Should suicide be legal?

weber · Post by **weber** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:20 pm

What exactly would happen if suicide were declared illegal. I can't come up with an answer anywhere in my head.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:54 pm

i have a feeling that it would mean less almost suicides and more succeeding.:-1

Casey Morgan · Post by **Casey Morgan** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:23 pm

I don't know about that Guppy. If my experience is anything like most people's my decision to kill myself wasn't affected one bit by whether or not it was legal. I did take interpersonal relationships into account but never the law/government. As far as more people succeeding if suicide was legal, I rather doubt it. I tend to think that failed suicide attempts are either one's attempt on some level to not really go through with it, or they misjudged something (the dosage, the strength of the rope, etc.)

There might actually be less suicides if it was legal. Part of the problem with being suicidal is that being a taboo and "illegal" subject people are much less likely to talk openly to others about those thoughts and feelings beforehand. The way things are right now feeling suicidal and "knowing that you aren't supposed to feel that way" just makes you feel worse about yourself.

This is all based on my own experiences though, so YMMV.

I thought you folks might get a chuckle out of this. Back when I went on Zoloft (1992) it was so new that my doctor filled my prescription from the free samples she had been given by the company that made it. She didn't want me to go from pharmacy to pharmacy trying to find one that actually had Zoloft.

weber · Post by **weber** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:19 pm

guppy wrote: i have a feeling that it would mean less almost suicides and more succeeding.:-1

No, I meant what does the government of whoever do to make suicide illegal. What would happen to a person who tried and failed if it was illegal?? I just don't get it.

I think that people who try to, or do, commit suicide are not in their right minds. They can't be. No one in their right mind would say "oh well, I am not too happy so I think I will just go blow my brains out". I think their thoughts are more along the lines of "I'm no good and everyone will be better off without me".

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:21 pm

or they are thinking "i cant take it anymore" i have to end the pain one way or another......................

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:25 pm

Casey Morgan wrote: I don't know about that Guppy. If my experience is anything like most people's my decision to kill myself wasn't affected one bit by whether or not it was legal. I did take interpersonal relationships into account but never the law/government. As far as more people succeeding if suicide was legal, I rather doubt it. I tend to think that failed suicide attempts are either one's attempt on some level to not really go through with it, or they misjudged something (the dosage, the strength of the rope, etc.)

There might actually be less suicides if it was legal. Part of the problem with being suicidal is that being a taboo and "illegal" subject people are much less likely to talk openly to others about those thoughts and feelings beforehand. The way things are right now feeling suicidal and "knowing that you aren't supposed to feel that way" just makes you feel worse about yourself.

This is all based on my own experiences though, so YMMV.

I thought you folks might get a chuckle out of this. Back when I went on Zoloft (1992) it was so new that my doctor filled my prescription from the free samples she had been given by the company that made it. She didn't want me to go from pharmacy to pharmacy trying to find one that actually had Zoloft.

Casey Morgan. thanks for sharing what is very personal to you i am sure. i feel honored that u did. you are , of course, right. even when people decide to kill someone i am pretty sure they aren't thinking about jail time at the moment. so why would someone who is suicidal care or even consider the fall out of that either if they should fail. i am very glad that you are stil here among us casey. does the zolft still work for you?

G-man · Post by **G-man** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:32 pm

That's a really tough question... part of me says absolutely not... but then we can't bear to see someone or something suffer when they're only prolonging their inevitable departure... I say no, however.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:40 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: I am quite surprised by some of the responses here - disgusted, even - at some

of the assumptions made. Having been through the mill myself, I have voted "no".

Disgusted? How so, Bill? What assumptions? I would be interested in your viewpoint.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:24 am

RedGlitter wrote: Disgusted? How so, Bill? What assumptions? I would be interested in your viewpoint.

As would I.

Casey Morgan · Post by **Casey Morgan** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:27 am

guppy wrote: Casey Morgan. thanks for sharing what is very personal to you i am sure. i feel honored that u did. you are , of course, right. even when people decide to kill someone i am pretty sure they aren't thinking about jail time at the moment. so why would someone who is suicidal care or even consider the fall out of that either if they should fail. i am very glad that you are stil here among us casey. does the zolft still work for you?

Aw, thanks Guppy. I can't remember when I came off the Zoloft exactly, but it was only a year or les that I was on it. When I had problems a few years later they decided to hold off on meds and see if therapy alone would work. It did, mostly because the circumstancs were different.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:48 am

Casey

Your signature ROCKS! :guitarist

Casey Morgan · Post by **Casey Morgan** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:50 am

Thanks Cher. That signature is kind of the way I feel, the beauty is on the inside.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:12 am

Casey Morgan wrote: Thanks Cher. That signature is kind of the way I feel, the beauty is on the inside.

That's just lovely

Truly :-6

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Morgan

Thanks Cher. That signature is kind of the way I feel, the beauty is on the inside.
That's just lovely

Truly

When lovely is not inside but in there is ugly and hurting and uncertaintly, that is when suicide happens and I don't know how anybody can make it legal or illegal.

Euthanasia, assisted suicide, is a different thing. I don't see how they can make it legal or illegal for the person wishing to die, but they can make it legal or illegal for the assisting person.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:54 am

guppy wrote: bill Sikes. would you mind going into more detail with your remarks. just excactly what part of this thread and to whom are you referring?

Sorry, I've thought about this for some time. I cannot explain, not because I

cannnot explain, but because I feel I should not. It's all a bit dodgy. Suffice

to say I slightly agree with some of the things that H. has said.

eyesopen · Post by **eyesopen** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:05 pm

I did'nt actually know it was illegal (is it in the uk??) call me stupid. However i do not think it should be illegal a persons right to end there own life is there own it must be up to them to debate the moral, ethical, and social issues surely???

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:56 pm

If abortion is legal, suicide should be legal. I don't believe in a god that punishes you for taking your own life. If I had some terrible illness that wasn't going to be cured in my lifetime, you better believe I'm ending it before I can't.

I work in a nursing home, and every day I think to myself, "god, I would've killed myself long before my Alzheimer's got that bad," etc. etc. Yeah, it's a morbid way to think, but it's reality.

As for suicide committed by people who are highly distressed and just don't see any way out, I feel for those people, and I would encourage every one considering suicide to realize that, if you don't have a terminal illness, life CAN be better with effort. So, suicide, in a sense, can be a lazy way out as well. It's all case by case, really. But, in the end, I'm definitely not going to tell someone what to do with their life/body. As far as I'm concerned, I think all criminally minded people should kill themselves and stop wasting our tax dollars and time.

Yes, it's horrible to say, but suicide is just another form of population control. Yes, it's terrible, and I have my tail between my legs just expecting to be slammed for saying that.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:24 pm

magenta flame;595057 wrote: Okay I don't mind throwing a spanner among the pigeons.

Eight year old child has a terminal desease. won't see out the year ....If suicide/ euthanasia is legal what is to done about the child .........are the parents allowed to cut that childs life short because of the suffereing before it's death? Do they assist the child to commit suicde? what if the child is Eleven? or fifteen?

If my child was in such agony and begging me "Mummy please stop the pain and end this for me" and all specialist had told me there was no hope - then as much as it hurts me to say - I would seriously have to look at this for him/her :-1 I hope I don't upset anyone by saying this - but I just don't think I could ignore my child.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:29 pm

When my Mum was dying in hospital - they knew she was not going to survive - but still put her on life support - I remember (I was only 10 years) crying to the doctors "Please just let my Mummy go"

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:31 pm

magenta flame;595057 wrote: Okay I don't mind throwing a spanner among the pigeons.

Eight year old child has a terminal desease. won't see out the year ....If suicide/ euthanasia is legal what is to done about the child .........are the parents allowed to cut that childs life short because of the suffereing before it's death? Do they assist the child to commit suicde? what if the child is Eleven? or fifteen?

A dog has a tumour over his back legs as well as severe arthritis. He cannot get to his feet and, eventually, he cannot stand and lies in his own urine and sh!t wanting to die. Would you keep him alive or would you put him out of his misery?

Having been there. I put him down and cried because we'd been on the boat and I left it too long.

If you'd do that kindness for a dog, why refuse it to a person in a similar circumstance?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:41 pm

magenta flame;595069 wrote: Because it's a dog and not a human being . would you put your own child down because it was suffering?

From what angle are you coming from on this one, Magenta?

You'd let the kid suffer untold terminal agony because...why?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:53 pm

magenta flame;595069 wrote: Because it's a dog and not a human being . would you put your own child down because it was suffering?

If the suffering was bad enough with no hope of remission then yes - I could not be so cruel as to not do so.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:56 pm

Bryn Mawr;595084 wrote: If the suffering was bad enough with no hope of remission then yes - I could not be so cruel as to not do so.

How right you are - we had to do this for 2 of our 4 dogs - even though I cried for weeks I knew it was the right thing to do - they gave us so much love during their lives - how could we let them down at the end

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:49 pm

magenta flame;595057 wrote: Okay I don't mind throwing a spanner among the pigeons.

Eight year old child has a terminal desease. won't see out the year ....If suicide/ euthanasia is legal what is to done about the child .........are the parents allowed to cut that childs life short because of the suffereing before it's death? Do they assist the child to commit suicde? what if the child is Eleven? or fifteen?

If the child won't see out the year because of their illness and their suffering would be immense towards the end, what does their age matter? They are still going to die before the age of nine or ten. If the child wants to end it, why shouldn't the parents take that into account? To me, it seems like a selfish thing to keep someone alive even though they've expressed, in all serious, that they'd like to "get on with it", so to speak. I would certainly not allow my child to suffer when there's nothing else that could be done but wait for a drawn-out death.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:06 pm

magenta flame;595057 wrote: Okay I don't mind throwing a spanner among the pigeons.

Eight year old child has a terminal desease. won't see out the year ....If suicide/ euthanasia is legal what is to done about the child .........are the parents allowed to cut that childs life short because of the suffereing before it's death? Do they assist the child to commit suicde? what if the child is Eleven? or fifteen?

If only they could. It's in this sick world that we are expected to stand by and "let God do it" even as the morphine stops working, because we are such a damned selfish lot and couldn't bear the brunt of the responsibility for taking out our own flesh and blood due to their pain or discomfort because we couldn't live with the guilt.

What if the person is 11 or 15? Suffering knows no age. What difference does it make? Have you not a responsibility to your child, this being you helped to create? When he falls down you put a band-aid on his knee and you make sure he gets all his vaccines so he doesn't get sick and die, but when he can't swallow his own spit or when there are no more drugs to stop his pain, do you abandon him because life is "precious?"

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:12 pm

RedGlitter;595125 wrote: If only they could. It's in this sick world that we are expected to stand by and "let God do it" even as the morphine stops working, because we are such a damned selfish lot and couldn't bear the brunt of the responsibility for taking out our own flesh and blood due to their pain or discomfort because we couldn't live with the guilt.

What if the person is 11 or 15? Suffering knows no age. What difference does it make? Have you not a responsibility to your child, this being you helped to create? When he falls down you put a band-aid on his knee and you make sure he gets all his vaccines so he doesn't get sick and die, but when he can't swallow his own spit or when there are no more drugs to stop his pain, do you abandon him because life is "precious?"

Everything about your post makes absolute sense. I agree completely. And yes, it's such a selfish thing to not let someone go because of our own fears of death. Death is not evil.

Anyway... just applauding your post! :-6

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:46 pm

:-6

aristotle · Post by **aristotle** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:06 pm

Lulu2;393511 wrote: Of course, Guppy. And what a final kindness that is.

My uncle George had Parkinson's disease for decades and had almost no motor control whatsoever. My aunt Lucille tended him until she died and after that, he was put into a convalescent home. He had to be tied into his chair/bed or he'd fall out. This disease robs you of your body but leaves the mind intact.

Every time I'd visit he'd look me right in the eye and say "HELP ME DIE." I'll tell you the truth....I thought about it. I spoke with friends who were nurses and they both said the same thing..."Don't do it because they'll autopsy him and come after you."

I was afraid and I did nothing. Luckily for him, he only lived a few more months in that horrible condition.

You probably know what I think about people who're against assisted suicide. They've obviously never lived in my uncle George's condition! :rolleyes:

I agree with you. for this reason, the answer is yes

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:17 pm

magenta flame;595195 wrote: well guys if you want to put children out of there misery then off you go to the hospitals and go through all the wards. the fact that you would class a child in the same catagory as a dog makes me sick to my stomach .

Ok, you know I'm going to bump heads with you on this one. You probably know by now that I don't hold humans over animals and I think your stance is way off base but for the thread's sake, let's not go there. Let me just turn it around a little and point out that in your line of thinking, we are able to treat the dog in a better, more humane manner than we are the human. Do you find the irony in this?

So your afraid of suffering and death? It's part of life I'm afraid and until you see these terminally ill children you have no right to justify even thinking such a thing.

some of these children are at camps weeks before they die and are in constant pain but to save you from looking on them you'd put them out of their misery, because YOU can't handle THEIR suffering. Give me one example of a child wanting to be euthanised?

No. I'm not afraid of suffering or death and I've been around both all my life. I just don't see any need to prolong it when we have the option to let a person go with dignity and compassion at THEIR behest.

There is a wide world between being unable to handle another's suffering and being the SOB who lets it happen because they're too selfish to make the call. Where do you derive the idea that this is so wrong? I see no source yet.

Watching a dog die or making such a decision as to euthanise it is by any stretch of the imagination NOT the same as a human being. I find some of your remarks quite Bazzaar. I've had to watch both and I can tell you right now they are not the same.

I take the opposite view. Watching life ebb from either is wrenching. I'm not sure what it is you find so bizarre about it. I was taught that ALL life matters. It doesn't matter if it's grandma or a dead dog on the roadside. Either one is somebody's child. I'd doubt God puts a different value on either.

Jamesblonde · Post by **Jamesblonde** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:22 am

RedGlitter;392623 wrote:

What do you think?

What are you going to do, jail the corpse or fine the relatives?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:31 am

Jamesblonde;595218 wrote: What are you going to do, jail the corpse or fine the relatives?

I admit my title was misworded at best but it's only a crime if you get caught.

Anyway, neither. But if you don't do it right it's on you.

Hey...aren't you from R&R?....

Jamesblonde · Post by **Jamesblonde** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:36 am

If one can actually be for somewhere that only exists as the digital manifestation of an abstract concept then I guess I am from R-R as this is where I was before here.

Anyway are you asking if suicide is immoral then?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:42 am

No. Not immoral. In my state if you survive, it's a crime. I think that's ridiculous. When I posted that some time ago that's what was on my mind. But the thread did turn into a moral/immoral discussion and that's probably better.

So sure...is it immoral?

Jamesblonde · Post by **Jamesblonde** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:45 am

RedGlitter;595222 wrote: So sure...is it immoral?

Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. I guess the circumstances of suicide differ from case to case. It seems a pretty stupid thing to make illegal because I don't think that it is much of a deterrent and nor does it help anyone.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:57 pm

magenta flame;595195 wrote: well guys if you want to put children out of there misery then off you go to the hospitals and go through all the wards. the fact that you would class a child in the same catagory as a dog makes me sick to my stomach .

So your afraid of suffering and death? It's part of life I'm afraid and until you see these terminally ill children you have no right to justify even thinking such a thing.

some of these children are at camps weeks before they die and are in constant pain but to save you from looking on them you'd put them out of their misery, because YOU can't handle THEIR suffering. Give me one example of a child wanting to be euthanised?

Watching a dog die or making such a decision as to euthanise it is by any stretch of the imagination NOT the same as a human being. I find some of your remarks quite Bazzaar. I've had to watch both and I can tell you right now they are not the same.

First of all, why isn't a dog's life valuable? You seem to be the kind of person who would think of ALL life as valuable, so why not think human life and animal life are equivalent? Life is life, regardless of whether the heart beating is a dog's, elephant's, human's, whatever. You know, now that I think of it, animals have a much more sophisticated approach to dying. Take a dog. When it knows it's going to die, it'll usually run away and die in peace, alone. Animals don't believe in long, drawn-out processes of death.

As you said, suffering AND death is a part of life. So why just allow the suffering? Allow the death of a child/adult who WISHES to die. When did we decide to take over someone's free will simply because they're ill. They're sick, NOT invisible or without a voice to shout their wishes. By the way, the question isn't whether or not WE can handle their suffering. The question is whether or not THEY can handle their suffering. And if they choose not to suffer anymore, who the hell are you, or anyone, to take that choice away from them?

Some of the remarks here may be bizarre to you, but have an open mind and look at it with logic and rationality, not just red hot emotion. And if you don't agree, then don't. As it is someone's choice with a terminal illness to end their life, it is your choice to agree or not.

Do not take the rights away from others simply because you would not choose their path.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:02 pm

Heh, this whole debate reminded me of an experience. I believe a lot of what Buddhism has to say, so I've gone to see a lot of monks speak publicly. One of the topics was "Death and Dying." The audience was quite mixed. There were long-time Buddhists, and "laymen."

So the monk speaks for a little while. Then he takes questions from the audience. This middle-aged man raises his hand and asks him, "What do you think about someone going through chemotherapy and all these different treatments, even if they didn't stand much of a chance of surviving their illness?"

The monk looked at him with light-heartedness and compassion and said, "Just die."

Now to some who haven't studied Buddhism, that sounds awful callous and simplistic. But, to me, it holds tremendous truth. We cling so tightly to life but we all know we're going to die in the end, somehow, somewhere. Sometimes life deserves a fight for survival. And sometimes we should "just die." I would simply "just die" if I had a terminal illness and would definitely understand anyone else who chose to as well.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:19 pm

RedGlitter;392623 wrote: I am curious what you all think about this...?

Do you feel an individual owns his life? Does God own the person's life? Is suicide a crime against God? A crime against society? Not a crime at all?

What do you think?

This is my first poll so I hope I'm doing it correctly.

It doesn't matter. If someone takes their own life how can the law punish them, they are after all, dead. I mention this because the title of your post is "Should Suicide Be Legal" As for a crime against God. I'll let the religious scholars wrestle with that. Society??? Who really cares and how could society punish the dead?

Maybe you mean "Mercy Killing" or death by other than your own hand.

aristotle · Post by **aristotle** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:10 pm

laneybug;595733 wrote: Heh, this whole debate reminded me of an experience. I believe a lot of what Buddhism has to say, so I've gone to see a lot of monks speak publicly. One of the topics was "Death and Dying." The audience was quite mixed. There were long-time Buddhists, and "laymen."

So the monk speaks for a little while. Then he takes questions from the audience. This middle-aged man raises his hand and asks him, "What do you think about someone going through chemotherapy and all these different treatments, even if they didn't stand much of a chance of surviving their illness?"

The monk looked at him with light-heartedness and compassion and said, "Just die."

Now to some who haven't studied Buddhism, that sounds awful callous and simplistic. But, to me, it holds tremendous truth. We cling so tightly to life but we all know we're going to die in the end, somehow, somewhere. Sometimes life deserves a fight for survival. And sometimes we should "just die." I would simply "just die" if I had a terminal illness and would definitely understand anyone else who chose to as well.

QFT, especially terminal illness, with someone who is quite old and has decided for themselves.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:40 pm

I went to change the title of this thread to better fit what we're talking about so people wouldn't get hung up on my rotten semantics but it was no longer an option.

Jamesblonde · Post by **Jamesblonde** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:12 am

I know of a few French resistance members who suicided rather than revealing the names of their associates to the Gestapo, this seems to be a brave choice to me and one which should be considered by those who would generalize.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:59 pm

magenta flame;595844 wrote: well suicide isn't illegal where I live. It's a mental /health problem. Like drugs, if you OD and survive it's a health problem rather than a legal problem.

Which is stupid in my opinion because if authorities are not alerted (apparently because it's none of their business) then they can't possibly prevent it.

As for teenagers OD-ing because it's not a police issue they don't see it as a serious problem.

All I can say is... one day, when you grow up all big and tall, you'll realize that people have the right to live and die how they choose.

Oh, and I really thought you'd be up to tackling my previous post I wrote to you. :-3

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:53 pm

magenta flame;596435 wrote: Nope missed it I'll go look

Thanks. I'd really like to read what you have to say about it. I'm certainly not above hearing out others. And, since our opinions are practically opposite, it could make for some interesting conversation.