Love your enemies

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:40 pm

As a christian, we are instructed to love our enemies. To turn the other cheek. And to love those that hate and persecute you because of your faith.

Love is supposed to be more powerful than hate.

My question for discussion is this;

How do you love a foaming at the mouth person of radical islamic idealism, whilst he is doing everything in his power to blow you up, kidnap and chop off your head, and just plain kill you any way he can manage?

And who is the martyr? You the Christian, or the islamic guy who blows himself up in the process of killing you?

And how can love overcome this?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:44 pm

Raven wrote: As a christian, we are instructed to love our enemies. To turn the other cheek. And to love those that hate and persecute you because of your faith.

Love is supposed to be more powerful than hate.

My question for discussion is this;

How do you love a foaming at the mouth person of radical islamic idealism, whilst he is doing everything in his power to blow you up, kidnap and chop off your head, and just plain kill you any way he can manage?

And who is the martyr? You the Christian, or the islamic guy who blows himself up in the process of killing you?

And how can love overcome this?

One can protect themselve and even kill if necessary without hating. Like anything else it is not what you do but the intention with which you do it..

Then again I'm not a relgious Christian.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:46 pm

But the radical idealist is commiting the act for love of his or her God. Of that I am sure. Should I love this enemy? No, I do not think I can. Pity maybe, or the misguided beliefs, but I do not think I could see my way clear to love this person.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:51 pm

But as christians we are commanded to love even unto death. It's a quandry isnt it?

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:53 pm

Raven wrote: But as christians we are commanded to love even unto death. It's a quandry isnt it?

Yes it is. Maybe it is a love the person, hate the action kind of thing?

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:59 pm

With me in dire need of anger management, ESPECIALLY when confronted with what I believe is wrong, I'm having big trouble with this one, let me tell you!

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:00 pm

Raven wrote: With me in dire need of anger management, ESPECIALLY when confronted with what I believe is wrong, I'm having big trouble with this one, let me tell you!

If you believe Christianity means you have to let someone kill you maybe you question that?

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:04 pm

Of course I question it! I ask why over just about everything! Doesnt mean I dont believe it to be true though.

I do believe love conquers all.

What I would like to know is how can we?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:06 pm

Raven wrote: Of course I question it! I ask why over just about everything! Doesnt mean I dont believe it to be true though.

I do believe love conquers all.

What I would like to know is how can we?

How does not letting someone hurt you = not love??

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:14 pm

Love thy enemy my ***

Refer to my latest update on the Montreal shooting, you tell me how ever can anyone love a man who injures an innocent then returns to her and pumps in 2 mor bullets to killer, and claims...."I am going to die today" Do you think his family can forgive and go on to love him.... I know I could not.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:18 pm

Exactly. But the jews in Jesus' time, reacted the same way to the romans. But reacting that way is hating. How can love overcome this? And what do they mean by love? It cant be the squishy emotion. It must involve some form of action.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:30 pm

Raven wrote: Exactly. But the jews in Jesus' time, reacted the same way to the romans. But reacting that way is hating. How can love overcome this? And what do they mean by love? It cant be the squishy emotion. It must involve some form of action.

can't you just do what you need to do to protect yourself without the hating?

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:36 pm

when you hold grudges and have an active feeling of hatred towards someone then you are expending time and energy on them. you are giving them power over you. to love your enemies means to let the hate go. not nessesarily to lay down and get run over. just dont study them at all. walk away emotionally. imho

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:36 pm

You are missing my point methinks. I am not talking about evading a direct action. I am talking about families and people and a religion as a whole affected by these wanton acts of pure hate.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:38 pm

guppy wrote: when you hold grudges and have an active feeling of hatred towards someone then you are expending time and energy on them. you are giving them power over you. to love your enemies means to let the hate go. not nessesarily to lay down and get run over. just dont study them at all. walk away emotionally. imho
If it was so easy to do then why arent we as christians doing just that?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:38 pm

Raven wrote: You are missing my point methinks. I am not talking about evading a direct action. I am talking about families and people and a religion as a whole affected by these wanton acts of pure hate.

can you explain that Raven, i thought you wer talking about actions as well??

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:43 pm

cluck cluck..........

ooops..........wrong thread..............zinky...................:wah:

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:45 pm

Right. Lets see if I can explain myself a little better here.

collectively, as a whole, how can we overcome this unwarranted hate, flung at us by acts of love? Such as commanded in the bible?

I'm not personally confused over the issue, but just thought it would be a good topic of discussion.

Like I said earlier, if love is more powerful than hate, then how can we overcome it without resorting to the same means as our enemy?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:45 pm

I am not christian either, so there's my disclaimer.

That said, I feel there is something extremely wrong about the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" concepts.

Supposedly when you die of a crime, you become aware from your vantage point, the reason why you were killed and what that person was thinking when he did it. You forgive your killer and move on. The killer meanwhile, when he dies and goes to the afterlife, there is essentially a big "time out" where he must sit and ponder what he's done. There is no hell, no punishment, no judgement from others and still a love from God for this killer.

This comes from "Lessons from the Light" by George Anderson, where spirits of the dead explain to him what the afterlife is. I wonder if this is where the christian concept comes from.

Personally I can understand it but I don't buy it. And I don't want to. I want to see punishment and hell for rapists/killers/molesters/animal harmers.

As a kid, I was bullied and picked on constantly. My mom always said to turn the other cheek. My dad said beat hell out of 'em and defend yourself. I took Mom's advice for years. Kids dumped lunch on me, hit me, spit on me and my food, called me names, insulted me, and still I did nothing. I believed that bs about "not stooping to their level." Finally I started to defend myself. And it worked! I gained respect and people left me alone. Stopped abusing me.

I don't believe in bullying people or going out of your way to harm someone when ignoring them will work. But I do not believe the meek will inherit the earth or that I need to "love" my enemy as God loves me or loves him because I am not God. I don't believe I was created in his image and I don't believe I need to try and do things as God would do them. God is God. I am a mortal imperfect human and deliberately made that way.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:48 pm

Raven wrote: Right. Lets see if I can explain myself a little better here.

collectively, as a whole, how can we overcome this unwarranted hate, flung at us by acts of love? Such as commanded in the bible?

I'm not personally confused over the issue, but just thought it would be a good topic of discussion.

Like I said earlier, if love is more powerful than hate, then how can we overcome it without resorting to the same means as our enemy?

Oh I see, well if everyone responds with love it doesn't matter what they are doing action wise...the problem is people almost never act solely out of love, doesn't matter whether their Christian, Muslim or atheist.. Conversly just doing something "nice" doesn't make it loving, for example what if you are just doing it for attention?

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:56 pm

RedGlitter wrote: I am not christian either, so there's my disclaimer.

That said, I feel there is something extremely wrong about the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" concepts.

Supposedly when you die of a crime, you become aware from your vantage point, the reason why you were killed and what that person was thinking when he did it. You forgive your killer and move on. The killer meanwhile, when he dies and goes to the afterlife, there is essentially a big "time out" where he must sit and ponder what he's done. There is no hell, no punishment, no judgement from others and still a love from God for this killer.

This comes from "Lessons from the Light" by George Anderson, where spirits of the dead explain to him what the afterlife is. I wonder if this is where the christian concept comes from.

Personally I can understand it but I don't buy it. And I don't want to. I want to see punishment and hell for rapists/killers/molesters/animal harmers.

As a kid, I was bullied and picked on constantly. My mom always said to turn the other cheek. My dad said beat hell out of 'em and defend yourself. I took Mom's advice for years. Kids dumped lunch on me, hit me, spit on me and my food, called me names, insulted me, and still I did nothing. I believed that bs about "not stooping to their level." Finally I started to defend myself. And it worked! I gained respect and people left me alone. Stopped abusing me.

I don't believe in bullying people or going out of your way to harm someone when ignoring them will work. But I do not believe the meek will inherit the earth or that I need to "love" my enemy as God loves me or loves him because I am not God. I don't believe I was created in his image and I don't believe I need to try and do things as God would do them. God is God. I am a mortal imperfect human and deliberately made that way.
Sorry about that. I was actually posing my questions to folks with a good understanding of christianity.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:19 pm

That was rather pretentious. I think what you might well have said is "a common unchallenged view" of christianity.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:24 pm

Yes, we were told to turn the other cheek and love our enemies. However, God does not expect us to be a door mat. We are indeed allowed to defend ourselves. We have every right to do so.

God never promised us an easy journey but He did promise to see us through in one way or another.

Of course loving those who would destroy you is difficult if at times not impossible. That is where we need to rely on God for Guidance.

The Bible has often said things in the extreme to make a point. It is a goal to aim for. That is part of the style of writing. We must apply reason and common sense to our reading. Killing in self defense is quite acceptable. One is allowed to use reasonable force to protect oneself even to killing if necessary.

This does not negate love in any way. One can, in all honesty, feel sorry or pity for someone. One can feel for the pain they must be in to take such drastic measures without being a door mat. God's love is unconditional and we are required to work towards that but being human we can never really attain that. In Jesus we see a living example of that love. We also see righteous anger in the overturning of the tables in the temple.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:27 pm

RedGlitter wrote: That was rather pretentious. I think what you might well have said is "a common unchallenged view" of christianity.
Nope. Not what I meant at all. And I usually dont have a problem saying exactly what I mean.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:28 pm

Raven wrote: But as christians we are commanded to love even unto death. It's a quandry isnt it?

I shall jump in here and then read the replies.

Murder is forbidden in God's eyes. It is therefore right to restrain someone from going against God's will in this respect. But we should use the power of love to try and put them on the right track.

Neither should we hang around to be killed. Run, then pray for the person's soul. Prayer with love is very powerful. Remembering always that we don't command God, but ask that it is His Will.

The person who wants to kill is very very ill. Loving concern is the best way to reflect upon this person's illness while condemning not the person, but the acts he/she performs.:-4

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:35 pm

OpenMind wrote: I shall jump in here and then read the replies.

Murder is forbidden in God's eyes. It is therefore right to restrain someone from going against God's will in this respect. But we should use the power of love to try and put them on the right track.

Neither should we hang around to be killed. Run, then pray for the person's soul. Prayer with love is very powerful. Remembering always that we don't command God, but ask that it is His Will.

The person who wants to kill is very very ill. Loving concern is the best way to reflect upon this person's illness while condemning not the person, but the acts he/she performs.:-4
But whose God? Historically, christians invaded the middle east to pursue it's own 'holy war' which we call the crusades. We butchered and maimed all in the name of God as well as many other atrocities.

So, in light of our past, how can we deal with the current state of things? Maybe I should have put this in a political context?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:50 pm

There is only one God, the creator, the great spirit Allah. All are names for God. In fact one would probably find that God has a thousand names.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:05 pm

You think God wrote the Koran too?

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:07 pm

Raven wrote: But whose God? Historically, christians invaded the middle east to pursue it's own 'holy war' which we call the crusades. We butchered and maimed all in the name of God as well as many other atrocities.

So, in light of our past, how can we deal with the current state of things? Maybe I should have put this in a political context?

Maybe. You simply said the Christian God, and my reply was made in that context.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:14 pm

Raven:-6

Mohammed wrote the Qur'an. The Hebrew and Christian scriptures were written by many folks. Each is a reflection of their experiences of the divine.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:14 pm

LOL! I think you're the only one who has understood what I was talking about! This went pear shaped quick dangit!