Bryn Mawr wrote: Could you give an attribution for them reading the plain's numbers etc?
I've finally found the time to look at the sources and found nothing to suggest that they came anywhere closer than a mile from the aircraft - bloody good eyesight that.
you need better sources. like the pilot who shot the jet down.
http://users.rcn.com/lana.interport/link/colonel.html
200 meters is far less than a mile. far less.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
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anastrophe
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: you need better sources. like the pilot who shot the jet down.
http://users.rcn.com/lana.interport/link/colonel.html
200 meters is far less than a mile. far less.
Stiil must have had good eyesight to see the numbers in the dark. No night vision goggles in those days.
WW1 was a war fought amongst empires. Everybody was playing the empire game even the Americans. If you look closely at history industry and empire have always gone hand in hand. All nations acted in what they thought were their own best interests. WW2 was different in that ideology was involved and it was a war for survival.
Fascism wasn't confined to Italy and Germany, Mussolini and Hitler had their admirers in other countries as well. The US had both an influential pacifist movement and also a right wing fascist as well as communist one. we all did. Anti Semitism was not just a German phenomenon it was universal. Quite frankly nobody cared. Even the US was hardly immune-in 1939 the Americans sent a boatload 900 Jewish refugees back to Nazi Germany polls at the time showed two thirds of Americans were opposed to taking in Jewish refugee children .In hindsight that seems appalling but at the time most Americans wanted nothing to do with another European war and no one could have imagined what would happen in the concentration camps or have believed the reports.
If you dig in to who gave money to Hitler some very surprising sources show up. Hitler didn't put Jews in the concentration camps to begin with he put in the political opposition, once they had been scared in to silence then he started on the path of destruction. Many in Europe and the US wanted to emulate him at least so far as silencing the political left was concerned. He also played the nationalist patriotic card rather heavily. So did Mussolini. If you wonder why overt my country right or wrong patriotism is not a feature of European politics the reasons go back to ww2 and what it led to. That kind if blind patriotism died a death.
We don't have a veterans day or a victory day or anything like it. We have remembrance day to remember the dead and remind ourselves of the futility and stupidity of war and a promise not to do it again.
It was a different time and attitudes were very different and it hard to put yourself in the mindset of people at the time. Churchill thought he was fighting for the British Empire and the British people didn't which is why he got booted out straight after the war. He was a man of his times-a good wartime leader but also a home secretary whom was prepared to send tanks and troops on to the streets if he thought it necessary-people remembered that as well as giving him credit for his leadership but post ww2 no one was going to go back to business as usual with the same bastards ruling as before.
True America didn't need to get involved in ww2 – if Hitler had had the sense not to declare war on America they would have not been involved in Europe at all. We could have made peace with Hitler but chose not to else the US would be facing a Europe dominated by the Russians. But that didn't happen.
The roots of what is happening now go back to those times. Politicians do what they think expedient and in their interests, not what is right and will fly any kite to get people to support them. Both the American and British leadership lied to get an invasion of Iraq. They're still doing it because they think we are too stupid to realise it.
The difference is we should be able to call politicians to account rather than just follow blindly and assume “they know best.. Perhaps the biggest criminals are those who believe you can have a good war with only the bad guys get killed and having liberated a country, once the celebrations are over everybody goes home and lives happy ever after. The fools are the ones that fall for it. Warfare should be a last resort and then an all out destroy your enemy affair. Politicians haven't changed hopefully the people-who have always in the end called the tune, have.
There is no such thing as a limited war. WW2was total war with civilians deliberately targeted by all sides. IF the Hitler had developed the atomic bomb he would have used it, so would Japan. It is also clear that without Nagasaki and Hiroshima the Japanese would have fought on and the casualties invading Japan would have been far far greater than either of those events. The atomic bombs were not an atrocity, it was industrial no holds barred warfare, the best way to kill an enemy is from a distance preferably without giving them a chance to shoot back we-as in the west happen to be very good at it. Being nice in war is ludicrous.
Which is one reason the idea that Islamic terrorists will take over is laughable. They have no chance whatsoever. In a free country to justify attacking another you need to create an enemy because free people do not just do what they are told. They need to engender a climate of fear to do what they want and shut up those who would question-shoving them in to concentration camps won't work so make it socially acceptable and unpatriotic to disagree.
If you want to look at how hitler got power despite only having around than a third of the vote in 1933 it makes fascinating study. One of the reasons Germany has proportional representation imposed on it after ww2 was to prevent a similar thing happening again. because it prevents a minority party-in terms of it's share of the vote-being able to get control by having the majority of the seats in the reischsatg and thus taking power despite most not supporting it.
Terrorists do not represent nation states. The very fact they have to act covertly and use terror tactics should tell you that. Conventional warfare doesn't work. If the US had gone in to Afghanistan and got Osama Bin Laden it might have stopped it cold but instead 911 was used as an excuse to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 911 and was no longer a threat to its neighbours, best let the Iraqis sort out their own problems instead Osama is a folk hero and fundamentalists get more and more support as they are seen as defending Islam against Western aggression.
Sooner or later Israel will have to take steps to remove terrorists, not by open warfare but by addressing the reasons they get support in their populations. All they have done is ensure another generation if warfare in Lebanon and the west stood by and watched. Any moral high ground was lost a long time ago.
You can only make peace with the one you are fighting. Or you completely destroy them which clearly Israel can't and turning them in to a resistance movement is a tactic that will not work.
It's a truism, I think, that those who do not study what has gone before are forever doomed to make the same mistakes. Trust me I'm a politician is one lesson we never learn.
http://users.rcn.com/lana.interport/link/colonel.html
200 meters is far less than a mile. far less.
Stiil must have had good eyesight to see the numbers in the dark. No night vision goggles in those days.
WW1 was a war fought amongst empires. Everybody was playing the empire game even the Americans. If you look closely at history industry and empire have always gone hand in hand. All nations acted in what they thought were their own best interests. WW2 was different in that ideology was involved and it was a war for survival.
Fascism wasn't confined to Italy and Germany, Mussolini and Hitler had their admirers in other countries as well. The US had both an influential pacifist movement and also a right wing fascist as well as communist one. we all did. Anti Semitism was not just a German phenomenon it was universal. Quite frankly nobody cared. Even the US was hardly immune-in 1939 the Americans sent a boatload 900 Jewish refugees back to Nazi Germany polls at the time showed two thirds of Americans were opposed to taking in Jewish refugee children .In hindsight that seems appalling but at the time most Americans wanted nothing to do with another European war and no one could have imagined what would happen in the concentration camps or have believed the reports.
If you dig in to who gave money to Hitler some very surprising sources show up. Hitler didn't put Jews in the concentration camps to begin with he put in the political opposition, once they had been scared in to silence then he started on the path of destruction. Many in Europe and the US wanted to emulate him at least so far as silencing the political left was concerned. He also played the nationalist patriotic card rather heavily. So did Mussolini. If you wonder why overt my country right or wrong patriotism is not a feature of European politics the reasons go back to ww2 and what it led to. That kind if blind patriotism died a death.
We don't have a veterans day or a victory day or anything like it. We have remembrance day to remember the dead and remind ourselves of the futility and stupidity of war and a promise not to do it again.
It was a different time and attitudes were very different and it hard to put yourself in the mindset of people at the time. Churchill thought he was fighting for the British Empire and the British people didn't which is why he got booted out straight after the war. He was a man of his times-a good wartime leader but also a home secretary whom was prepared to send tanks and troops on to the streets if he thought it necessary-people remembered that as well as giving him credit for his leadership but post ww2 no one was going to go back to business as usual with the same bastards ruling as before.
True America didn't need to get involved in ww2 – if Hitler had had the sense not to declare war on America they would have not been involved in Europe at all. We could have made peace with Hitler but chose not to else the US would be facing a Europe dominated by the Russians. But that didn't happen.
The roots of what is happening now go back to those times. Politicians do what they think expedient and in their interests, not what is right and will fly any kite to get people to support them. Both the American and British leadership lied to get an invasion of Iraq. They're still doing it because they think we are too stupid to realise it.
The difference is we should be able to call politicians to account rather than just follow blindly and assume “they know best.. Perhaps the biggest criminals are those who believe you can have a good war with only the bad guys get killed and having liberated a country, once the celebrations are over everybody goes home and lives happy ever after. The fools are the ones that fall for it. Warfare should be a last resort and then an all out destroy your enemy affair. Politicians haven't changed hopefully the people-who have always in the end called the tune, have.
There is no such thing as a limited war. WW2was total war with civilians deliberately targeted by all sides. IF the Hitler had developed the atomic bomb he would have used it, so would Japan. It is also clear that without Nagasaki and Hiroshima the Japanese would have fought on and the casualties invading Japan would have been far far greater than either of those events. The atomic bombs were not an atrocity, it was industrial no holds barred warfare, the best way to kill an enemy is from a distance preferably without giving them a chance to shoot back we-as in the west happen to be very good at it. Being nice in war is ludicrous.
Which is one reason the idea that Islamic terrorists will take over is laughable. They have no chance whatsoever. In a free country to justify attacking another you need to create an enemy because free people do not just do what they are told. They need to engender a climate of fear to do what they want and shut up those who would question-shoving them in to concentration camps won't work so make it socially acceptable and unpatriotic to disagree.
If you want to look at how hitler got power despite only having around than a third of the vote in 1933 it makes fascinating study. One of the reasons Germany has proportional representation imposed on it after ww2 was to prevent a similar thing happening again. because it prevents a minority party-in terms of it's share of the vote-being able to get control by having the majority of the seats in the reischsatg and thus taking power despite most not supporting it.
Terrorists do not represent nation states. The very fact they have to act covertly and use terror tactics should tell you that. Conventional warfare doesn't work. If the US had gone in to Afghanistan and got Osama Bin Laden it might have stopped it cold but instead 911 was used as an excuse to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 911 and was no longer a threat to its neighbours, best let the Iraqis sort out their own problems instead Osama is a folk hero and fundamentalists get more and more support as they are seen as defending Islam against Western aggression.
Sooner or later Israel will have to take steps to remove terrorists, not by open warfare but by addressing the reasons they get support in their populations. All they have done is ensure another generation if warfare in Lebanon and the west stood by and watched. Any moral high ground was lost a long time ago.
You can only make peace with the one you are fighting. Or you completely destroy them which clearly Israel can't and turning them in to a resistance movement is a tactic that will not work.
It's a truism, I think, that those who do not study what has gone before are forever doomed to make the same mistakes. Trust me I'm a politician is one lesson we never learn.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: you need better sources. like the pilot who shot the jet down.
http://users.rcn.com/lana.interport/link/colonel.html
200 meters is far less than a mile. far less.
At the point at which he's defecting and requesting pollitical asylum I'd suggest that his testamony is not totally reliable.
http://users.rcn.com/lana.interport/link/colonel.html
200 meters is far less than a mile. far less.
At the point at which he's defecting and requesting pollitical asylum I'd suggest that his testamony is not totally reliable.
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anastrophe
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
gmc wrote: Stiil must have had good eyesight to see the numbers in the dark. No night vision goggles in those days.
there were indeed night vision goggles in those days. but it's immaterial, as the pilot never mentioned any use of them.
most aircraft keep their identifying numbers illuminated on the fuselage during night flight. but even that is immaterial, as the pilot doesn't suggest that the identifying numbers were an issue - from 200 yards away, it was clearly apparent that it was a 747, as he himself stated, which cannot possibly be mistaken for RC-135.
there were indeed night vision goggles in those days. but it's immaterial, as the pilot never mentioned any use of them.
most aircraft keep their identifying numbers illuminated on the fuselage during night flight. but even that is immaterial, as the pilot doesn't suggest that the identifying numbers were an issue - from 200 yards away, it was clearly apparent that it was a 747, as he himself stated, which cannot possibly be mistaken for RC-135.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Bryn Mawr wrote: At the point at which he's defecting and requesting pollitical asylum I'd suggest that his testamony is not totally reliable.
can you provide a reference? i can find no citations that colonel osipovich defected or even sought to defect.
can you provide a reference? i can find no citations that colonel osipovich defected or even sought to defect.
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500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
anastrophe wrote: can you provide a reference? i can find no citations that colonel osipovich defected or even sought to defect.
With apologies, the defector giving testamony was Gordievskiy, one on the intelligence officers involved.
With apologies, the defector giving testamony was Gordievskiy, one on the intelligence officers involved.
500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground
Here we go, an update on why the invasion of Lebanon last year was so protracted.A former top American diplomat says the US deliberately resisted calls for a immediate ceasefire during the conflict in Lebanon in the summer of 2006. Former ambassador to the UN John Bolton told the BBC that before any ceasefire Washington wanted Israel to eliminate Hezbollah's military capability.
Mr Bolton said an early ceasefire would have been "dangerous and misguided". He said the US decided to join efforts to end the conflict only when it was clear Israel's campaign wasn't working.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 479377.stm
So, no surprises there then.
Mr Bolton said an early ceasefire would have been "dangerous and misguided". He said the US decided to join efforts to end the conflict only when it was clear Israel's campaign wasn't working.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 479377.stm
So, no surprises there then.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.