Raven wrote: Bronwen, unfortunately the west has too many liberal 'peace not war' fanatics to allow a quick but sure conclusion to the terrorist problem.
Rave, this thread is progressing much faster than I can follow it, having only about an hour to post daily, but I don't want to leave your reply unanswered.
I am not a bloodthirsty person at all and I suspect that you are not either. There are really two issues here:
1. Islamic terrorism has as its STATED purpose to enslave you, me, our children, grandchildren and all of humanity under the yoke of Shariya law. There is no question about that, and the terrorist themselves are the first to admit it openly. They have committed acts of mass murder in the USA, the UK, and several other free and democratic European countries. ALL of these countries treasure their legacies of democracy and religious freedom, hence their slowness to respond. However, the terrorists are now on the brink of developing and/or acquiring nuclear weapons, it is a matter of months, not years, and sometime soon that process must be stopped DEAD. Hopefully that will not have to take the form of a defensive nuclear attack against the Islamic nations, but the bottom line remains, if it becomes a choice between losing our freedom and our way of life to Islamic jackals or stopping them with nuclear weapons, then they will be stopped. The alternative, Islamic slavery, is a non-starter.
2. The second issue is this WINGNUT who claims to be an American and posts ream after ream of the vilest anti-American, anti-Western, and anti-democratic garbage, and when challenged or questioned, simply ignores the challenges and continues to foul these forums. First of all, that defiles the intent of the forums. Members who come here for a forthright exchange of ideas shouldn't have to wade through all that. Secondly, criticizing the US government, often vociferously, is an American tradition going back to the earliest days of the country's independence. This character goes far beyond that, actively supporting and encouraging the enemies of both the USA specifically and world freedom in general. That is not dissent, that is disloyalty, people used to be hanged or shot for that, and, assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately. Freedom, including free political expression, is a wonderful thing, but using that freedom to actively aid and abet those who would destroy it is treason.
Just my few minutes worth in the short time I have to post today.
President Bush Speaks to UN
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: I am not a bloodthirsty person at all and I suspect that you are not either. There are really two issues here:
1. Islamic terrorism has as its STATED purpose to enslave you, me, our children, grandchildren and all of humanity under the yoke of Shariya law.What, were it true, is the importance of that? You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? Christianity had the same damned ambition for centuries and they never even got to be a majority, much less the only game in town. The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us all against, and his warnings are all coming home to roost with a vengeance. This "terrorism" of which you speak is a reaction to that, pure and simple. There's a cause and an effect. "Terrorism" isn't the cause.
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.
1. Islamic terrorism has as its STATED purpose to enslave you, me, our children, grandchildren and all of humanity under the yoke of Shariya law.What, were it true, is the importance of that? You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? Christianity had the same damned ambition for centuries and they never even got to be a majority, much less the only game in town. The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us all against, and his warnings are all coming home to roost with a vengeance. This "terrorism" of which you speak is a reaction to that, pure and simple. There's a cause and an effect. "Terrorism" isn't the cause.
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: What, were it true, is the inportance of that? You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? Christianity had the same damned ambition for centuries and they never even got to be a majority, much less the only game in town. The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us all against, and his warnings are all coming home to roost with a vengeance. This "terrorism" of which you speak is a reaction to that, pure and simple. There's a cause and an effect. "Terrorism" isn't the cause.
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.
I am considerably more worried about a terrorist attack by Islamic Fundamentalists than any threat from an imaginary Military Industrial Complex. How are the warnings coming home to roost?
I think you being very short sighted if you are not concerned Islams stated goal of world domination the world can change very quickly as we have seen.
People are obssessed watching the US for every miniscule mistake while the real abusers of numan rights in China, Iran, NK, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia go about their daily business of crushing people. If you and the rest of Europe and the joke called the UN spent as much time doing something about those places instead of your constant nit picking of America maybe some real progress could be made.
Who did the UN place in charge of disarming Hizbollah? Syria, what a travesty Koffi.
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.
I am considerably more worried about a terrorist attack by Islamic Fundamentalists than any threat from an imaginary Military Industrial Complex. How are the warnings coming home to roost?
I think you being very short sighted if you are not concerned Islams stated goal of world domination the world can change very quickly as we have seen.
People are obssessed watching the US for every miniscule mistake while the real abusers of numan rights in China, Iran, NK, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia go about their daily business of crushing people. If you and the rest of Europe and the joke called the UN spent as much time doing something about those places instead of your constant nit picking of America maybe some real progress could be made.
Who did the UN place in charge of disarming Hizbollah? Syria, what a travesty Koffi.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Raven wrote: Bronwen, unfortunately the west has too many liberal 'peace not war' fanatics to allow a quick but sure conclusion to the terrorist problem.
spot wrote: You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? ...The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex ..."Terrorism" isn't the cause.Raven, meet spot!
spot wrote: You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? ...The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex ..."Terrorism" isn't the cause.Raven, meet spot!
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: What, were it true, is the inportance of that? You know it can never happen, I know it can never happen - who anywhere thinks it can happen? Christianity had the same damned ambition for centuries and they never even got to be a majority, much less the only game in town. The danger facing the world is the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us all against, and his warnings are all coming home to roost with a vengeance. This "terrorism" of which you speak is a reaction to that, pure and simple. There's a cause and an effect. "Terrorism" isn't the cause.
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.spot, have you tried hitting yourself over the head with a heavy object? That might restore a connection with reality.
The reason it can never happen is that the freedom loving nations of the world will not allow it to happen. Let me put it another way, if it comes down to a choice between a nuclear ATTACK against the Islamic nations promoting terrorism in, say, September 2007 and a nuclear EXCHANGE with them in, say, March 2008, the free world is going to go with the ATTACK that will prevent the EXCHANGE. You may disapprove of that, you may prefer to sit there and wait for the ragheads to nuke you first, and Raven is correct, you will not be alone. I think, however, that R is INcorrect in stating that there are too many of you to allow the free world to defend itself. I really think that you are outnumbered, by a wide margin.
My 'fellow-poster', as you call him, has claimed on this very forum, among other equally outrageous bits of nonsense, that the democratic nations of Europe are already in the process of abandoning and/or dismantling their democratic institutions in order to surrender to, or fall in behind, Islamic terrorism. Do you seriously believe such hogwash is worthy of respect?
And by the way, none of those 'insulting' words or phrases of mine are 'bloodthirsty'. You wanna see 'bloodthirsty'? The scumbags who bombed London's Underground, who murdered thousands in the USA and continue to terrorize the entire free world are bloodthirsty.
Who has 'sunk lower', spot, them or those of us who, unlike yourself, recognize the threat?
Just look at the words you use before you say you're "not a bloodthirsty person at all", you're becoming difficult to read much less respond to these last few months. "disordered personality", "diseased mind" - this of a fellow poster, mind, not a Muslim cleric - "tinpot" "ragheaded" "i-mam" "moo-lah" - the words are deliberate insults, Bronwen. We can surely discuss these issues without sinking so low.spot, have you tried hitting yourself over the head with a heavy object? That might restore a connection with reality.
The reason it can never happen is that the freedom loving nations of the world will not allow it to happen. Let me put it another way, if it comes down to a choice between a nuclear ATTACK against the Islamic nations promoting terrorism in, say, September 2007 and a nuclear EXCHANGE with them in, say, March 2008, the free world is going to go with the ATTACK that will prevent the EXCHANGE. You may disapprove of that, you may prefer to sit there and wait for the ragheads to nuke you first, and Raven is correct, you will not be alone. I think, however, that R is INcorrect in stating that there are too many of you to allow the free world to defend itself. I really think that you are outnumbered, by a wide margin.
My 'fellow-poster', as you call him, has claimed on this very forum, among other equally outrageous bits of nonsense, that the democratic nations of Europe are already in the process of abandoning and/or dismantling their democratic institutions in order to surrender to, or fall in behind, Islamic terrorism. Do you seriously believe such hogwash is worthy of respect?
And by the way, none of those 'insulting' words or phrases of mine are 'bloodthirsty'. You wanna see 'bloodthirsty'? The scumbags who bombed London's Underground, who murdered thousands in the USA and continue to terrorize the entire free world are bloodthirsty.
Who has 'sunk lower', spot, them or those of us who, unlike yourself, recognize the threat?
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote:
1. Islamic terrorism has as its STATED purpose to enslave you, me, our children, grandchildren and all of humanity under the yoke of Shariya law.[citation needed] There is no question about that, and the terrorist themselves are the first to admit it openly. [citation needed] They have committed acts of mass murder in the USA, the UK, and several other free and democratic European countries. [citation needed] ALL of these countries treasure their legacies of democracy and religious freedom, hence their slowness to respond. However, the terrorists are now on the brink of developing and/or acquiring nuclear weapons, it is a matter of months, not years, and sometime soon that process must be stopped DEAD.[citation needed] Hopefully that will not have to take the form of a defensive nuclear attack against the Islamic nations, but the bottom line remains, if it becomes a choice between losing our freedom and our way of life to Islamic jackals or stopping them with nuclear weapons, then they will be stopped. The alternative, Islamic slavery, is a non-starter.
There are a few citations needed as noted. I've not been aware that jackals have religious behaviour. Perhaps you mean "people" ie) human beings? Your predictions are just that. Do you have credentials as a political analyst? or even a psychic?
2. The second issue is this WINGNUT who claims to be an American and posts ream after ream of the vilest anti-American, anti-Western, and anti-democratic garbage, and when challenged or questioned, simply ignores the challenges and continues to foul these forums. First of all, that defiles the intent of the forums. Members who come here for a forthright exchange of ideas shouldn't have to wade through all that. Secondly, criticizing the US government, often vociferously, is an American tradition going back to the earliest days of the country's independence. This character goes far beyond that, actively supporting and encouraging the enemies of both the USA specifically and world freedom in general. That is not dissent, that is disloyalty, people used to be hanged or shot for that, and, assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately. Freedom, including free political expression, is a wonderful thing, but using that freedom to actively aid and abet those who would destroy it is treason.
Just my few minutes worth in the short time I have to post today.
In a few short minutes you've managed to utter the worst threat I've seen posted on this board. Scrat should report this to admin. It is Scrat you are talking about, yes? I, for one, have never seen him post anything that indicated he is a terrorist. Knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him other than calling for his death.
1. Islamic terrorism has as its STATED purpose to enslave you, me, our children, grandchildren and all of humanity under the yoke of Shariya law.[citation needed] There is no question about that, and the terrorist themselves are the first to admit it openly. [citation needed] They have committed acts of mass murder in the USA, the UK, and several other free and democratic European countries. [citation needed] ALL of these countries treasure their legacies of democracy and religious freedom, hence their slowness to respond. However, the terrorists are now on the brink of developing and/or acquiring nuclear weapons, it is a matter of months, not years, and sometime soon that process must be stopped DEAD.[citation needed] Hopefully that will not have to take the form of a defensive nuclear attack against the Islamic nations, but the bottom line remains, if it becomes a choice between losing our freedom and our way of life to Islamic jackals or stopping them with nuclear weapons, then they will be stopped. The alternative, Islamic slavery, is a non-starter.
There are a few citations needed as noted. I've not been aware that jackals have religious behaviour. Perhaps you mean "people" ie) human beings? Your predictions are just that. Do you have credentials as a political analyst? or even a psychic?
2. The second issue is this WINGNUT who claims to be an American and posts ream after ream of the vilest anti-American, anti-Western, and anti-democratic garbage, and when challenged or questioned, simply ignores the challenges and continues to foul these forums. First of all, that defiles the intent of the forums. Members who come here for a forthright exchange of ideas shouldn't have to wade through all that. Secondly, criticizing the US government, often vociferously, is an American tradition going back to the earliest days of the country's independence. This character goes far beyond that, actively supporting and encouraging the enemies of both the USA specifically and world freedom in general. That is not dissent, that is disloyalty, people used to be hanged or shot for that, and, assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately. Freedom, including free political expression, is a wonderful thing, but using that freedom to actively aid and abet those who would destroy it is treason.
Just my few minutes worth in the short time I have to post today.
In a few short minutes you've managed to utter the worst threat I've seen posted on this board. Scrat should report this to admin. It is Scrat you are talking about, yes? I, for one, have never seen him post anything that indicated he is a terrorist. Knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him other than calling for his death.
President Bush Speaks to UN
koan wrote: 1. There are a few citations needed as noted. I've not been aware that jackals have religious behaviour. Perhaps you mean "people" ie) human beings? Your predictions are just that.
2. Do you have credentials as a political analyst? or even a psychic?
3. In a few short minutes you've managed to utter the worst threat I've seen posted on this board. Scrat should report this to admin. It is Scrat you are talking about, yes? I, for one, have never seen him post anything that indicated he is a terrorist. Knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him other than calling for his death.1. When they start behaving like human beings I will refer to them as such. Citations? If you are not aware that they have made, and continue to make such threats, what planet have you been living on? I suggest that, for a start, you review the rantings and ravings of the dirtbags arrested in the Finsbury Park mosque raid. If those do not suffice I will provide some actual links.
2. Do you?
3. Gee golly, koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism? I was not aware of that, but then, I'm halfway around the world. Can you give some documented examples of where/when this has happened? Maybe you've just been reading too many of this dude's posts.
My understanding is that, as a LOYAL American, it's my obligation to alert them to such dangerous individuals. But let's be clear here. Mere advocacy, as far as I know, does not meet the test of treason. Treason requires some ACT of disloyalty, overt or covert. Posting on a discussion board would not qualify as an ACT of treason (unless it could be proven, for example, that some sort of coded message to terrorists was contained in the posts). Nonetheless, based on his posts here, I can't help thinking that the DHS would at least be interested in INTERVIEWING this character, an interview which, I have little doubt, he would survive. The murderers are the Islamists, not the branch of the US government that looks after the safety of its citizens. Of course, I don't know who he is, which is lucky for him.
2. Do you have credentials as a political analyst? or even a psychic?
3. In a few short minutes you've managed to utter the worst threat I've seen posted on this board. Scrat should report this to admin. It is Scrat you are talking about, yes? I, for one, have never seen him post anything that indicated he is a terrorist. Knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him other than calling for his death.1. When they start behaving like human beings I will refer to them as such. Citations? If you are not aware that they have made, and continue to make such threats, what planet have you been living on? I suggest that, for a start, you review the rantings and ravings of the dirtbags arrested in the Finsbury Park mosque raid. If those do not suffice I will provide some actual links.
2. Do you?
3. Gee golly, koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism? I was not aware of that, but then, I'm halfway around the world. Can you give some documented examples of where/when this has happened? Maybe you've just been reading too many of this dude's posts.
My understanding is that, as a LOYAL American, it's my obligation to alert them to such dangerous individuals. But let's be clear here. Mere advocacy, as far as I know, does not meet the test of treason. Treason requires some ACT of disloyalty, overt or covert. Posting on a discussion board would not qualify as an ACT of treason (unless it could be proven, for example, that some sort of coded message to terrorists was contained in the posts). Nonetheless, based on his posts here, I can't help thinking that the DHS would at least be interested in INTERVIEWING this character, an interview which, I have little doubt, he would survive. The murderers are the Islamists, not the branch of the US government that looks after the safety of its citizens. Of course, I don't know who he is, which is lucky for him.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: 3. Gee golly, koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism? I was not aware of that, but then, I'm halfway around the world. Can you give some documented examples of where/when this has happened? Maybe you've just been reading too many of this dude's posts.No she didn't tell you that "the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism", she told you that "knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him".
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/?p=1322 followed by http://www.ensight.org/archives/2005/03 ... the-story/ give hint of what happens to people when DHS focuses on them. They should use Sauron's all-seeing eye as their logo.
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/?p=1322 followed by http://www.ensight.org/archives/2005/03 ... the-story/ give hint of what happens to people when DHS focuses on them. They should use Sauron's all-seeing eye as their logo.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: No she didn't tell you that "the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism", she told you that "knowing how he feels about Homeland Security, I doubt there is a worse threat you could make upon him".
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/?p=1322 followed by http://www.ensight.org/archives/2005/03 ... the-story/ give hint of what happens to people when DHS focuses on them. They should use Sauron's all-seeing eye as their logo.You didn't finish.
"... than by calling for his death."
She didn't call for his death.
I can't believe I just gave BrownWin support. Excuse me, I have to bathe now.
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/?p=1322 followed by http://www.ensight.org/archives/2005/03 ... the-story/ give hint of what happens to people when DHS focuses on them. They should use Sauron's all-seeing eye as their logo.You didn't finish.
"... than by calling for his death."
She didn't call for his death.
I can't believe I just gave BrownWin support. Excuse me, I have to bathe now.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Accountable wrote: You didn't finish.
"... than by calling for his death."
She didn't call for his death.
I can't believe I just gave BrownWin support. Excuse me, I have to bathe now.So now four of us have said exactly the same thing, that Bronwen didn't call for Scrat's death. You said it, I said it , Bronwen said it and koan said it.
Brownwen's "koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism" is the folly that's being cleared up here. The answer is no, koan wasn't. That's the point of my post.
"... than by calling for his death."
She didn't call for his death.
I can't believe I just gave BrownWin support. Excuse me, I have to bathe now.So now four of us have said exactly the same thing, that Bronwen didn't call for Scrat's death. You said it, I said it , Bronwen said it and koan said it.
Brownwen's "koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism" is the folly that's being cleared up here. The answer is no, koan wasn't. That's the point of my post.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
President Bush Speaks to UN
I missed the word "other". :-5
President Bush Speaks to UN
Since Homeland Security's been brought up by Bronwen, as far as their apparently unlimited powers of arrest on American soil and indefinite detention without trial of American citizens go, we have the example of Jose Padilla.from "Security And Liberty", Anthony Lewis, 2003
On May 8, 2002, Padilla flew into Chicago from abroad. He was taken into custody at O’Hare Airport by federal agents. The Justice Department went before the U.S. District Court in New York and got a warrant for his arrest and detention as a material witness for a grand jury sitting there to investigate the September 11 attacks. Padilla was then moved to a jail in New York. On May 15, he was brought before Judge Michael B. Mukasey, who appointed Donna R. Newman as his lawyer. Newman, after conferring with Padilla in jail, moved to vacate the material witness warrant. The judge set June 11 for a hearing on the motion.
But on June 9, the government told the judge that it was withdrawing its subpoena for Padilla to testify before the grand jury. It disclosed to Judge Mukasey that President Bush had designated Padilla an enemy combatant and directed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to take custody of him. Padilla was flown to a Navy brig in South Carolina and kept in solitary confinement, forbidden to see his lawyer, his family, or any other outside person.
Judge Mukasey said the court would scrutinize the finding that Padilla was an enemy combatant - but would hold the government to a very low standard of proof. He said the court would consider only whether there was "some evidence to support" the president’s "conclusion that Padilla was, like the German saboteurs in Quirin, engaged in a mission against the United States on behalf of an enemy with whom the United States is at war." Merely "some evidence," not "a preponderance of the evidence," the standard in civil cases in this country, much less "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," the test in criminal cases.
A Washington Post editorial characterized the decision as "a pointed reminder that even during wartime, the president’s power to lock up an American citizen must be justified to the courts, and that hearing from the accused is essential to the court’s task." The judge understood, the Post said, "that without access to a lawyer and at least some ability to contest the government’s claims in court, nobody’s rights are safe."
How safe will we be if Judge Mukasey’s formula becomes the final legal rule? The fact remains that an American citizen was seized at a Chicago airport and detained in solitary confinement, without a trial, for what could be, for all we know, the rest of his life. And that was done on the say-so of government officials alone, with no check except the rather slim possibility of the citizen showing that the government had not even "some evidence" of his wrongdoings - in other words, that it had no evidence. The Economist, which has kept a sharp eye on the state of American liberties since September 11, wrote shortly after Judge Mukasey’s decision: "It is hard to imagine that America would look kindly on a foreign government that demanded the right to hold some of its own citizens in prison, incommunicado, denying them access to legal assistance as long as it thought necessary, without ever charging them with a crime."
A few hours after Attorney General Ashcroft’s June 10 statement on Padilla, President Bush made an eloquent statement on the importance of the rule of law. In the war on terrorism, he said, the "rule of law" and "limits on the power of the state" were "non-negotiable demands of human dignity." At this writing, Jose Padilla remains in isolated detention, while the government appeals Judge Mukasey’s decision.That was in 2003. Jose Padilla is still held in isolation (in Florida at the moment), and has still not faced trial. The current state of affairs is outlined, by one of the attorneys representing him on his habeas petition, at http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/ ... iod-is.php
On May 8, 2002, Padilla flew into Chicago from abroad. He was taken into custody at O’Hare Airport by federal agents. The Justice Department went before the U.S. District Court in New York and got a warrant for his arrest and detention as a material witness for a grand jury sitting there to investigate the September 11 attacks. Padilla was then moved to a jail in New York. On May 15, he was brought before Judge Michael B. Mukasey, who appointed Donna R. Newman as his lawyer. Newman, after conferring with Padilla in jail, moved to vacate the material witness warrant. The judge set June 11 for a hearing on the motion.
But on June 9, the government told the judge that it was withdrawing its subpoena for Padilla to testify before the grand jury. It disclosed to Judge Mukasey that President Bush had designated Padilla an enemy combatant and directed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to take custody of him. Padilla was flown to a Navy brig in South Carolina and kept in solitary confinement, forbidden to see his lawyer, his family, or any other outside person.
Judge Mukasey said the court would scrutinize the finding that Padilla was an enemy combatant - but would hold the government to a very low standard of proof. He said the court would consider only whether there was "some evidence to support" the president’s "conclusion that Padilla was, like the German saboteurs in Quirin, engaged in a mission against the United States on behalf of an enemy with whom the United States is at war." Merely "some evidence," not "a preponderance of the evidence," the standard in civil cases in this country, much less "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," the test in criminal cases.
A Washington Post editorial characterized the decision as "a pointed reminder that even during wartime, the president’s power to lock up an American citizen must be justified to the courts, and that hearing from the accused is essential to the court’s task." The judge understood, the Post said, "that without access to a lawyer and at least some ability to contest the government’s claims in court, nobody’s rights are safe."
How safe will we be if Judge Mukasey’s formula becomes the final legal rule? The fact remains that an American citizen was seized at a Chicago airport and detained in solitary confinement, without a trial, for what could be, for all we know, the rest of his life. And that was done on the say-so of government officials alone, with no check except the rather slim possibility of the citizen showing that the government had not even "some evidence" of his wrongdoings - in other words, that it had no evidence. The Economist, which has kept a sharp eye on the state of American liberties since September 11, wrote shortly after Judge Mukasey’s decision: "It is hard to imagine that America would look kindly on a foreign government that demanded the right to hold some of its own citizens in prison, incommunicado, denying them access to legal assistance as long as it thought necessary, without ever charging them with a crime."
A few hours after Attorney General Ashcroft’s June 10 statement on Padilla, President Bush made an eloquent statement on the importance of the rule of law. In the war on terrorism, he said, the "rule of law" and "limits on the power of the state" were "non-negotiable demands of human dignity." At this writing, Jose Padilla remains in isolated detention, while the government appeals Judge Mukasey’s decision.That was in 2003. Jose Padilla is still held in isolation (in Florida at the moment), and has still not faced trial. The current state of affairs is outlined, by one of the attorneys representing him on his habeas petition, at http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/ ... iod-is.php
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: Since Homeland Security's been brought up by Bronwen, as far as their apparently unlimited powers of arrest on American soil and indefinite detention without trial of American citizens go, we have the example of Jose Padilla.This screams the proof that you place your hatred for America and/or Bush above any true feelings you may have for human rights, etc. Why hide such an important story here, using it as a weapon to prove some trivial point of yours, rather than giving it as much status as you can here, by giving it its own thread? 
President Bush Speaks to UN
Accountable wrote: This screams the proof that you place your hatred for America and/or Bush above any true feelings you may have for human rights, etc. Why hide such an important story here, using it as a weapon to prove some trivial point of yours, rather than giving it as much status as you can here, by giving it its own thread? :mad:Good lord - because it's in context, of course. I wouldn't have gone looking for it had the issue not been raised in this thread at this point. You think I've had that post on my hard drive waiting for an opportunity to slide it in undetected?
As for "your hatred for America and/or Bush", I have a great love and admiration for America and have always said as much. If "Bush" is shorthand for your President then I wish him long life and express my regrets that he got caught up in a position so far beyond his natural abilities. If it's shorthand for the current US administration then yes, I loathe and detest all they stand for.
As for "your hatred for America and/or Bush", I have a great love and admiration for America and have always said as much. If "Bush" is shorthand for your President then I wish him long life and express my regrets that he got caught up in a position so far beyond his natural abilities. If it's shorthand for the current US administration then yes, I loathe and detest all they stand for.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
President Bush Speaks to UN
You found it. You decided where to put it. That decision was based on your values.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Accountable wrote: You found it. You decided where to put it. That decision was based on your values.Indeed I did, indeed I did, and indeed it does.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Whilst glad the placement of the word "other" cleared up the semantics of my statement to Bronwen, the argument of the wording has managed to cloud over the fact that Bronwen threatened a member of this board. I restate it so as to make sure the significance is not lost. The threat of reporting to Homeland Security a member whose posts anger her and the call for anyone who knows who Scrat is to take action against him completely contravenes the nature of this message board. It is a blatant intimidation in attempt to scare the poster from speaking his mind. Collecting personal information on other members and threatening are both against the TOS, as I understand it, and short reflection on the rules will show good reason for them. This case in point.
I find Scrat odd but not deserving of such treatment.
Accountable wrote: You found it. You decided where to put it. That decision was based on your values.
spot's posts about Homeland Security are perfectly placed in this thread. Bush speaks to the UN as the president of a supposedly free nation. Homeland Security is an invention of his administration. I believe the topic had its own thread at some point in the past. Your reaction seems inflated.
I find Scrat odd but not deserving of such treatment.
Accountable wrote: You found it. You decided where to put it. That decision was based on your values.
spot's posts about Homeland Security are perfectly placed in this thread. Bush speaks to the UN as the president of a supposedly free nation. Homeland Security is an invention of his administration. I believe the topic had its own thread at some point in the past. Your reaction seems inflated.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: 1. When they start behaving like human beings I will refer to them as such. Citations? If you are not aware that they have made, and continue to make such threats, what planet have you been living on? I suggest that, for a start, you review the rantings and ravings of the dirtbags arrested in the Finsbury Park mosque raid. If those do not suffice I will provide some actual links.
2. Do you?
3. Gee golly, koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism? I was not aware of that, but then, I'm halfway around the world. Can you give some documented examples of where/when this has happened? Maybe you've just been reading too many of this dude's posts.
My understanding is that, as a LOYAL American, it's my obligation to alert them to such dangerous individuals. But let's be clear here. Mere advocacy, as far as I know, does not meet the test of treason. Treason requires some ACT of disloyalty, overt or covert. Posting on a discussion board would not qualify as an ACT of treason (unless it could be proven, for example, that some sort of coded message to terrorists was contained in the posts). Nonetheless, based on his posts here, I can't help thinking that the DHS would at least be interested in INTERVIEWING this character, an interview which, I have little doubt, he would survive. The murderers are the Islamists, not the branch of the US government that looks after the safety of its citizens. Of course, I don't know who he is, which is lucky for him.
1) I hope you are, one day down the road, suitably embarassed by your statements here. The wars today are being fed by attitudes like yours. Islamophobia. There is treatment available. Seek it.
2) I have not made predictions of the future in these matters. You have. But...funny enough, yes, I do have a reputation as a psychic. Even with that reputation I do not ask anybody to take my vision of the future as a fact, as you do.
3) Intermediary posts have cleared up your mistaking of the words used. In this post you now confirm that you feel Scrat is innocent (would survive an interview) but call for his detention so that he may be harassed and intimidated by a government body. Shame on you.
2. Do you?
3. Gee golly, koan, are you telling me that the DHS goes out and kills people whom it suspects of abetting Islamic terrorism? I was not aware of that, but then, I'm halfway around the world. Can you give some documented examples of where/when this has happened? Maybe you've just been reading too many of this dude's posts.
My understanding is that, as a LOYAL American, it's my obligation to alert them to such dangerous individuals. But let's be clear here. Mere advocacy, as far as I know, does not meet the test of treason. Treason requires some ACT of disloyalty, overt or covert. Posting on a discussion board would not qualify as an ACT of treason (unless it could be proven, for example, that some sort of coded message to terrorists was contained in the posts). Nonetheless, based on his posts here, I can't help thinking that the DHS would at least be interested in INTERVIEWING this character, an interview which, I have little doubt, he would survive. The murderers are the Islamists, not the branch of the US government that looks after the safety of its citizens. Of course, I don't know who he is, which is lucky for him.
1) I hope you are, one day down the road, suitably embarassed by your statements here. The wars today are being fed by attitudes like yours. Islamophobia. There is treatment available. Seek it.
2) I have not made predictions of the future in these matters. You have. But...funny enough, yes, I do have a reputation as a psychic. Even with that reputation I do not ask anybody to take my vision of the future as a fact, as you do.
3) Intermediary posts have cleared up your mistaking of the words used. In this post you now confirm that you feel Scrat is innocent (would survive an interview) but call for his detention so that he may be harassed and intimidated by a government body. Shame on you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Accountable wrote: Excuse me, I have to bathe now.Once every month, whether you need it or not, right?
President Bush Speaks to UN
koan wrote: 1) I hope you are, one day down the road, suitably embarassed by your statements here. The wars today are being fed by attitudes like yours. Islamophobia. There is treatment available. Seek it.
2) I have not made predictions of the future in these matters. You have. But...funny enough, yes, I do have a reputation as a psychic. Even with that reputation I do not ask anybody to take my vision of the future as a fact, as you do.
3) Intermediary posts have cleared up your mistaking of the words used. In this post you now confirm that you feel Scrat is innocent (would survive an interview) but call for his detention so that he may be harassed and intimidated by a government body. Shame on you.1. Uh, no, koan, the wars today, the ones we are talking about here at least, are being fed by Islamic terrorists. When the terrorism stops, so will the wars.
2. You may well have a reputation as a psychotic, but that is beside the point. One does not need ESP to predict that the sun will rise tomorrow morning a minute or so later than it rose today, or that Iran will be prevented from attaining nuclear weapons capability. The one is about as certain as the other.
3. Did I mention dentition? If he needs a dentist he should make an appointment. Oh, excuse please, you said detention. I don't think I mentioned that either. I said that, based on some of his posts here I imagined that the DHS might at least like to interview him. I still think so, and I might add that if I were ever able to help that department in any way, I would be eager and proud to do so - they would not have to detain me.
See, koan, nearly all of us Americans love our country and want our freedom and our way of life defended, and then there are a few losers, loners, and malcontents like Scat who hate it and openly support its mortal enemies. That small group is of concern to the rest of us, for reasons that should be obvious, even to you.
2) I have not made predictions of the future in these matters. You have. But...funny enough, yes, I do have a reputation as a psychic. Even with that reputation I do not ask anybody to take my vision of the future as a fact, as you do.
3) Intermediary posts have cleared up your mistaking of the words used. In this post you now confirm that you feel Scrat is innocent (would survive an interview) but call for his detention so that he may be harassed and intimidated by a government body. Shame on you.1. Uh, no, koan, the wars today, the ones we are talking about here at least, are being fed by Islamic terrorists. When the terrorism stops, so will the wars.
2. You may well have a reputation as a psychotic, but that is beside the point. One does not need ESP to predict that the sun will rise tomorrow morning a minute or so later than it rose today, or that Iran will be prevented from attaining nuclear weapons capability. The one is about as certain as the other.
3. Did I mention dentition? If he needs a dentist he should make an appointment. Oh, excuse please, you said detention. I don't think I mentioned that either. I said that, based on some of his posts here I imagined that the DHS might at least like to interview him. I still think so, and I might add that if I were ever able to help that department in any way, I would be eager and proud to do so - they would not have to detain me.
See, koan, nearly all of us Americans love our country and want our freedom and our way of life defended, and then there are a few losers, loners, and malcontents like Scat who hate it and openly support its mortal enemies. That small group is of concern to the rest of us, for reasons that should be obvious, even to you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: 2. You may well have a reputation as a psychotic, but that is beside the point.This, lady, is just disgusting and repetitive abuse. Is there no way to persuade you to stop it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: This, lady, is just disgusting and repetitive abuse. Is there no way to persuade you to stop it?I suppose you could send some Muslims after me.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: I suppose you could send some Muslims after me.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.Rather in the same vein as "assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately"? Bronwen, you've lots touch with whatever moderates your aggression on FG and it needs to return. Calling koan a psychotic is another example. None of this hitting out of yours is "just a little joke", it's personal and, were it remotely accurate, it would be potentially harmful as well.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.Rather in the same vein as "assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately"? Bronwen, you've lots touch with whatever moderates your aggression on FG and it needs to return. Calling koan a psychotic is another example. None of this hitting out of yours is "just a little joke", it's personal and, were it remotely accurate, it would be potentially harmful as well.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: Rather in the same vein as "assuming that he really is an American and living in the USA, rather than just staging a charade from some Islamic hellhole, anyone who knows who this jerk is should report him to the Department of Homeland Security immediately"? Bronwen, you've lots touch with whatever moderates your aggression on FG and it needs to return. Calling koan a psychotic is another example. None of this hitting out of yours is "just a little joke", it's personal and, were it remotely accurate, it would be potentially harmful as well.No, now let's be clear here. Calling koan a psychotic instead of a psychic and talking about Scat's dentition rather than his detention were just examples of my slightly warped sense of humor.
That Scat PRESENTS HIMSELF as a disloyal American is quite serious and in my opinion an affront to every decent and loyal American. That he may be doing so only as a sick charade of some kind is certainly possible, just as it is possible that he may not even be an American. I don't know, I take his posts at face value, but I tell you this with 100% sincerity and seriousness: If I knew who he was, I would show some of his posts to the DHS, and I think it's quite possible that after reading them the DHS might wish to interview him. I was in the USA all last winter and there are signs and notices everywhere: If you see or hear something, or someone, suspicious, tell the authorities. He and his posts are about as suspicious as it gets.
That Scat PRESENTS HIMSELF as a disloyal American is quite serious and in my opinion an affront to every decent and loyal American. That he may be doing so only as a sick charade of some kind is certainly possible, just as it is possible that he may not even be an American. I don't know, I take his posts at face value, but I tell you this with 100% sincerity and seriousness: If I knew who he was, I would show some of his posts to the DHS, and I think it's quite possible that after reading them the DHS might wish to interview him. I was in the USA all last winter and there are signs and notices everywhere: If you see or hear something, or someone, suspicious, tell the authorities. He and his posts are about as suspicious as it gets.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: If I knew who he was, I would show some of his posts to the DHS, and I think it's quite possible that after reading them the DHS might wish to interview him. I was in the USA all last winter and there are signs and notices everywhere: If you see or hear something, or someone, suspicious, tell the authorities. He and his posts are about as suspicious as it gets.Then I call you a collaborator. And no, describing koan as a psychotic isn't remotely funny.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: Then I call you a collaborator. And no, describing koan as a psychotic isn't remotely funny.A collaborator in what? Defending my country against its enemies?
Gee, I guess you're right.
Gee, I guess you're right.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: A collaborator in what? Defending my country against its enemies?The only enemy your country faces today is its administration and those who collaborate with it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: The only enemy your country faces today is its administration and those who collaborate with it.So THEY'RE the ones who flew those planes into the WTC!
Wow, spot, now YOU'RE the psychic. Is it that psychotic?
Wow, spot, now YOU'RE the psychic. Is it that psychotic?
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: So THEY'RE the ones who flew those planes into the WTC!
Wow, spot, now YOU'RE the psychic. Is it that psychotic?I've never had the least hint of any personal psychic ability. I don't believe I've had any clinically psychotic episodes and none have ever been diagnosed. Have you any other invasive questions you'd like answering?
Wow, spot, now YOU'RE the psychic. Is it that psychotic?I've never had the least hint of any personal psychic ability. I don't believe I've had any clinically psychotic episodes and none have ever been diagnosed. Have you any other invasive questions you'd like answering?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen, your malice is noted. Any laughs you receive for your "friendly" threats are as misguided as your sense of humour.
Perhaps, if the threatening of other members is kept to a minumum, we can return to the discussion at hand.
Perhaps, if the threatening of other members is kept to a minumum, we can return to the discussion at hand.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Bronwen wrote: I suppose you could send some Muslims after me.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.
Not funny - by about a million miles.
Lighten up, spotster, it was just a little joke.
Not funny - by about a million miles.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Scrat wrote: The wars today are happening because of the American (plus a few others) need to dominate the other people in this world.But you'll remember the words this untouchable leper of the White House used to lie himself into office in the first place, I hope?
I’m not sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it’s got to be. I want to empower people. I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don’t think it’s the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you.
They ought to look at us as a country that understands freedom where it doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from that you can succeed. I don’t think they ought to look at us with envy. It really depends upon how [our] nation conducts itself in foreign policy. If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll resent us. If we’re a humble nation, but strong, they’ll welcome us. Our nation stands alone right now in the world in terms of power. And that’s why we’ve got to be humble and yet project strength in a way that promotes freedom. We’re a freedom-loving nation. If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll view us that way, but if we’re humble nation, they’ll respect us.
I’m not sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it’s got to be. I want to empower people. I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don’t think it’s the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you.
They ought to look at us as a country that understands freedom where it doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from that you can succeed. I don’t think they ought to look at us with envy. It really depends upon how [our] nation conducts itself in foreign policy. If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll resent us. If we’re a humble nation, but strong, they’ll welcome us. Our nation stands alone right now in the world in terms of power. And that’s why we’ve got to be humble and yet project strength in a way that promotes freedom. We’re a freedom-loving nation. If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll view us that way, but if we’re humble nation, they’ll respect us.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
Perhaps his presidency has portrayed an arrogant nation after all, then? I wonder why he chose to ignore his own precept. I wonder whether he thought he meant what he said in the first place. I wonder why anyone ever believed the bastard could distinguish electioneering from lying his brazen head off.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."
Yes, "9/11 changed everything". If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll view us that way?
They're not nobodies, the people who brought this PNAC proposal together. Here's where members of the organization which signed off this urgent need for a new Pearl Harbor ended up...
Elliott Abrams on the National Security Council as Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs
Richard Armitage at the Department of State as Deputy Secretary of State
John R. Bolton, he's Ambassador to the United Nations
Richard Cheney, who ended up Vice President presumably on the strength of the PNAC proposal
Seth Cropsey, Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau at the Voice of America
Paula Dobriansky is Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs
Francis Fukuyama managed to stay in teaching as Professor of International Political Economy at Johns Hopkins University
Bruce Jackson is President of the US Committee on NATO
Zalmay Khalilzad, obviously useful at the sharp end in these matters, was Ambassador to Afghanistan before becoming Ambassador to Iraq
I. Lewis Libby, Chief of Staff for the Vice President until indicted by Grand Jury on charges of Obstruction of Justice, False Statements, and Perjury
Peter W. Rodman, Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense and the humane public face of war in general
Randy Scheunemann, who founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq
Paul Wolfowitz, now President of the World Bank having been Donald Rumsfeld's deputy
Dov S. Zakheim, Comptroller of the Department of Defense
Robert B. Zoellick at the Department of State
details gathered from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC#Bush_administration
Yes, "9/11 changed everything". If we’re an arrogant nation, they’ll view us that way?
They're not nobodies, the people who brought this PNAC proposal together. Here's where members of the organization which signed off this urgent need for a new Pearl Harbor ended up...
Elliott Abrams on the National Security Council as Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs
Richard Armitage at the Department of State as Deputy Secretary of State
John R. Bolton, he's Ambassador to the United Nations
Richard Cheney, who ended up Vice President presumably on the strength of the PNAC proposal
Seth Cropsey, Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau at the Voice of America
Paula Dobriansky is Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs
Francis Fukuyama managed to stay in teaching as Professor of International Political Economy at Johns Hopkins University
Bruce Jackson is President of the US Committee on NATO
Zalmay Khalilzad, obviously useful at the sharp end in these matters, was Ambassador to Afghanistan before becoming Ambassador to Iraq
I. Lewis Libby, Chief of Staff for the Vice President until indicted by Grand Jury on charges of Obstruction of Justice, False Statements, and Perjury
Peter W. Rodman, Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense and the humane public face of war in general
Randy Scheunemann, who founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq
Paul Wolfowitz, now President of the World Bank having been Donald Rumsfeld's deputy
Dov S. Zakheim, Comptroller of the Department of Defense
Robert B. Zoellick at the Department of State
details gathered from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC#Bush_administration
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: I've never had the least hint of any personal psychic ability. I don't believe I've had any clinically psychotic episodes and none have ever been diagnosed. Have you any other invasive questions you'd like answering?Well then, let's stop the nonsense, because it's too serious a subject, and talk sensibly.
Disliking the leadership or politics of a DEMOCRATIC country does not give anyone the right to commit acts of terrorism. Dictatorships are a different thing; in those cases, armed insurrection might be considered legitimate on a case by case basis.
George W. Bush was not that popular a candidate in 2000, he won by the narrowest margin in US history. He was reelected more decisely in 2004 because the American voters saw him as more strongly against terrorism than his opponent.
George W. Bush will be out of office in less than 2 1/2 years. That is 100% certain. Calling him a terrorist because he opposes terrorism is really quite silly. Islamic terrorism began long before his election and will continue after he is history. George Bush did not bomb the London Underground, nor has he hijacked the Christian religion. You don't like him? Fine, nobody said you had to. When you move to the USA and become an American citizen you can vote for whomever you please. Until then, you might at least have a little concern for the security of your own little island.
I don't know who the next US president will be, but I'll tell you one thing, no American has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected STREET SWEEPER, let alone president, unless that person takes a hard line on Islamic terrorism. That is what the American people want, that is what I want, and that is why a Clinton-Rice matchup will probably end in a victory for Rice in 2008. Hillary will talk anti-terrorism but the voters will see her as what she is, a politician, while Rice has been in the forefront of the war on terror throughout the current term.
Hopefully her agenda will include rounding up the USA's internal enemies, including one or more of the posters here.
Disliking the leadership or politics of a DEMOCRATIC country does not give anyone the right to commit acts of terrorism. Dictatorships are a different thing; in those cases, armed insurrection might be considered legitimate on a case by case basis.
George W. Bush was not that popular a candidate in 2000, he won by the narrowest margin in US history. He was reelected more decisely in 2004 because the American voters saw him as more strongly against terrorism than his opponent.
George W. Bush will be out of office in less than 2 1/2 years. That is 100% certain. Calling him a terrorist because he opposes terrorism is really quite silly. Islamic terrorism began long before his election and will continue after he is history. George Bush did not bomb the London Underground, nor has he hijacked the Christian religion. You don't like him? Fine, nobody said you had to. When you move to the USA and become an American citizen you can vote for whomever you please. Until then, you might at least have a little concern for the security of your own little island.
I don't know who the next US president will be, but I'll tell you one thing, no American has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected STREET SWEEPER, let alone president, unless that person takes a hard line on Islamic terrorism. That is what the American people want, that is what I want, and that is why a Clinton-Rice matchup will probably end in a victory for Rice in 2008. Hillary will talk anti-terrorism but the voters will see her as what she is, a politician, while Rice has been in the forefront of the war on terror throughout the current term.
Hopefully her agenda will include rounding up the USA's internal enemies, including one or more of the posters here.
President Bush Speaks to UN
posted by bronwen
I don't know who the next US president will be, but I'll tell you one thing, no American has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected STREET SWEEPER, let alone president, unless that person takes a hard line on Islamic terrorism. That is what the American people want, that is what I want, and that is why a Clinton-Rice matchup will probably end in a victory for Rice in 2008. Hillary will talk anti-terrorism but the voters will see her as what she is, a politician, while Rice has been in the forefront of the war on terror throughout the current term.
One terrorist attack and 350 million americans are convinced that they will have to convert to islam if they don't invade Iraq.
What do you think is so dangerous about these terrorists that you will have to convert to islam to be safe from them?
When did americans become so gullible and terrified that someone is going to come along to impose sharia law without their agreeing to it. First of all they have to get you to vote for it don't they? Is it that americans feel they have no real say in government and someone will come along and say you are all now muslim and sharia law now rules? When did you lose the right to have a say?
Or that terrorists could be anywhere. the reality is you are more likely to be shot by a fellow american than killed by a terrorist, It's only big cities that might have to be concerned about it. never mind worrying about Iran and missles decades in the future why not worry about a nuke being slipped in on a container ship. Much cheaper and probably doable, you'd never know who actually did it would you?
How is not going after osama bin laden and invading a country that had nothing to do with 911 a good tactic for combating terrorists. You were lied to by your administration to get you to go along with it at what point will it dawn on americans that something has been badly wrong with foreign policy. If foreigners terrify you that much why not become completely isolationist-cut all trade so no one can sneak a nuclear weapon in hidden in a cargo container. Looks like the US economy is in decline anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1880275,00.html
An authoritative US intelligence report pooling the views of 16 government agencies concludes America's campaign in Iraq has increased the threat of terrorism.
The National Intelligence Estimate was completed in April but not made public. Its conclusions, which were first reported by the New York Times, contradict assertions made by President George Bush and White House officials during the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
Does rather beg the question of who leaked it and if true why is it not published openly?
Take a hard line on terrorists is all very well but why didn't GW go after them? Why was he so determined to keep the UN out of it? Why ignore the role saudi arabia has played in all of this. Maybe it's a conspiracy-take out iraq and iran and saudi will have a free hand to control the whole of the middle east-assuming thay can get the fundamentalists, who they encouraged into existence, back under control. If it is a conspiracy their beast has rather got away from them hasn't it.
I don't know who the next US president will be, but I'll tell you one thing, no American has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected STREET SWEEPER, let alone president, unless that person takes a hard line on Islamic terrorism. That is what the American people want, that is what I want, and that is why a Clinton-Rice matchup will probably end in a victory for Rice in 2008. Hillary will talk anti-terrorism but the voters will see her as what she is, a politician, while Rice has been in the forefront of the war on terror throughout the current term.
One terrorist attack and 350 million americans are convinced that they will have to convert to islam if they don't invade Iraq.
What do you think is so dangerous about these terrorists that you will have to convert to islam to be safe from them?
When did americans become so gullible and terrified that someone is going to come along to impose sharia law without their agreeing to it. First of all they have to get you to vote for it don't they? Is it that americans feel they have no real say in government and someone will come along and say you are all now muslim and sharia law now rules? When did you lose the right to have a say?
Or that terrorists could be anywhere. the reality is you are more likely to be shot by a fellow american than killed by a terrorist, It's only big cities that might have to be concerned about it. never mind worrying about Iran and missles decades in the future why not worry about a nuke being slipped in on a container ship. Much cheaper and probably doable, you'd never know who actually did it would you?
How is not going after osama bin laden and invading a country that had nothing to do with 911 a good tactic for combating terrorists. You were lied to by your administration to get you to go along with it at what point will it dawn on americans that something has been badly wrong with foreign policy. If foreigners terrify you that much why not become completely isolationist-cut all trade so no one can sneak a nuclear weapon in hidden in a cargo container. Looks like the US economy is in decline anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1880275,00.html
An authoritative US intelligence report pooling the views of 16 government agencies concludes America's campaign in Iraq has increased the threat of terrorism.
The National Intelligence Estimate was completed in April but not made public. Its conclusions, which were first reported by the New York Times, contradict assertions made by President George Bush and White House officials during the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
Does rather beg the question of who leaked it and if true why is it not published openly?
Take a hard line on terrorists is all very well but why didn't GW go after them? Why was he so determined to keep the UN out of it? Why ignore the role saudi arabia has played in all of this. Maybe it's a conspiracy-take out iraq and iran and saudi will have a free hand to control the whole of the middle east-assuming thay can get the fundamentalists, who they encouraged into existence, back under control. If it is a conspiracy their beast has rather got away from them hasn't it.
President Bush Speaks to UN
by GMC:
What do you think is so dangerous about these terrorists that you will have to convert to islam to be safe from them?
Are you serious, possibly the fact they killed about 3,000 people....Where did you learn how to count? One terroists attack? They have been attacking us since the early 80's..
Last time I checked American muggers were not armed with nuclear weapons, nerve gas or biological weapons which is where the terrorists are heading.
Yes, for xxth time Bush made a mistake invading Iraq why don't you stop distracting us from the real issue by constantly coming back to that?
US economy in decline? I wouldn't bet anything important on that premise if I were you..
What do you think is so dangerous about these terrorists that you will have to convert to islam to be safe from them?
Are you serious, possibly the fact they killed about 3,000 people....Where did you learn how to count? One terroists attack? They have been attacking us since the early 80's..
Last time I checked American muggers were not armed with nuclear weapons, nerve gas or biological weapons which is where the terrorists are heading.
Yes, for xxth time Bush made a mistake invading Iraq why don't you stop distracting us from the real issue by constantly coming back to that?
US economy in decline? I wouldn't bet anything important on that premise if I were you..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
zinkyusa wrote: by GMC:
Are you serious, possibly the fact they killed about 3,000 people....Where did you learn how to count? One terroists attack? They have been attacking us since the early 80's..
Last time I checked American muggers were not armed with nuclear weapons, nerve gas or biological weapons which is where the terrorists are heading.
Yes, for xxth time Bush made a mistake invading Iraq why don't you stop distracting us from the real issue by constantly coming back to that?
US economy in decline? I wouldn't bet anything important on that premise if I were you..
So how does that threaten western democracy? The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it. The ones that try and tell you to give up fundamental freedoms and we will protect you. Terrorists want to provoke an extreme reaction, that is the whole point of a terrorist act to get an overreaction that gains them more support at home.
What exactly do you think the real issue is?
Your economy may not be declining but it is certainly changing.
http://www.globalagendamagazine.com/2006/Stiglitz.asp
That which is not sustainable will not be sustained. If America were not the economic powerhouse that it is, the day of reckoning would already have come. The only questions that the world faces today are how long it will persist, how it will be tamed and how much damage – to America and the world – will be done in the interim. How hard will the landing be?
CV Joseph Stiglitz
Joseph Stiglitz is University Professor, Columbia University. He served on the Council of Economic Advisers from 1993 to 1997, was the World Bank’s chief economist from 1997 to 2000 and was awarded the Nobel prize for economics in 2001.
Are you serious, possibly the fact they killed about 3,000 people....Where did you learn how to count? One terroists attack? They have been attacking us since the early 80's..
Last time I checked American muggers were not armed with nuclear weapons, nerve gas or biological weapons which is where the terrorists are heading.
Yes, for xxth time Bush made a mistake invading Iraq why don't you stop distracting us from the real issue by constantly coming back to that?
US economy in decline? I wouldn't bet anything important on that premise if I were you..
So how does that threaten western democracy? The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it. The ones that try and tell you to give up fundamental freedoms and we will protect you. Terrorists want to provoke an extreme reaction, that is the whole point of a terrorist act to get an overreaction that gains them more support at home.
What exactly do you think the real issue is?
Your economy may not be declining but it is certainly changing.
http://www.globalagendamagazine.com/2006/Stiglitz.asp
That which is not sustainable will not be sustained. If America were not the economic powerhouse that it is, the day of reckoning would already have come. The only questions that the world faces today are how long it will persist, how it will be tamed and how much damage – to America and the world – will be done in the interim. How hard will the landing be?
CV Joseph Stiglitz
Joseph Stiglitz is University Professor, Columbia University. He served on the Council of Economic Advisers from 1993 to 1997, was the World Bank’s chief economist from 1997 to 2000 and was awarded the Nobel prize for economics in 2001.
President Bush Speaks to UN
gmc wrote: Terrorists want to provoke an extreme reaction, that is the whole point of a terrorist act to get an overreaction that gains them more support at home.That is so exactly right. Thirty years' experience we had of it here and the reaction of both public and government was exemplary - pick yourself up, dust yourself and let the police investigate and prosecute. Of course, they so often broke under pressure to do the job in a rush and were utterly inept at catching the actual perpetrators, you'll remember, but the sense of "business as usual", the refusal to over-react, was honed to perfection. You'd think things like that would be remembered at times like these.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
gmc wrote: So how does that threaten western democracy? The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it. The ones that try and tell you to give up fundamental freedoms and we will protect you. Terrorists want to provoke an extreme reaction, that is the whole point of a terrorist act to get an overreaction that gains them more support at home.
What exactly do you think the real issue is?
Poland 1939 was that internal collapse? France 1940? Korea, Kuwait internal collapses?
The real issue is the threat of Islamic Fundamentalists gaining control of more countries, acquiring nuclear weapons, or other WMD, while Europe appeases (nothing new there).
What fundamental freedoms have we given up?
Extreme over-reaction? Over here it's called self defense.
What exactly do you think the real issue is?
Poland 1939 was that internal collapse? France 1940? Korea, Kuwait internal collapses?
The real issue is the threat of Islamic Fundamentalists gaining control of more countries, acquiring nuclear weapons, or other WMD, while Europe appeases (nothing new there).
What fundamental freedoms have we given up?
Extreme over-reaction? Over here it's called self defense.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
zinkyusa wrote: Poland 1939 was that internal collapse? France 1940? Korea, Kuwait internal collapses?In what way do any of those relate to "terrorism"?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: In what way do any of those relate to "terrorism"?
They don't. They were a response to this incorrect remark by GMC:
The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it.
They don't. They were a response to this incorrect remark by GMC:
The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
zinkyusa wrote: They don't. They were a response to this incorrect remark by GMC:
The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it.
And you don't feel that he, like the rest of us thoughout this thread, has been talking of the response to "terrorism" as opposed to massed armed force invasions?
The only way a free country can be brought down is from the inside by those within the system who want to destroy it.
And you don't feel that he, like the rest of us thoughout this thread, has been talking of the response to "terrorism" as opposed to massed armed force invasions?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: And you don't feel that he, like the rest of us thoughout this thread, has been talking of the response to "terrorism" as opposed to massed armed force invasions?
I think the point is that is a short sighted view to take. Today's terrorists may be the leaders of countries tomorrow..
Hitler started out esentially as a thug/terrorists.
I think the point is that is a short sighted view to take. Today's terrorists may be the leaders of countries tomorrow..
Hitler started out esentially as a thug/terrorists.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
President Bush Speaks to UN
zinkyusa wrote: I think the point is that is a short sighted view to take. Today's terrorists may be the leaders of countries tomorrow..
Hitler started out esentially as a thug/terrorists.And meanwhile your administration is taking the excuse of pre-emptive action against potential long-term perceived threats as an excuse to invade other countries half-way across the world which just happen to coincide with major financial interests at home. If "Hitler started out esentially as a thug" you should take the lesson to heart. He was into sending his armed forces abroad as well. The US signed up to international obligations promising never to behave this way, and if it weren't so all-fired powerful at the moment it would have been stopped long since. Might makes right, apparently.
Hitler started out esentially as a thug/terrorists.And meanwhile your administration is taking the excuse of pre-emptive action against potential long-term perceived threats as an excuse to invade other countries half-way across the world which just happen to coincide with major financial interests at home. If "Hitler started out esentially as a thug" you should take the lesson to heart. He was into sending his armed forces abroad as well. The US signed up to international obligations promising never to behave this way, and if it weren't so all-fired powerful at the moment it would have been stopped long since. Might makes right, apparently.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Bush Speaks to UN
spot wrote: And meanwhile your administration is taking the excuse of pre-emptive action against potential long-term perceived threats as an excuse to invade other countries half-way across the world which just happen to coincide with major financial interests at home. If "Hitler started out esentially as a thug" you should take the lesson to heart. He was into sending his armed forces abroad as well. The US signed up to international obligations promising never to behave this way, and if it weren't so all-fired powerful at the moment it would have been stopped long since. Might makes right, apparently.
What does that have to do with any of my points? Are you trying to equate Bush to Hitler? Sadam Hussein's Iraq or Theocratic/Autocratic Iran to Poland or France in 1939? Bit of a reach I'd say..
What does that have to do with any of my points? Are you trying to equate Bush to Hitler? Sadam Hussein's Iraq or Theocratic/Autocratic Iran to Poland or France in 1939? Bit of a reach I'd say..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.