A friend and I saw this documentary today and both of us were shaken! It centers on a camp for children run by a "childrens' minister" named Becky Fisher. The children are told lies ("science is stupid," a seven-week fetus is shown to be a perfect, miniature baby, etc,) they're manipulated with music, chanting and terror tactics. They're shown a cardboard cut-out of George Bush and told they should "bless it," and they're taught to chant about "righteous judges" on the Supreme Court.
The most genuinely scary part is when Ms. Fisher states blatantly that "democracy will destroy this country because it means we have to give everyone equal rights."
Various adults boast that they want the children to help achieve a CHRISTIAN nation and "put GOD back into government."
If you're an evangelical Christian, you might be proud of this effort....but, if you're not, you'll probably be as disturbed as my friend and I, seeing children turned into "God's warriors," and discussing the fact that "martyrs for God are cool."
Jesus Camp
Jesus Camp
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Where did you see the documentary? Who did it?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Jesus Camp
Too many of these nasty little sects around, Lulu. They have nothing to do with God. They are mean, small minded, human religious constructs with inbuilt agendas to benefit the people who dreamt them up.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Jesus Camp
it's scarey. another cult on the rise............
Jesus Camp
CLINT It's playing at theaters here....take a look at the IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
I'm thinking everyone should see this little gem. It was made by two women who clearly spent time with the approval of Becky Fisher. I suppose she's proud of what she does. I call it shameless manipulation and brain-washing.
OF COURSE IT IS OK TO RAISE YOUR CHILDREN IN YOUR FAITH! (Please, Adam, don't harangue me.) This goes past gentle instruction. The children are weeping much of the time and are dealing with subjects they can't understand.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
I'm thinking everyone should see this little gem. It was made by two women who clearly spent time with the approval of Becky Fisher. I suppose she's proud of what she does. I call it shameless manipulation and brain-washing.
OF COURSE IT IS OK TO RAISE YOUR CHILDREN IN YOUR FAITH! (Please, Adam, don't harangue me.) This goes past gentle instruction. The children are weeping much of the time and are dealing with subjects they can't understand.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
There's not enough emphasis on a child's morale values in today's society. Everyone assumes that what you tell a child will stick with them forever. Children have instincts and minds of their own. I myself once believed in Santa Clause, but that doesn't mean I have based my virtues around that notion. Kids grow up and trust in their instincts, if they don't, they are thought of as weak in my opinion. Kids know right from wrong. As a child if I were subject to this crap, I would automatically deem it right or wrong, and if it were wrong then I would just simply ignore it. I ignored a lot.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: On the other hand there's the old Jesuit saying, "give me the child until he is seven and I shall give you the man."
Fact is that we are all products of our childhood.
Well, I simply believe gods will is much stronger than that.
Fact is that we are all products of our childhood.
Well, I simply believe gods will is much stronger than that.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: Fair enough - but it seems to me that human psychology will out.
Ah, but without a god would we be in the same disposition, only to be without reason and no one to blame but ourselves? Which leaves me to another question, should life be lived in fear of god or by law of man, that in which is deemed popular by majority? Its up to "you" to decide. Me? Rather like to think of life as being none other than rational thinking with rewards by thy god for good deeds, and judgement for mistakes that render no excuses.
Ah, but without a god would we be in the same disposition, only to be without reason and no one to blame but ourselves? Which leaves me to another question, should life be lived in fear of god or by law of man, that in which is deemed popular by majority? Its up to "you" to decide. Me? Rather like to think of life as being none other than rational thinking with rewards by thy god for good deeds, and judgement for mistakes that render no excuses.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: Ah reason. If there was a god (which there isn't) then reason would be one of god's gifts.
Reason is a gift from us to god for a change.
Diuretic wrote:
Life shouldn't be lived in fear from anyone or anything, it should be lived rationally though.
God isn't one, god is all. Do not worship false idols fore god is but love not thy flesh. Without fear there is no rationality fore there would be no consequence.
Diuretic wrote:
A person living as a member of a minority shouldn't be in fear from the majority simply because of the existence of that majority.
A person of minority living in a society through a justified majority shall be a minority frowned upon, thus should be given no right to voice their ill fated opinion at all. It's called integrity, and morale values based on the virtue of human instinct. You don't have to be religious, just rational. Everything else is but a gift from god.
(I respect your opinion -- this is all my views of course)
Reason is a gift from us to god for a change.
Diuretic wrote:
Life shouldn't be lived in fear from anyone or anything, it should be lived rationally though.
God isn't one, god is all. Do not worship false idols fore god is but love not thy flesh. Without fear there is no rationality fore there would be no consequence.
Diuretic wrote:
A person living as a member of a minority shouldn't be in fear from the majority simply because of the existence of that majority.
A person of minority living in a society through a justified majority shall be a minority frowned upon, thus should be given no right to voice their ill fated opinion at all. It's called integrity, and morale values based on the virtue of human instinct. You don't have to be religious, just rational. Everything else is but a gift from god.
(I respect your opinion -- this is all my views of course)
Jesus Camp
K.Snyder wrote: There's not enough emphasis on a child's morale values in today's society. Everyone assumes that what you tell a child will stick with them forever. Children have instincts and minds of their own. I myself once believed in Santa Clause, but that doesn't mean I have based my virtues around that notion. Kids grow up and trust in their instincts, if they don't, they are thought of as weak in my opinion. Kids know right from wrong. As a child if I were subject to this crap, I would automatically deem it right or wrong, and if it were wrong then I would just simply ignore it. I ignored a lot.
I think I get where you are coming from and agree with you. But it does take a great deal of strength of character to stand away from peer pressure if you're a kid and to learn to think for yourself. Whether you can dom it or not also dpends on th kind of environment you are in and how easy it is to get in touch with different views. If bible thumpers get vontrol of what is on TV and in the libraries it gets even harder.
If it were a documentary about a muslim school and alleged brainwashing would it only be getting release through the cinemas? Good question actually, when does teaching become indoctrination and control?
It's an arguement that echoes through the ages. If people reject the authority of the church and state then people decry the decline of morality in society and lack of respect and call for stricter control and punishment. Freedom isn't handed down from the pulpit or anywhere else it comes from the scruffs at the back of the queue picking their noses and refusing to do what they are told and asking what gives you the right to rule and decide what is good and evil.
As to god's law, who should get to interpret it? Priests or should the word of god be open to all for each to make up his own mind? I have no problem with god's law I do have a problem with people that think they know what it is. Not being religious I keep well away from the religious forums normally.
I think I get where you are coming from and agree with you. But it does take a great deal of strength of character to stand away from peer pressure if you're a kid and to learn to think for yourself. Whether you can dom it or not also dpends on th kind of environment you are in and how easy it is to get in touch with different views. If bible thumpers get vontrol of what is on TV and in the libraries it gets even harder.
If it were a documentary about a muslim school and alleged brainwashing would it only be getting release through the cinemas? Good question actually, when does teaching become indoctrination and control?
It's an arguement that echoes through the ages. If people reject the authority of the church and state then people decry the decline of morality in society and lack of respect and call for stricter control and punishment. Freedom isn't handed down from the pulpit or anywhere else it comes from the scruffs at the back of the queue picking their noses and refusing to do what they are told and asking what gives you the right to rule and decide what is good and evil.
As to god's law, who should get to interpret it? Priests or should the word of god be open to all for each to make up his own mind? I have no problem with god's law I do have a problem with people that think they know what it is. Not being religious I keep well away from the religious forums normally.
Jesus Camp
"If it were a documentary about a muslim school and alleged brainwashing would it only be getting release through the cinemas?"
+++++++ Actually, there've been many on television, which will draw a larger audience, I'm afraid, than the cinema release. Reasonable people are attempting to understand what compels someone to destroy themselves in an effort which won't change much of anything.
+++++++ Actually, there've been many on television, which will draw a larger audience, I'm afraid, than the cinema release. Reasonable people are attempting to understand what compels someone to destroy themselves in an effort which won't change much of anything.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Lulu2 wrote: A friend and I saw this documentary today and both of us were shaken! It centers on a camp for children run by a "childrens' minister" named Becky Fisher. The children are told lies ("science is stupid," a seven-week fetus is shown to be a perfect, miniature baby, etc,) they're manipulated with music, chanting and terror tactics. They're shown a cardboard cut-out of George Bush and told they should "bless it," and they're taught to chant about "righteous judges" on the Supreme Court.
The most genuinely scary part is when Ms. Fisher states blatantly that "democracy will destroy this country because it means we have to give everyone equal rights."
Various adults boast that they want the children to help achieve a CHRISTIAN nation and "put GOD back into government."
If you're an evangelical Christian, you might be proud of this effort....but, if you're not, you'll probably be as disturbed as my friend and I, seeing children turned into "God's warriors," and discussing the fact that "martyrs for God are cool."
That will happen over my cold dead body..
The most genuinely scary part is when Ms. Fisher states blatantly that "democracy will destroy this country because it means we have to give everyone equal rights."
Various adults boast that they want the children to help achieve a CHRISTIAN nation and "put GOD back into government."
If you're an evangelical Christian, you might be proud of this effort....but, if you're not, you'll probably be as disturbed as my friend and I, seeing children turned into "God's warriors," and discussing the fact that "martyrs for God are cool."
That will happen over my cold dead body..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Jesus Camp
Zinky, you should try to see this film. I've never heard an American citizen make a remark like that one. Quite clearly, if she's comfortable enough to have it included in this documentary, she firmly believes that "the only thing wrong with democracy is that we have to give everyone equal rights."
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Lulu2 wrote: Zinky, you should try to see this film. I've never heard an American citizen make a remark like that one. Quite clearly, if she's comfortable enough to have it included in this documentary, she firmly believes that "the only thing wrong with democracy is that we have to give everyone equal rights."
i'll watch for it..where is this camp? bum f#$K North Dakota or something? they don't sound any differenat than the Muslim madras schools. Maybe we can find an island somewhere and let all these narrow minded pinheads kill each other off..
i'll watch for it..where is this camp? bum f#$K North Dakota or something? they don't sound any differenat than the Muslim madras schools. Maybe we can find an island somewhere and let all these narrow minded pinheads kill each other off..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Jesus Camp
:wah: :wah: :wah: YES, Zinks...it IS in N. Dakota! Much of the action takes place in Kansas and Missouri. The film makes statements without words...very clever.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Jesus Camp
Lulu2 wrote: If you're an evangelical Christian, you might be proud of this effort....but, if you're not, you'll probably be as disturbed as my friend and I, seeing children turned into "God's warriors," and discussing the fact that "martyrs for God are cool."
Again, it would be as big a mistake assume all evangelical Christians are like Becky Fisher as it would to assume all gay men are like Mark Foley. I have seen previews of the film and it doesn't seem to be anything I, as an evangelical Christian, would ever be proud of. When I first heard about the film in an article, I thought maybe it was just edited to make them look fanatical. But some of the scenes in the preview made me roll my eyes and feel embarrassed for these people. Some of the stuff, ie God's warriors, is terminology used in a spiritual context not a physical and mortal one. I haven't seen the film, but I doubt seriously they are speaking in terms of a Christian jihad. And I see nothing but honor in being a martyr for Christ.....as long as we are talking about passive martyrs and not carbomb homicide "martyrs". Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs to see examples of true martyrdom.
Again, it would be as big a mistake assume all evangelical Christians are like Becky Fisher as it would to assume all gay men are like Mark Foley. I have seen previews of the film and it doesn't seem to be anything I, as an evangelical Christian, would ever be proud of. When I first heard about the film in an article, I thought maybe it was just edited to make them look fanatical. But some of the scenes in the preview made me roll my eyes and feel embarrassed for these people. Some of the stuff, ie God's warriors, is terminology used in a spiritual context not a physical and mortal one. I haven't seen the film, but I doubt seriously they are speaking in terms of a Christian jihad. And I see nothing but honor in being a martyr for Christ.....as long as we are talking about passive martyrs and not carbomb homicide "martyrs". Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs to see examples of true martyrdom.
Jesus Camp
Yes, that's the ideal, isn't it? However, some minister from a New Light Christian Church is shown discussing how Evangelicals can create a bloc vote and put their views into the Supreme Court. That's religion mixing in politics, folks.
And ADAM, notice that I said "if you are an Evangelical Christian, you MIGHT be proud of this"....
And ADAM, notice that I said "if you are an Evangelical Christian, you MIGHT be proud of this"....
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Lulu2 wrote: "If it were a documentary about a muslim school and alleged brainwashing would it only be getting release through the cinemas?"
+++++++ Actually, there've been many on television, which will draw a larger audience, I'm afraid, than the cinema release. Reasonable people are attempting to understand what compels someone to destroy themselves in an effort which won't change much of anything.
That's my point. The phenomenon is the same- religious fundamentalists wanting to take over and impose their religon on people. They're as bad is islamic fundamentalists so why not show it on mainstream TV as well? Might help people understand that islamic fundamntalists are just like the christian fundamentalist next door, one is as potentially as bad as the other. neither are really true followers of their religon.
Actually maybe extremists might be a better word than fundamentalist. I thnk here the word (fundamentalist) has a slightly different connotation from the US.
+++++++ Actually, there've been many on television, which will draw a larger audience, I'm afraid, than the cinema release. Reasonable people are attempting to understand what compels someone to destroy themselves in an effort which won't change much of anything.
That's my point. The phenomenon is the same- religious fundamentalists wanting to take over and impose their religon on people. They're as bad is islamic fundamentalists so why not show it on mainstream TV as well? Might help people understand that islamic fundamntalists are just like the christian fundamentalist next door, one is as potentially as bad as the other. neither are really true followers of their religon.
Actually maybe extremists might be a better word than fundamentalist. I thnk here the word (fundamentalist) has a slightly different connotation from the US.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Jesus Camp
gmc wrote: That's my point. The phenomenon is the same- religious fundamentalists wanting to take over and impose their religon on people. They're as bad is islamic fundamentalists so why not show it on mainstream TV as well? Might help people understand that islamic fundamntalists are just like the christian fundamentalist next door, one is as potentially as bad as the other. neither are really true followers of their religon.
Actually maybe extremists might be a better word than fundamentalist. I thnk here the word (fundamentalist) has a slightly different connotation rom the US.
At Muhammed camp they teach how to kill the infidels. Until Jesus Camp crosses that murderous abyss they are not the same. Becky Fisher may want to impose a theocracy (or maybe she is just overly zealous in her evangelism) but the odds are slim to none that she will succeed. Our system of government would have to be abolished and I don't see that happening.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assualted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
Actually maybe extremists might be a better word than fundamentalist. I thnk here the word (fundamentalist) has a slightly different connotation rom the US.
At Muhammed camp they teach how to kill the infidels. Until Jesus Camp crosses that murderous abyss they are not the same. Becky Fisher may want to impose a theocracy (or maybe she is just overly zealous in her evangelism) but the odds are slim to none that she will succeed. Our system of government would have to be abolished and I don't see that happening.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assualted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
Jesus Camp
Adam, on this very board I can show you posts where people have said "so, what's the big deal? It'll never happen..." about Muslim extremists, global warming and Christian extremists.
My comparison of this attitude to the attitudes of Europeans when Hitler was preparing HIS take-over was pooh-poohed, but I think it's valid. There is ALWAYS some group trying to impose themselves on someone else, just as there are always people willing to trash the earth for their own gain or pleasure.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Who said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilence?
My comparison of this attitude to the attitudes of Europeans when Hitler was preparing HIS take-over was pooh-poohed, but I think it's valid. There is ALWAYS some group trying to impose themselves on someone else, just as there are always people willing to trash the earth for their own gain or pleasure.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Who said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilence?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Adam Zapple wrote: At Muhammed camp they teach how to kill the infidels. Until Jesus Camp crosses that murderous abyss they are not the same. Becky Fisher may want to impose a theocracy (or maybe she is just overly zealous in her evangelism) but the odds are slim to none that she will succeed. Our system of government would have to be abolished and I don't see that happening.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assaulted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
You are right, It has not come to that point, at least not on an overwhelming majority. What we're talking about is rationality associated with religion, not religion being the base of rationality. We cannot let irrational ideals influence children manipulating what it is they should and shouldn't believe. We cannot turn simple worship into brainwashing, for one, no one is a perfect "christian", therefore imposing shouldn't be a virtue, rather shown by example. Next thing you know we have another incident like that of Waco Texas. I don't think I need to remind anyone of that. No I don't believe in martyrdom, but nore do I believe in brainwashing to the point of Christians claiming to be servants of god, yet having a stock pile of AK-47's with the intent to kill out of resentment.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assaulted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
You are right, It has not come to that point, at least not on an overwhelming majority. What we're talking about is rationality associated with religion, not religion being the base of rationality. We cannot let irrational ideals influence children manipulating what it is they should and shouldn't believe. We cannot turn simple worship into brainwashing, for one, no one is a perfect "christian", therefore imposing shouldn't be a virtue, rather shown by example. Next thing you know we have another incident like that of Waco Texas. I don't think I need to remind anyone of that. No I don't believe in martyrdom, but nore do I believe in brainwashing to the point of Christians claiming to be servants of god, yet having a stock pile of AK-47's with the intent to kill out of resentment.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Jesus Camp
LuLu wrote: There is ALWAYS some group trying to impose themselves on someone else, just as there are always people willing to trash the earth for their own gain or pleasure.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Then why do you never start threads on the actions of the Earth Liberation Front and certain animal rights groups. The FBI has cited them as being the biggest domestic terrorism threats. You are motivated by a deep disdain for religion and therefore post thread after thread relating to the danger of domestic Christianity. I guess we all do it, but let's call a spade a spade.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Then why do you never start threads on the actions of the Earth Liberation Front and certain animal rights groups. The FBI has cited them as being the biggest domestic terrorism threats. You are motivated by a deep disdain for religion and therefore post thread after thread relating to the danger of domestic Christianity. I guess we all do it, but let's call a spade a spade.
Jesus Camp
Lulu2 wrote: Adam, on this very board I can show you posts where people have said "so, what's the big deal? It'll never happen..." about Muslim extremists, global warming and Christian extremists.
My comparison of this attitude to the attitudes of Europeans when Hitler was preparing HIS take-over was pooh-poohed, but I think it's valid. There is ALWAYS some group trying to impose themselves on someone else, just as there are always people willing to trash the earth for their own gain or pleasure.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Who said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilence?
Hitler took over from inside, using the electoral system to gain a foothold and then usurped it. He had a lot of support initially especially from industrialists because of their fear of communism. What he did was tie that fear of communism, despair following ww1 and latent anti semitism to make a useful combination he could manipulate. It was a gradual process of desentising people and persauding them locking up enemies of the state without trial was a good thing to do.
Also it was not just europeans that didn't see Hitler coming, you should not forget the level of support he and his ideaology had in america even to the extent of financing the nazi party with hefty donations. In 1939 america was turning away jewish refugees sending them back to die in hitler's extermination camp. Anti semitism was every bit as rife in the US as elsewhere. The McArthy years showed the same phenomenon, jews and commiunists bundled together as enemies of the state and putting out their filthy propoganda through hollywood films except the anti semitism was less overt.
Americans are very good at pointing at hitler and saying europeans should have done something and harp on about the dangers of appeasement but forget their own history and complete indifference at the time-quite sensibly most americans didn't want to get involved in another european war. They also tend to forget WW2 started in 1939 and not 1942. Most were quite happy to see Hitler overrun europe and didn't give a toss about was happening to the jews indeed many thought they deserved it. It wasn't americans that saved europe if any nation can claim that it is the British.
If you want to learn anything from hitler it was that he was not a terrorist attacking from the outside he was an insider that learned how to work the system and exploit peole's fears, ignorance and prejudices.
It's not people attacking from outside that are dangerous to democracy and freedom it's the ones on the inside you need to worry about. Especially when they start telling you they need to have the power to arrest people without trial because they might be dangerous.
My comparison of this attitude to the attitudes of Europeans when Hitler was preparing HIS take-over was pooh-poohed, but I think it's valid. There is ALWAYS some group trying to impose themselves on someone else, just as there are always people willing to trash the earth for their own gain or pleasure.
We ignore these people at our risk.
Who said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilence?
Hitler took over from inside, using the electoral system to gain a foothold and then usurped it. He had a lot of support initially especially from industrialists because of their fear of communism. What he did was tie that fear of communism, despair following ww1 and latent anti semitism to make a useful combination he could manipulate. It was a gradual process of desentising people and persauding them locking up enemies of the state without trial was a good thing to do.
Also it was not just europeans that didn't see Hitler coming, you should not forget the level of support he and his ideaology had in america even to the extent of financing the nazi party with hefty donations. In 1939 america was turning away jewish refugees sending them back to die in hitler's extermination camp. Anti semitism was every bit as rife in the US as elsewhere. The McArthy years showed the same phenomenon, jews and commiunists bundled together as enemies of the state and putting out their filthy propoganda through hollywood films except the anti semitism was less overt.
Americans are very good at pointing at hitler and saying europeans should have done something and harp on about the dangers of appeasement but forget their own history and complete indifference at the time-quite sensibly most americans didn't want to get involved in another european war. They also tend to forget WW2 started in 1939 and not 1942. Most were quite happy to see Hitler overrun europe and didn't give a toss about was happening to the jews indeed many thought they deserved it. It wasn't americans that saved europe if any nation can claim that it is the British.
If you want to learn anything from hitler it was that he was not a terrorist attacking from the outside he was an insider that learned how to work the system and exploit peole's fears, ignorance and prejudices.
It's not people attacking from outside that are dangerous to democracy and freedom it's the ones on the inside you need to worry about. Especially when they start telling you they need to have the power to arrest people without trial because they might be dangerous.
Jesus Camp
I was going to post a crack about putting the GOD in Godernment...but wow.
good post gmc.:-6
good post gmc.:-6
Jesus Camp
gmc wrote: Hitler took over from inside, using the electoral system to gain a foothold and then usurped it. He had a lot of support initially especially from industrialists because of their fear of communism. What he did was tie that fear of communism, despair following ww1 and latent anti semitism to make a useful combination he could manipulate. It was a gradual process of desentising people and persauding them locking up enemies of the state without trial was a good thing to do.
Also it was not just europeans that didn't see Hitler coming, you should not forget the level of support he and his ideaology had in america even to the extent of financing the nazi party with hefty donations. In 1939 america was turning away jewish refugees sending them back to die in hitler's extermination camp. Anti semitism was every bit as rife in the US as elsewhere. The McArthy years showed the same phenomenon, jews and commiunists bundled together as enemies of the state and putting out their filthy propoganda through hollywood films except the anti semitism was less overt.
Americans are very good at pointing at hitler and saying europeans should have done something and harp on about the dangers of appeasement but forget their own history and complete indifference at the time-quite sensibly most americans didn't want to get involved in another european war. They also tend to forget WW2 started in 1939 and not 1942. Most were quite happy to see Hitler overrun europe and didn't give a toss about was happening to the jews indeed many thought they deserved it. It wasn't americans that saved europe if any nation can claim that it is the British.
If you want to learn anything from hitler it was that he was not a terrorist attacking from the outside he was an insider that learned how to work the system and exploit peole's fears, ignorance and prejudices.
It's not people attacking from outside that are dangerous to democracy and freedom it's the ones on the inside you need to worry about. Especially when they start telling you they need to have the power to arrest people without trial because they might be dangerous.
Yes we admit it. World War Two was entirely America's fault. Thank you Britain for saving the world.:rolleyes:
Also it was not just europeans that didn't see Hitler coming, you should not forget the level of support he and his ideaology had in america even to the extent of financing the nazi party with hefty donations. In 1939 america was turning away jewish refugees sending them back to die in hitler's extermination camp. Anti semitism was every bit as rife in the US as elsewhere. The McArthy years showed the same phenomenon, jews and commiunists bundled together as enemies of the state and putting out their filthy propoganda through hollywood films except the anti semitism was less overt.
Americans are very good at pointing at hitler and saying europeans should have done something and harp on about the dangers of appeasement but forget their own history and complete indifference at the time-quite sensibly most americans didn't want to get involved in another european war. They also tend to forget WW2 started in 1939 and not 1942. Most were quite happy to see Hitler overrun europe and didn't give a toss about was happening to the jews indeed many thought they deserved it. It wasn't americans that saved europe if any nation can claim that it is the British.
If you want to learn anything from hitler it was that he was not a terrorist attacking from the outside he was an insider that learned how to work the system and exploit peole's fears, ignorance and prejudices.
It's not people attacking from outside that are dangerous to democracy and freedom it's the ones on the inside you need to worry about. Especially when they start telling you they need to have the power to arrest people without trial because they might be dangerous.
Yes we admit it. World War Two was entirely America's fault. Thank you Britain for saving the world.:rolleyes:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Jesus Camp
it is a spectacular threadjack at that.
I was watching Mrs. Henderson recently and was struck by the reality that many Brits lived in at the time of WW2. The city on fire, if the film had any accuracy. It is something the West has not seen, living in conditions like that. I hope they never do see it in person.
I was watching Mrs. Henderson recently and was struck by the reality that many Brits lived in at the time of WW2. The city on fire, if the film had any accuracy. It is something the West has not seen, living in conditions like that. I hope they never do see it in person.
Jesus Camp
Adam Zapple wrote: At Muhammed camp they teach how to kill the infidels. Until Jesus Camp crosses that murderous abyss they are not the same. Becky Fisher may want to impose a theocracy (or maybe she is just overly zealous in her evangelism) but the odds are slim to none that she will succeed. Our system of government would have to be abolished and I don't see that happening.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assualted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/funda ... nd188.html
...why does everything have to turn into an islamic comparison? Let's take this for what it is and denounce it based on the facts of what they are doing:
Brainwashing children. The precious years of their youth are being wasted in a cult teaching them backwards ideas to further the interests of lunatics.
i consider that a crime. i consider sympathy toward it irreprehensible.
Jesus Camp wasn't funded by the government, didn't occur on government property, and attendance was voluntary. The cameras arrived with the intent of making a provocative documentary. Little wonder that we are shocked at the spectacle of these kooky Christians. But I can't help but wonder what these same kids are doing today. Waiting for a call to suicide martyrdom? Learning to use RPG's? Learning to build IED'S? Joining in the Christian street and killing anyone who dares ridicule Jesus? I'm guessing they are at home playing their X-boxes, giggling with their girlfriends on the phone, going to Friday night football games, and sneaking a smoke behind the school. What are the odds Jesus camp will impact the lives of anyone in this forum in any way? Probably not, huh? So what do we care. This camp was not near as radical or offensive as the college liberal group at Columbia that stormed a speech by the Minutemen Project, assualted the speakers and overturned the lecturn and table and chairs on stage. This is an example of extremism that affects us all becuase these students didn't just gather together and hold a pep rally, they actually invaded an auditorium and imposed their will on that assembly because they didn't like what was being said and didn't allow the Minutemen to excercise their right to free speech. But we're talking about Jesus camp. Ok.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/funda ... nd188.html
...why does everything have to turn into an islamic comparison? Let's take this for what it is and denounce it based on the facts of what they are doing:
Brainwashing children. The precious years of their youth are being wasted in a cult teaching them backwards ideas to further the interests of lunatics.
i consider that a crime. i consider sympathy toward it irreprehensible.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: I didn't read that in gmc's post at all.
It's a simple fact that before Pearl Harbor the policy of the US was isolationist.
Let me say right now that I'm not attributing any sort of morality to it, it was simply what suited the US and I believe gmc has indicated that as well.
WW2, before Japan decided to get involved with the US (I'm not ignoring Japanese imperialism in China and other parts of Asia), was a European war and no doubt the US saw it that way and decided its interests weren't threatened and it had no need to get involved.
Foreign policy of any country is all about self-interest and not altruism so again I'm not saying it was "bad" - it was rational policy from a US point of view.
Britain did indeed stand almost alone against Hitler. Britain defended successfully against German aggression - the Battle of Britain was a close thing though, if the Germans were a bit smarter they may have defeated Britain in that invasion. They didn't so they then set about a bombing campaign, you may know it as "The Blitz", intended to break Britain. It didn't but again it was very close.
And just to make the point about lack of altruism, remember the US sold materiel to Britain to defend herself against Germany and other enemies (the Brits and other Commonwealth countries were in the Asia and Pacific theatres of war as well as Europe) and Britain was still paying off that debt years after the end of WW2.
You get snippy when you think a Brit claims that Britain saved the world, I get the same when I read an American claiming that the US saved the world. Both ideas are simplistic.
Now after this spectacular threadjack, back to normal programming
I get snippy when people go off thread to take a shot at the US. If you two want to talk about WW2 why don't you start a thread on it?
It's a simple fact that before Pearl Harbor the policy of the US was isolationist.
Let me say right now that I'm not attributing any sort of morality to it, it was simply what suited the US and I believe gmc has indicated that as well.
WW2, before Japan decided to get involved with the US (I'm not ignoring Japanese imperialism in China and other parts of Asia), was a European war and no doubt the US saw it that way and decided its interests weren't threatened and it had no need to get involved.
Foreign policy of any country is all about self-interest and not altruism so again I'm not saying it was "bad" - it was rational policy from a US point of view.
Britain did indeed stand almost alone against Hitler. Britain defended successfully against German aggression - the Battle of Britain was a close thing though, if the Germans were a bit smarter they may have defeated Britain in that invasion. They didn't so they then set about a bombing campaign, you may know it as "The Blitz", intended to break Britain. It didn't but again it was very close.
And just to make the point about lack of altruism, remember the US sold materiel to Britain to defend herself against Germany and other enemies (the Brits and other Commonwealth countries were in the Asia and Pacific theatres of war as well as Europe) and Britain was still paying off that debt years after the end of WW2.
You get snippy when you think a Brit claims that Britain saved the world, I get the same when I read an American claiming that the US saved the world. Both ideas are simplistic.
Now after this spectacular threadjack, back to normal programming
I get snippy when people go off thread to take a shot at the US. If you two want to talk about WW2 why don't you start a thread on it?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: Anything that teaches children to close their minds is disgraceful.
right on
right on
Jesus Camp
it makes me frustrated to see a valid issue turned into a lesser of the evils debate :-5
Jesus Camp
Adam, Adam, Adam "Then why do you never start threads on the actions of the Earth Liberation Front and certain animal rights groups. The FBI has cited them as being the biggest domestic terrorism threats. You are motivated by a deep disdain for religion and therefore post thread after thread relating to the danger of domestic Christianity. I guess we all do it, but let's call a spade a spade."
++++++ Well, Adam, I've never seen any news blurbs about the Earth Liberation Front, and "certain animal rights groups." And I'm not on the email list of the FBI.
I'm very sorry you feel that I'm "motivated by a deep disdain for religion." I've OFTEN said that many beloved members of my family were/are Christian and that I respect their faith.
Disdain means "1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise"
Not applicable, Adam.
My deeply beloved Grandmother taught me to be a "Christian" and, although I've come to disregard the religious principles behind her codes, I've always believed in their "righteousness" from a sensible humanistic principle. If only people who profess to love Jesus would try to live out his principles!
Let's DO call "a spade a spade" and I'll say this: I'm very afraid of the "uber-religious, Christians who regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise those who make it clear that they want the rest of us to believe and be subjected to THEIR code of behavior.
Those Christians who decide that THEIR belief about science should be MY belief about science and those Christians who decide that THEIR belief about womens' rights should be MY belief about womens' rights.....those are the ones I find very scary!
Yes...SCARY! Because, my friend, if you really observe your fellow evangelicals....you'll have to be honest and admit that they want to convert the rest of us to their beliefs.
Yes. Tell the truth.
++++++ Well, Adam, I've never seen any news blurbs about the Earth Liberation Front, and "certain animal rights groups." And I'm not on the email list of the FBI.
I'm very sorry you feel that I'm "motivated by a deep disdain for religion." I've OFTEN said that many beloved members of my family were/are Christian and that I respect their faith.
Disdain means "1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise"
Not applicable, Adam.
My deeply beloved Grandmother taught me to be a "Christian" and, although I've come to disregard the religious principles behind her codes, I've always believed in their "righteousness" from a sensible humanistic principle. If only people who profess to love Jesus would try to live out his principles!
Let's DO call "a spade a spade" and I'll say this: I'm very afraid of the "uber-religious, Christians who regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise those who make it clear that they want the rest of us to believe and be subjected to THEIR code of behavior.
Those Christians who decide that THEIR belief about science should be MY belief about science and those Christians who decide that THEIR belief about womens' rights should be MY belief about womens' rights.....those are the ones I find very scary!
Yes...SCARY! Because, my friend, if you really observe your fellow evangelicals....you'll have to be honest and admit that they want to convert the rest of us to their beliefs.
Yes. Tell the truth.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
-
Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Jesus Camp
ARgi wrote: ...why does everything have to turn into an islamic comparison?
Because certain posters constantly compare my beliefs with those of the Taliban and Islamofascists and I will challenge them on it.
ARgi wrote: Brainwashing children. The precious years of their youth are being wasted in a cult teaching them backwards ideas to further the interests of lunatics.
Pretty provocative comments. I'm at a disadvantage since I haven't seen the film as you apparently have. I don't know anything about Jesus Camp or Becky Fischer. I am not an apologist. I have googled some since this thread appeared and I don't think I would much like to be associated with her but I've found no evidence that this is a cult nor that they are as dangerous as Islamic terrorist, a claim that prompted me to enter this thread. I also have little doubt this movie is sensationalized and edited to create a certain effect. The result, whether intended or not, is to increase hatred and intolerance toward evangelicals. LuLu, that's something that scares me. ARgi, would you please expound on these comments. Do you think all religious teaching is brainwashing with backwards ideas or is this an isolated example? What part of Fischer's teachings do you consider to be brainwashing? Define lunatic in this context. I ask those things so that it might clarify your next statement:
ARgi wrote: i consider that a crime. i consider sympathy toward it irreprehensible.
I'm just wondering if you are implying that all evangelical christians are reprehensible for brainwashing their children with backwards, lunatic ideas.
LuLu wrote: Disdain means "1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise"
Not applicable, Adam.
Entirely applicable, Lu. I have known you for several years and you know I have genuine affection for you but truth be told one thing you have never done is show respect for my faith. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. Around you I am in constant defense mode and it is tiring. There are times when I might otherwise be in agreement with you(such as Jesus Camp - I'm positive I would have deep disagreements with some of Fischers methods and rhetoric) but your constant comparisons of people of my faith to the Taliban makes me take the defensive. These statements are extreme and have no basis in reality.
LuLu wrote: Yes...SCARY! Because, my friend, if you really observe your fellow evangelicals....you'll have to be honest and admit that they want to convert the rest of us to their beliefs.
That's what evangelical means. But in what way are you forced to accept their beliefs? Do we really want to get into all the ways that beliefs contrary to mine are forced down my throat on a daily basis? You've often claimed that you don't care what religious people do as long as they don't do it on your dime or on government property. Apparently you do. Forget it, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith. But as a final suggestion before I slink off under my rock, please consider your words carefully. Plug in different minority groups into the equation and determine whether you would use rhetoric like that against gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc. If it stills seems appropriate then by all means post away. I don't mind being challenged, in fact I like it. I don't mind reading criticisms of ideas and beliefs I hold to be true. It helps me to continue to evaluate my position and hones my ideas. But I tire of being insulted day after day. There is a difference between criticizing the specific methods of a singular religious camp (entirely legitimate if you've seen the film and know what you are talking about) and blindly insulting whole groups of religious people.
You may not like Becky Fischer and her Jesus Camp and you may have some perfectly valid reasons for feeling so, but if you really think Jesus Camp is a threat to our democracy then you have whipped yourself into an irrational frenzy over nothing. We have had fire and brimstone tent revivals and religious summer camps almost as long as our republic has existed and yet our democracy continues to prevail. Despite all the fear and gnashing of teeth over twelve year old Jesus jihadists, tomorrow the sun will shine and in six months no one will remember Jesus Camp. Oh well, ya'll have a nice night.
Because certain posters constantly compare my beliefs with those of the Taliban and Islamofascists and I will challenge them on it.
ARgi wrote: Brainwashing children. The precious years of their youth are being wasted in a cult teaching them backwards ideas to further the interests of lunatics.
Pretty provocative comments. I'm at a disadvantage since I haven't seen the film as you apparently have. I don't know anything about Jesus Camp or Becky Fischer. I am not an apologist. I have googled some since this thread appeared and I don't think I would much like to be associated with her but I've found no evidence that this is a cult nor that they are as dangerous as Islamic terrorist, a claim that prompted me to enter this thread. I also have little doubt this movie is sensationalized and edited to create a certain effect. The result, whether intended or not, is to increase hatred and intolerance toward evangelicals. LuLu, that's something that scares me. ARgi, would you please expound on these comments. Do you think all religious teaching is brainwashing with backwards ideas or is this an isolated example? What part of Fischer's teachings do you consider to be brainwashing? Define lunatic in this context. I ask those things so that it might clarify your next statement:
ARgi wrote: i consider that a crime. i consider sympathy toward it irreprehensible.
I'm just wondering if you are implying that all evangelical christians are reprehensible for brainwashing their children with backwards, lunatic ideas.
LuLu wrote: Disdain means "1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise"
Not applicable, Adam.
Entirely applicable, Lu. I have known you for several years and you know I have genuine affection for you but truth be told one thing you have never done is show respect for my faith. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. Around you I am in constant defense mode and it is tiring. There are times when I might otherwise be in agreement with you(such as Jesus Camp - I'm positive I would have deep disagreements with some of Fischers methods and rhetoric) but your constant comparisons of people of my faith to the Taliban makes me take the defensive. These statements are extreme and have no basis in reality.
LuLu wrote: Yes...SCARY! Because, my friend, if you really observe your fellow evangelicals....you'll have to be honest and admit that they want to convert the rest of us to their beliefs.
That's what evangelical means. But in what way are you forced to accept their beliefs? Do we really want to get into all the ways that beliefs contrary to mine are forced down my throat on a daily basis? You've often claimed that you don't care what religious people do as long as they don't do it on your dime or on government property. Apparently you do. Forget it, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith. But as a final suggestion before I slink off under my rock, please consider your words carefully. Plug in different minority groups into the equation and determine whether you would use rhetoric like that against gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc. If it stills seems appropriate then by all means post away. I don't mind being challenged, in fact I like it. I don't mind reading criticisms of ideas and beliefs I hold to be true. It helps me to continue to evaluate my position and hones my ideas. But I tire of being insulted day after day. There is a difference between criticizing the specific methods of a singular religious camp (entirely legitimate if you've seen the film and know what you are talking about) and blindly insulting whole groups of religious people.
You may not like Becky Fischer and her Jesus Camp and you may have some perfectly valid reasons for feeling so, but if you really think Jesus Camp is a threat to our democracy then you have whipped yourself into an irrational frenzy over nothing. We have had fire and brimstone tent revivals and religious summer camps almost as long as our republic has existed and yet our democracy continues to prevail. Despite all the fear and gnashing of teeth over twelve year old Jesus jihadists, tomorrow the sun will shine and in six months no one will remember Jesus Camp. Oh well, ya'll have a nice night.
Jesus Camp
zinkyusa wrote: I get snippy when people go off thread to take a shot at the US. If you two want to talk about WW2 why don't you start a thread on it?
posted by koan
it is a spectacular threadjack at that.
I was actually reponding to someone equating the threat posed by islamic terrorism with that posed by hitler, a comparison I find ridiculous. As you will all hopefully appreciate it's rather difficult to talk about Hitler without mentioning WW2. The British saved the world, we all know that, you've just been watching too many hollywood war films:sneaky:
I also get fed up with americans assuming that every post is aimed at criticising them regardless of the actual content of the said post. Such oversensitivity is irritating. Try and adopt a more British attitude, say to yourself "who gives a FUI*(^ what a bunch of foreigners think" every time you read a post that you find annoying. With a bit of practice you will find yourself being less upset at imagined slights.
posted by Adam Zapple
That's what evangelical means. But in what way are you forced to accept their beliefs? Do we really want to get into all the ways that beliefs contrary to mine are forced down my throat on a daily basis? You've often claimed that you don't care what religious people do as long as they don't do it on your dime or on government property. Apparently you do. Forget it, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith. But as a final suggestion before I slink off under my rock, please consider your words carefully. Plug in different minority groups into the equation and determine whether you would use rhetoric like that against gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc. If it stills seems appropriate then by all means post away. I don't mind being challenged, in fact I like it. I don't mind reading criticisms of ideas and beliefs I hold to be true. It helps me to continue to evaluate my position and hones my ideas. But I tire of being insulted day after day. There is a difference between criticizing the specific methods of a singular religious camp (entirely legitimate if you've seen the film and know what you are talking about) and blindly insulting whole groups of religious people.
Moderate christians perhaps have the same problem that moderate muslims have. Extremists are getting them a bad name and they are getting lumped together.
I find it reprehensible that because of islamic extremists all muslims are being condemned.
I would also find it reprehensible if all evangelical christians were demonised becauseof the actions of people like those in jesus camp (I haven't seen it by the way)
It seems you can't talk to a muslim about islamic funfdamentalists without being accused of condemning all muslims. It also seems you can't talk to christians about christian fundamantalists without being accused of condemning all christians.
I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith.
Potentially some christian fundamentalists are evry bit as big a problem as islamic fundamentalists. That is not to condemn or condone either religon-or any religon come to that. There are nutters on the fringes of society, some find an oulet in religon some in politics (try talking to a revolutionary socialist -we do still have them, they don't frighten anyone any more they're like some kind of exotic pet nowadays). Most peole are quite happy just living their lives ad leaving averyone else to get on with theirs.
It's only in unusual circumstances that they grow in numbers and actually become dangerous because they gain more and more credence. It becomes a problem if you can't get beyond the religon and look at other reasons for them getting anywhere at all.
The current terrorism isn't just caused by religon it's also politics, economics past history and a whole raft of issues becoming focused on one thing. To see it simply in black and white, them bad us good, is not going to solve things any time soon and just make things worse.
It's also dangerous when you cannot be critical of the govt approach to the war on terror without being accused of being in support of terrorists. That isn't discussion that is an attempt at control and making people afraid to dissent. If not speaking out becomes a habit we are all in trouble. That is a far greater threat to western democracy that anything a fundamentalist terrorist is going to be able to do. So is giving authorities the right to arbitrarily arrest people or spy on everybody as they see fit. Freedom is taken and kept from below not handed down from those in power. It needs to be protected from those in power not guarded by them. "Trust us we will keep you free" must be one of the all time cons any politician can try.
posted by Zinkyusa
Maybe we can find an island somewhere and let all these narrow minded pinheads kill each other off..
Oh yes let's. But I expect they would claim everone is just irrationally prejudiced against them and they have a right to say what they like.
posted by koan
it is a spectacular threadjack at that.
I was actually reponding to someone equating the threat posed by islamic terrorism with that posed by hitler, a comparison I find ridiculous. As you will all hopefully appreciate it's rather difficult to talk about Hitler without mentioning WW2. The British saved the world, we all know that, you've just been watching too many hollywood war films:sneaky:
I also get fed up with americans assuming that every post is aimed at criticising them regardless of the actual content of the said post. Such oversensitivity is irritating. Try and adopt a more British attitude, say to yourself "who gives a FUI*(^ what a bunch of foreigners think" every time you read a post that you find annoying. With a bit of practice you will find yourself being less upset at imagined slights.
posted by Adam Zapple
That's what evangelical means. But in what way are you forced to accept their beliefs? Do we really want to get into all the ways that beliefs contrary to mine are forced down my throat on a daily basis? You've often claimed that you don't care what religious people do as long as they don't do it on your dime or on government property. Apparently you do. Forget it, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith. But as a final suggestion before I slink off under my rock, please consider your words carefully. Plug in different minority groups into the equation and determine whether you would use rhetoric like that against gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc. If it stills seems appropriate then by all means post away. I don't mind being challenged, in fact I like it. I don't mind reading criticisms of ideas and beliefs I hold to be true. It helps me to continue to evaluate my position and hones my ideas. But I tire of being insulted day after day. There is a difference between criticizing the specific methods of a singular religious camp (entirely legitimate if you've seen the film and know what you are talking about) and blindly insulting whole groups of religious people.
Moderate christians perhaps have the same problem that moderate muslims have. Extremists are getting them a bad name and they are getting lumped together.
I find it reprehensible that because of islamic extremists all muslims are being condemned.
I would also find it reprehensible if all evangelical christians were demonised becauseof the actions of people like those in jesus camp (I haven't seen it by the way)
It seems you can't talk to a muslim about islamic funfdamentalists without being accused of condemning all muslims. It also seems you can't talk to christians about christian fundamantalists without being accused of condemning all christians.
I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not going to break through anyone's barrier of prejudice and intolerance toward people of faith.
Potentially some christian fundamentalists are evry bit as big a problem as islamic fundamentalists. That is not to condemn or condone either religon-or any religon come to that. There are nutters on the fringes of society, some find an oulet in religon some in politics (try talking to a revolutionary socialist -we do still have them, they don't frighten anyone any more they're like some kind of exotic pet nowadays). Most peole are quite happy just living their lives ad leaving averyone else to get on with theirs.
It's only in unusual circumstances that they grow in numbers and actually become dangerous because they gain more and more credence. It becomes a problem if you can't get beyond the religon and look at other reasons for them getting anywhere at all.
The current terrorism isn't just caused by religon it's also politics, economics past history and a whole raft of issues becoming focused on one thing. To see it simply in black and white, them bad us good, is not going to solve things any time soon and just make things worse.
It's also dangerous when you cannot be critical of the govt approach to the war on terror without being accused of being in support of terrorists. That isn't discussion that is an attempt at control and making people afraid to dissent. If not speaking out becomes a habit we are all in trouble. That is a far greater threat to western democracy that anything a fundamentalist terrorist is going to be able to do. So is giving authorities the right to arbitrarily arrest people or spy on everybody as they see fit. Freedom is taken and kept from below not handed down from those in power. It needs to be protected from those in power not guarded by them. "Trust us we will keep you free" must be one of the all time cons any politician can try.
posted by Zinkyusa
Maybe we can find an island somewhere and let all these narrow minded pinheads kill each other off..
Oh yes let's. But I expect they would claim everone is just irrationally prejudiced against them and they have a right to say what they like.
Jesus Camp
Diuretic asks: "Serious question - if somewhat provocative - why should anyone expect that anyone else should respect their religious beliefs? I'm not arguing that anyone should be prohibited from practising their religion (provided such practising doesn't breach secular laws) but why should anyone expect, almost automatically, that their religious beliefs should be respected?"
+++++++++ This is a fine question, IMHO. Suppose my religion is Santeria and I routinely slaughter animals and chant to voodoo gods. Suppose Diuretic's having a dinner party and I casually drop this fact at the table. Would you all feel "respect" for my religious views? Would you all act "respectfully" toward me? What would you be thinking?
Is it "disrespectful" to air views on a discussion board? Would you all keep silent when I discuss my latest sacrificial rite?
I learned reading this thread that I've offended ADAM and I honestly have no intentions of doing that. HOWEVER, if I honestly see comparisons between Christian extremists and Taliban extremists and I say so (NOT comparing ADAM or his congregation to those extremists, by the way,) am I being disrespectful?
Many people are passionately against the church-as-part-of-the-state issue. I'm infuriated when I hear of courtrooms which contain copies of the Christian commandments (only two of which are actually illegal in this country, I believe) and hear people defend their right to be there.
When I'm speaking against this issue, am I disrespectful of or "bashing" Christians? Is it possible that people who are religious tend to view that practice as being above reproach and take offence if anyone even rightfully criticizes something?
If I cornered Adam, grabbed his collar and began to tell him what's WRONG with his religion, I'd be boorish and disrespectful, no question about it. Is it equally disrespectful when someone approaches me or knocks at my door and attempts to convert me to their faith?
Finally, ADAM, please understand that I have never intended to offend you nor have I ever even MENTALLY included you in the "extremist" category. If you took that meaning, then I'm sorry and I hope you'll accept this.
+++++++++ This is a fine question, IMHO. Suppose my religion is Santeria and I routinely slaughter animals and chant to voodoo gods. Suppose Diuretic's having a dinner party and I casually drop this fact at the table. Would you all feel "respect" for my religious views? Would you all act "respectfully" toward me? What would you be thinking?
Is it "disrespectful" to air views on a discussion board? Would you all keep silent when I discuss my latest sacrificial rite?
I learned reading this thread that I've offended ADAM and I honestly have no intentions of doing that. HOWEVER, if I honestly see comparisons between Christian extremists and Taliban extremists and I say so (NOT comparing ADAM or his congregation to those extremists, by the way,) am I being disrespectful?
Many people are passionately against the church-as-part-of-the-state issue. I'm infuriated when I hear of courtrooms which contain copies of the Christian commandments (only two of which are actually illegal in this country, I believe) and hear people defend their right to be there.
When I'm speaking against this issue, am I disrespectful of or "bashing" Christians? Is it possible that people who are religious tend to view that practice as being above reproach and take offence if anyone even rightfully criticizes something?
If I cornered Adam, grabbed his collar and began to tell him what's WRONG with his religion, I'd be boorish and disrespectful, no question about it. Is it equally disrespectful when someone approaches me or knocks at my door and attempts to convert me to their faith?
Finally, ADAM, please understand that I have never intended to offend you nor have I ever even MENTALLY included you in the "extremist" category. If you took that meaning, then I'm sorry and I hope you'll accept this.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
Well whatever the case may be, the simple fact of the matter is (whether we want to admit it or not), is that religion is just another opinion of many in human philosophy, thus shouldn't be imposed on anyone. Even if that very same religion is what we happen to believe as being the most morally just. Like anything involving an opinion, it should be shown through example, leaving everyone else to judge for themselves based on their own morale values associated with human instinct.
(My opinion)
(My opinion)
Jesus Camp
Diuretic wrote: Serious question - if somewhat provocative - why should anyone expect that anyone else should respect their religious beliefs? I'm not arguing that anyone should be prohibited from practising their religion (provided such practising doesn't breach secular laws) but why should anyone expect, almost automatically, that their religious beliefs should be respected?
I think that's a brilliant question! I was thinking just that yesterday, over the hoo-hah in the UK about a minister saying he preferred Muslim women to take off the full veil when visiting his offices so that he could see them when talking to them.
My view is really simple. No one has the right to have their beliefs and views respected if respected means "unchallenged, uncriticised and occasionally mocked".
I have the right to think and say what I like about other religions, as other people have the right to do so about mine. After all, not one single solitary soul on this planet knows what life and death is about ; we may choose to believe certain ideologies - but we're equally as ignorant of the "truth" (supposing there is one truth) as each other.
Even if someone were to gratuituously slate my religion, so what? Does it injure me bodily, mentally, emotionally ? Harm my property? Make me doubt myself? Cause me to want to hurt them in return?
Nope. It just makes me shrug and say "So what?" An opinion is an opinion - no more or less.
Religious fanaticism of the kind we see all over the world is the greatest threat to peace and security that we have.
I think that's a brilliant question! I was thinking just that yesterday, over the hoo-hah in the UK about a minister saying he preferred Muslim women to take off the full veil when visiting his offices so that he could see them when talking to them.
My view is really simple. No one has the right to have their beliefs and views respected if respected means "unchallenged, uncriticised and occasionally mocked".
I have the right to think and say what I like about other religions, as other people have the right to do so about mine. After all, not one single solitary soul on this planet knows what life and death is about ; we may choose to believe certain ideologies - but we're equally as ignorant of the "truth" (supposing there is one truth) as each other.
Even if someone were to gratuituously slate my religion, so what? Does it injure me bodily, mentally, emotionally ? Harm my property? Make me doubt myself? Cause me to want to hurt them in return?
Nope. It just makes me shrug and say "So what?" An opinion is an opinion - no more or less.
Religious fanaticism of the kind we see all over the world is the greatest threat to peace and security that we have.
Jesus Camp
YAVANNA, there was an incident in this country when a woman SUED the State of Florida for the right to have her driver's license photo taken while she was heavily veiled! She lost, finally, but it was a big flapdoodle/RELIGIOUS FREEDOM-type issue. Imagine it...what is the purpose of a driver's license photo? How could you accomplish that purpose if someone's heavily veiled?
IT WAS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE! But she pushed for her "religious rights" anyway. How can any reasonable person respect that attitude?
IT WAS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE! But she pushed for her "religious rights" anyway. How can any reasonable person respect that attitude?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
And yet, there're people who'd stamp their feet and demand respect for THEIR religious observance. (Hi, Pinkster!)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Jesus Camp
(Don't a girls bits & bobs get cold, Pinks?)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay