Bronwen wrote: 1. Well, now you are finally making some sense; however, as I stated earlier, I would be more convinced if I were to witness a big rally or demonstration by the 'good, peace-loving Muslims' carrying signs and banners saying 'STOP ISLAMIC TERROR'. So far I have seen no such thing. I have no doubt , though, that Muslim terrorists in the UK and elsewhere are being infiltrated by informers, and that many attacks have probably been averted thereby. The only permanent solution, though, is the complete destruction of the Islamic terrorist infrastructure.
2. I don't understand your point here. None of these other religions support terrorism. Never having been to Scotland I'm unfamiliar with any religious tensions that might exist there. In any case, if you wish to discuss that further, it belongs on a different forum.
3 & 4. I have been a Catholic all my life and have never encountered anyone I would describe as a 'Catholic extremist', nor could I even imagine what such a person would be like. Some Catholics, like some Protestants and some Jews, are more devout than others. Again, such discussions are on the wrong forum.
5. Who's on the fringe? You may have lost me. Islamic terrorists? They may well be 'on the fringe' but they are committing mass murder all over the world, and, as I keep pointing out, THE REST OF ISLAM IS NOT BEING HEARD TO COMPLAIN. Hello, anybody home in there?
6. I looked at it. It's on a blatantly anti-Semitic website. The factual history of the affair can easily be found elsewhere. See, gmc, one way you can tell the good guys from the bad guys is that the latter are outrageous liars. Hezbollah starts a war by invading Israel and killing and kidnapping Israelis, then they shout, 'Israel started this war!'. Israel pounds the living poo out of Hezbolllah for a month, the Hezbos proclaim, 'We were victorious' as half of their country lies in smoldering ruins. Some people actually believe such crapola, you and a couple of other posters here seem to be in that crowd. Good luck to you.
7. When did I ever say that I supported any form of terrorism? Defending one's self, one's family, and one's country from lunatics who have vowed to enslave them is not terrorism. President Truman ended WWII in TWO DAYS with nuclear weapons when it would have gone on indefinitely otherwise. The Islamic threat must be eliminated by ANY MEAN NECESSARY before they possess such weapons themselves. That's the bottom line, regardless of what Scat and the other defenders of Islamic terrorism claim.
1) destroy the infrastructure yes, not take actions that lead to their increased support as israel did in lebanon.
There are many muslims speaking out against the terrorists but I would suggest news articles showing rabid islamic fundamentalists get more prominence. I would post a few links but I think you wouldn't bother looking on the grounds that they are anti semite.
2) Religious fundamentalists of any sort are dangerous if allowed too much power. Terrorist tactics have been used in the past and no doubt will be again uman nature being what it is. However, the actions of a small minority don't reflect on the majority of the followers of a religon.
3) & 4) God grief I agree with you, wrong forum thread for such a topic. Apart from that you have a talenyt for completely ignoring and dismissing as fiction anything that challenges your world view. Bit like an islamic fundamentalist really, same mind set. I am right everybody else is deluded.
5) religious fundamentalsts of any sort represent the fringes of their particular religious society. Most of the time they are harmless it's only when they gain support or decide god is talking to them that they become dangerous.
6) It seems anything pointing out uncomfortable facts you dismiss as anti semitic-no doubt to stop the pain of thinking for yourself.
The allegation about the liberty was made not by anti semites but high ranking US navy officers calling for the full facts to be disclosed. If you consider their motives to be solely to get at the israelis then fine I'm sure the american sailors involved were happy to be sacrificed for the sake of US foreign policy. If it doesn't concern you that even after all these years it is apparently covered up so be it.
7) For islamic extremists to be powerful enough to be a threat to western democracy is laughable. Terrorists are something you deal with not run in fear from. The biggest threat to democracy is our own leaders not an outside threat.
You might find this of interest. The video is worth watching.
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/
There are actually hundreds of such sites all over the place.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Diuretic wrote: You mean Scrat Bronwen no? No "r'' means you're referring to - er - well I'd rather not say. :oYeah, it's Greek to me too.
To quote Punches Pilot, 'Ho gegrapha gegrapha.'
To quote Punches Pilot, 'Ho gegrapha gegrapha.'
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
gmc wrote: 1a. destroy the infrastructure yes, not take actions that lead to their increased support as israel did in lebanon.
1b. There are many muslims speaking out against the terrorists but I would suggest news articles showing rabid islamic fundamentalists get more prominence. I would post a few links but I think you wouldn't bother looking on the grounds that they are anti semite.
2) Religious fundamentalists of any sort are dangerous if allowed too much power. Terrorist tactics have been used in the past and no doubt will be again uman nature being what it is. However, the actions of a small minority don't reflect on the majority of the followers of a religon.
3) & 4) God grief I agree with you, wrong forum thread for such a topic. Apart from that you have a talenyt for completely ignoring and dismissing as fiction anything that challenges your world view. Bit like an islamic fundamentalist really, same mind set. I am right everybody else is deluded.
5) religious fundamentalsts of any sort represent the fringes of their particular religious society. Most of the time they are harmless it's only when they gain support or decide god is talking to them that they become dangerous.
6a. It seems anything pointing out uncomfortable facts you dismiss as anti semitic-no doubt to stop the pain of thinking for yourself.
6b. The allegation about the liberty was made not by anti semites but high ranking US navy officers calling for the full facts to be disclosed. If you consider their motives to be solely to get at the israelis then fine I'm sure the american sailors involved were happy to be sacrificed for the sake of US foreign policy. If it doesn't concern you that even after all these years it is apparently covered up so be it.
7) For islamic extremists to be powerful enough to be a threat to western democracy is laughable. Terrorists are something you deal with not run in fear from. The biggest threat to democracy is our own leaders not an outside threat.
8. You might find this of interest. The video is worth watching.
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/
9. There are actually hundreds of such sites all over the place.1a. I don't think 'increased support' is the issue, but rather, that the countries being attacked demonstrate that they will respond to such attacks forcefully. If the hordes wish to support what they should see can only be a losing cause, they do so at their own peril.
1b. If I would think that then they probably are.
Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
2, 3, 4 & 5. The only religious extremism that I see threatening the world is Islamic.
6. Facts are supportable. Slander is not. Believing the 'Protocols' to be genuine is downright moronic.
7. The Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
...covers the matter at great depth. It was unquestionably one of the most grevious 'friendly fire' incidents in recent history. The FACT (you keep talking about facts, while at the same time seeming unable to recognize them when they stare you in the face) that both nations consider the matter closed speaks for itself.
8. I didn't watch the video but I visíted the site briefly. Yahya is a self-styled 'guru' interested primarily in selling his own publications. That is not immoral or illegal as far as I know. He is entitled to his opinions, and anyone wishing to buy his books is entitled to do so. He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
9. Perhaps. Why then is opposition within Islam to the terrorists not expressed more openly?
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
1b. There are many muslims speaking out against the terrorists but I would suggest news articles showing rabid islamic fundamentalists get more prominence. I would post a few links but I think you wouldn't bother looking on the grounds that they are anti semite.
2) Religious fundamentalists of any sort are dangerous if allowed too much power. Terrorist tactics have been used in the past and no doubt will be again uman nature being what it is. However, the actions of a small minority don't reflect on the majority of the followers of a religon.
3) & 4) God grief I agree with you, wrong forum thread for such a topic. Apart from that you have a talenyt for completely ignoring and dismissing as fiction anything that challenges your world view. Bit like an islamic fundamentalist really, same mind set. I am right everybody else is deluded.
5) religious fundamentalsts of any sort represent the fringes of their particular religious society. Most of the time they are harmless it's only when they gain support or decide god is talking to them that they become dangerous.
6a. It seems anything pointing out uncomfortable facts you dismiss as anti semitic-no doubt to stop the pain of thinking for yourself.
6b. The allegation about the liberty was made not by anti semites but high ranking US navy officers calling for the full facts to be disclosed. If you consider their motives to be solely to get at the israelis then fine I'm sure the american sailors involved were happy to be sacrificed for the sake of US foreign policy. If it doesn't concern you that even after all these years it is apparently covered up so be it.
7) For islamic extremists to be powerful enough to be a threat to western democracy is laughable. Terrorists are something you deal with not run in fear from. The biggest threat to democracy is our own leaders not an outside threat.
8. You might find this of interest. The video is worth watching.
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/
9. There are actually hundreds of such sites all over the place.1a. I don't think 'increased support' is the issue, but rather, that the countries being attacked demonstrate that they will respond to such attacks forcefully. If the hordes wish to support what they should see can only be a losing cause, they do so at their own peril.
1b. If I would think that then they probably are.
Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
2, 3, 4 & 5. The only religious extremism that I see threatening the world is Islamic.
6. Facts are supportable. Slander is not. Believing the 'Protocols' to be genuine is downright moronic.
7. The Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
...covers the matter at great depth. It was unquestionably one of the most grevious 'friendly fire' incidents in recent history. The FACT (you keep talking about facts, while at the same time seeming unable to recognize them when they stare you in the face) that both nations consider the matter closed speaks for itself.
8. I didn't watch the video but I visíted the site briefly. Yahya is a self-styled 'guru' interested primarily in selling his own publications. That is not immoral or illegal as far as I know. He is entitled to his opinions, and anyone wishing to buy his books is entitled to do so. He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
9. Perhaps. Why then is opposition within Islam to the terrorists not expressed more openly?
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
ArnoldLayne wrote: The quality of gmc's posting is never in doubtThank you for your opinion, and I respectfully disagree.
'I saw this on an anti-Semitic hatesite, therefore it must be true' (my paraphrase) is hardly indicative of a quality post or contribution to a discussion of Israel's ongoing struggle against Islamic terror.
Arn, what is your own 'take' on the question I posed to gmc:Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
'I saw this on an anti-Semitic hatesite, therefore it must be true' (my paraphrase) is hardly indicative of a quality post or contribution to a discussion of Israel's ongoing struggle against Islamic terror.
Arn, what is your own 'take' on the question I posed to gmc:Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: 1a. I don't think 'increased support' is the issue, but rather, that the countries being attacked demonstrate that they will respond to such attacks forcefully. If the hordes wish to support what they should see can only be a losing cause, they do so at their own peril.
1b. If I would think that then they probably are.
Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
2, 3, 4 & 5. The only religious extremism that I see threatening the world is Islamic.
6. Facts are supportable. Slander is not. Believing the 'Protocols' to be genuine is downright moronic.
7. The Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
...covers the matter at great depth. It was unquestionably one of the most grevious 'friendly fire' incidents in recent history. The FACT (you keep talking about facts, while at the same time seeming unable to recognize them when they stare you in the face) that both nations consider the matter closed speaks for itself.
8. I didn't watch the video but I visíted the site briefly. Yahya is a self-styled 'guru' interested primarily in selling his own publications. That is not immoral or illegal as far as I know. He is entitled to his opinions, and anyone wishing to buy his books is entitled to do so. He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
9. Perhaps. Why then is opposition within Islam to the terrorists not expressed more openly?
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
1) What hordes? The chances of muslim armies invading the US or europe are so low as to be completely insignificant.
1) I think therefore I am right. Never use the ferry to visit the UK and drive around. You will probably be convinced everybody is driving on the wrong side of the road and the resulting accident if you choose to drive antwhere is caused by anti american elements in british society out to get you. Essex man is the UK's first line of defence against the foreign tourist from europe. Roundabouts are intended to reduce americans to gibbering wrecks.
2) So you don't see zionism and christian fundamentalism as adding fuels to the fire? You do seem to see this in terms of a holy war.
posted by bronwen
2. Israel is surrrounded by filthy, murderous Islamic jackals who have been trying to destroy it from Day One of its existence, and they do so by the most cowardly means imaginable, hiding behind their own women and children.
3. When Israel is attacked by these scum-sucking bastards, IT FIGHTS BACK! Don't want your bridges bombed? Don't want your cities reduced to rubble? Don't want the helpless women and children you are hiding behind to get hurt? Then DON'T ATTACK ISRAEL and you will never have anything to fear from it.
4. Israel has never inflicted any sort of violence or hardship on its neighbors, be it occupation, military strikes, or otherwise, that was not the result of, or in answer to, Islamic terrorism against Israel originating in the country involved.. It's not a chicken-or-egg situation as the apologists for the jackals attempt to portray it. First comes the terrorism, then the Israeli response. See 3.
posted by bronwen
Well, you have a right to be what you are. I'm a believer and I cannot believe in a God who rewards ter rorists for acts of mass murd er against civilians. I therefore conclude that radical Islam is not only a false religion but a menace to the world. That is why Iran MUST be prevented from acquiring nuclear weapons. The date by which they are required to comply with the UN mandate is, in case you haven't noticed, now less than two weeks away. They have already said that they will not comply. My personal belief is that this is a fine opportunity, one might even say God-given, for the democratic nations of the World to destroy radical Islam utterly, and, while the cost in human suffering will be enormous, I really don't see any alternative but to surrender, which we are NOT going to do. If you wish to UK to do so, you are entitled to your belief, but I predict that you will be badly outnumbered.
I'm not a believer so I really don't want to get dragged in to a war amongst the religious who want to fight over whose idea of god is best.
6) So why then do you dismiss facts when they conflict with your world view.
This is my favourite
posted by bronwen
1. That post is total nonsense. That's why I specified that those interested in the history of the area consult a RELIABLE source. The 55% figure is correct but misleading since the Arabs, in addition to their 45%, got ALL of Trans-Jordan.
Long time since I left school but it seems you believe the arabs/palestinians who you seem to see as synonymous, got a 100% of something. Who got the rest?
Incidentally so there is no doubt I don't believe the protocols of zion are genuine but they are a good tool to stir up racial hatred and were used as such. Just as stories of islamic fundamentaists taking over the planet are being used now to portray complex issues as black and white, good and evil.
7) both sides report exactly the same facts including
from wikipedia
Others claim that the attack was premeditated and deliberate. They note that the Liberty was more than twice as large as the El Quseir, and was clearly designated with Latin rather than Arabic letters and numbers. Proponents include the surviving Liberty crewmen, [1] and some former U.S. government officials, including then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
So I'll ask you again. Do you believe these individuals are motivated by nothing more than anti semitism? Do allegations of a cover up and the acceptance of the slaughter of american servicemen for the sake of diplomacy not concern you?
Or do you just think that no one should be allowed to call an administration to account even all these years later. If you do does it also mean you will never execrcise your right to criticise a govt foreign policy and actions taken on your behalf and condemn those who do as traitors and being in support of terrorism. Just follow your leaders blindly in to whatever mess they create and never say what the ^**& are you playing at?
8) Why not watch the video? It is a sign of intelligence to always ask questions about what you believe and do as a consequence. That is the problem with fundamentalists of any kind. Not only do they never question and carefully avoid anything that challenges their world view they also don't want others doing so either and to keep their followers away from anything that might cause them to question things they are told. Ban the books and let us brainwash our children in peace. A purely religious education is a poorly one.
posted by bronwen
He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
He's a screwball because he wants peace? I take that means you want warfare. If he's a screwball and you are sane I think I'm on his side.
Blessed are the peacemakers. I'm no bible scholar but I'm fairly sure that is in both the bible and the koran.
9) Good question. It is expressed openly in some places. Where it is not I would suggest sheer terror or a culture where any criticism of religon or the govt is not allowed. Arguably the saudis seem to have encouraged wahahism as a means of giving dissidents a non political outlet for dissent rather than allowing a politica process to develop. A frankenstein child of a repressive regime come back to haunt them. But I don't claim to be an expert
posted by bronwen
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
Ah flattery now you little welsh minx you.
posted by arnold layne
The quality of gmc's posting is never in doubt
As is the perspicacity of yours:-4
1b. If I would think that then they probably are.
Why are not Israel and Lebanon working TOGETHER to eliminate the Islamic threat? That is the key question. Israel has repeatedly said that it wishes to live in peace with Lebanon as with its other neighbors, but it cannot do so in the presence of terrorism. If Lebanon had accepted Israel's help in dismantling Hezbollah instead of allowing it to fester in Lebanon's midst, the entire train of recent events would have been different.
2, 3, 4 & 5. The only religious extremism that I see threatening the world is Islamic.
6. Facts are supportable. Slander is not. Believing the 'Protocols' to be genuine is downright moronic.
7. The Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
...covers the matter at great depth. It was unquestionably one of the most grevious 'friendly fire' incidents in recent history. The FACT (you keep talking about facts, while at the same time seeming unable to recognize them when they stare you in the face) that both nations consider the matter closed speaks for itself.
8. I didn't watch the video but I visíted the site briefly. Yahya is a self-styled 'guru' interested primarily in selling his own publications. That is not immoral or illegal as far as I know. He is entitled to his opinions, and anyone wishing to buy his books is entitled to do so. He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
9. Perhaps. Why then is opposition within Islam to the terrorists not expressed more openly?
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
1) What hordes? The chances of muslim armies invading the US or europe are so low as to be completely insignificant.
1) I think therefore I am right. Never use the ferry to visit the UK and drive around. You will probably be convinced everybody is driving on the wrong side of the road and the resulting accident if you choose to drive antwhere is caused by anti american elements in british society out to get you. Essex man is the UK's first line of defence against the foreign tourist from europe. Roundabouts are intended to reduce americans to gibbering wrecks.
2) So you don't see zionism and christian fundamentalism as adding fuels to the fire? You do seem to see this in terms of a holy war.
posted by bronwen
2. Israel is surrrounded by filthy, murderous Islamic jackals who have been trying to destroy it from Day One of its existence, and they do so by the most cowardly means imaginable, hiding behind their own women and children.
3. When Israel is attacked by these scum-sucking bastards, IT FIGHTS BACK! Don't want your bridges bombed? Don't want your cities reduced to rubble? Don't want the helpless women and children you are hiding behind to get hurt? Then DON'T ATTACK ISRAEL and you will never have anything to fear from it.
4. Israel has never inflicted any sort of violence or hardship on its neighbors, be it occupation, military strikes, or otherwise, that was not the result of, or in answer to, Islamic terrorism against Israel originating in the country involved.. It's not a chicken-or-egg situation as the apologists for the jackals attempt to portray it. First comes the terrorism, then the Israeli response. See 3.
posted by bronwen
Well, you have a right to be what you are. I'm a believer and I cannot believe in a God who rewards ter rorists for acts of mass murd er against civilians. I therefore conclude that radical Islam is not only a false religion but a menace to the world. That is why Iran MUST be prevented from acquiring nuclear weapons. The date by which they are required to comply with the UN mandate is, in case you haven't noticed, now less than two weeks away. They have already said that they will not comply. My personal belief is that this is a fine opportunity, one might even say God-given, for the democratic nations of the World to destroy radical Islam utterly, and, while the cost in human suffering will be enormous, I really don't see any alternative but to surrender, which we are NOT going to do. If you wish to UK to do so, you are entitled to your belief, but I predict that you will be badly outnumbered.
I'm not a believer so I really don't want to get dragged in to a war amongst the religious who want to fight over whose idea of god is best.
6) So why then do you dismiss facts when they conflict with your world view.
This is my favourite
posted by bronwen
1. That post is total nonsense. That's why I specified that those interested in the history of the area consult a RELIABLE source. The 55% figure is correct but misleading since the Arabs, in addition to their 45%, got ALL of Trans-Jordan.
Long time since I left school but it seems you believe the arabs/palestinians who you seem to see as synonymous, got a 100% of something. Who got the rest?
Incidentally so there is no doubt I don't believe the protocols of zion are genuine but they are a good tool to stir up racial hatred and were used as such. Just as stories of islamic fundamentaists taking over the planet are being used now to portray complex issues as black and white, good and evil.
7) both sides report exactly the same facts including
from wikipedia
Others claim that the attack was premeditated and deliberate. They note that the Liberty was more than twice as large as the El Quseir, and was clearly designated with Latin rather than Arabic letters and numbers. Proponents include the surviving Liberty crewmen, [1] and some former U.S. government officials, including then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
So I'll ask you again. Do you believe these individuals are motivated by nothing more than anti semitism? Do allegations of a cover up and the acceptance of the slaughter of american servicemen for the sake of diplomacy not concern you?
Or do you just think that no one should be allowed to call an administration to account even all these years later. If you do does it also mean you will never execrcise your right to criticise a govt foreign policy and actions taken on your behalf and condemn those who do as traitors and being in support of terrorism. Just follow your leaders blindly in to whatever mess they create and never say what the ^**& are you playing at?
8) Why not watch the video? It is a sign of intelligence to always ask questions about what you believe and do as a consequence. That is the problem with fundamentalists of any kind. Not only do they never question and carefully avoid anything that challenges their world view they also don't want others doing so either and to keep their followers away from anything that might cause them to question things they are told. Ban the books and let us brainwash our children in peace. A purely religious education is a poorly one.
posted by bronwen
He is deceptive, however, (or possibly deluded) in referring to himself as 'one of the foremost Muslim scholars of our time', when he is in fact little more than a screwball. That he wants peace in the Middle East and within Islam, well, God bless him.
He's a screwball because he wants peace? I take that means you want warfare. If he's a screwball and you are sane I think I'm on his side.
Blessed are the peacemakers. I'm no bible scholar but I'm fairly sure that is in both the bible and the koran.
9) Good question. It is expressed openly in some places. Where it is not I would suggest sheer terror or a culture where any criticism of religon or the govt is not allowed. Arguably the saudis seem to have encouraged wahahism as a means of giving dissidents a non political outlet for dissent rather than allowing a politica process to develop. A frankenstein child of a repressive regime come back to haunt them. But I don't claim to be an expert
posted by bronwen
Now, having gotten all of that off my white chest (a little Welsh joke - 'Bronwen' means 'white chest'), I gotta say that the quality of your posts is improving day by day, gmc. I hope that trend will continue.
Ah flattery now you little welsh minx you.
posted by arnold layne
The quality of gmc's posting is never in doubt
As is the perspicacity of yours:-4
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Arnold wrote: There is so much wisdom and knowledge here amongst many posters. It's wasted. It just gets shredded up along with whats left - shameless bigotry
THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! I've been trying to figure out how to say that for pages.
I've got books and books of specific events that explode all the propaganda about this being Israel the Good against Islam the Terrorists. But it's a lot of typing to then have it ignored or called a pack of lies. So much valuable information has been tossed into the shredder here that it has hardly been worth the time and effort. I have other things I'm working on that are making a difference. All I see here is Bronwen, all on her own now, insisting that she is the only one who knows the truth. Pah.
THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! I've been trying to figure out how to say that for pages.
I've got books and books of specific events that explode all the propaganda about this being Israel the Good against Islam the Terrorists. But it's a lot of typing to then have it ignored or called a pack of lies. So much valuable information has been tossed into the shredder here that it has hardly been worth the time and effort. I have other things I'm working on that are making a difference. All I see here is Bronwen, all on her own now, insisting that she is the only one who knows the truth. Pah.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: 1. There's nothing silly about the threat of Islamic terrorism. If you really think that no such threat exists, what planet have you been living on?You're just doing it again - this is a constant pattern of your posts. I said "Bronwen, you're just being silly" as a specific comment about a quoted paragraph and you come back as though I was saying you're silly in a totally different context. For reference, the paragraph I derided (and gave reasons for deriding) was this:Bronwen wrote: If you will look at the cross-references you will see that many of them are to this outfit's own publications. So? Others are to other anti-Semitic sites and publications. To believe this crap you have to adopt the mindset that the entire mainstream media is a vast conspiracy to keep the 'truth' (that Jews are the devil incarnate and their enemies, the suici de bom bers, mass mur drerers and lunatic Islamic clerics, are God's chosen people) from the world. I'm not ready to make such a ridiculous assumption. Who has the closed mind here? The mainstream media may not all be completely unbiased, nor are they supposed to be. Nevertheless, they strive to report the truth, not fictitious slander.Now, what has that to do with "the threat of Islamic terrorism"?
Again for the record, I am contrasting scales of iniquity. The pinprick offences of the Arab / Muslim / Middle East nations (take your pick of target, I don't see that it matters greatly though all refer to different groupings) pale into insignificance when compared to the death-toll inflicted on those same peoples by the West over the past twenty years. Further, the great majority of those pinprick offences have been committed as a reaction to the actions of Western governments, not as a trigger of them.
http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/138319/1/4536 is entirely relevant to this thread, I recommend it to anyone who's read this far.[...]the most important development toward that end would be the effective implementation of the International Criminal Court (ICC), which is located in the Hague, Netherlands.
The court was established in 2002 and has been ratified by more than 100 countries. It is currently being used to adjudicate cases stemming from conflict in Darfur, Sudan and civil wars in Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
But on May 6, 2002--less than a year before the invasion of Iraq--the Bush administration withdrew the United States' signature on the treaty and began pressuring other countries to approve bilateral agreements requiring them not to surrender U.S. nationals to the ICC.
Three months later, George W. Bush signed a new law prohibiting any U.S. cooperation with the International Criminal Court. The law went so far as to include a provision authorizing the president to "use all means necessary and appropriate," including a military invasion of the Netherlands, to free U.S. personnel detained or imprisoned by the ICC.
Again for the record, I am contrasting scales of iniquity. The pinprick offences of the Arab / Muslim / Middle East nations (take your pick of target, I don't see that it matters greatly though all refer to different groupings) pale into insignificance when compared to the death-toll inflicted on those same peoples by the West over the past twenty years. Further, the great majority of those pinprick offences have been committed as a reaction to the actions of Western governments, not as a trigger of them.
http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/138319/1/4536 is entirely relevant to this thread, I recommend it to anyone who's read this far.[...]the most important development toward that end would be the effective implementation of the International Criminal Court (ICC), which is located in the Hague, Netherlands.
The court was established in 2002 and has been ratified by more than 100 countries. It is currently being used to adjudicate cases stemming from conflict in Darfur, Sudan and civil wars in Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
But on May 6, 2002--less than a year before the invasion of Iraq--the Bush administration withdrew the United States' signature on the treaty and began pressuring other countries to approve bilateral agreements requiring them not to surrender U.S. nationals to the ICC.
Three months later, George W. Bush signed a new law prohibiting any U.S. cooperation with the International Criminal Court. The law went so far as to include a provision authorizing the president to "use all means necessary and appropriate," including a military invasion of the Netherlands, to free U.S. personnel detained or imprisoned by the ICC.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Diuretic wrote: It's a shame Bronwen isn't from the Isle of Man gmc, she could be a Manx minx!....and if I were being kept there by an errant member of a religious order I would be a monk's Manx minx.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
gmc wrote: 1) What hordes? The chances of muslim armies invading the US or europe are so low as to be completely insignificant.
2) So you don't see zionism and christian fundamentalism as adding fuels to the fire? You do seem to see this in terms of a holy war.
3. I'm not a believer so I really don't want to get dragged in to a war amongst the religious who want to fight over whose idea of god is best.
4. Long time since I left school but it seems you believe the arabs/palestinians who you seem to see as synonymous, got a 100% of something. Who got the rest?
5. Incidentally so there is no doubt I don't believe the protocols of zion are genuine but they are a good tool to stir up racial hatred and were used as such. Just as stories of islamic fundamentaists taking over the planet are being used now to portray complex issues as black and white, good and evil.
7a) both sides report exactly the same facts...
7b. So I'll ask you again. Do you believe these individuals are motivated by nothing more than anti semitism? Do allegations of a cover up and the acceptance of the slaughter of american servicemen for the sake of diplomacy not concern you?
7c. Or do you just think that no one should be allowed to call an administration to account even all these years later. If you do does it also mean you will never execrcise your right to criticise a govt foreign policy and actions taken on your behalf and condemn those who do as traitors and being in support of terrorism. Just follow your leaders blindly in to whatever mess they create and never say what the ^**& are you playing at?
8) Why not watch the video? It is a sign of intelligence to always ask questions about what you believe and do as a consequence. That is the problem with fundamentalists of any kind. Not only do they never question and carefully avoid anything that challenges their world view they also don't want others doing so either and to keep their followers away from anything that might cause them to question things they are told. Ban the books and let us brainwash our children in peace. A purely religious education is a poorly one.
9. He's a screwball because he wants peace? I take that means you want warfare. If he's a screwball and you are sane I think I'm on his side.
10. Blessed are the peacemakers. I'm no bible scholar but I'm fairly sure that is in both the bible and the koran.1. gmc, I can't believe that you're serious here. They have already done so. Who do you think bombed the London Underground? It wasn't Jehovah's Witnesses! Any exterminator will tell you, if you see one roach or rat or bedbug you've probably got a hundred. I would guess that the number of Islamic terrorists in the UK would run into the thousands. Finsbury Park was only one mosque.
2. OF COURSE NOT! Who have they vowed to kill? Which democratic countries have they threatened to destroy?
3. Same comment, and the Islamic terrorists themselves have said (I may have quoted this earlier in the thread), 'We will win because the Jews love life and we love death.' You are making the same mistake all over again. You have every right to be an unbeliever, but you carry it too far by using the fact of your unbelief to conclude that there is no difference between religions. It doesn't follow. It would be like me saying that I have no interest in European football so all the teams must be the same.
4. Here you've lost me. My point was that some of the information on the website was technically correct but presented in a misleading manner. When the region that was formerly Palestine and Trans-Jordan was apportioned into three parts, the Israelis' share was by far the smallest. The figure that sticks in my mind is 27% but I would have to look it up to be sure.
5. See 2 & 3. That the Protocals are phony is beyond question. That Islamic terrorists have expressed such goals is a matter of fact, nothing phony about it. If you don't believe it, ask one. Who was the dirtbag with the hook for a hand who was recently deported from the UK? Ask him, if you can find him, whether his brand of Islam aspires to world domination.
7a. Howzat? If you are saying that the Wikipedia article mentions both sides of the issue, I'm aware of that.
7b. There isn't any question that the Israelis are trigger-happy. If you were 60 years old and had been threatened with death by your neighbors since the day you were born you'd probably be trigger-happy too.
7c. We're repeating ourselves here. Both nations consider the matter closed. Where free speech exists, opinions can nonetheless be given. The individuals you mentioned have a right to express their ideas on the matter.
8 & 9. He's a screwball because of various other beliefs unrelated to the theme of this thread. As I said, I have no problem with anyone who wishes to do so buying any of his materials. Can you name a single outside source that regards him as a distinguished Islamic scholar?
10. It's certainly in the Bible. Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbors for 60 years and has succeeded partially. The problem is Islamic terrorism. The choices are surrender or fight. Israel has chosen to fight. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
2) So you don't see zionism and christian fundamentalism as adding fuels to the fire? You do seem to see this in terms of a holy war.
3. I'm not a believer so I really don't want to get dragged in to a war amongst the religious who want to fight over whose idea of god is best.
4. Long time since I left school but it seems you believe the arabs/palestinians who you seem to see as synonymous, got a 100% of something. Who got the rest?
5. Incidentally so there is no doubt I don't believe the protocols of zion are genuine but they are a good tool to stir up racial hatred and were used as such. Just as stories of islamic fundamentaists taking over the planet are being used now to portray complex issues as black and white, good and evil.
7a) both sides report exactly the same facts...
7b. So I'll ask you again. Do you believe these individuals are motivated by nothing more than anti semitism? Do allegations of a cover up and the acceptance of the slaughter of american servicemen for the sake of diplomacy not concern you?
7c. Or do you just think that no one should be allowed to call an administration to account even all these years later. If you do does it also mean you will never execrcise your right to criticise a govt foreign policy and actions taken on your behalf and condemn those who do as traitors and being in support of terrorism. Just follow your leaders blindly in to whatever mess they create and never say what the ^**& are you playing at?
8) Why not watch the video? It is a sign of intelligence to always ask questions about what you believe and do as a consequence. That is the problem with fundamentalists of any kind. Not only do they never question and carefully avoid anything that challenges their world view they also don't want others doing so either and to keep their followers away from anything that might cause them to question things they are told. Ban the books and let us brainwash our children in peace. A purely religious education is a poorly one.
9. He's a screwball because he wants peace? I take that means you want warfare. If he's a screwball and you are sane I think I'm on his side.
10. Blessed are the peacemakers. I'm no bible scholar but I'm fairly sure that is in both the bible and the koran.1. gmc, I can't believe that you're serious here. They have already done so. Who do you think bombed the London Underground? It wasn't Jehovah's Witnesses! Any exterminator will tell you, if you see one roach or rat or bedbug you've probably got a hundred. I would guess that the number of Islamic terrorists in the UK would run into the thousands. Finsbury Park was only one mosque.
2. OF COURSE NOT! Who have they vowed to kill? Which democratic countries have they threatened to destroy?
3. Same comment, and the Islamic terrorists themselves have said (I may have quoted this earlier in the thread), 'We will win because the Jews love life and we love death.' You are making the same mistake all over again. You have every right to be an unbeliever, but you carry it too far by using the fact of your unbelief to conclude that there is no difference between religions. It doesn't follow. It would be like me saying that I have no interest in European football so all the teams must be the same.
4. Here you've lost me. My point was that some of the information on the website was technically correct but presented in a misleading manner. When the region that was formerly Palestine and Trans-Jordan was apportioned into three parts, the Israelis' share was by far the smallest. The figure that sticks in my mind is 27% but I would have to look it up to be sure.
5. See 2 & 3. That the Protocals are phony is beyond question. That Islamic terrorists have expressed such goals is a matter of fact, nothing phony about it. If you don't believe it, ask one. Who was the dirtbag with the hook for a hand who was recently deported from the UK? Ask him, if you can find him, whether his brand of Islam aspires to world domination.
7a. Howzat? If you are saying that the Wikipedia article mentions both sides of the issue, I'm aware of that.
7b. There isn't any question that the Israelis are trigger-happy. If you were 60 years old and had been threatened with death by your neighbors since the day you were born you'd probably be trigger-happy too.
7c. We're repeating ourselves here. Both nations consider the matter closed. Where free speech exists, opinions can nonetheless be given. The individuals you mentioned have a right to express their ideas on the matter.
8 & 9. He's a screwball because of various other beliefs unrelated to the theme of this thread. As I said, I have no problem with anyone who wishes to do so buying any of his materials. Can you name a single outside source that regards him as a distinguished Islamic scholar?
10. It's certainly in the Bible. Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbors for 60 years and has succeeded partially. The problem is Islamic terrorism. The choices are surrender or fight. Israel has chosen to fight. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: 1. gmc, I can't believe that you're serious here. They have already done so. Who do you think bombed the London Underground? It wasn't Jehovah's Witnesses! Any exterminator will tell you, if you see one roach or rat or bedbug you've probably got a hundred. I would guess that the number of Islamic terrorists in the UK would run into the thousands. Finsbury Park was only one mosque.
2. OF COURSE NOT! Who have they vowed to kill? Which democratic countries have they threatened to destroy?
3. Same comment, and the Islamic terrorists themselves have said (I may have quoted this earlier in the thread), 'We will win because the Jews love life and we love death.' You are making the same mistake all over again. You have every right to be an unbeliever, but you carry it too far by using the fact of your unbelief to conclude that there is no difference between religions. It doesn't follow. It would be like me saying that I have no interest in European football so all the teams must be the same.
4. Here you've lost me. My point was that some of the information on the website was technically correct but presented in a misleading manner. When the region that was formerly Palestine and Trans-Jordan was apportioned into three parts, the Israelis' share was by far the smallest. The figure that sticks in my mind is 27% but I would have to look it up to be sure.
5. See 2 & 3. That the Protocals are phony is beyond question. That Islamic terrorists have expressed such goals is a matter of fact, nothing phony about it. If you don't believe it, ask one. Who was the dirtbag with the hook for a hand who was recently deported from the UK? Ask him, if you can find him, whether his brand of Islam aspires to world domination.
7a. Howzat? If you are saying that the Wikipedia article mentions both sides of the issue, I'm aware of that.
7b. There isn't any question that the Israelis are trigger-happy. If you were 60 years old and had been threatened with death by your neighbors since the day you were born you'd probably be trigger-happy too.
7c. We're repeating ourselves here. Both nations consider the matter closed. Where free speech exists, opinions can nonetheless be given. The individuals you mentioned have a right to express their ideas on the matter.
8 & 9. He's a screwball because of various other beliefs unrelated to the theme of this thread. As I said, I have no problem with anyone who wishes to do so buying any of his materials. Can you name a single outside source that regards him as a distinguished Islamic scholar?
10. It's certainly in the Bible. Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbors for 60 years and has succeeded partially. The problem is Islamic terrorism. The choices are surrender or fight. Israel has chosen to fight. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
1) even if thousands, in a population of 55 million hardly a ravening horde.
2) Not countries but those of other religons. re-read some of your posts about muslims.
3) Apocalyptic views of the present situation are to be found on all sides. Bunch of loonies all of them. I still don't want to get dragged in to it.
4) I'm no longer surprised I lost you. Arithmetic is clearly not one of your talents and I have my doubts about your understanding of semantics.
5) If I try not very hard I can find christians with the same world view given half a chance they are every bit as capable of atrocity in the name of their religon as any fundamentalist muslim.
7) I will try explaining this slowly for you. You derided the site I used as a link as being anti semitic and posted a link to a site-the wikipedia you claimed reported the truth objectively. Had you read both you would realise that sites report exactly the same facts. If one is anti semitic and inaccurate and the other objective and accurate but both reports are the same then you can't dismiss one as merely anti semitic and not worthy of consideration when the other reports the same.
7c) because of an alleged cover up in which the lives of US servicemen were judged to be insignificant. If it is true that rescue attempts were stopped by higher authority that is a very serious allegation, If you are content that such things are acceptable then fine. Those making the allegation are hardly a fringe loony left element but I'm not an american it's not my problem. Also it's not really germane to the present day. I'm just surprised you don't find it outrageous. Govt's do a lot of things that they shpuldn't in the name of national security. the only thing going to stop them is the fear of being found out.
8 & 9) not going to bother you would probably decide they are all antgiu semitic anyway.
10 ) bollocks. it's just not that simple.
2. OF COURSE NOT! Who have they vowed to kill? Which democratic countries have they threatened to destroy?
3. Same comment, and the Islamic terrorists themselves have said (I may have quoted this earlier in the thread), 'We will win because the Jews love life and we love death.' You are making the same mistake all over again. You have every right to be an unbeliever, but you carry it too far by using the fact of your unbelief to conclude that there is no difference between religions. It doesn't follow. It would be like me saying that I have no interest in European football so all the teams must be the same.
4. Here you've lost me. My point was that some of the information on the website was technically correct but presented in a misleading manner. When the region that was formerly Palestine and Trans-Jordan was apportioned into three parts, the Israelis' share was by far the smallest. The figure that sticks in my mind is 27% but I would have to look it up to be sure.
5. See 2 & 3. That the Protocals are phony is beyond question. That Islamic terrorists have expressed such goals is a matter of fact, nothing phony about it. If you don't believe it, ask one. Who was the dirtbag with the hook for a hand who was recently deported from the UK? Ask him, if you can find him, whether his brand of Islam aspires to world domination.
7a. Howzat? If you are saying that the Wikipedia article mentions both sides of the issue, I'm aware of that.
7b. There isn't any question that the Israelis are trigger-happy. If you were 60 years old and had been threatened with death by your neighbors since the day you were born you'd probably be trigger-happy too.
7c. We're repeating ourselves here. Both nations consider the matter closed. Where free speech exists, opinions can nonetheless be given. The individuals you mentioned have a right to express their ideas on the matter.
8 & 9. He's a screwball because of various other beliefs unrelated to the theme of this thread. As I said, I have no problem with anyone who wishes to do so buying any of his materials. Can you name a single outside source that regards him as a distinguished Islamic scholar?
10. It's certainly in the Bible. Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbors for 60 years and has succeeded partially. The problem is Islamic terrorism. The choices are surrender or fight. Israel has chosen to fight. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
1) even if thousands, in a population of 55 million hardly a ravening horde.
2) Not countries but those of other religons. re-read some of your posts about muslims.
3) Apocalyptic views of the present situation are to be found on all sides. Bunch of loonies all of them. I still don't want to get dragged in to it.
4) I'm no longer surprised I lost you. Arithmetic is clearly not one of your talents and I have my doubts about your understanding of semantics.
5) If I try not very hard I can find christians with the same world view given half a chance they are every bit as capable of atrocity in the name of their religon as any fundamentalist muslim.
7) I will try explaining this slowly for you. You derided the site I used as a link as being anti semitic and posted a link to a site-the wikipedia you claimed reported the truth objectively. Had you read both you would realise that sites report exactly the same facts. If one is anti semitic and inaccurate and the other objective and accurate but both reports are the same then you can't dismiss one as merely anti semitic and not worthy of consideration when the other reports the same.
7c) because of an alleged cover up in which the lives of US servicemen were judged to be insignificant. If it is true that rescue attempts were stopped by higher authority that is a very serious allegation, If you are content that such things are acceptable then fine. Those making the allegation are hardly a fringe loony left element but I'm not an american it's not my problem. Also it's not really germane to the present day. I'm just surprised you don't find it outrageous. Govt's do a lot of things that they shpuldn't in the name of national security. the only thing going to stop them is the fear of being found out.
8 & 9) not going to bother you would probably decide they are all antgiu semitic anyway.
10 ) bollocks. it's just not that simple.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
gmc wrote: Arithmetic is clearly not one of your talents and I have my doubts about your understanding of semantics..Are you accusing me of being anti-Semantic?
Added later the same day:
P.S. You said:gmc wrote: You derided the site I used as a link as being anti semitic and posted a link to a site-the wikipedia you claimed reported the truth objectively. Had you read both you would realise that sites report exactly the same facts. If one is anti semitic and inaccurate and the other objective and accurate but both reports are the same then you can't dismiss one as merely anti semitic and not worthy of consideration when the other reports the same.That is incorrect. You had better go back and read them again. The Wikipedia article, while it may or may not be 100% accurate, examines the incident, as I said before, in great depth. Your propaganda website, while repeating some of the same information, skews it entirely toward their point of view, leaving out everything that damages their position, which is to say, most of the facts.
Added later the same day:
P.S. You said:gmc wrote: You derided the site I used as a link as being anti semitic and posted a link to a site-the wikipedia you claimed reported the truth objectively. Had you read both you would realise that sites report exactly the same facts. If one is anti semitic and inaccurate and the other objective and accurate but both reports are the same then you can't dismiss one as merely anti semitic and not worthy of consideration when the other reports the same.That is incorrect. You had better go back and read them again. The Wikipedia article, while it may or may not be 100% accurate, examines the incident, as I said before, in great depth. Your propaganda website, while repeating some of the same information, skews it entirely toward their point of view, leaving out everything that damages their position, which is to say, most of the facts.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: The pinprick offences of the Arab / Muslim / Middle East nations (take your pick of target, I don't see that it matters greatly though all refer to different groupings) pale into insignificance when compared to the dea th-toll inflicted on those same peoples by the West over the past twenty years. Further, the great majority of those pinprick offences have been committed as a reaction to the actions of Western governments, not as a trigger of them.Well, I'm sorry, spot, and I'm trying to think of a polite way to say you're full of sh*t.
I don't regard the 9/11 strikes, the London Underground attacks, those in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and elsewhere, as well as SIXTY YEARS of Islamic terrrorism against Israel, the only democratic nation in that region, as 'pinprick offences'. Would you care to specifiy some of the Western atrocities you're referring to? I keep asking you questions like that and you keep dodging. When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?
Regarding the International Court, that is WAY beyond the scope of this thread. My understanding of it, which may not be entirely accurate, is that it's a marginally effective way of dealing with rogue governments and dictators. How that might involve individual Americans I'm not sure, unless one of them took control of a small country somewhere. If that were truly the case, it seems unlikely that the US government would interfere.
I don't regard the 9/11 strikes, the London Underground attacks, those in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and elsewhere, as well as SIXTY YEARS of Islamic terrrorism against Israel, the only democratic nation in that region, as 'pinprick offences'. Would you care to specifiy some of the Western atrocities you're referring to? I keep asking you questions like that and you keep dodging. When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?
Regarding the International Court, that is WAY beyond the scope of this thread. My understanding of it, which may not be entirely accurate, is that it's a marginally effective way of dealing with rogue governments and dictators. How that might involve individual Americans I'm not sure, unless one of them took control of a small country somewhere. If that were truly the case, it seems unlikely that the US government would interfere.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: Would you care to specifiy some of the Western atrocities you're referring to? I keep asking you questions like that and you keep dodging.Don't be silly, Bronwen. I never dodge. Show me where I've dodged.
Let's count the minimum third of a million dead as a result of the Iraq sanctions, to begin with. See if you can come anywhere close in the total Western dead from the pinprick attacks of the last twenty - or sixty - years, I don't think you can. If you manage it, I'll push another massive and undeniable number at you until you run out of instances. I think I'm well over anything you can produce, with just one instance on my part.
"To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and murdering people who have given you no offense".Bronwen wrote: When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... hist_1.htm
Let's count the minimum third of a million dead as a result of the Iraq sanctions, to begin with. See if you can come anywhere close in the total Western dead from the pinprick attacks of the last twenty - or sixty - years, I don't think you can. If you manage it, I'll push another massive and undeniable number at you until you run out of instances. I think I'm well over anything you can produce, with just one instance on my part.
"To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and murdering people who have given you no offense".Bronwen wrote: When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... hist_1.htm
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Don't be silly, Bronwen. I never dodge. Show me where I've dodged.
Let's count the minimum third of a million dead as a result of the Iraq sanctions, to begin with. See if you can come anywhere close in the total Western dead from the pinprick attacks of the last twenty - or sixty - years, I don't think you can. If you manage it, I'll push another massive and undeniable number at you until you run out of instances. I think I'm well over anything you can produce, with just one instance on my part.
"To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and murdering people who have given you no offense".Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... hist_1.htm
Shouldn't Sadam get some of the responsibilty for the sanctions.
The Vincennes shootdown was a tragic accident, not an intentional murder of civilians.
Let's count the minimum third of a million dead as a result of the Iraq sanctions, to begin with. See if you can come anywhere close in the total Western dead from the pinprick attacks of the last twenty - or sixty - years, I don't think you can. If you manage it, I'll push another massive and undeniable number at you until you run out of instances. I think I'm well over anything you can produce, with just one instance on my part.
"To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and murdering people who have given you no offense".Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... hist_1.htm
Shouldn't Sadam get some of the responsibilty for the sanctions.
The Vincennes shootdown was a tragic accident, not an intentional murder of civilians.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: 1. Let's count the minimum third of a million de ad as a result of the Iraq sanctions, to begin with. See if you can come anywhere close in the total Western de ad from the pinprick attacks of the last twenty - or sixty - years, I don't think you can. If you manage it, I'll push another massive and undeniable number at you until you run out of instances. I think I'm well over anything you can produce, with just one instance on my part.
2. "To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and ki11ing people who have given you no offense".Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... ist_1.htm1. Well, fine, let's count them. How many Iraqi civilians slain by Western troops and how many slain by Islamic terrrorists? You tell me. All I hear on radio and TV every day is how many are slain, almost daily, by Islamic extremists, and that includes a large number of intersectarian ki11ings within Islam. If you are blaming all of that on Western troops you have removed yourself from reality. Of course, one also hears of Western troops, as well as Iraqi forces, ki11ing terrrorists. That's fine, that's why they're there.
And by the way, I've never said, implied or even hinted that I approve of US intervention in Iraq, but as I pointed out earlier, George W. Bush will be gone in less than 2 1/2 years. Islamic terrrorism will be with us until it is destroyed, and the sooner the better.
2. I see a link to a website describing the history of a battleship. So?? zinkyusa wrote: The Vincennes shootdown was a tragic acc ident, not an intentional mu rder of civiliansInteresting - I don't see that on the link. Am I going blind? In any case, I'm not aware of the incident. It certainly doesn't sound like an act of terrrorism.
Hey, spot, here's an idea, why not just disarm, sit back and let radical Islam take over the world? Then your mother, wife and daughters can have the pleasure of being treated worse than animals under Shariya law.
2. "To me you are professional vagabonds who wander from place to place, gaining your livelihood by robbing, sacking, and ki11ing people who have given you no offense".Good lord, you do walk into these things... http://www.ussvincennes.org/vincennes/c ... ist_1.htm1. Well, fine, let's count them. How many Iraqi civilians slain by Western troops and how many slain by Islamic terrrorists? You tell me. All I hear on radio and TV every day is how many are slain, almost daily, by Islamic extremists, and that includes a large number of intersectarian ki11ings within Islam. If you are blaming all of that on Western troops you have removed yourself from reality. Of course, one also hears of Western troops, as well as Iraqi forces, ki11ing terrrorists. That's fine, that's why they're there.
And by the way, I've never said, implied or even hinted that I approve of US intervention in Iraq, but as I pointed out earlier, George W. Bush will be gone in less than 2 1/2 years. Islamic terrrorism will be with us until it is destroyed, and the sooner the better.
2. I see a link to a website describing the history of a battleship. So?? zinkyusa wrote: The Vincennes shootdown was a tragic acc ident, not an intentional mu rder of civiliansInteresting - I don't see that on the link. Am I going blind? In any case, I'm not aware of the incident. It certainly doesn't sound like an act of terrrorism.
Hey, spot, here's an idea, why not just disarm, sit back and let radical Islam take over the world? Then your mother, wife and daughters can have the pleasure of being treated worse than animals under Shariya law.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
zinkyusa wrote: Shouldn't Sadam get some of the responsibilty for the sanctions.Absolutely not, and in any theoretical world where the Nuremberg Trial informed the legal framework of interation between nations he'd either still be President of Iraq or he'd have been internally deposed, either of which would work fine for me.zinkyusa wrote: The Vincennes shootdown was a tragic accident, not an intentional murder of civilians.The words incompetence, or criminal negligence, or actually being within Iranian territorial waters at the time and lying about it afterwards, don't form part of your vocabulary?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Zink I was gonna warn you about stepping into this thread. However interesting and educational this thread is. ( On both sides ) If you can't type about 100 words a minute and have resources out the wazoo you have no chance here. Read, enjoy the thread then run like hell.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: 1. Well, fine, let's count them. How many Iraqi civilians slain by Western troops and how many slain by Islamic terrrorists? You tell me. All I hear on radio and TV every day is how many are slain, almost daily, by Islamic extremists, and that includes a large number of intersectarian ki11ings within Islam. If you are blaming all of that on Western troops you have removed yourself from reality.I'm blaming all that on the presence of Western troops, with good reason.Bronwen wrote: 2. I see a link to a website describing the history of a battleship. So?? Interesting - I don't see that on the link. Am I going blind? In any case, I'm not aware of the incident. It certainly doesn't sound like an act of terrrorism.I didn't see any mention of "the incident" either, I was offering you an excuse for "I'm not aware of the incident". You didn't ask for an act of terrorism, you asked for "the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations". Bang on, I'd call that.
Bronwen wrote: Hey, spot, here's an idea, why not just disarm, sit back and let radical Islam take over the world? Then your wife and daughters can have the pleasure of being treated worse than animals under Shariya law.You feel it would "let radical Islam take over the world", I feel it wouldn't. I've given my reasons several times in the past. Besides, even at that extreme limit I'd much rather live under Sharia law - and feel safe, I might add, and feel my wife and daughters were safe as well - than be a continuing party to the mass murder perpetrated by the "Coalition of the Willing" in their deceptively-named "War on Terror", based as it is on deliberate lies and media manipulation.
Bronwen wrote: Hey, spot, here's an idea, why not just disarm, sit back and let radical Islam take over the world? Then your wife and daughters can have the pleasure of being treated worse than animals under Shariya law.You feel it would "let radical Islam take over the world", I feel it wouldn't. I've given my reasons several times in the past. Besides, even at that extreme limit I'd much rather live under Sharia law - and feel safe, I might add, and feel my wife and daughters were safe as well - than be a continuing party to the mass murder perpetrated by the "Coalition of the Willing" in their deceptively-named "War on Terror", based as it is on deliberate lies and media manipulation.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: I'd much rather live under Sharia law - and feel safe, I might add, and feel my wife and daughters were safe as well - than be a continuing party to the mass mu rder perpetrated by the "Coalition of the Willing" in their deceptively-named "War on Ter ror", based as it is on deliberate lies and media manipulation.There is nothing that I know of to prevent you from taking the entire family to a country where such law is in force. You could load up the truck, 'Beverly Hillbillies' style. I'm just not sure that mom, sweetiepie and the kids would enjoy it as much as you would.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: There is nothing that I know of to prevent you from taking the entire family to a country where such law is in force. You could load up the truck, 'Beverly Hillbillies' style. I'm just not sure that mom, sweetiepie and the kids would enjoy it as much as you would.I did offer "Even then" as a proviso. As it happens I can continue to live here and refuse to be a continuing party to the mass murder perpetrated by the "Coalition of the Willing" in their deceptively-named "War on Terror", based as it is on deliberate lies and media manipulation. I can oppose it, vote against it, hold a placard down on St Augustine's Parade during the rush hour and clap whenever George Galloway speaks at the Malcolm X Centre. Most of all I can entice extremists with grotesque philosophies into making a laughing stock of themselves on Forumgarden, to educate others.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: I did offer "Even then" as a proviso. As it happens I can continue to live here and refuse to be a continuing party to the mass perpetrated by the "Coalition of the Willing" in their deceptively-named "War on ", based as it is on deliberate lies and media manipulation. I can oppose it, vote against it, hold a placard down on St Augustine's Parade during the rush hour and clap whenever George Galloway speaks at the Malcolm X Centre. Most of all I can entice extremists with grotesque philosophies into making a laughing stock of themselves on Forumgarden, to educate others.Very nicely put. Now may I ask you two completely unrelated questions?
My German visa runs out at the end of October and I am going to have to leave Germany for three months, after which I can return and apply for a new visa. I'm not sure where I'm going to spend those three months, but I am considering Wales because...
1. I have heard that tourists in the UK are automatically insured under the NHS, and...
2. I would like to improve my knowledge of yr hen iaith.
Can you tell me...
1. Is this true? And...
2. Where, in your opinion, would be the best place to hear Welsh spoken on a daily basis and have the opportunity to speak some myself?
Any other Cymry are, of course, also invited to respond.
My German visa runs out at the end of October and I am going to have to leave Germany for three months, after which I can return and apply for a new visa. I'm not sure where I'm going to spend those three months, but I am considering Wales because...
1. I have heard that tourists in the UK are automatically insured under the NHS, and...
2. I would like to improve my knowledge of yr hen iaith.
Can you tell me...
1. Is this true? And...
2. Where, in your opinion, would be the best place to hear Welsh spoken on a daily basis and have the opportunity to speak some myself?
Any other Cymry are, of course, also invited to respond.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
My understanding is that tourists from within the European Union are fully insured for treatment within the NHS while in the UK, yes.Nationals of the member states of the European Economic Area (EEA), or their dependants, and refugee and stateless persons living within the EEA, have the right to NHS treatment without charge where the need arises during their stay. EEA national who wish to enter the UK for treatment should obtain authorization from their national social security association which will bear the cost of the treatment.That's from http://www.avert.org/freenhs.htm which is very wordy and has notes on General Practitioners which are potentially interesting, you might like to carry a printed copy of the page with you in your luggage.
Welsh as a first language is largely concentrated in the less urban north and west of Wales, principally Gwynedd, Denbighshire, Anglesey (Ynys Môn), Carmarthenshire, North Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, and parts of western Glamorgan and south-western Powys, although first-language and other fluent speakers can be found throughout Wales.That from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language and you have the advantage that the region is also perhaps the prettiest. Anglesey is a wonderful part. The Lleyn peninsula, out from Porthmadog to Pwllheli, would keep me entranced for three months easily. I'm sure you'd find all the opportunities to speak and hear Welsh that you could hope for.
If I might mention it, the Isle of Man is close to that corner of Wales and has its own Viking-derived language still in use too. You might visit once you have exposure to Welsh for contrast.
Edit: Your wording finally penetrated - you're not a EEA national, are you. I'll reconsider the first part assuming that you only hold US citizenship and report further.
Welsh as a first language is largely concentrated in the less urban north and west of Wales, principally Gwynedd, Denbighshire, Anglesey (Ynys Môn), Carmarthenshire, North Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, and parts of western Glamorgan and south-western Powys, although first-language and other fluent speakers can be found throughout Wales.That from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language and you have the advantage that the region is also perhaps the prettiest. Anglesey is a wonderful part. The Lleyn peninsula, out from Porthmadog to Pwllheli, would keep me entranced for three months easily. I'm sure you'd find all the opportunities to speak and hear Welsh that you could hope for.
If I might mention it, the Isle of Man is close to that corner of Wales and has its own Viking-derived language still in use too. You might visit once you have exposure to Welsh for contrast.
Edit: Your wording finally penetrated - you're not a EEA national, are you. I'll reconsider the first part assuming that you only hold US citizenship and report further.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Absolutely not, and in any theoretical world where the Nuremberg Trial informed the legal framework of interation between nations he'd either still be President of Iraq or he'd have been internally deposed, either of which would work fine for me.The words incompetence, or criminal negligence, or actually being within Iranian territorial waters at the time and lying about it afterwards, don't form part of your vocabulary?
Invading a foreign country used to be against foreign used to ivo of international law. Maybe not where you live.
Are the words taking off from a joint civilian military hostile airfield without IFF on and then flying directly at a warship part of your vocabulary. I agree it was tragic mistake but you have left to look at intent don't you? The crew would not have fired if they knew it was a civilian aircraft. Contrast that with terrorists like Hizbollah, or Hamas who deliberatly target civilians..
Invading a foreign country used to be against foreign used to ivo of international law. Maybe not where you live.
Are the words taking off from a joint civilian military hostile airfield without IFF on and then flying directly at a warship part of your vocabulary. I agree it was tragic mistake but you have left to look at intent don't you? The crew would not have fired if they knew it was a civilian aircraft. Contrast that with terrorists like Hizbollah, or Hamas who deliberatly target civilians..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
YZGI wrote: Zink I was gonna warn you about stepping into this thread. However interesting and educational this thread is. ( On both sides ) If you can't type about 100 words a minute and have resources out the wazoo you have no chance here. Read, enjoy the thread then run like hell.
eh, eh, eh, now you tell me yzgi:-5
eh, eh, eh, now you tell me yzgi:-5
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Edit: Your wording finally penetrated - you're not a EEA national, are you. I'll reconsider the first part assuming that you only hold US citizenship and report further.That is correct, and I had heard or read somewhere that ALL tourists are covered for the length of the tourist visa, which in the case of US citizens in six months, twice as long as I expect to be there. BUT - that information may be incorrect. If so, I can continue my present insurance, whose coverage area includes the UK, but listen, free is always better than expensive, so it didn't hurt to ask.
Regarding the info on Wales and the language, thank you very much, that is really helpful. I have been in Cardiff, Newport and that area only, and heard virtually no Welsh spoken there, but also visited some smaller towns in the Rhondda Fawr and did hear some there. I even saw some coracles, which I understand are becoming an endangered species. That was in 1998.
Since then I have been in London a couple of times, but have not had the opportunity to return to Wales. Thanks again.
Regarding the info on Wales and the language, thank you very much, that is really helpful. I have been in Cardiff, Newport and that area only, and heard virtually no Welsh spoken there, but also visited some smaller towns in the Rhondda Fawr and did hear some there. I even saw some coracles, which I understand are becoming an endangered species. That was in 1998.
Since then I have been in London a couple of times, but have not had the opportunity to return to Wales. Thanks again.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
zinkyusa wrote: Invading a foreign country used to be against foreign used to ivo of international law. Maybe not where you live.
Are the words taking off from a joint civilian military hostile airfield without IFF on and then flying directly at a warship part of your vocabulary. I agree it was tragic mistake but you have left to look at intent don't you? The crew would not have fired if they knew it was a civilian aircraft. Contrast that with terrorists like Hizbollah, or Hamas who deliberatly target civilians..
Invading a foreign country used to be a violation of international law? Would that it still were!! I’m all in favour of that, sunshine.
As for the events relating to the USS Vincennes and the motives (or incompetence) and location of its crew on the day in question, perhaps we can agree that different stories have appeared at different times and that it would take you and I some while to produce an account which included enough variations to satisfy us both.
Are the words taking off from a joint civilian military hostile airfield without IFF on and then flying directly at a warship part of your vocabulary. I agree it was tragic mistake but you have left to look at intent don't you? The crew would not have fired if they knew it was a civilian aircraft. Contrast that with terrorists like Hizbollah, or Hamas who deliberatly target civilians..
Invading a foreign country used to be a violation of international law? Would that it still were!! I’m all in favour of that, sunshine.
As for the events relating to the USS Vincennes and the motives (or incompetence) and location of its crew on the day in question, perhaps we can agree that different stories have appeared at different times and that it would take you and I some while to produce an account which included enough variations to satisfy us both.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote: That is correct, and I had heard or read somewhere that ALL tourists are covered for the length of the tourist visa, which in the case of US citizens in six months, twice as long as I expect to be there. BUT - that information may be incorrect. If so, I can continue my present insurance, whose coverage area includes the UK, but listen, free is always better than expensive, so it didn't hurt to ask.
"American citizens are reminded that medical treatment cannot be provided free of charge as visitors to this country do not qualify for treatment under the National Health Service." - from http://unitedkingdom.usembassy.gov/cons ... s_2005.pdf
"American citizens are reminded that medical treatment cannot be provided free of charge as visitors to this country do not qualify for treatment under the National Health Service." - from http://unitedkingdom.usembassy.gov/cons ... s_2005.pdf
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Invading a foreign country used to be a violation of international law? Would that it still were!! I’m all in favour of that, sunshine.
As for the events relating to the USS Vincennes and the motives (or incompetence) and location of its crew on the day in question, perhaps we can agree that different stories have appeared at different times and that it would take you and I some while to produce an account which included enough variations to satisfy us both.
Fair enough..can't find the shakin" hands smilely..:-5
As for the events relating to the USS Vincennes and the motives (or incompetence) and location of its crew on the day in question, perhaps we can agree that different stories have appeared at different times and that it would take you and I some while to produce an account which included enough variations to satisfy us both.
Fair enough..can't find the shakin" hands smilely..:-5
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bronwen wrote:
Would you care to specifiy some of the Western atrocities you're referring to? I keep asking you questions like that and you keep dodging. When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?
Rather than just Arab - how's about the Korean passenger airliner shot down by the Americans. More than slightly embarrasing what?
Would you care to specifiy some of the Western atrocities you're referring to? I keep asking you questions like that and you keep dodging. When was, for example, the last Arab airliner, filled with civilians, blown out of the sky by Western nations?
Rather than just Arab - how's about the Korean passenger airliner shot down by the Americans. More than slightly embarrasing what?
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bryn Mawr wrote: Rather than just Arab - how's about the Korean passenger airliner shot down by the Americans. More than slightly embarrasing what?
perhaps you're thinking of the korean passenger airliner shot down by *the soviets*.
more than slightly embarrassing confusing the coldwar bear with yanks, what?
perhaps you're thinking of the korean passenger airliner shot down by *the soviets*.
more than slightly embarrassing confusing the coldwar bear with yanks, what?
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Perhaps Bryn over-abbreviated. It's generally assumed over here that US surveillance flights had mimicked the KAL route in the weeks before the event, and that this particular KAL flight was deliberately re-routed without the pilot's knowledge in order to provoke a lighting up of the Soviet radar and defence systems. It's usually talked of as a US operation that went too far, rather than a Soviet kill, with KAL as the duped and unaware piggy in the middle.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Perhaps Bryn over-abbreviated. It's generally assumed over here that US surveillance flights had mimicked the KAL route in the weeks before the event, and that this particular KAL flight was deliberately re-routed without the pilot's knowledge in order to provoke a lighting up of the Soviet radar and defence systems. It's usually talked of as a US operation that went too far, rather than a Soviet kill, with KAL as the duped and unaware piggy in the middle.
well how could anyone think otherwise? the US is the source of all evil in the world, don't you know?
well how could anyone think otherwise? the US is the source of all evil in the world, don't you know?
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Perhaps Bryn over-abbreviated. It's generally assumed over here that US surveillance flights had mimicked the KAL route in the weeks before the event, and that this particular KAL flight was deliberately re-routed without the pilot's knowledge in order to provoke a lighting up of the Soviet radar and defence systems. It's usually talked of as a US operation that went too far, rather than a Soviet kill, with KAL as the duped and unaware piggy in the middle.
Having just come back from a night out after work my statement of cause and effect was not as straight a line as it could be.
The intent was more accurate than the wording. Thank you for filling in the gaps Spot.
Having just come back from a night out after work my statement of cause and effect was not as straight a line as it could be.
The intent was more accurate than the wording. Thank you for filling in the gaps Spot.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: well how could anyone think otherwise? the US is the source of all evil in the world, don't you know?If you work on the basis that had the USAF had stayed snug at home that night no civilian plane would have gone down, it's a fair assessment of responsibility.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: If you work on the basis that had the USAF had stayed snug at home that night no civilian plane would have gone down, it's a fair assessment of responsibility.
right. it doesn't matter who actually pulls the trigger. it never does. the united states will *always* bear the responsibility.
you know, bush actually had hurricane katrina created specifically so he could kill black people? it's true.
right. it doesn't matter who actually pulls the trigger. it never does. the united states will *always* bear the responsibility.
you know, bush actually had hurricane katrina created specifically so he could kill black people? it's true.
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: ryou know, bush actually had hurricane katrina created specifically so he could kill black people? it's true.You are a fool, Paul, for the simple reason that you trivialize and refuse to consider the valid streak in what's being said. Take the centre ground and balance the idiot extremes, show them up for the foolishness they are. In any thread where there's a reasonable voice and an idiot, the idiot carries only like-minded opinion-holders with him and they were never going to think for themselves in the first place. If you want to influence rather than comment, avoid the extremities.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: right. it doesn't matter who actually pulls the trigger. it never does.Oh, and as for this - dead right, my son, never was a truer word spoken. That is wildly perceptive and I love it. It's such a pity you didn't mean what you said.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Oh, and as for this - dead right, my son, never was a truer word spoken. That is wildly perceptive and I love it. It's such a pity you didn't mean what you said.
what i find extraordinarily sad is the utterly, tragically deluded mentality that really does believe that the person pulling the trigger is the victim, rather than the perpetrator.
there's an old saying - 'a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet'.
you are living, breathing evidence of same. all murderers are victims. all tinpot dictators and terrorists are victims. palestinian suicide bombers are victims.
the actual victims? just more grist for your ideological mill.
what i find extraordinarily sad is the utterly, tragically deluded mentality that really does believe that the person pulling the trigger is the victim, rather than the perpetrator.
there's an old saying - 'a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet'.
you are living, breathing evidence of same. all murderers are victims. all tinpot dictators and terrorists are victims. palestinian suicide bombers are victims.
the actual victims? just more grist for your ideological mill.
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: what i find extraordinarily sad is the utterly, tragically deluded mentality that really does believe that the person pulling the trigger is the victim, rather than the perpetrator.
there's an old saying - 'a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet'.
you are living, breathing evidence of same. all murderers are victims. all tinpot dictators and terrorists are victims. palestinian suicide bombers are victims.
the actual victims? just more grist for your ideological mill.You misinterpret me. I'm referring to the grunts on the ground compared to the officers and the politicians who never face risks. The guy who pulls the trigger is far less responsible than the one who commands the action.
there's an old saying - 'a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet'.
you are living, breathing evidence of same. all murderers are victims. all tinpot dictators and terrorists are victims. palestinian suicide bombers are victims.
the actual victims? just more grist for your ideological mill.You misinterpret me. I'm referring to the grunts on the ground compared to the officers and the politicians who never face risks. The guy who pulls the trigger is far less responsible than the one who commands the action.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: You misinterpret me. I'm referring to the grunts on the ground compared to the officers and the politicians who never face risks. The guy who pulls the trigger is far less responsible than the one who commands the action.
so the "i vas just following orders" defense works for you. figures, considering.
so the "i vas just following orders" defense works for you. figures, considering.
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: Perhaps Bryn over-abbreviated. It's generally assumed over here that US surveillance flights had mimicked the KAL route in the weeks before the event, and that this particular KAL flight was deliberately re-routed without the pilot's knowledge in order to provoke a lighting up of the Soviet radar and defence systems. It's usually talked of as a US operation that went too far, rather than a Soviet kill, with KAL as the duped and unaware piggy in the middle.
You all get some good drugs over there don't you. Precription meds? Crack? Whatever it is it fries you good.
The Russian pilots read the tail number of the KAL flight and noted the Korean flag on the fuselage. They passed that information back to their ground controller. After checking with higher authorities (the Sovs never did anything on their own iniatitve) the GC ordered the pilots to shoot the KAL flight down. It's all on transcripts boys. The vdr which the Russian's eventually produced showed the crew had no idea they were off course and were flying on autopilot which was incorrectley set. It had been set to either left-of-course in heading mode or had been switched to INS when out of range for a lock. This left the airliner on the constant magnetic heading chosen when the craft left Anchorage. The pilots adimitted to lying about firing warning shots as well. It was a massacre boys pure and simple.
Have a nice evening.
You all get some good drugs over there don't you. Precription meds? Crack? Whatever it is it fries you good.
The Russian pilots read the tail number of the KAL flight and noted the Korean flag on the fuselage. They passed that information back to their ground controller. After checking with higher authorities (the Sovs never did anything on their own iniatitve) the GC ordered the pilots to shoot the KAL flight down. It's all on transcripts boys. The vdr which the Russian's eventually produced showed the crew had no idea they were off course and were flying on autopilot which was incorrectley set. It had been set to either left-of-course in heading mode or had been switched to INS when out of range for a lock. This left the airliner on the constant magnetic heading chosen when the craft left Anchorage. The pilots adimitted to lying about firing warning shots as well. It was a massacre boys pure and simple.
Have a nice evening.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
zinkyusa wrote: You all get some good drugs over there don't you. Precription meds? Crack? Whatever it is it fries you good.
The Russian pilots read the tail number of the KAL flight and noted the Korean flag on the fuselage. They passed that information back to their ground controller. After checking with higher authorities (the Sovs never did anything on their own iniatitve) the GC ordered the pilots to shoot the KAL flight down. It's all on transcripts boys. The vdr which the Russian's eventually produced showed the crew had no idea they were off course and were flying on autopilot which was incorrectley set. It had been set to either left-of-course in heading mode or had been switched to INS when out of range for a lock. This left the airliner on the constant magnetic heading chosen when the craft left Anchorage. The pilots adimitted to lying about firing warning shots as well. It was a massacre boys pure and simple.
Have a nice evening.
Why is it that some people insist on personal insults like "Precription meds? Crack? Whatever it is it fries you good."? That's so pointlessly rude and so obviously irrelevant and inaccurate.
I don't see the slightest contradiction between what I wrote and what you wrote, both sets of data map together perfectly.
The Russian pilots read the tail number of the KAL flight and noted the Korean flag on the fuselage. They passed that information back to their ground controller. After checking with higher authorities (the Sovs never did anything on their own iniatitve) the GC ordered the pilots to shoot the KAL flight down. It's all on transcripts boys. The vdr which the Russian's eventually produced showed the crew had no idea they were off course and were flying on autopilot which was incorrectley set. It had been set to either left-of-course in heading mode or had been switched to INS when out of range for a lock. This left the airliner on the constant magnetic heading chosen when the craft left Anchorage. The pilots adimitted to lying about firing warning shots as well. It was a massacre boys pure and simple.
Have a nice evening.
Why is it that some people insist on personal insults like "Precription meds? Crack? Whatever it is it fries you good."? That's so pointlessly rude and so obviously irrelevant and inaccurate.
I don't see the slightest contradiction between what I wrote and what you wrote, both sets of data map together perfectly.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: right. it doesn't matter who actually pulls the trigger. it never does. the united states will *always* bear the responsibility.
you know, bush actually had hurricane katrina created specifically so he could kill black people? it's true.
I've read that Bush thinks god talks to him but do you really think god listens to Bush?
:sneaky:
you know, bush actually had hurricane katrina created specifically so he could kill black people? it's true.
I've read that Bush thinks god talks to him but do you really think god listens to Bush?
:sneaky:500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: so the "i vas just following orders" defense works for you. figures, considering.Not in the least, I'm all for hanging the grunts too - and most especially the damned pilots - if they kill indiscriminately. I'm sick to the back teeth with the guys who give the order to kill indiscriminately or disproportionately or without just cause being immune from any judicial come-back, and I think that's a very fair position to adopt.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
spot wrote: "American citizens are reminded that medical treatment cannot be provided free of charge as visitors to this country do not qualify for treatment under the National Health Service." - from http://unitedkingdom.usembassy.gov/cons ... 005.pdfI'd say that pretty much settles the matter, and I really appreciate the time you took to ferret that out for me. Diolch yn fawr!
NOW...regarding your comments on the subject of world politics, spot, you are an idealist. I agree in principle with nearly everything you espouse, but the real world doesn't work that way. If the Western nations followed your ideals, the Ismalic ists would rule the world. Are you really, truly sure that you want your daughters enslaved under Shariya law, unable to work or be educated? Better think it over some more.
NOW...regarding your comments on the subject of world politics, spot, you are an idealist. I agree in principle with nearly everything you espouse, but the real world doesn't work that way. If the Western nations followed your ideals, the Ismalic ists would rule the world. Are you really, truly sure that you want your daughters enslaved under Shariya law, unable to work or be educated? Better think it over some more.