeks to keep up with the latest developments. Every Lebanese civilian I have seen interviewed has claimed to support the terrorists wholeheartedly. Are these civilians 'innocent'? Can one cast his/her lot with the terrorists and not reasonaby expect that they might share the terrorists' fate?
You will never know, because you are watching the TV and basing an opinion on what you have been fed from the media.... every lebanese civilian interviewed, but what about the ones who were not interviewed, were they not suitable to fit into the agenda of the programme.?
2. Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police.
I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
a. First of all, can I ask what had wearing the Islamic dress got to do within the context of your reply..?
b. Were they innocent? ...there is a possiblity that they just could be, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.....has that ever crossed your mind.?
3. Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?
Could be because the Lebanese army is ill equiped both in man power and arsenal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205930.stm
4. Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
a. That`s a tricky one because Hezbollah are a state within a state, with 14 members in the National assembly, Hezbollah have provided hospitals, medicines and education.....
b. so yes people may support them, but not necessarily for war.
5. Many people supported the labour party in the UK, and were quite happy until we went to war in Iraq.
6. This makes interesting reading, there are 3 pages, but well worth the trawl through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 4,00.html1. Well, you are correct up to a point. I stated quite clearly that I had been watching as much TV as possible, German channels as well as the BBC World Service and CNN. I see no other 'agenda' than to report the news as accurately as possible. If you are alleging some sort of conspiracy, you should be posting on the Conspiracy forum.
The ones that were not interviewed, which is to say, the ones who oppose Hezbollah, had probably (a) fled to a safer part of the country or left it completely and/or (b) were probably afraid to state their views for fear of reprisal, now or later, by the terrorists. In any case, I have no doubt such people exist, and yes, I would regard them as innocent civilians.
2a. It has to do with the fact that she is required to do so by her religion, which allows no freedom in such matters. That is the condition that Islamic terrorists wish to impose on the entire world. Their slogan: 'Our way or we kill you.'
2b. Yes, I admitted that possibility. There's also a possibility, to paraphrase Canadian comedian Mike Myers, that monkeys might fly outa my butt. My point was that people who support terrorists must do so at their own peril. This unfortunate family very likely fell into that category, and if they did not, many other familes who have suffered such injuries do, and thus have no complaint.
3. Indeed. That is all the more reason that they should form an alliance with Israel to rid their country of this scourge.
4a. It may be tricky to you. A terrorist who builds a hospital is still a terrorist. Are non-terrorists, people who believe in peace, freedom, and democracy, incapable of building hospitals?
4b. All I hear from them on TV is 'Death to Israel, death to the USA'. That sounds like war to me.
5. I have no knowledge of British politics, I'll take your word for it.
6. I read it and it's every bit as interesting as you say.
Issie, may I ask your ethnic background? Mine is half German, half Welsh/English/Scottish. (And in case you're wondering, I'm not Jewish.) Are you just a garden-variety anti-Semite or is there an ethnic agenda here?
And finally, how about answering the question I posed previously: Would you want to live under Shariya law?
You will never know, because you are watching the TV and basing an opinion on what you have been fed from the media.... every lebanese civilian interviewed, but what about the ones who were not interviewed, were they not suitable to fit into the agenda of the programme.?
2. Yesterday they showed a middle-aged Lebanese woman (wrapped up in the 100+ degree heat in her heavy Islamic covering, without which she would probably be hunted down and killed, not by the Israelis but by the Islamic religious police.
I have very little doubt that this family were also Hezbollah supporters. Were they 'innocent'?
a. First of all, can I ask what had wearing the Islamic dress got to do within the context of your reply..?
b. Were they innocent? ...there is a possiblity that they just could be, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.....has that ever crossed your mind.?
3. Why are the Lebanese supporting Hezbollah rather than helping Israel rid their country of this menace?
Could be because the Lebanese army is ill equiped both in man power and arsenal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205930.stm
4. Do YOU think Hezbollah supporters are 'innocent'?
a. That`s a tricky one because Hezbollah are a state within a state, with 14 members in the National assembly, Hezbollah have provided hospitals, medicines and education.....
b. so yes people may support them, but not necessarily for war.
5. Many people supported the labour party in the UK, and were quite happy until we went to war in Iraq.
6. This makes interesting reading, there are 3 pages, but well worth the trawl through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 4,00.html1. Well, you are correct up to a point. I stated quite clearly that I had been watching as much TV as possible, German channels as well as the BBC World Service and CNN. I see no other 'agenda' than to report the news as accurately as possible. If you are alleging some sort of conspiracy, you should be posting on the Conspiracy forum.
The ones that were not interviewed, which is to say, the ones who oppose Hezbollah, had probably (a) fled to a safer part of the country or left it completely and/or (b) were probably afraid to state their views for fear of reprisal, now or later, by the terrorists. In any case, I have no doubt such people exist, and yes, I would regard them as innocent civilians.
2a. It has to do with the fact that she is required to do so by her religion, which allows no freedom in such matters. That is the condition that Islamic terrorists wish to impose on the entire world. Their slogan: 'Our way or we kill you.'
2b. Yes, I admitted that possibility. There's also a possibility, to paraphrase Canadian comedian Mike Myers, that monkeys might fly outa my butt. My point was that people who support terrorists must do so at their own peril. This unfortunate family very likely fell into that category, and if they did not, many other familes who have suffered such injuries do, and thus have no complaint.
3. Indeed. That is all the more reason that they should form an alliance with Israel to rid their country of this scourge.
4a. It may be tricky to you. A terrorist who builds a hospital is still a terrorist. Are non-terrorists, people who believe in peace, freedom, and democracy, incapable of building hospitals?
4b. All I hear from them on TV is 'Death to Israel, death to the USA'. That sounds like war to me.
5. I have no knowledge of British politics, I'll take your word for it.
6. I read it and it's every bit as interesting as you say.
Issie, may I ask your ethnic background? Mine is half German, half Welsh/English/Scottish. (And in case you're wondering, I'm not Jewish.) Are you just a garden-variety anti-Semite or is there an ethnic agenda here?
And finally, how about answering the question I posed previously: Would you want to live under Shariya law?
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen.
The questions that I put to you were simply out of curiosity, not a challenge.... one reason was because I (in good faith) posted a load of links from the BBC, this was to show what I am being fed with here in the UK.....those links were immediately classed by other members as being "unbalanced"....when after being pointed out by the members of this forum and the articles re-read, I could see where they were coming from.
Me, I`m neutral in all this, I am British (English) born with no traces of any "foreign" "coloured" blood in my veins, in fact I am as white as snow due to the lack of sunshine....and I am a Christian, although not a practising Christian these days....but what I definately am, is tired of it all.
I`ll not pretend to know too much about the Middle East and what I do know, again has been fed to me, by the media here in the UK, and my history/geography teacher at school.
Without referring to this particular time, I can see (as a neutral) mistakes that have been made in the past by both sides ( in my opinion )
I was curious as to why you needed mentioned the hijab, and NO there is NO WAY on gods earth that I would like to live like this under the Shariya law.
I just found it difficult to understand why it needed to be included in the context amongst the genuine sorrow that you portrayed for the woman and her children.
What I`m trying to say, and not making a very good job of it is....
We have Jews walking around in clothes that are alien to my culture, a man in a long black coat, supporting a bushy beard and wearing a strange hat, in 80 degrees sunshine, they stand out just as much in my country as the Islamic dress and the sari...that`s all, nothing more!
I personally see them for what they are, clothes...and underneath those robes is a person....you may see them as a terrorist under the garments.
I`m even more confused because some time ago, I went to the local library and spent some time reading a translated version of the Quran by Yusof Ali, in an attempt to see where the Islamic lunatics were coming from.
In the Quran, it states on many occasion in Mohammeds message from God, that respect should be shown to the people of the book (Torah)
Abraham, Moses and Jesus are again mentioned in a very respected terminology.
When Israel kills Arab children while defending their nation, they regard it as a great tragedy. When Islamic terrorists kill Israeli children, they regard it as a great victory. That is the difference.
I`ll agree with that 100% and this may explain why reading Golems posts made me soooo angry and unleashed the venom that I had simmering inside me.
Yes, by all means be passionate about your religion, your country and your cause, but to actually write down that you ENJOY wiping someone off the face of the earth, just turns my stomach over.....in fact, that makes Golem no better than the people he wishes to slaughter.
Hope this has sorted out a few unanswered questions, no I`m not anti-semetic, anti- islam or anti anything...I`ve just got a curious mind and as the saying goes, curiosity killed the cat....therefore I will keep out of all this and keep my thoughts to myself.
Love
Issie x
The questions that I put to you were simply out of curiosity, not a challenge.... one reason was because I (in good faith) posted a load of links from the BBC, this was to show what I am being fed with here in the UK.....those links were immediately classed by other members as being "unbalanced"....when after being pointed out by the members of this forum and the articles re-read, I could see where they were coming from.
Me, I`m neutral in all this, I am British (English) born with no traces of any "foreign" "coloured" blood in my veins, in fact I am as white as snow due to the lack of sunshine....and I am a Christian, although not a practising Christian these days....but what I definately am, is tired of it all.
I`ll not pretend to know too much about the Middle East and what I do know, again has been fed to me, by the media here in the UK, and my history/geography teacher at school.
Without referring to this particular time, I can see (as a neutral) mistakes that have been made in the past by both sides ( in my opinion )
I was curious as to why you needed mentioned the hijab, and NO there is NO WAY on gods earth that I would like to live like this under the Shariya law.
I just found it difficult to understand why it needed to be included in the context amongst the genuine sorrow that you portrayed for the woman and her children.
What I`m trying to say, and not making a very good job of it is....
We have Jews walking around in clothes that are alien to my culture, a man in a long black coat, supporting a bushy beard and wearing a strange hat, in 80 degrees sunshine, they stand out just as much in my country as the Islamic dress and the sari...that`s all, nothing more!
I personally see them for what they are, clothes...and underneath those robes is a person....you may see them as a terrorist under the garments.
I`m even more confused because some time ago, I went to the local library and spent some time reading a translated version of the Quran by Yusof Ali, in an attempt to see where the Islamic lunatics were coming from.
In the Quran, it states on many occasion in Mohammeds message from God, that respect should be shown to the people of the book (Torah)
Abraham, Moses and Jesus are again mentioned in a very respected terminology.
When Israel kills Arab children while defending their nation, they regard it as a great tragedy. When Islamic terrorists kill Israeli children, they regard it as a great victory. That is the difference.
I`ll agree with that 100% and this may explain why reading Golems posts made me soooo angry and unleashed the venom that I had simmering inside me.
Yes, by all means be passionate about your religion, your country and your cause, but to actually write down that you ENJOY wiping someone off the face of the earth, just turns my stomach over.....in fact, that makes Golem no better than the people he wishes to slaughter.
Hope this has sorted out a few unanswered questions, no I`m not anti-semetic, anti- islam or anti anything...I`ve just got a curious mind and as the saying goes, curiosity killed the cat....therefore I will keep out of all this and keep my thoughts to myself.
Love
Issie x
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: 1. Bronwen. The questions that I put to you were simply out of curiosity, not a challenge....
2. Me, I`m neutral in all this
3. [T]here is NO WAY on gods earth that I would like to live like this under the Shariya law.
4. We have Jews walking around in clothes that are alien to my culture, a man in a long black coat, supporting a bushy beard and wearing a strange hat, in 80 degrees sunshine, they stand out just as much in my country as the Islamic dress and the sari...that`s all, nothing more!1. OK
2. Your previous posts on this thread do not seem neutral, and I have made it clear that I support Israel strongly. Neutrality is not the issue.
3. Then you shouldn't be supporting the terrorists.
4. That's fine, Is, they wish to live as Orthodox Jews. They are not required or forced to do so, in Israel or elsewhere.
Let me BRIEFLY, because it's getting late, address some points you posted earlier:Issie wrote: a. Yeh, let`s blame everyone but Israel.
b. Israel that has stolen land that is not theirs.
c. Israel that refuses to go back to the 1967 borders.
d. Israel that ignores the UN resolutions
e. Israel that is backed by the USA
f. Israel that without the USA would be nothing.
g. This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.
h. This time the USA are quite prepared to sit back and let Israel do the fighting, it saves them having to do it.
i. Israel that wanted peace so much, that when it looked a possibility,Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist..
j. Remember, it takes two countries to start a war.
k. Israel is good at bleating out and playing the victim.a, b & c. Terrorism has consequences. All the land that Israel has taken was taken because it was being used for attacks on Israel. To give it back with no assurance of peace and security would be foolish. Israel has been trying to do so for nearly 40 years. The only land they are less willing to return is along the pre-1967 borders and they have stated that they would consider giving compensatory land elsewhere. You seem to be implying that Israel should ignore the 40 years of terrorism as if it never occurred. It doesn't work that way.
d. The recent 'roadmap' begins with the cessation of terrorism, with the Palestinian authority completely dismantling the terrorist structure. THat is step one, and that has not even begun to occur. Who is ignoring mandates here?
e. You were expecting perhaps that the USA would back the terrorists? The USA backs Israel and backs equally the middle-Eastern countries who have made peace with Israel.
f. Nonsense. See h.
g. ..and Israel is, as I type this, beating the living tar out of them. Within another few days they will have driven them out of Southern Lebanon.
h. When did the USA fight alongside Israel? I must have missed that.
i. He was assassinated by a lone nut. So was JFK. What is your point?
j. You are implying that Israel should not have responded to the recent Hezbollah incursion? Would you feel the same way if Britain were attacked, which, considering the Islamic terrorist influence there, is a real possibility. I can tell you this, though, they're not going to be attacked by Israel.
k. You have to be kidding. That is exactly what the Arabs are doing on TV right now and have always done. 'We attacked Israel and how DARE they fight back! WAHHHH!' No mention of the continued attacks on any part of Israel that the terrorists can reach.
2. Me, I`m neutral in all this
3. [T]here is NO WAY on gods earth that I would like to live like this under the Shariya law.
4. We have Jews walking around in clothes that are alien to my culture, a man in a long black coat, supporting a bushy beard and wearing a strange hat, in 80 degrees sunshine, they stand out just as much in my country as the Islamic dress and the sari...that`s all, nothing more!1. OK
2. Your previous posts on this thread do not seem neutral, and I have made it clear that I support Israel strongly. Neutrality is not the issue.
3. Then you shouldn't be supporting the terrorists.
4. That's fine, Is, they wish to live as Orthodox Jews. They are not required or forced to do so, in Israel or elsewhere.
Let me BRIEFLY, because it's getting late, address some points you posted earlier:Issie wrote: a. Yeh, let`s blame everyone but Israel.
b. Israel that has stolen land that is not theirs.
c. Israel that refuses to go back to the 1967 borders.
d. Israel that ignores the UN resolutions
e. Israel that is backed by the USA
f. Israel that without the USA would be nothing.
g. This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.
h. This time the USA are quite prepared to sit back and let Israel do the fighting, it saves them having to do it.
i. Israel that wanted peace so much, that when it looked a possibility,Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist..
j. Remember, it takes two countries to start a war.
k. Israel is good at bleating out and playing the victim.a, b & c. Terrorism has consequences. All the land that Israel has taken was taken because it was being used for attacks on Israel. To give it back with no assurance of peace and security would be foolish. Israel has been trying to do so for nearly 40 years. The only land they are less willing to return is along the pre-1967 borders and they have stated that they would consider giving compensatory land elsewhere. You seem to be implying that Israel should ignore the 40 years of terrorism as if it never occurred. It doesn't work that way.
d. The recent 'roadmap' begins with the cessation of terrorism, with the Palestinian authority completely dismantling the terrorist structure. THat is step one, and that has not even begun to occur. Who is ignoring mandates here?
e. You were expecting perhaps that the USA would back the terrorists? The USA backs Israel and backs equally the middle-Eastern countries who have made peace with Israel.
f. Nonsense. See h.
g. ..and Israel is, as I type this, beating the living tar out of them. Within another few days they will have driven them out of Southern Lebanon.
h. When did the USA fight alongside Israel? I must have missed that.
i. He was assassinated by a lone nut. So was JFK. What is your point?
j. You are implying that Israel should not have responded to the recent Hezbollah incursion? Would you feel the same way if Britain were attacked, which, considering the Islamic terrorist influence there, is a real possibility. I can tell you this, though, they're not going to be attacked by Israel.
k. You have to be kidding. That is exactly what the Arabs are doing on TV right now and have always done. 'We attacked Israel and how DARE they fight back! WAHHHH!' No mention of the continued attacks on any part of Israel that the terrorists can reach.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Interesting thing that I read in the gaurdian yester day was that since the start of Israels offensive, they have had 17 innocent deaths to the Lebaneses 377.
Don't quite know how they came up with that figure, but I do wonder how close it is to the truth.
Don't quite know how they came up with that figure, but I do wonder how close it is to the truth.
Behaviour breeds behaviour - treat people how you would like to be treated yourself
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
3. Then you shouldn't be supporting the terrorists.
I`m not supporting terrorists and while the IRA were bombing the cr@p out of the Brits, and funded by some people in the USA, it didn`t make me want to bomb the cr@p out of Ireland and hate all the Irish and wipe them off the face of the earth.
h. When did the USA fight alongside Israel? I must have missed that.
Israel is backed by America, that is fact not fiction, being backed by them and going to war along side them are two seperate things, so as I never said that, you missed nothing.
You also forget that we in Britain are now targets for the Islamic lunatics, so why on earth would I want to support them? I`m not a Jew or a muslim, but I could now get blown to bits tomorrow....I think I would be classed as collateral damage.
Israel has ignored UN resolutions
Israel has had its own extremists in the past
America has given Israel the green light to sort the Hezbollah out.
Neutrality is not the issue.
Well why ask me if I was anti-semetic.?
You are implying that Israel should not have responded to the recent Hezbollah incursion?
No, stop putting words in my mouth.
You pull up my post, but it was in reply to Golem and his idea of enjoying wiping someone off the face of the earth.
Can you honestly say that Israel has been totally blameless throughout history.?
Why do people throw the anti-semetic card around when someone asks a few questions.?
Again, these are not a challenge, they are just questions.
I`m not supporting terrorists and while the IRA were bombing the cr@p out of the Brits, and funded by some people in the USA, it didn`t make me want to bomb the cr@p out of Ireland and hate all the Irish and wipe them off the face of the earth.
h. When did the USA fight alongside Israel? I must have missed that.
Israel is backed by America, that is fact not fiction, being backed by them and going to war along side them are two seperate things, so as I never said that, you missed nothing.
You also forget that we in Britain are now targets for the Islamic lunatics, so why on earth would I want to support them? I`m not a Jew or a muslim, but I could now get blown to bits tomorrow....I think I would be classed as collateral damage.
Israel has ignored UN resolutions
Israel has had its own extremists in the past
America has given Israel the green light to sort the Hezbollah out.
Neutrality is not the issue.
Well why ask me if I was anti-semetic.?
You are implying that Israel should not have responded to the recent Hezbollah incursion?
No, stop putting words in my mouth.
You pull up my post, but it was in reply to Golem and his idea of enjoying wiping someone off the face of the earth.
Can you honestly say that Israel has been totally blameless throughout history.?
Why do people throw the anti-semetic card around when someone asks a few questions.?
Again, these are not a challenge, they are just questions.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: Can you honestly say that Israel has been totally blameless throughout history.?No one in history has been totally blameless with the possible exception of one man.
This is my busy day and I only have time to post a few lines, but will have more time tomorrow.
I'm not trying to misrepresent your position, only to understand it. Seeing no logic behind it, I consider anti-Semitism as a possible factor.
Interesting that you mentioned the Irish situation. If you are concerned with countries occupying land that is not theirs, how about starting with the six counties? Hmmm? You get Britain to return them, I'll talk to the Israelis about the West Bank. Sounds like a deal to me.
More tomorrow.
This is my busy day and I only have time to post a few lines, but will have more time tomorrow.
I'm not trying to misrepresent your position, only to understand it. Seeing no logic behind it, I consider anti-Semitism as a possible factor.
Interesting that you mentioned the Irish situation. If you are concerned with countries occupying land that is not theirs, how about starting with the six counties? Hmmm? You get Britain to return them, I'll talk to the Israelis about the West Bank. Sounds like a deal to me.
More tomorrow.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
well whatever, because whether I want to support Israel or not, I now have no choice, and we in the uK have been dragged into the latest conflict, and no doubt the British public will suffer the consequences.
But, at least we all know that the USA is backing Israel.
I feel this is going nowhere, without being accused of having anti-semitic views, there are people who exist that just want to try and understand, without your side of the story being rammed down their throats.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 45,00.html
But, at least we all know that the USA is backing Israel.
I feel this is going nowhere, without being accused of having anti-semitic views, there are people who exist that just want to try and understand, without your side of the story being rammed down their throats.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 45,00.html
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Israel has taken out a UN post. I think the lads might be a bit jumpy. The UN officials (4), who are now dead, were trying to get them to stop firing at them.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
woppy71 wrote: By the way, your debating skills are to be commended, you are very skillful in putting your views across. Thank you for the compliment, but really, supporting the Israeli position is not difficult when one understands the history of the area. Maybe I'm just older than everybody else here. Here is a small country, the only true democracy in the Middle East, wishing only to live in peace, freedom, and security, and since the day of its birth, surrounded by murderous Islamic jackals who have vowed to destroy it by any means possible. Try to imagine your own country in a similar situation. Would you fight back or capitulate to the terrorism? woppy71 wrote: Interesting thing that I read in the gaurdian yester day was that since the start of Israels offensive, they have had 17 innocent deaths to the Lebaneses 377.At the time it was printed, the NUMBERS were probably pretty accurate. Whether those killed were INNOCENT is something else. Check this out:
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... post354457
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... post354457
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Issie wrote: 1. But, at least we all know that the USA is backing Israel.
2. I feel this is going nowhere
3. [W]ithout being accused of having anti-semitic views, there are people who exist that just want to try and understand, without your side of the story being rammed down their throats.1. You seem 'hung up' on that point, and I addressed it before. Why should that be surprising? Are you suggesting that they should support the terrorists?
2. That's because you continue to make nebulous statements that you don't seem willing or able to support. If I suggested that you were supporting the terrorists you would probably deny it. Fair enough. What, then, IS your position? Be specific.
3. I agree with you wholeheartedly, and that's why I've tried to state my position in support of Israel clearly and straightforwardly. I would like you or anyone else who takes the opposite position to explain their rationale. Why should the USA, or any democratic country, oppose Israel and support the terrorists? Seems like a reasonable question to me.Accountable wrote: It's WWIII.Well, that's possible. No question it's a serious situation, for the Middle East and for the world. If you're right, however, it's better to get it out of the way now before Iran has nuclear weapons. That is the real threat, because they are being led by a lunatic who would probably use them the minute they were available. WW3 or no WW3, that must be prevented, and the sooner the better.OpenMind wrote: Israel has taken out a UN post. I think the lads might be a bit jumpy. Yup, I agree with you. Unfortunately, EVERY war is filled with similar 'friendly fire' incidents. My question though, and not intended to impune the unfortunate UN officials in any way, is what are UN PEACEkeepers doing in a WAR zone? I don't understand that, it doesn't seem logical. Maybe someone can explain it to me.
2. I feel this is going nowhere
3. [W]ithout being accused of having anti-semitic views, there are people who exist that just want to try and understand, without your side of the story being rammed down their throats.1. You seem 'hung up' on that point, and I addressed it before. Why should that be surprising? Are you suggesting that they should support the terrorists?
2. That's because you continue to make nebulous statements that you don't seem willing or able to support. If I suggested that you were supporting the terrorists you would probably deny it. Fair enough. What, then, IS your position? Be specific.
3. I agree with you wholeheartedly, and that's why I've tried to state my position in support of Israel clearly and straightforwardly. I would like you or anyone else who takes the opposite position to explain their rationale. Why should the USA, or any democratic country, oppose Israel and support the terrorists? Seems like a reasonable question to me.Accountable wrote: It's WWIII.Well, that's possible. No question it's a serious situation, for the Middle East and for the world. If you're right, however, it's better to get it out of the way now before Iran has nuclear weapons. That is the real threat, because they are being led by a lunatic who would probably use them the minute they were available. WW3 or no WW3, that must be prevented, and the sooner the better.OpenMind wrote: Israel has taken out a UN post. I think the lads might be a bit jumpy. Yup, I agree with you. Unfortunately, EVERY war is filled with similar 'friendly fire' incidents. My question though, and not intended to impune the unfortunate UN officials in any way, is what are UN PEACEkeepers doing in a WAR zone? I don't understand that, it doesn't seem logical. Maybe someone can explain it to me.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: Yup, I agree with you. Unfortunately, EVERY war is filled with similar 'friendly fire' incidents. My question though, and not intended to impune the unfortunate UN officials in any way, is what are UN PEACEkeepers doing in a WAR zone? I don't understand that, it doesn't seem logical. Maybe someone can explain it to me.
It surprised me to find out there was a UN post there. I confess that I just accepted the fact. Good question.
The term 'friendly fire' cracks me up.
It surprised me to find out there was a UN post there. I confess that I just accepted the fact. Good question.
The term 'friendly fire' cracks me up.
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Accountable
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: Yup, I agree with you. Unfortunately, EVERY war is filled with similar 'friendly fire' incidents. :wah: We'll have to really expand the definition of 'friendly' if it's to include the UN toward Israel.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Scrat wrote: 1. There's that word again. Anti-Semitic. Too bad it only applies to GOYEM who are against Israel and what it does. Jewish people who speak out are called "self hating Jews", one tier above the Goyem?
2. I'm not sure but you can toss into this little conversation the fact that Palastinians are a SEMETIC PEOPLE.
3. Just so you know.1. Scrat, you are, in effect, standing naked here. You decry charges of anti-Semitism by using anti-Semitic code words like goyim, which you don't even know how to spell, and whose meaning you obviously misunderstand completely. Very revealing.
2. It's a matter of popular usage, like the term 'Americans', usually used to refer to US citizens, not Chileans, Mexicans or Canadians.
3. It's also a EUPHEMISM. 'Anti-Semite' SOUNDS better than 'Jew hater'. Just so YOU know.
2. I'm not sure but you can toss into this little conversation the fact that Palastinians are a SEMETIC PEOPLE.
3. Just so you know.1. Scrat, you are, in effect, standing naked here. You decry charges of anti-Semitism by using anti-Semitic code words like goyim, which you don't even know how to spell, and whose meaning you obviously misunderstand completely. Very revealing.
2. It's a matter of popular usage, like the term 'Americans', usually used to refer to US citizens, not Chileans, Mexicans or Canadians.
3. It's also a EUPHEMISM. 'Anti-Semite' SOUNDS better than 'Jew hater'. Just so YOU know.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
You seem 'hung up' on that point, and I addressed it before. Why should that be surprising?
Of course I’m “hung up about America supporting Israel, just as I’m hung up with watching poodle Blair stand side by side with puppet Bush and neither have the balls to try and stop this.
Every British citizen that gets blown up, am I not to question why.?
Backbenchers have urged Mr Blair to push for an immediate ceasefire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah.
A senior Scottish Labour MP said the prime minister must stop defying public opinion over the crisis in Lebanon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/gla ... 223444.stm
Are you suggesting that they should support the terrorists?
America support terrorists? Now there’s a double barrel question madam, America armed and trained Osma bin Laden to fight in Afghanistan, he was a freedom fighter, why did he become a terrorist and turn on his paymaster.?
America backed Saddam during the 8 year war between Iraq and Iran and Saddam was gassing thousands of the Iranians during that time, where did he get the poisonous gas from? History indicates that he didn’t have the knowledge, that war was about land and the passage of oil as well¦. then later America goes and flattens Iraq.
Don’t even let the thought that I am anti-American people even cross your mind. American foreign policies and the American people are two separate things¦
The poodle we have in power here in the UK is so far up Bush’s @rse, he cannot see beyond his vision, that it is the people who suffer, that’s people like me and my family and every American family.
Do we hold a Nation responsible for the actions of a few in government? ¦..Not in my book we don’t, but according to you, we should.
If you are as old as me, which you indicate, then history will tell you that today’s terrorist become tomorrows Nationalists.
Such resistance has electrified not just the Arab world but also Lebanese voters of all stripes. A new poll shows that 80 per cent of Lebanese Christians, 80 per cent of Druze and 89 per cent of Sunnis support Hezbollah, even though it remains Shia to its core.
the 1979 revolution inspired him to join Hezbollah at its founding three years later. Its explicit aim: to drive Israel back to its pre-1967 borders.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... _1,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 40,00.html
g. This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.
g. ..and Israel is, as I type this, beating the living tar out of them. Within another few days they will have driven them out of Southern Lebanon.
Really? Don’t look like that to me.
unless you regard blowing roads up, so that the civilians cannot even get out of the war zone
You didn`t have to tell me you have German blood in you, because you sound like one, I like to have a debate, not be dictated too.
Just in case semetic and semitic are spelt both ways, don`t **** down my back either.
Quite frankly, I wish you would both blow yourselves up and then the rest of the world can get on with living because Israel is as much a terrorist as Hezbollah.
Have I been specific enough for you?
Of course I’m “hung up about America supporting Israel, just as I’m hung up with watching poodle Blair stand side by side with puppet Bush and neither have the balls to try and stop this.
Every British citizen that gets blown up, am I not to question why.?
Backbenchers have urged Mr Blair to push for an immediate ceasefire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah.
A senior Scottish Labour MP said the prime minister must stop defying public opinion over the crisis in Lebanon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/gla ... 223444.stm
Are you suggesting that they should support the terrorists?
America support terrorists? Now there’s a double barrel question madam, America armed and trained Osma bin Laden to fight in Afghanistan, he was a freedom fighter, why did he become a terrorist and turn on his paymaster.?
America backed Saddam during the 8 year war between Iraq and Iran and Saddam was gassing thousands of the Iranians during that time, where did he get the poisonous gas from? History indicates that he didn’t have the knowledge, that war was about land and the passage of oil as well¦. then later America goes and flattens Iraq.
Don’t even let the thought that I am anti-American people even cross your mind. American foreign policies and the American people are two separate things¦
The poodle we have in power here in the UK is so far up Bush’s @rse, he cannot see beyond his vision, that it is the people who suffer, that’s people like me and my family and every American family.
Do we hold a Nation responsible for the actions of a few in government? ¦..Not in my book we don’t, but according to you, we should.
If you are as old as me, which you indicate, then history will tell you that today’s terrorist become tomorrows Nationalists.
Such resistance has electrified not just the Arab world but also Lebanese voters of all stripes. A new poll shows that 80 per cent of Lebanese Christians, 80 per cent of Druze and 89 per cent of Sunnis support Hezbollah, even though it remains Shia to its core.
the 1979 revolution inspired him to join Hezbollah at its founding three years later. Its explicit aim: to drive Israel back to its pre-1967 borders.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... _1,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 40,00.html
g. This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.
g. ..and Israel is, as I type this, beating the living tar out of them. Within another few days they will have driven them out of Southern Lebanon.
Really? Don’t look like that to me.
unless you regard blowing roads up, so that the civilians cannot even get out of the war zone You didn`t have to tell me you have German blood in you, because you sound like one, I like to have a debate, not be dictated too.
Just in case semetic and semitic are spelt both ways, don`t **** down my back either.
Quite frankly, I wish you would both blow yourselves up and then the rest of the world can get on with living because Israel is as much a terrorist as Hezbollah.
Have I been specific enough for you?