but now it is in your post as Spot, I should be shot, there I am a poet and I have just decreed that there are no longer any churches in the world, everybody stay home on whatever day you usually go to church.
No wories my post is deleted;)
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weber wrote: Thanks Zinky
but now it is in your post as Spot, I should be shot, there I am a poet and I have just decreed that there are no longer any churches in the world, everybody stay home on whatever day you usually go to church.
No wories my post is deleted;)
but now it is in your post as Spot, I should be shot, there I am a poet and I have just decreed that there are no longer any churches in the world, everybody stay home on whatever day you usually go to church.
No wories my post is deleted;)
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
I think all criticism of the Catholic Church in regards to its record on sexual abuse is justified as it is appalling and can't be defended, but knocking Catholicism as a religion because of it is just opportunisitic, the Catholic relgion is no better or worse than any other organized religion and a lot of Catholic moral teaching and philosophy is to be lauded. I was raised as a Catholic, and yet I feel as free to think for myself as anyone else. And I was not taught to be intolerant towards other faiths. My own inclinations are not religious at all, but I don't feel any problem in going into church and having a minute away from the world, as although I don't really believe that Benedict XVI is gods representative on earth, Catholics going to church and hearing a message about spirituality and religion is the same as Muslims going to a mosque, or Jews observing the Sabbath, or wiccan's celebrating harvest festival. Almost all people express a belief in the divine nature of the world in some form or another and usually through some religion, if it wasn't a basic human been people wouldn't do it. There is a deep core of spirituality in all major religions, Catholicism included, and its facile to portray it as a big club full of brainwashed members (700 million) whose purpose is to hide paedophile priest and give some bloke in rome a big job. There are sexual deviants in all walks of life, and although yes, having a celibate prisethood is obviously a souce of problems, recent revelations in Congress in the U.S. remind us that their is plenty of hypocrisy and cover-ups in other organizations as well.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weber wrote: Poppycock, Weeder:rolleyes:
How can you possibly say poppycock? What is it that I wrote that rings untrue to you?
How can you possibly say poppycock? What is it that I wrote that rings untrue to you?
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The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
[QUOTE=rainbowsmiles]Weeder,
Why are you lumping a few into a whole sum?
Do you know every priest, do you know their intentions when they entered into a vow of celibacy? Do you know their faith? I find it odd that you seem to know so much about these people - especially when you don't know each one individually.
I left the church and no longer consider myself labelled. But I think anyone who would make blank statements about the church (any church) and their followers are just as ignorant as those who think their religion is the only "right" and that those who do not practice are the evil ones. Your judging an entire group of people based on a few - do you do that with everything in your life?
You find it odd? You havent read enough responses of mine on any topic to deem whatever conclusion I come to as ODD. Ive known my share of priests, and nuns to have come to a conclusion. I find it odd that anyone would align themselves with an organization whose reputation for cover ups involving the sexual abuse of children is well documented and continues. And i do not promote any religion.
Why are you lumping a few into a whole sum?
Do you know every priest, do you know their intentions when they entered into a vow of celibacy? Do you know their faith? I find it odd that you seem to know so much about these people - especially when you don't know each one individually. I left the church and no longer consider myself labelled. But I think anyone who would make blank statements about the church (any church) and their followers are just as ignorant as those who think their religion is the only "right" and that those who do not practice are the evil ones. Your judging an entire group of people based on a few - do you do that with everything in your life?
You find it odd? You havent read enough responses of mine on any topic to deem whatever conclusion I come to as ODD. Ive known my share of priests, and nuns to have come to a conclusion. I find it odd that anyone would align themselves with an organization whose reputation for cover ups involving the sexual abuse of children is well documented and continues. And i do not promote any religion.
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The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
spot wrote: Were I as determinedly pedantic and superior as you assert, I'd have brought up the vexed question of apostrophes. Since I haven't (in the face, I might say, of astounding provocation from one whom I'm sure knows their exact application) I feel your claim lacks substance.
It's 'who', not 'whom'. Emphasis all mine.
It's 'who', not 'whom'. Emphasis all mine.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
zinkyusa wrote: are you speaking to me in tongues dear girl?
Girl? hehehehe!
Girl? hehehehe!
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
cherandbuster wrote: May I ask why your profile is private?
You certainly may!
You certainly may!
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weber wrote: Astila
You have got to stop your trampling of the Roman Catholic Church. No church is perfect. All churches have their hidden agenda of sins. The Catholic Church just happens to be the largest and a good target. You continue your tasteless diabolical attack of the Catholic Church and all you do is bury yourself. No one ever became famous or loved by doing what you are doing. I personally think you are behaving in a disgusting manner that would be worthy of a click of the little red and white button. Sooner or later someone is going to do it. It won't be me because I won't lower myself to your level.
Basically, I think you should do what you must. And after you have done that, explain the following to me.
Let's start with the pointy head of the church and work our way down the ladder of heresies, for a bit of revelation:
"The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth..." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power. Corpus Juris, chap. 1, column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.' Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision....Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." Augustinus Triumphus, in Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.
Now, all you have to do is find the decretals that nullify the above and we're all set.
You have got to stop your trampling of the Roman Catholic Church. No church is perfect. All churches have their hidden agenda of sins. The Catholic Church just happens to be the largest and a good target. You continue your tasteless diabolical attack of the Catholic Church and all you do is bury yourself. No one ever became famous or loved by doing what you are doing. I personally think you are behaving in a disgusting manner that would be worthy of a click of the little red and white button. Sooner or later someone is going to do it. It won't be me because I won't lower myself to your level.
Basically, I think you should do what you must. And after you have done that, explain the following to me.
Let's start with the pointy head of the church and work our way down the ladder of heresies, for a bit of revelation:
"The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth..." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power. Corpus Juris, chap. 1, column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.' Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision....Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." Augustinus Triumphus, in Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.
Now, all you have to do is find the decretals that nullify the above and we're all set.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Diuretic wrote: It seems to me there are a few issues here.
The first is that child-abusers are attracted to positions in society that given them contact with and control over children. That being so then organisations that have those positions need to carefully screen recruits to ensure that potential child-abusers are not admitted, if that's practical.
The second is the behaviour of organisations that find they have child-abusers in their midst. If they try to cover up the behaviour and protect the offenders simply to avoid embarrassment, lawsuits etc then they deserve the strongest condemnation and indeed criminal prosecution, whoever they are.
Religion per se has nothing to do with this.
Well-said!
The first is that child-abusers are attracted to positions in society that given them contact with and control over children. That being so then organisations that have those positions need to carefully screen recruits to ensure that potential child-abusers are not admitted, if that's practical.
The second is the behaviour of organisations that find they have child-abusers in their midst. If they try to cover up the behaviour and protect the offenders simply to avoid embarrassment, lawsuits etc then they deserve the strongest condemnation and indeed criminal prosecution, whoever they are.
Religion per se has nothing to do with this.
Well-said!
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Atsila wrote: Basically, I think you should do what you must. And after you have done that, explain the following to me.
Let's start with the pointy head of the church and work our way down the ladder of heresies, for a bit of revelation:
"The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth..." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power. Corpus Juris, chap. 1, column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.' Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision....Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." Augustinus Triumphus, in Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.
Now, all you have to do is find the decretals that nullify the above and we're all set.
Yes thats a good summation of Catholic dogma on Papal infallibility, and like you I find it laughable, (so obviously I'm not the best Catholic in the world) but then its no more laughable than saying that Jesus Christ was god incarnate, that every single passage in the Bible is the literal truth of God, or that the Koran is the only source of absolute Truth in the World, or that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, or that the God of Israel was actually housed inside the Arc of the Covenant, or that the Divine Jupiter was present in his Temple on the Capitoline hill in Rome, etc etc. Maybe one of these ideas is true, or maybe they are all true, or maybe they are nonsense. In other words, no religion has a monopoly on either truth or stupidity, you seem to have a paticular beef with Catholicism, but I don't see how its own particular religious ideas are any less credible or credulous than any others.
If you want to talk about specific abuses in the Catholic Church thats fine, because those things have real meaning, and yes ultimately the Catholic hierarchy are complicit in covering up the indefensible and criminal actions of deviants within the priesthood, and I think that ultimately they will be held to account, as they are not above civil law in any country, including Italy. But thats the failing of the humans in the church and its arcane organization and ideas, its not the fault of the basic religious teaching of Catholicism, which as far as I can remember does not encourage or give sanction to the molestation of children by anyone. The problem is not Catholic teaching, its the inability of many people within the Catholic church to actually follow their own moral Christian code, which they claim to profess.
Let's start with the pointy head of the church and work our way down the ladder of heresies, for a bit of revelation:
"The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth..." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power. Corpus Juris, chap. 1, column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.' Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision....Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." Augustinus Triumphus, in Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.
Now, all you have to do is find the decretals that nullify the above and we're all set.
Yes thats a good summation of Catholic dogma on Papal infallibility, and like you I find it laughable, (so obviously I'm not the best Catholic in the world) but then its no more laughable than saying that Jesus Christ was god incarnate, that every single passage in the Bible is the literal truth of God, or that the Koran is the only source of absolute Truth in the World, or that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, or that the God of Israel was actually housed inside the Arc of the Covenant, or that the Divine Jupiter was present in his Temple on the Capitoline hill in Rome, etc etc. Maybe one of these ideas is true, or maybe they are all true, or maybe they are nonsense. In other words, no religion has a monopoly on either truth or stupidity, you seem to have a paticular beef with Catholicism, but I don't see how its own particular religious ideas are any less credible or credulous than any others.
If you want to talk about specific abuses in the Catholic Church thats fine, because those things have real meaning, and yes ultimately the Catholic hierarchy are complicit in covering up the indefensible and criminal actions of deviants within the priesthood, and I think that ultimately they will be held to account, as they are not above civil law in any country, including Italy. But thats the failing of the humans in the church and its arcane organization and ideas, its not the fault of the basic religious teaching of Catholicism, which as far as I can remember does not encourage or give sanction to the molestation of children by anyone. The problem is not Catholic teaching, its the inability of many people within the Catholic church to actually follow their own moral Christian code, which they claim to profess.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
zinkyusa wrote: one can only hope they are changing...
One can demand they prosecute.
One can demand they prosecute.
I AM AWESOME MAN
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weeder wrote: How can you possibly say poppycock? What is it that I wrote that rings untrue to you?
She has no clue weeder..
She has no clue weeder..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
-
rainbowsmiles
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 pm
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Atsila -
All All All will get what they deserve, God does and will repay. You can read about it in the Bible and be amazed by HIS patience and longsuffering.
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
No one here is condoning the actions of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in their handling of the pedophile priests - at least I haven't read anything of the sort yet.
Sexual abuse exists everywhere and priests DO get charged (try google again) I did, and I found quite a few priests arrested and those awaiting trial.
The point shouldn’t be why priests aren’t serving time for molestation - the point should be WHY AREN’T ALL MOLESTERS SERVING TIME? This atrocity is everywhere! I read about it daily in the freaken paper. Pedophiles get a slap on the hand. My sister was molested as a child and her abuser got 3 MONTHS. He wasn’t a priest. So to use the issue of sexual abuse to criticize the church is just idiocy. It is an atrocity no matter who does it! My personal view is, instead of putting so much focus on the priests maybe society should put all the focus on the politicans making the laws and letting all these pedophiles go after a slap on the hand just so they can hurt someone again.
You find it odd? You havent read enough responses of mine on any topic to deem whatever conclusion I come to as ODD. Ive known my share of priests, and nuns to have come to a conclusion. I find it odd that anyone would align themselves with an organization whose reputation for cover ups involving the sexual abuse of children is well documented and continues. And i do not promote any religion.
Weeder,
Not only do you judge an entire group based on a handful, now you are telling me what I’ve read or didn’t read. Your a genius; you know what everyone is thinking and doing. I can only laugh at that. Thanks for the chuckle.
So what I gather from your post above is that you find anything ODD that doesn’t agree with your viewpoint? That is what you said right? I call that viewpoint intolerance and arrogance. I view spirituality, religion, or life differently than anyone I know but that is how I feel and how I feel is suitable for me and I don’t take the position of authority and go around telling everyone that my opinion is the RIGHT one and that everyone else is a moron. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, including you, but at least have the guts to admit your no different than all of the racists in this world, judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. I don’t know for certain how many priests or nuns you have met but I do know for certain that you don’t know them all or their intentions when they entered the church.
You said it yourself - you gave up the Catholic Church 40 years ago because it was an exercise in futility and that it never would provide pats to personal spiritual growth. My question for you is, why didn’t you care about all the atrocities committed by that Catholic Church before 40 years ago when you were a follower of the church? The sexual abuse cases just cropping up over the past 10-15 years isn’t the worst the church has ever done - yet you chose to follow them at one time. Maybe you came to the conclusion that they weren’t for you but maybe others do find personal spiritual growth with Catholicism. Why are you judging them now? Would you have allowed judgement of you when you were following the church some 40 + years ago looking for spiritual growth?
If you want to talk about specific abuses in the Catholic Church thats fine, because those things have real meaning, and yes ultimately the Catholic hierarchy are complicit in covering up the indefensible and criminal actions of deviants within the priesthood, and I think that ultimately they will be held to account, as they are not above civil law in any country, including Italy. But thats the failing of the humans in the church and its arcane organization and ideas, its not the fault of the basic religious teaching of Catholicism, which as far as I can remember does not encourage or give sanction to the molestation of children by anyone. The problem is not Catholic teaching, its the inability of many people within the Catholic church to actually follow their own moral Christian code, which they claim to profess.
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post galbally!
And that last line is true about every religion in existence.
All All All will get what they deserve, God does and will repay. You can read about it in the Bible and be amazed by HIS patience and longsuffering.
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
No one here is condoning the actions of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in their handling of the pedophile priests - at least I haven't read anything of the sort yet.
Sexual abuse exists everywhere and priests DO get charged (try google again) I did, and I found quite a few priests arrested and those awaiting trial.
The point shouldn’t be why priests aren’t serving time for molestation - the point should be WHY AREN’T ALL MOLESTERS SERVING TIME? This atrocity is everywhere! I read about it daily in the freaken paper. Pedophiles get a slap on the hand. My sister was molested as a child and her abuser got 3 MONTHS. He wasn’t a priest. So to use the issue of sexual abuse to criticize the church is just idiocy. It is an atrocity no matter who does it! My personal view is, instead of putting so much focus on the priests maybe society should put all the focus on the politicans making the laws and letting all these pedophiles go after a slap on the hand just so they can hurt someone again.
You find it odd? You havent read enough responses of mine on any topic to deem whatever conclusion I come to as ODD. Ive known my share of priests, and nuns to have come to a conclusion. I find it odd that anyone would align themselves with an organization whose reputation for cover ups involving the sexual abuse of children is well documented and continues. And i do not promote any religion.
Weeder,
Not only do you judge an entire group based on a handful, now you are telling me what I’ve read or didn’t read. Your a genius; you know what everyone is thinking and doing. I can only laugh at that. Thanks for the chuckle.
So what I gather from your post above is that you find anything ODD that doesn’t agree with your viewpoint? That is what you said right? I call that viewpoint intolerance and arrogance. I view spirituality, religion, or life differently than anyone I know but that is how I feel and how I feel is suitable for me and I don’t take the position of authority and go around telling everyone that my opinion is the RIGHT one and that everyone else is a moron. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, including you, but at least have the guts to admit your no different than all of the racists in this world, judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. I don’t know for certain how many priests or nuns you have met but I do know for certain that you don’t know them all or their intentions when they entered the church.
You said it yourself - you gave up the Catholic Church 40 years ago because it was an exercise in futility and that it never would provide pats to personal spiritual growth. My question for you is, why didn’t you care about all the atrocities committed by that Catholic Church before 40 years ago when you were a follower of the church? The sexual abuse cases just cropping up over the past 10-15 years isn’t the worst the church has ever done - yet you chose to follow them at one time. Maybe you came to the conclusion that they weren’t for you but maybe others do find personal spiritual growth with Catholicism. Why are you judging them now? Would you have allowed judgement of you when you were following the church some 40 + years ago looking for spiritual growth?
If you want to talk about specific abuses in the Catholic Church thats fine, because those things have real meaning, and yes ultimately the Catholic hierarchy are complicit in covering up the indefensible and criminal actions of deviants within the priesthood, and I think that ultimately they will be held to account, as they are not above civil law in any country, including Italy. But thats the failing of the humans in the church and its arcane organization and ideas, its not the fault of the basic religious teaching of Catholicism, which as far as I can remember does not encourage or give sanction to the molestation of children by anyone. The problem is not Catholic teaching, its the inability of many people within the Catholic church to actually follow their own moral Christian code, which they claim to profess.
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post galbally!
And that last line is true about every religion in existence.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Another pea brain... Why did I not give up the church before 40 years ago??
I was 16 years old. Ill just refer to one of the quotes posted over my desk.. that I read every day.. " Beware of religious zealots.. they are generally humorless and irrational" What a waste of time.. Bye Bye
I was 16 years old. Ill just refer to one of the quotes posted over my desk.. that I read every day.. " Beware of religious zealots.. they are generally humorless and irrational" What a waste of time.. Bye Bye
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rainbowsmiles
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 pm
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Another pea brain... Why did I not give up the church before 40 years ago?? I was 16 years old. Ill just refer to one of the quotes posted over my desk.. that I read every day.. " Beware of religious zealots.. they are generally humorless and irrational" What a waste of time.. Bye Bye
You've answered my question in just a few short words, as I figured you would Thank you
BTW/I never accepted the Catholic church. I was made to attend and confirmed to humor my grandparents. I never accepted the church because I questioned everything and didn't like what I found in organized religion, nor was I happy with the history of the church. So I never had to LEAVE the catholic church - I was never IN it because I chose not to. I never looked for spirituality within it because of its history scared me off. That is my person view but I would never criticize other catholics and I always respect the path they choose to follow. Everyone has a right to find their own spiritual base, no matter where that is.
It is sad that you cannot see the impact of the words you leave nor do you realize the impression they leave of you. One can only hope that you take your words and remember that people join religions for different reasons and not everyone will see the world as you do. There are nuns who entered the church as teenagers and made their living serving people and know nothing different. Mother Theresa was a wonderful person - and I'm sure she was very aware of the things that went on within the church, things she had no control of, yet she was following the theology of her church.
It seems you have read that quote above your desk so much it has clouded your judgement of people.
You've answered my question in just a few short words, as I figured you would Thank you
BTW/I never accepted the Catholic church. I was made to attend and confirmed to humor my grandparents. I never accepted the church because I questioned everything and didn't like what I found in organized religion, nor was I happy with the history of the church. So I never had to LEAVE the catholic church - I was never IN it because I chose not to. I never looked for spirituality within it because of its history scared me off. That is my person view but I would never criticize other catholics and I always respect the path they choose to follow. Everyone has a right to find their own spiritual base, no matter where that is.
It is sad that you cannot see the impact of the words you leave nor do you realize the impression they leave of you. One can only hope that you take your words and remember that people join religions for different reasons and not everyone will see the world as you do. There are nuns who entered the church as teenagers and made their living serving people and know nothing different. Mother Theresa was a wonderful person - and I'm sure she was very aware of the things that went on within the church, things she had no control of, yet she was following the theology of her church.
It seems you have read that quote above your desk so much it has clouded your judgement of people.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
rainbowsmiles wrote: Atsila -
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
.
Perhaps you can point me to a verse or two in scripture that says judging is a good thing? Or not. Then we'll see about moronic and maybe even figure out what is meant by your allusion.
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
.
Perhaps you can point me to a verse or two in scripture that says judging is a good thing? Or not. Then we'll see about moronic and maybe even figure out what is meant by your allusion.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
On this one I am with weber.
That list of lthings from the Roman Catholic Church's past should be looked at again. Check the dates.
The statements in that list are patently false. It is a load of garbage.
Perhaps Bronwen will come in and answer the questions in a straight forward way.
I think one should look to the plank in one's own eye before looking at the sliver in someone elses.
Now to the question of church authority. The church has three sources of authority: one is the Bible, another is church tradition which began with the apostles and the third is common sense which today in many places is decidedly lacking.
The Bible is not the inerrant and literal word of God. The phrase "Word of God" belongs to One only the "word made flesh" and not to a book which is simply man's record of his experiences of the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
That list of lthings from the Roman Catholic Church's past should be looked at again. Check the dates.
The statements in that list are patently false. It is a load of garbage.
Perhaps Bronwen will come in and answer the questions in a straight forward way.
I think one should look to the plank in one's own eye before looking at the sliver in someone elses.
Now to the question of church authority. The church has three sources of authority: one is the Bible, another is church tradition which began with the apostles and the third is common sense which today in many places is decidedly lacking.
The Bible is not the inerrant and literal word of God. The phrase "Word of God" belongs to One only the "word made flesh" and not to a book which is simply man's record of his experiences of the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Welcome back Ted - how did the operation go?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Bryn Mawr:-6
Due to some unforseen other medical problems they postponed the surgery for a few weeks. I will find out Tues. when that is to be. So I can still type with both hands. One handed typing will be a pain, I am sure. LOL
Thanks for asking.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Due to some unforseen other medical problems they postponed the surgery for a few weeks. I will find out Tues. when that is to be. So I can still type with both hands. One handed typing will be a pain, I am sure. LOL
Thanks for asking.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Ted wrote: Bryn Mawr:-6
Due to some unforseen other medical problems they postponed the surgery for a few weeks. I will find out Tues. when that is to be. So I can still type with both hands. One handed typing will be a pain, I am sure. LOL
Thanks for asking.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think I'd find the uncertanty worse than the operation.
Due to some unforseen other medical problems they postponed the surgery for a few weeks. I will find out Tues. when that is to be. So I can still type with both hands. One handed typing will be a pain, I am sure. LOL
Thanks for asking.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think I'd find the uncertanty worse than the operation.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Bryn Mawr:-6
I can agree with that but that is how things went. I go in tomorrow for another test and will then be told when the surgery will take place.
I can tell you it is no picnic when they are probing the base of your neck with an electronic probe designed to stimulate the nerves to find the right one. This is especially true when they poke 8 to 10 holes in your neck and then probe around in each one. Your back jumps, your shoulder jumps etc. In spite of local freezing that did hurt.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can agree with that but that is how things went. I go in tomorrow for another test and will then be told when the surgery will take place.
I can tell you it is no picnic when they are probing the base of your neck with an electronic probe designed to stimulate the nerves to find the right one. This is especially true when they poke 8 to 10 holes in your neck and then probe around in each one. Your back jumps, your shoulder jumps etc. In spite of local freezing that did hurt.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Ted wrote: Bryn Mawr:-6
I can agree with that but that is how things went. I go in tomorrow for another test and will then be told when the surgery will take place.
I can tell you it is no picnic when they are probing the base of your neck with an electronic probe designed to stimulate the nerves to find the right one. This is especially true when they poke 8 to 10 holes in your neck and then probe around in each one. Your back jumps, your shoulder jumps etc. In spite of local freezing that did hurt.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Owwww - I don't envy you in the slightest
I can agree with that but that is how things went. I go in tomorrow for another test and will then be told when the surgery will take place.
I can tell you it is no picnic when they are probing the base of your neck with an electronic probe designed to stimulate the nerves to find the right one. This is especially true when they poke 8 to 10 holes in your neck and then probe around in each one. Your back jumps, your shoulder jumps etc. In spite of local freezing that did hurt.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Owwww - I don't envy you in the slightest
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Bryn Mawr:-6
Just another speed bump on the road of life. Some though, are bigger than others. Its taken me untill now from Friday AM to get over that at least a little bit.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Just another speed bump on the road of life. Some though, are bigger than others. Its taken me untill now from Friday AM to get over that at least a little bit.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Come to think of it I know of some dirty little secrets from some of the other churches as well including those of the fundamentalist/literalist position. I guess if a few bad apples in the RC church negate what the church is and stands for it should do the same for the others. Or I suppose one could argue my God's bettern your God.
No churches are without their problems. All churches are composed of mere human beings and they all seem to be imperfect at times, myself included.
Shalom
Ted:-6
No churches are without their problems. All churches are composed of mere human beings and they all seem to be imperfect at times, myself included.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
+++++++++Cardinal Roger Mahoney of Los Angeles (who spent millions building a cathedral known locally as the "Taj Mahoney") is in trouble again. This time, he's accused of covering up the sex scandal associated with a Mexican priest.
MEXICO CITY -- When the scandal over pedophile priests rocked the Roman Catholic Church in the United States in 2002, the shock waves barely registered in Mexico.
Now, just four years later, the Catholic Church in Mexico is facing unprecedented scrutiny. Its most prominent official has been accused of protecting a convicted sex offender, and a raft of criminal suits against alleged pedophile priests is making its way through the courts.
"This is a very key moment," said Elio Masferrer, an anthropologist who has written extensively on Mexico's church. "The victims are starting to become aware of their rights and to demand justice."
Sexual abuse cases against priests were once virtually unknown in Mexico, which is home to the world's second-largest Catholic population after Brazil.
But over the past few years, experts say, at least a dozen alleged victims have pressed charges. In the latest case, police in Puebla state on Monday arrested a priest accused of raping a 9-year-old boy. And judges are increasingly convicting the offenders, including one priest who was sentenced Sept. 22 to 6 years in jail.
A civil suit filed Sept. 19 in Los Angeles against Cardinal Norberto Rivera could embolden even more victims to come forward, activists say.
The lawsuit accuses Rivera, the powerful head of Mexico City's archdiocese, and Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles with conspiring to protect a Mexican priest accused of molesting boys in both countries.
The cardinals deny the allegations, which they say are motivated by greed. Lawyers are seeking an unspecified amount in damages.
The case was filed on behalf of Joaquin Aguilar, 25, a Mexican who says he was raped by priest Nicolas Aguilar in 1994. He says he later reported the incident to police and wrote a letter to Rivera but got no response. The priest and the alleged victim are not related.
"We hope this will inspire more Mexicans to overcome their fear and denounce their persecutors," said Eric Barragan, a spokesman for the Chicago-based Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, which is sponsoring the lawsuit. The group, which announced the opening of a Mexico chapter in December, has since received more than 100 calls from alleged victims, he said. But most people are too frightened to press charges.
Joaquin Aguilar said he received death threats after going public with his allegations last November. "I'm afraid for myself and for my family," he said during a Sept. 20 news conference to announce the case. "The church in Mexico is very powerful."
Church officials deny it. But the case is a watershed in Mexico, where the church hierarchy has long been seen as untouchable, experts say.
Rivera, who had been named as possible successor to Pope John Paul II, is the highest-ranking Mexican church official to be accused in connection with a sexual abuse case.
Aguilar, 65, is believed to be hiding out in his native Puebla state, where witnesses say he surfaces occasionally to hold mass and sell religious music outside churches.
In 1997 he was charged with sexually abusing four boys in the state, according to Mexican news reports. He was convicted on one count in 2004, but the judge waived the sentence, citing the statute of limitations.
California authorities have charged the priest with 19 felony counts of committing lewd acts on a child while he was in Los Angeles for nine months in 1987 and 1988. Those cases are pending, Los Angeles police detective Federico Sicard said, and there is a warrant out for Aguilar's arrest.
The civil lawsuit charges that Rivera conspired with Mahony to move Aguilar to Los Angeles to save him from facing trial in Mexico. It also alleges that Mahony's assistant told the priest that Los Angeles police were on his trail. Days later, he fled to Mexico, where he continued to work as a priest.
++++++++++ "The church hierarchy has been seen as untouchable." In my lifetime, the RCC and the Pope have been revered as infallible. Let's see what happens now.
MEXICO CITY -- When the scandal over pedophile priests rocked the Roman Catholic Church in the United States in 2002, the shock waves barely registered in Mexico.
Now, just four years later, the Catholic Church in Mexico is facing unprecedented scrutiny. Its most prominent official has been accused of protecting a convicted sex offender, and a raft of criminal suits against alleged pedophile priests is making its way through the courts.
"This is a very key moment," said Elio Masferrer, an anthropologist who has written extensively on Mexico's church. "The victims are starting to become aware of their rights and to demand justice."
Sexual abuse cases against priests were once virtually unknown in Mexico, which is home to the world's second-largest Catholic population after Brazil.
But over the past few years, experts say, at least a dozen alleged victims have pressed charges. In the latest case, police in Puebla state on Monday arrested a priest accused of raping a 9-year-old boy. And judges are increasingly convicting the offenders, including one priest who was sentenced Sept. 22 to 6 years in jail.
A civil suit filed Sept. 19 in Los Angeles against Cardinal Norberto Rivera could embolden even more victims to come forward, activists say.
The lawsuit accuses Rivera, the powerful head of Mexico City's archdiocese, and Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles with conspiring to protect a Mexican priest accused of molesting boys in both countries.
The cardinals deny the allegations, which they say are motivated by greed. Lawyers are seeking an unspecified amount in damages.
The case was filed on behalf of Joaquin Aguilar, 25, a Mexican who says he was raped by priest Nicolas Aguilar in 1994. He says he later reported the incident to police and wrote a letter to Rivera but got no response. The priest and the alleged victim are not related.
"We hope this will inspire more Mexicans to overcome their fear and denounce their persecutors," said Eric Barragan, a spokesman for the Chicago-based Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, which is sponsoring the lawsuit. The group, which announced the opening of a Mexico chapter in December, has since received more than 100 calls from alleged victims, he said. But most people are too frightened to press charges.
Joaquin Aguilar said he received death threats after going public with his allegations last November. "I'm afraid for myself and for my family," he said during a Sept. 20 news conference to announce the case. "The church in Mexico is very powerful."
Church officials deny it. But the case is a watershed in Mexico, where the church hierarchy has long been seen as untouchable, experts say.
Rivera, who had been named as possible successor to Pope John Paul II, is the highest-ranking Mexican church official to be accused in connection with a sexual abuse case.
Aguilar, 65, is believed to be hiding out in his native Puebla state, where witnesses say he surfaces occasionally to hold mass and sell religious music outside churches.
In 1997 he was charged with sexually abusing four boys in the state, according to Mexican news reports. He was convicted on one count in 2004, but the judge waived the sentence, citing the statute of limitations.
California authorities have charged the priest with 19 felony counts of committing lewd acts on a child while he was in Los Angeles for nine months in 1987 and 1988. Those cases are pending, Los Angeles police detective Federico Sicard said, and there is a warrant out for Aguilar's arrest.
The civil lawsuit charges that Rivera conspired with Mahony to move Aguilar to Los Angeles to save him from facing trial in Mexico. It also alleges that Mahony's assistant told the priest that Los Angeles police were on his trail. Days later, he fled to Mexico, where he continued to work as a priest.
++++++++++ "The church hierarchy has been seen as untouchable." In my lifetime, the RCC and the Pope have been revered as infallible. Let's see what happens now.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
I am not saying that any oth this did not happen. Those who are found guilty are being punished. Those accused are innocent until proven guilty. If so proven they will also be punished.
Just how many of the hierarchy are involved has never been shown. It could be a few or it could be many. The truth will eventually come out.
Other churches are in the same situation as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Just how many of the hierarchy are involved has never been shown. It could be a few or it could be many. The truth will eventually come out.
Other churches are in the same situation as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Can you cite some examples of highly-placed coverups of massive child sexual abuse by church officials outside the RCC?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weeder wrote: Another pea brain... Why did I not give up the church before 40 years ago??
I was 16 years old. Ill just refer to one of the quotes posted over my desk.. that I read every day.. " Beware of religious zealots.. they are generally humorless and irrational" What a waste of time.. Bye Bye
Now you are just embarressing yourself, you claim to be disdainful of pious and dogmatic relgious types, while proving that those of a non-religous persuasion (of which I am one I assure you) can be just as dismissive and intolerant of reasonable argument. If you are 56 then my advice is to grow up, get the monkey off your back, and try to be a little bit more tolerant of those you don't agree with you would be doing yourself and the rest of us a service.
I was 16 years old. Ill just refer to one of the quotes posted over my desk.. that I read every day.. " Beware of religious zealots.. they are generally humorless and irrational" What a waste of time.. Bye Bye
Now you are just embarressing yourself, you claim to be disdainful of pious and dogmatic relgious types, while proving that those of a non-religous persuasion (of which I am one I assure you) can be just as dismissive and intolerant of reasonable argument. If you are 56 then my advice is to grow up, get the monkey off your back, and try to be a little bit more tolerant of those you don't agree with you would be doing yourself and the rest of us a service.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Lulu2 wrote: Can you cite some examples of highly-placed coverups of massive child sexual abuse by church officials outside the RCC?
I am not going to go about forever finding this stuff. The words child abuse and Catholic Church come up no matter almost how you put it. I wish I knew the words. It's stupid. There is child abuse in all churches. I found it child abuse and the Jewish Religion and here is another one. In my very, very small town of less than 5,000, there were 2 cases found, that is found, there would be others. I do not defend the Catholic Church but I do think it is horrid to beat it to death and the good people and priests have to listen all the time.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html
I am not going to go about forever finding this stuff. The words child abuse and Catholic Church come up no matter almost how you put it. I wish I knew the words. It's stupid. There is child abuse in all churches. I found it child abuse and the Jewish Religion and here is another one. In my very, very small town of less than 5,000, there were 2 cases found, that is found, there would be others. I do not defend the Catholic Church but I do think it is horrid to beat it to death and the good people and priests have to listen all the time.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Lulu2 wrote: Can you cite some examples of highly-placed coverups of massive child sexual abuse by church officials outside the RCC?
Actually I remember a recent case in the U.K. where British police broke a very large paedopile ring, run via the Internet, that involved hundreds of deviant men from all walks of life including comics, actors, intellectuals, soliders, barristers, bank managers, chefs, teachers, etc etc. I'm sure that there where many people around these individuals who didn't perhaps intervene when they should have, and I'm not sure if they were all in league with the Vatican, but then maybe I am being a bit naieve.
Again, this is not making apology's for the sickening hypocrisy of the Catholic heirarachy on this matter, they stink and they have no excuses, and it makes me glad that I am not a devout Catholic, but I am quite certain that the Vatican is not the only only organization religious or otherwise that is up to its neck in this sort of stuff.
Actually I remember a recent case in the U.K. where British police broke a very large paedopile ring, run via the Internet, that involved hundreds of deviant men from all walks of life including comics, actors, intellectuals, soliders, barristers, bank managers, chefs, teachers, etc etc. I'm sure that there where many people around these individuals who didn't perhaps intervene when they should have, and I'm not sure if they were all in league with the Vatican, but then maybe I am being a bit naieve.
Again, this is not making apology's for the sickening hypocrisy of the Catholic heirarachy on this matter, they stink and they have no excuses, and it makes me glad that I am not a devout Catholic, but I am quite certain that the Vatican is not the only only organization religious or otherwise that is up to its neck in this sort of stuff.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Lulu:-6
Yep. The Anglican and United Churches have had problems with those running residential schools in the past. However, these churches have admitted the situation and have taken steps to make both monetary and personal reparations for the behaviour of a few.
Clergy in other churches as well have been committing the same kinds of molestation. I know of one fundy clergy who was doing some very heavy counselling in his study at the church, on a regular basis. This was appropriately dealt with at the request of the church.
I know of an Anglican church organist who was playing with some of the children of the youth choir. This was appropriately dealt with at the request of the church.
I am quite certain that you would find thus in most other countries. However, one should bear in mind that the church does not hold a monopoly on child molestation or inappropriate behavious; nurses, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yep. The Anglican and United Churches have had problems with those running residential schools in the past. However, these churches have admitted the situation and have taken steps to make both monetary and personal reparations for the behaviour of a few.
Clergy in other churches as well have been committing the same kinds of molestation. I know of one fundy clergy who was doing some very heavy counselling in his study at the church, on a regular basis. This was appropriately dealt with at the request of the church.
I know of an Anglican church organist who was playing with some of the children of the youth choir. This was appropriately dealt with at the request of the church.
I am quite certain that you would find thus in most other countries. However, one should bear in mind that the church does not hold a monopoly on child molestation or inappropriate behavious; nurses, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
I was just thinking how easy it is for us outside the RCC to criticize but it would be much more authentic, appropriate and valuable for members of the church to do so. They are the ones who can vote with their feet or their wallets or both as the case may be.
I do know of some personally who have voted in the latter way. They left with their money.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I do know of some personally who have voted in the latter way. They left with their money.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Isolated incidents of pedophilia certainly exist everywhere, in schools, churches and anyplace predators can find victims. The RCC scandal has been a widespread, elaborate conspiracy of cover-ups, deception and denial. It is huge and unlike anything I've ever encountered.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Lulu2 wrote: Isolated incidents of pedophilia certainly exist everywhere, in schools, churches and anyplace predators can find victims. The RCC scandal has been a widespread, elaborate conspiracy of cover-ups, deception and denial. It is huge and unlike anything I've ever encountered.
I think it is huge and very bad but it is being dealt with. Yes there was a cover up but it has been exposed and it is being taken care of. And there has been massive investigation by the Catholic Church and there were found a number of people with false claims....people looking for an easy buck. The Catholic Church needs to be ashamed of itself but I don't think it is as big as you make it Lulu.
There is so much child abuse in this world that I cannot understand people spending all of their time spewing about the Catholic Church in stead of working at cleaning up the rest of the world's child abuse.
As long as everybody has the Catholic Church to crap about, they are forgetting the rest of it. As disgusting as the Catholic Church coverup is, it doesn't make the rest of the world clean. Not by any means.
I think it is huge and very bad but it is being dealt with. Yes there was a cover up but it has been exposed and it is being taken care of. And there has been massive investigation by the Catholic Church and there were found a number of people with false claims....people looking for an easy buck. The Catholic Church needs to be ashamed of itself but I don't think it is as big as you make it Lulu.
There is so much child abuse in this world that I cannot understand people spending all of their time spewing about the Catholic Church in stead of working at cleaning up the rest of the world's child abuse.
As long as everybody has the Catholic Church to crap about, they are forgetting the rest of it. As disgusting as the Catholic Church coverup is, it doesn't make the rest of the world clean. Not by any means.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weber:-6
Right on.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Right on.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
There are those who like to pick on the church because of its basic tenets which in many ways are very difficult to follow if understood in the fundamentalist/literalist way. This leaves them wide open for all kinds of accusations and abuse itself. We all ought to be more interested in the truth and the welfare of all people. It is so easy to be an "arm chair" critic.
We should put our money and our talents where our mouths are.
Shalom
Ted:-6
We should put our money and our talents where our mouths are.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
"As long as everybody has the Catholic Church to crap about, they are forgetting the rest of it. As disgusting as the Catholic Church coverup is, it doesn't make the rest of the world clean. Not by any means."
+++++++++ I don't think anyone has said anything to excuse pedophiles. And you're right...the RCC coverup is disgusting and huge and FAR from over. It's really only beginning.
+++++++++ I don't think anyone has said anything to excuse pedophiles. And you're right...the RCC coverup is disgusting and huge and FAR from over. It's really only beginning.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
uhuh mmmm "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Ok, to deal with the Catholic Church specifically. My opinion on the wholesale abuses and cover ups are basically involving 2 issues. The first is the seeming inability of the Catholic hieararchy to understand that the Church is first an foremost a religion, and trying to use legal or ethical means to evade its basic moral responsibility is not acceptable and goes against everything that Christianity is supposed to be about, and my view is that the Church if it continues in this way will destroy is moral credibility with ordinary Catholics and we might well be looking at a second reformation, which in itself may not be a bad thing.
It already has done enourmous damage both to the victims of abuse, to the faith of ordinary Catholics, and itself as an institution. It needs to face up to its moral responsibilities without any equivocation.
Second, the upper hierarchy need to get over the delusion that Canon law has any meaning outside the seminary and national governments in Catholic countries need to basically stop being afraid to take the Church on in relation to criminal matters, and make sure that the Catholic hierarcy are under no illusion about their responsibility. If that means bringing the Church to account legally all the way up to the Vatican, then so be it, its obvious that the Church has been unwilling or unable to really deal with this, and in any case it had no right to think that it should.
Finally Catholicism is a religion, not a political organization, and any religion in which the supposed leaders of that religion do not follow the tenets of their own faith will not survive in the long term, there is a lot that is good about Catholicism or else it wouldn't have survived to the present day. Its time for its leaders, rank and file clergy, and ordinary catholics to examine their conciouesnses and deal openly with the abuses within the church in a way that reflects the central teachings of Christ.
Thats my view as a Catholic.
It already has done enourmous damage both to the victims of abuse, to the faith of ordinary Catholics, and itself as an institution. It needs to face up to its moral responsibilities without any equivocation.
Second, the upper hierarchy need to get over the delusion that Canon law has any meaning outside the seminary and national governments in Catholic countries need to basically stop being afraid to take the Church on in relation to criminal matters, and make sure that the Catholic hierarcy are under no illusion about their responsibility. If that means bringing the Church to account legally all the way up to the Vatican, then so be it, its obvious that the Church has been unwilling or unable to really deal with this, and in any case it had no right to think that it should.
Finally Catholicism is a religion, not a political organization, and any religion in which the supposed leaders of that religion do not follow the tenets of their own faith will not survive in the long term, there is a lot that is good about Catholicism or else it wouldn't have survived to the present day. Its time for its leaders, rank and file clergy, and ordinary catholics to examine their conciouesnses and deal openly with the abuses within the church in a way that reflects the central teachings of Christ.
Thats my view as a Catholic.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
That's pretty good Galbally.
But I thought, remember reading, that the Catholic Church was dealing with the abuse issue and had paid some millions of dollars to victims and because some claims seemed unwarranted, they did large searches and found some claims to be false. Priests who confessed to abuse were named and dismissed and held responsible, etc. etc. I can't remember the whold thing but I remember that.
The coverup has been exposed and is being dealt with. I have been told, but have not read, that priests were just moved to another place. I know that the things I read were from a reliable source. So before this goes any further, I would like to see some proof that nothing is being done and that the coverup is still a coverup, a reliable source from the present time.
But I thought, remember reading, that the Catholic Church was dealing with the abuse issue and had paid some millions of dollars to victims and because some claims seemed unwarranted, they did large searches and found some claims to be false. Priests who confessed to abuse were named and dismissed and held responsible, etc. etc. I can't remember the whold thing but I remember that.
The coverup has been exposed and is being dealt with. I have been told, but have not read, that priests were just moved to another place. I know that the things I read were from a reliable source. So before this goes any further, I would like to see some proof that nothing is being done and that the coverup is still a coverup, a reliable source from the present time.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Galbally:-6
You have made some excellent points. It is more important because you are a Roman Catholic.
I guess, and it is a guess, that it is hard for the vastness of the Roman Catholic Church to get past that era when it thought that its members should be subject to the rule of the church even above the law. I'm thinking back to the middle ages when its desire was to control the monarchs of nations and thus the nations.
I think your call for a "New Reformation" is probably right on. I personally know that Theologian and Mystic Matthew Fox is in fact calling for such a reformation in all of Christendom. He is calling for a return to the sprituality that was the foundation of all the great faiths of the world.
I do think he is on the right track and how it would move ahead is certainly open to much discussion.
An Anglican Christian pluralist
Shalom
Ted:-6
You have made some excellent points. It is more important because you are a Roman Catholic.
I guess, and it is a guess, that it is hard for the vastness of the Roman Catholic Church to get past that era when it thought that its members should be subject to the rule of the church even above the law. I'm thinking back to the middle ages when its desire was to control the monarchs of nations and thus the nations.
I think your call for a "New Reformation" is probably right on. I personally know that Theologian and Mystic Matthew Fox is in fact calling for such a reformation in all of Christendom. He is calling for a return to the sprituality that was the foundation of all the great faiths of the world.
I do think he is on the right track and how it would move ahead is certainly open to much discussion.
An Anglican Christian pluralist
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
weber wrote: That's pretty good Galbally.
But I thought, remember reading, that the Catholic Church was dealing with the abuse issue and had paid some millions of dollars to victims and because some claims seemed unwarranted, they did large searches and found some claims to be false. Priests who confessed to abuse were named and dismissed and held responsible, etc. etc. I can't remember the whold thing but I remember that.
The coverup has been exposed and is being dealt with. I have been told, but have not read, that priests were just moved to another place. I know that the things I read were from a reliable source. So before this goes any further, I would like to see some proof that nothing is being done and that the coverup is still a coverup, a reliable source from the present time.
Yes, I know what you are saying. But as someone who has been brought up as a catholic, I don't think the response from the top of the chursh has been good enough, there is too much talk about legal accountability, jursdictional issues, doctrinal debate, and not enough from the Vatican that as the centre of Catholicism it is responsible for both teaching and living in compliance with the teachings of Jesus. Its has done terrible wrong in not fully taking on child ause issues years ago and I think there has to be an open and honest debate within the church about how such things have been allowed to happen, it won't be nice, but thats not the issue. The issue is that as Catholics we were taught to, above all, love god and our neighbours as ourselves. What has happened in these recent cases the church has not done this at all, when faced with a damaging crisis, it above all tried to protect itself and its clergy from the damage that this was going to cause. For any other organizatuion, this would not be good enough, from the Catholic Church, the institution of one of the world's great religions and supposedly a protector of christs message, it is utterly wrong. For the RCC, it must reassert its moral and spirituality credibility amoung catholics and that can only come from honesty, acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and atonement for those wrongs.
Thats my own opinion, but of course its only one opinion, and other Catholic's should formulate their own views.
But I thought, remember reading, that the Catholic Church was dealing with the abuse issue and had paid some millions of dollars to victims and because some claims seemed unwarranted, they did large searches and found some claims to be false. Priests who confessed to abuse were named and dismissed and held responsible, etc. etc. I can't remember the whold thing but I remember that.
The coverup has been exposed and is being dealt with. I have been told, but have not read, that priests were just moved to another place. I know that the things I read were from a reliable source. So before this goes any further, I would like to see some proof that nothing is being done and that the coverup is still a coverup, a reliable source from the present time.
Yes, I know what you are saying. But as someone who has been brought up as a catholic, I don't think the response from the top of the chursh has been good enough, there is too much talk about legal accountability, jursdictional issues, doctrinal debate, and not enough from the Vatican that as the centre of Catholicism it is responsible for both teaching and living in compliance with the teachings of Jesus. Its has done terrible wrong in not fully taking on child ause issues years ago and I think there has to be an open and honest debate within the church about how such things have been allowed to happen, it won't be nice, but thats not the issue. The issue is that as Catholics we were taught to, above all, love god and our neighbours as ourselves. What has happened in these recent cases the church has not done this at all, when faced with a damaging crisis, it above all tried to protect itself and its clergy from the damage that this was going to cause. For any other organizatuion, this would not be good enough, from the Catholic Church, the institution of one of the world's great religions and supposedly a protector of christs message, it is utterly wrong. For the RCC, it must reassert its moral and spirituality credibility amoung catholics and that can only come from honesty, acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and atonement for those wrongs.
Thats my own opinion, but of course its only one opinion, and other Catholic's should formulate their own views.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Galbally
I only asked because I am not totally sure.....oh well, I guess I just don't know as I haven't read about what is or isn't being done and am not totally sure as to the whole cover up thing. I don't think that the Pope would sanction a cover up. I figure it would be kept from him but maybe not. But I do know for sure that there is a lot a hate in this world, a hate so intense that it will eventually rear it's ugly face and back fire.
And you are right that there should be accountability from the RCC.
I only asked because I am not totally sure.....oh well, I guess I just don't know as I haven't read about what is or isn't being done and am not totally sure as to the whole cover up thing. I don't think that the Pope would sanction a cover up. I figure it would be kept from him but maybe not. But I do know for sure that there is a lot a hate in this world, a hate so intense that it will eventually rear it's ugly face and back fire.
And you are right that there should be accountability from the RCC.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Galbally, I was raised Catholic, too...and am horrified about the conspiracy to cover the damage. It's all about covering up the damage and hiding the damage done by the church and the horrific STUFF done by the priests and the people involved in the church at that time!.
Everyone wants to hide the damage and the guilt!
Everyone wants to hide the damage and the guilt!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
rainbowsmiles wrote: Atsila -
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
No one here is condoning the actions of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in their handling of the pedophile priests - at least I haven't read anything of the sort yet.
Sexual abuse exists everywhere and priests DO get charged (try google again) I did, and I found quite a few priests arrested and those awaiting trial.
The point shouldn’t be why priests aren’t serving time for molestation - the point should be WHY AREN’T ALL MOLESTERS SERVING TIME? This atrocity is everywhere! I read about it daily in the freaken paper. Pedophiles get a slap on the hand. My sister was molested as a child and her abuser got 3 MONTHS. He wasn’t a priest. So to use the issue of sexual abuse to criticize the church is just idiocy. It is an atrocity no matter who does it! My personal view is, instead of putting so much focus on the priests maybe society should put all the focus on the politicans making the laws and letting all these pedophiles go after a slap on the hand just so they can hurt someone again.
Weeder,
Not only do you judge an entire group based on a handful, now you are telling me what I’ve read or didn’t read. Your a genius; you know what everyone is thinking and doing. I can only laugh at that. Thanks for the chuckle.
So what I gather from your post above is that you find anything ODD that doesn’t agree with your viewpoint? That is what you said right? I call that viewpoint intolerance and arrogance. I view spirituality, religion, or life differently than anyone I know but that is how I feel and how I feel is suitable for me and I don’t take the position of authority and go around telling everyone that my opinion is the RIGHT one and that everyone else is a moron. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, including you, but at least have the guts to admit your no different than all of the racists in this world, judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. I don’t know for certain how many priests or nuns you have met but I do know for certain that you don’t know them all or their intentions when they entered the church.
You said it yourself - you gave up the Catholic Church 40 years ago because it was an exercise in futility and that it never would provide pats to personal spiritual growth. My question for you is, why didn’t you care about all the atrocities committed by that Catholic Church before 40 years ago when you were a follower of the church? The sexual abuse cases just cropping up over the past 10-15 years isn’t the worst the church has ever done - yet you chose to follow them at one time. Maybe you came to the conclusion that they weren’t for you but maybe others do find personal spiritual growth with Catholicism. Why are you judging them now? Would you have allowed judgement of you when you were following the church some 40 + years ago looking for spiritual growth?
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post galbally!
And that last line is true about every religion in existence.
What a lovely reminder. Do not judge! Do you judge anything, anybody? When you see something loathesome, do you close your eyes? Do you call it bad? When you see something wonderful, do you close your eyes? Do you call it good?
I know you do both. Your loooooooooooooooooong post suggests you know something about judgment. You are using it to judge me, eh?
Now, all you have to do is reconcile the meaning of judgment, unless you enjoy being a hypocrite? Now, doesn't that make the word moronic come home to you?
I always find it amazing when people refer to God or the bible as if it is gospel and yet they don’t follow its law. Wasn’t “DO NOT JUDGE in there somewhere. If you’re a non-believer Atsila then it seems a bit moronic for you to refer to the bible when your trying to make a statement.
No one here is condoning the actions of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in their handling of the pedophile priests - at least I haven't read anything of the sort yet.
Sexual abuse exists everywhere and priests DO get charged (try google again) I did, and I found quite a few priests arrested and those awaiting trial.
The point shouldn’t be why priests aren’t serving time for molestation - the point should be WHY AREN’T ALL MOLESTERS SERVING TIME? This atrocity is everywhere! I read about it daily in the freaken paper. Pedophiles get a slap on the hand. My sister was molested as a child and her abuser got 3 MONTHS. He wasn’t a priest. So to use the issue of sexual abuse to criticize the church is just idiocy. It is an atrocity no matter who does it! My personal view is, instead of putting so much focus on the priests maybe society should put all the focus on the politicans making the laws and letting all these pedophiles go after a slap on the hand just so they can hurt someone again.
Weeder,
Not only do you judge an entire group based on a handful, now you are telling me what I’ve read or didn’t read. Your a genius; you know what everyone is thinking and doing. I can only laugh at that. Thanks for the chuckle.
So what I gather from your post above is that you find anything ODD that doesn’t agree with your viewpoint? That is what you said right? I call that viewpoint intolerance and arrogance. I view spirituality, religion, or life differently than anyone I know but that is how I feel and how I feel is suitable for me and I don’t take the position of authority and go around telling everyone that my opinion is the RIGHT one and that everyone else is a moron. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, including you, but at least have the guts to admit your no different than all of the racists in this world, judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. I don’t know for certain how many priests or nuns you have met but I do know for certain that you don’t know them all or their intentions when they entered the church.
You said it yourself - you gave up the Catholic Church 40 years ago because it was an exercise in futility and that it never would provide pats to personal spiritual growth. My question for you is, why didn’t you care about all the atrocities committed by that Catholic Church before 40 years ago when you were a follower of the church? The sexual abuse cases just cropping up over the past 10-15 years isn’t the worst the church has ever done - yet you chose to follow them at one time. Maybe you came to the conclusion that they weren’t for you but maybe others do find personal spiritual growth with Catholicism. Why are you judging them now? Would you have allowed judgement of you when you were following the church some 40 + years ago looking for spiritual growth?
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post galbally!
And that last line is true about every religion in existence.
What a lovely reminder. Do not judge! Do you judge anything, anybody? When you see something loathesome, do you close your eyes? Do you call it bad? When you see something wonderful, do you close your eyes? Do you call it good?
I know you do both. Your loooooooooooooooooong post suggests you know something about judgment. You are using it to judge me, eh?
Now, all you have to do is reconcile the meaning of judgment, unless you enjoy being a hypocrite? Now, doesn't that make the word moronic come home to you?
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Ted wrote: There are those who like to pick on the church because of its basic tenets which in many ways are very difficult to follow if understood in the fundamentalist/literalist way. This leaves them wide open for all kinds of accusations and abuse itself. We all ought to be more interested in the truth and the welfare of all people. It is so easy to be an "arm chair" critic.
We should put our money and our talents where our mouths are.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Truth according to you? What's a fundamentalist? No, I don't mean the connotations ascribed by the media to gain advantage and to disparage. I mean the REAL meaning. And your boogaboo about literalism, when you should know that some things in scripture are to be taken that way, whilst others are not.
God says HE is not mocked and I want to stress to you that this is to be taken literally.
You can spout your nonsense here to people who are not articulate in scripture, but to those who are, you are a charlatan. A deceiver who preaches his own gospel with just enough salt to make it palatable to the deceivable. A pied piper with lemmings. May God have mercy on you. :-6
We should put our money and our talents where our mouths are.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Truth according to you? What's a fundamentalist? No, I don't mean the connotations ascribed by the media to gain advantage and to disparage. I mean the REAL meaning. And your boogaboo about literalism, when you should know that some things in scripture are to be taken that way, whilst others are not.
God says HE is not mocked and I want to stress to you that this is to be taken literally.
You can spout your nonsense here to people who are not articulate in scripture, but to those who are, you are a charlatan. A deceiver who preaches his own gospel with just enough salt to make it palatable to the deceivable. A pied piper with lemmings. May God have mercy on you. :-6
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Atsila wrote: Truth according to you? What's a fundamentalist? No, I don't mean the connotations ascribed by the media to gain advantage and to disparage. I mean the REAL meaning. And your boogaboo about literalism, when you should know that some things in scripture are to be taken that way, whilst others are not.
God says HE is not mocked and I want to stress to you that this is to be taken literally.
You can spout your nonsense here to people who are not articulate in scripture, but to those who are, you are a charlatan. A deceiver who preaches his own gospel with just enough salt to make it palatable to the deceivable. A pied piper with lemmings. May God have mercy on you. :-6
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:yh_sleep
God says HE is not mocked and I want to stress to you that this is to be taken literally.
You can spout your nonsense here to people who are not articulate in scripture, but to those who are, you are a charlatan. A deceiver who preaches his own gospel with just enough salt to make it palatable to the deceivable. A pied piper with lemmings. May God have mercy on you. :-6
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:yh_sleep
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Atsila:-6
:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
rainbowsmiles
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 pm
The Vatican's 'dirty little secret'
Atsila,
When your posts start to make some sense I will consider replying.
Galbally,
It is so true. The church did make an exceeded effort to cover up the molestation. I often wondered what the excuses would be from the hierarchy of the church if one could ever ask them. After the Pope made his official apology, what changes were made? A few years back the church talked about internal investigations and a plan of action after the molestation issues had been brought to the surface as well as the rape of nuns and forced abortions. But it seems more has been done to protect women than children - or have I missed something.
When I first heard about this happening I mentioned it to my grandmother and her question has always been "what was the Popes involvement?" I know several catholics do not believe the Pope was aware of the circumstances or the cover-up that followed (for my family, they need everything to relate somehow to the current Pope - I know that isn't the same for all practicing Catholics though). I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any evidence that the Pope took part in any cover-up? I'm out of the loop on this - I'm not too sure what the hierarchy of the church has done recently to protect (or not to protect) children.
In general I feel that not enough is done to protect children from pedophiles. We hear about this garbage day in and day out and yet pedophiles continue to get a slap on the hand for their offenses. And yes - those pedophiles EXISTS EVERYWHERE - contrary to the picture a couple of people are trying to paint here. The Catholic church isn't the only haven for sex offenders Nor is the Catholic Church the only one doing a cover up.
AHEM - wasn't there a little something about a politician and a cover up in Washington recently. Or maybe I dreamt that. I wonder if that means we should all avoid politics and politicans altogether and just forget voting from now on. :-3
When your posts start to make some sense I will consider replying.
Galbally,
It is so true. The church did make an exceeded effort to cover up the molestation. I often wondered what the excuses would be from the hierarchy of the church if one could ever ask them. After the Pope made his official apology, what changes were made? A few years back the church talked about internal investigations and a plan of action after the molestation issues had been brought to the surface as well as the rape of nuns and forced abortions. But it seems more has been done to protect women than children - or have I missed something.
When I first heard about this happening I mentioned it to my grandmother and her question has always been "what was the Popes involvement?" I know several catholics do not believe the Pope was aware of the circumstances or the cover-up that followed (for my family, they need everything to relate somehow to the current Pope - I know that isn't the same for all practicing Catholics though). I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any evidence that the Pope took part in any cover-up? I'm out of the loop on this - I'm not too sure what the hierarchy of the church has done recently to protect (or not to protect) children.
In general I feel that not enough is done to protect children from pedophiles. We hear about this garbage day in and day out and yet pedophiles continue to get a slap on the hand for their offenses. And yes - those pedophiles EXISTS EVERYWHERE - contrary to the picture a couple of people are trying to paint here. The Catholic church isn't the only haven for sex offenders
Nor is the Catholic Church the only one doing a cover up.AHEM - wasn't there a little something about a politician and a cover up in Washington recently. Or maybe I dreamt that.
I wonder if that means we should all avoid politics and politicans altogether and just forget voting from now on. :-3