It is said that Hamas are the terrorists. I'm having trouble with a few things here.
They were elected by the Palestinians.
Hamas officials have been kidnapped, en masse, by the Israelis
Fatah has just threatened to assassinate a number of named officials.
And the West supports a) Israel and b) Fatah.
"The Israeli army said that 64 Hamas officials, including eight ministers and 20 other parliamentarians, had been detained in the series of early-morning arrests...
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, an ally of president Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the arrests. "We have no government, we have nothing. They have all been taken," he said. "This is absolutely unacceptable and we demand their release immediately."
Fatah gunmen issued a leaflet making the threat, reports CBS News correspondent Robert Berger. The hit list includes Khaled Mashaal, the top leader of Hamas based in Syria and two senior officials in Gaza. The leaflet described these leaders as traitors. Hamas, in turn, accused Fatah of launching a coup."
Upholding Democracy?
Upholding Democracy?
Sometimes I feel like the little boy who dared to say "But the Emperor is naked!"
Upholding Democracy?
koan wrote: It is said that Hamas are the terrorists. I'm having trouble with a few things here.
They were elected by the Palestinians.
Hamas officials have been kidnapped, en masse, by the Israelis
Fatah has just threatened to assassinate a number of named officials.
And the West supports a) Israel and b) Fatah.
Yes they were elected and yes they are terrorists. So is Hezbollah and they hold seats and cabinet postitions in the Lebanese Parliment and government
Unfortunately the two conditions are not mutally exclusive.
I don't have a problem with not supporting a democratically elected terrorist government. Fatah still holds the PM position and as such is responsible for forming a coaltion government, so yes we do support Fatah.
Seems clear enough to me..
They were elected by the Palestinians.
Hamas officials have been kidnapped, en masse, by the Israelis
Fatah has just threatened to assassinate a number of named officials.
And the West supports a) Israel and b) Fatah.
Yes they were elected and yes they are terrorists. So is Hezbollah and they hold seats and cabinet postitions in the Lebanese Parliment and government
Unfortunately the two conditions are not mutally exclusive.
I don't have a problem with not supporting a democratically elected terrorist government. Fatah still holds the PM position and as such is responsible for forming a coaltion government, so yes we do support Fatah.
Seems clear enough to me..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Upholding Democracy?
zinkyusa wrote: Yes they were elected and yes they are terrorists. So is Hezbollah and they hold seats and cabinet postitions in the Lebanese Parliment and government
Unfortunately the two conditions are not mutally exclusive.
I don't have a problem with not supporting a democratically elected terrorist government. Fatah still holds the PM position and as such is responsible for forming a coaltion government, so yes we do support Fatah.
Seems clear enough to me..
So you think the british govt should not allow sinn fein to stand for any parliamentary seats?
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
Unfortunately the two conditions are not mutally exclusive.
I don't have a problem with not supporting a democratically elected terrorist government. Fatah still holds the PM position and as such is responsible for forming a coaltion government, so yes we do support Fatah.
Seems clear enough to me..
So you think the british govt should not allow sinn fein to stand for any parliamentary seats?
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
Upholding Democracy?
ArnoldLayne wrote: I could be arguementative and say that sooner or later Hamas is going to have to sit down and talk to Israel and make peace 
Very true but israel doesn't seem very interested in talking either.
Very true but israel doesn't seem very interested in talking either.
Upholding Democracy?
gmc wrote: So you think the british govt should not allow sinn fein to stand for any parliamentary seats?
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
No, no I didn't mean anything like that all. I think it's great sinn fein has seats and I want Hamas to have their seats as well if that is who the Palestinians want to govern them. They (Hamas) have to stop being terrorists first though if they expect any support from the US ( if they care). I don't want to see my government giving any support to them until that condition is met.
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
No, no I didn't mean anything like that all. I think it's great sinn fein has seats and I want Hamas to have their seats as well if that is who the Palestinians want to govern them. They (Hamas) have to stop being terrorists first though if they expect any support from the US ( if they care). I don't want to see my government giving any support to them until that condition is met.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Upholding Democracy?
The point that is being missed is that Fatah is sending around leaflets with the names of people that will be assassinated soon. So supporting Fatah is supporting terrorism.
That seems clear enough to me.
That seems clear enough to me.
Upholding Democracy?
koan wrote: The point that is being missed is that Fatah is sending around leaflets with the names of people that will be assassinated soon. So supporting Fatah is supporting terrorism.
That seems clear enough to me.
Well if they are doing that they are no better than Hamas, they seem to be disintegrating into civil war.
That seems clear enough to me.
Well if they are doing that they are no better than Hamas, they seem to be disintegrating into civil war.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Upholding Democracy?
zinkyusa wrote: Well if they are doing that they are no better than Hamas, they seem to be disintegrating into civil war.
That seems to be the problem. The West backs certain factions and end up making things worse. I believe the same situation can be seen in Afghanistan with the Northern Alliance, our supposed "allies".
That seems to be the problem. The West backs certain factions and end up making things worse. I believe the same situation can be seen in Afghanistan with the Northern Alliance, our supposed "allies".
Upholding Democracy?
gmc wrote: So you think the british govt should not allow sinn fein to stand for any parliamentary seats?
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.
You can only make peace by sitting down and talking to your enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to talk to hamas and make peace. Telling the palestinians to go away and elect the right govt won't work.
Kind odf looks like hamas and fatah are more interested in fighting amongst themselves though.
Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.
Upholding Democracy?
twizzel wrote: Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.
That is an interesting foreign policy.
It would, of course have to apply to all countries equally. Therein lies the problem.
That is an interesting foreign policy.
It would, of course have to apply to all countries equally. Therein lies the problem.
Upholding Democracy?
twizzel wrote: Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.
That just makes you 20 times the terrorist they are.
It's the same mistake the Israelis are making - a disproportionate response makes the problem worse in the long term by stoking the fires of hatred and goading more of your opponents into extreme reactions.
If a terrorist commits an atrocity then arrest him and punish him as the criminal he is - do not take vengence on innocent people not responsible for the crime.
That just makes you 20 times the terrorist they are.
It's the same mistake the Israelis are making - a disproportionate response makes the problem worse in the long term by stoking the fires of hatred and goading more of your opponents into extreme reactions.
If a terrorist commits an atrocity then arrest him and punish him as the criminal he is - do not take vengence on innocent people not responsible for the crime.
Upholding Democracy?
twizzel wrote: Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.The only definition I know of a terrorist is someone who fights back that you don't like much. It's a perjorative label, as opposed to "freedom fighter".
Your proposed solution is known historically as the Lidice approach to occupation management:In 1942, Reinhard Heydrich was the Reichsprotektor of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia which had been occupied by Germany in 1939. On the morning of May 27, 1942, he was being driven from his country villa to his office in Prague. When he reached the HoleÅ¡ovice area of Prague, his car was attacked by two Czechoslovak resistance fighters, Jozef GabčÃk and Jan KubiÅ¡. These men, who had been trained in Britain, had parachuted into Czechoslovakia in December, 1941, as part of Operation Anthropoid. On June 4, 1942, Heydrich died in Bulovka hospital in Prague from an infection. Hitler, enraged, ordered Kurt Daluege, Heydrich's replacement, to wade through blood to find Heydrich's killers. The Germans began a massive retaliation campaign against the civilian Czech population.
Your proposed solution is known historically as the Lidice approach to occupation management:In 1942, Reinhard Heydrich was the Reichsprotektor of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia which had been occupied by Germany in 1939. On the morning of May 27, 1942, he was being driven from his country villa to his office in Prague. When he reached the HoleÅ¡ovice area of Prague, his car was attacked by two Czechoslovak resistance fighters, Jozef GabčÃk and Jan KubiÅ¡. These men, who had been trained in Britain, had parachuted into Czechoslovakia in December, 1941, as part of Operation Anthropoid. On June 4, 1942, Heydrich died in Bulovka hospital in Prague from an infection. Hitler, enraged, ordered Kurt Daluege, Heydrich's replacement, to wade through blood to find Heydrich's killers. The Germans began a massive retaliation campaign against the civilian Czech population.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Upholding Democracy?
twizzel wrote: Terroristsare terrorists are terrorists I believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, so if they kill one of yours you kill twenty of theres sooner or later they will all be dead and won't the world be a better place for it.
If in the process of kiling one terrorist you kill twenty people who have nothing to do with them and didn't have any sympathy for them you now have twenty families that are likely to join in with the terrorists. Terrorists do not represent some kind of mass political movement, in the middle east a lot of it comes from countries where there is no political freedom. Like the Saudi Terrorists that attacked america on 911 or Osama Bin laden themselves.
Israel now has those in lebanon who were broadly sympathetic to Israel and opposed he likes of Hezbollah wary of them and probably ready to pick up arms if israel attacks again. American policy in particular is now doing more to help the terrorists than anything they can do themselves.
If in the process of kiling one terrorist you kill twenty people who have nothing to do with them and didn't have any sympathy for them you now have twenty families that are likely to join in with the terrorists. Terrorists do not represent some kind of mass political movement, in the middle east a lot of it comes from countries where there is no political freedom. Like the Saudi Terrorists that attacked america on 911 or Osama Bin laden themselves.
Israel now has those in lebanon who were broadly sympathetic to Israel and opposed he likes of Hezbollah wary of them and probably ready to pick up arms if israel attacks again. American policy in particular is now doing more to help the terrorists than anything they can do themselves.
Upholding Democracy?
gmc wrote: If in the process of kiling one terrorist you kill twenty people who have nothing to do with them and didn't have any sympathy for them you now have twenty families that are likely to join in with the terrorists. Terrorists do not represent some kind of mass political movement, in the middle east a lot of it comes from countries where there is no political freedom. Like the Saudi Terrorists that attacked america on 911 or Osama Bin laden themselves.
Israel now has those in lebanon who were broadly sympathetic to Israel and opposed he likes of Hezbollah wary of them and probably ready to pick up arms if israel attacks again. American policy in particular is now doing more to help the terrorists than anything they can do themselves.
Thanks, GMC, for putting into English what I was trying, and failing, to get across.
Israel now has those in lebanon who were broadly sympathetic to Israel and opposed he likes of Hezbollah wary of them and probably ready to pick up arms if israel attacks again. American policy in particular is now doing more to help the terrorists than anything they can do themselves.
Thanks, GMC, for putting into English what I was trying, and failing, to get across.