Fewer secular wars because of religion

[Suresh Gupta]

Clint wrote: I’m not saying that tolerance is a bad thing. Tolerance that grows from compassion is, I think, an unavoidable outcome. Tolerance is not something I can allow in my own life. I cannot become tolerant of my own misdeeds. I cannot expect that God is tolerant of my misdeeds and by extension the misdeeds of others. I’m not saying that we should take up arms against those who have different beliefs.

I view the present day emphasis on tolerance as unhealthy for humankind. Too much tolerance of self destructive behavior will result in self destruction. That is why I think the emphasis should be on compassion. Compassion will prevent extreme behavior stemming from healthy intolerance.


Clint dear. you have added a new thought to this issue - tolerance of misdeeds of others and tolerance of own misdeeds. I fully agree with you that one should never become tolerant of own misdeeds. But for others' misdeeds one has to take an objective view. And again you are right that too much tolerance might become destructive.

Here I would like to introduce a caution. Being intolerant to every misdeed by others or to different point of view should be given due thought before acting. One underlying principle can be compassion or not causing harm to others.

[Suresh Gupta]

Dear Clint an dear Ted,

I wish to congratulate you both for engaing in such a decent discussion on such an important issue.

I agree with Ted that tolerance of others faiths is very important and truly the will of God. One should respect the validity of all the great faiths of the world as generally all folks are seeking God. But one has to agree with Clint also for not sitting quietly while followers of a particular religion that calls others infidel and acts to destroy them. Afterall one has a right to defend oneself. Then again, I agree with Ted that it is the extremists that we must worry about not the average faithful in the other faiths.

[Clint]

Suresh Gupta

Thank you for the complement. You have had an important part in keeping the discussion going on a productive path.

If we look at the present day behavior of Christianity I think we have something to feel good about. Christians have taken an active and effective role in keeping the extremists within our faith from going over the edge. I would like to see that kind of an effort within Islam. We are beginning to see the people of some of the Muslim nations take an active role in self governing. It would be nice to see the Muslim people take the initiative to stop their extremists from fanning the flames of hate. What I’ve seen has been a few Muslims announcing that they are a peaceful religion but that’s about it. Maybe I missed something.

[David813]

Clint I don't see Christians in this country reigning in the extremists. They have taken over the Government! Probing into our personal lives re: Abortion (which IS STILL legal) deciding who may marry and who cannot, forcing creationism into our public schools, making choices that families should as in the ever ongoing Terri case. I live in a place where the Attorney General of KS has ordered medical clinics that provide abortion and sex counseling to surrender the personal records of women that used the clinics in a fishing expedition to justify his imposing his extremist Christian beliefs on everyone. He wants KS kids to be taught Sunday School in public school. He has power. He is Christian and an extremist. Imagine a member of the GodSquad is your AG. And he orders government agents to your doctor to see your records in case you broke one of his religious rules. The Party of God (as in Iran) is here. The wacko Bible beaters are in control. How on earth can you say it isn't happening??

[Suresh Gupta]

Clint wrote: ..........If we look at the present day behavior of Christianity I think we have something to feel good about. Christians have taken an active and effective role in keeping the extremists within our faith from going over the edge. I would like to see that kind of an effort within Islam. We are beginning to see the people of some of the Muslim nations take an active role in self governing. It would be nice to see the Muslim people take the initiative to stop their extremists from fanning the flames of hate. What I’ve seen has been a few Muslims announcing that they are a peaceful religion but that’s about it. Maybe I missed something.


No you did not miss anything and I hope your wish is granted. A nice place this world will become if right thinking people keep extremists in their religion in check and stop them fanning the flames of hate.

[gmc]

Posted by Clint

I’m not saying that tolerance is a bad thing. Tolerance that grows from compassion is, I think, an unavoidable outcome. Tolerance is not something I can allow in my own life. I cannot become tolerant of my own misdeeds. I cannot expect that God is tolerant of my misdeeds and by extension the misdeeds of others. I’m not saying that we should take up arms against those who have different beliefs.


I kind of agree with you, I think. It's actually quite difficult to express properly. I can understand someone being intolerant of their own failings. To me know knowing your own failings should make you more understanding of others. Also I don't think anyone should be judgemental of anothers lifestyle unless it directly harms those around them. Live let live.

I can never understand how following the teachings of christ can turn in to a word for word belief in the old testament as the unchanged word of god. The god of the old testament is an intolerant harsh being. If JC came to earth to take on our sins and give us the new testament love thy neighbour etc then surely it replaces the old. In essence his message is blindingly simple treat others as you would be treated your self. How does this become punish transgressors and force people to believe as you do selective picking bits of the bible to justify your own prejudices.

Perhaps the greatest sin of all is to convince yourself you are right and everyone must believe as you do. I am as you may have gathered not a christian, I know many I respect and also many bigots who are anything but and who will beat the crap out of you if you disagree safe in the knowledge that their god is on thgeir side.

David813

Clint I don't see Christians in this country reigning in the extremists. They have taken over the Government! Probing into our personal lives re: Abortion (which IS STILL legal) deciding who may marry and who cannot, forcing creationism into our public schools, making choices that families should as in the ever ongoing Terri case. I live in a place where the Attorney General of KS has ordered medical clinics that provide abortion and sex counseling to surrender the personal records of women that used the clinics in a fishing expedition to justify his imposing his extremist Christian beliefs on everyone. He wants KS kids to be taught Sunday School in public school. He has power. He is Christian and an extremist. Imagine a member of the GodSquad is your AG. And he orders government agents to your doctor to see your records in case you broke one of his religious rules. The Party of God (as in Iran) is here. The wacko Bible beaters are in control. How on earth can you say it isn't happening??


Fundamenatilist christians are every bit as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims, tolerance is not part of their make up.

How can he order them to hand over confidential records? It's not as though they are criminals.

re creationism, my wofe taught biology in an inner london school, she taught evolutiuon but found she had to add a caveat that this was only a theory and many believed otherwise-in creationism. Maybe the rest of us are too tolerant of religon?

[Clint]

David813 and gmc.

Do you actually believe that Christian extremests are the equivilant to Islamic extremests?

David813,

Do you consider yourself to be a tolerant person?

I'm going to be gone for a couple of days. See ya Monday. :guitarist

Shabbat Shalom

[gmc]

posted by clint

David813 and gmc.

Do you actually believe that Christian extremests are the equivilant to Islamic extremests?


Speaking for myself if you mean do i believe christian extremists are as capable of atrocity as islamic ones, yes I do.

David813,

Do you consider yourself to be a tolerant person?


Again speaking for myself

I would like to think so but only up to a point. There are obviously some things I will not tolerate paedophiles or abuse of women nor have I always been tolerant of some activitities but have come to appreciate that what goes on between consenting adults is their own affair, nNo doubt they will answer to their god in due course, and no one has the moral authority to tell them what is right or wrong or that only they understand what god means. I have little tolerance of those who think they know the word of god and only they should have a say in the matter and are prepared to shove their beliefs down everyoned throat. Incidentally I feel the same way about political extremists as well.

I am intolerant of bigots.

[Ted]

gmc :-6

I am in agreement with you on that one.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[telaquapacky]

Clint wrote: Shabbat ShalomSame to you

Speaking of which- have you ever had problems because of your Sabbath-keeping?

I lost my last job because I had to leave early on Friday during the winter, when sundown would fall around 4:00. My employer "tolerated" this until he could find a replacement who had no such unique needs. I finally decided a Sabbath-keeper in a Sunday-keeping world needs to own his own business.

I feel sorry for those who don't have the option of self-employment. What I wanted to bring into the discussion is that in America there is nothing to protect a person from being fired from their job for keeping all ten commandments.

My experience is that if you keep all ten commandments in a professed Christian nation, you will not always be tolerated.

[koan]

telaquapacky wrote: Same to you

Speaking of which- have you ever had problems because of your Sabbath-keeping?

I lost my last job because I had to leave early on Friday during the winter, when sundown would fall around 4:00. My employer "tolerated" this until he could find a replacement who had no such unique needs. I finally decided a Sabbath-keeper in a Sunday-keeping world needs to own his own business.

I feel sorry for those who don't have the option of self-employment. What I wanted to bring into the discussion is that in America there is nothing to protect a person from being fired from their job for keeping all ten commandments.

My experience is that if you keep all ten commandments in a professed Christian nation, you will not always be tolerated.


I agree with you on the self employment thing. There is no going back once you start working for your own pockets.

People can be fired for all kinds of discriminatory reasons including appearance...the list goes on. If it is their business you are somewhat at their whims. Unfortunate, but like so many other things, a part of real life.

[telaquapacky]

gmc wrote: I can never understand how following the teachings of christ can turn in to a word for word belief in the old testament as the unchanged word of god. The god of the old testament is an intolerant harsh being. If JC came to earth to take on our sins and give us the new testament love thy neighbour etc then surely it replaces the old.Understandably, most people think that, but not everyone. Some of us believe that the whole Bible reflects the character of God as being just like Jesus, from Genesis to Revelation. This is something we call the "Larger View."

gmc wrote: Perhaps the greatest sin of all is to convince yourself you are right and everyone must believe as you do.Everyone thinks they're right. You think you're right, and you would prefer people to think as you do, otherwise you wouldn't be here writing persuasive posts. Where people go wrong is when they move from friendly persuasion to force.

In another post you said something about leaving people to their own sin, and they'll face God for it later. Have you ever considered that if you see someone doing something you know is wrong or stupid, and you say or do nothing, and they suffer for it, you have not really acted very lovingly toward that person? There are places in Scripture where God says to a believer, "What happened to so-and-so? You knew they were in trouble. Why didn't you say something?" Of course, this is all done in love. If you love someone, and they're going the wrong way, you try to help them. If they don't listen, you still love them, but you have to let them go their way. Some of us believe the ultimate end of the wicked is God in effect, letting them go their own way and reaping the results of their actions.

gmc wrote: Fundamenatilist christians are every bit as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims, tolerance is not part of their make up.They're more dangerous than Muslims. As I understand prophecy, Muslims aren't going to plunge the world into the final time of trouble that will bring the end of the world- professed "Christians" will.

gmc wrote: re creationism, my wife taught biology in an inner london school, she taught evolutiuon but found she had to add a caveat that this was only a theory and many believed otherwise-in creationism. Maybe the rest of us are too tolerant of religon?Cool! That's not "too tolerant." It's called intellectual honesty, and it's in short supply in the evolution science establishment, where they discard any evidence that weakens Darwin's theory, and blackball any scientists who bring it up.

[Ted]

I can't help but comment on telequapacky's post to gmc.

First of all I think that gmc has made a rather important observation concerning the character of God in the OT. In fact there are several different theologies in the OT not just one.

If we see in Jesus the Christ the true nature of God, and I believe that we do, then we do not see the nature of God as in Num 31 for one example.

I post because I enjoy discussion and debate. It also gives me further reason to study and seek the truth. I really don't care if others believe as I do. My faith is in the Risen Christ yet I am a pluralist by persuasion of the Holy Spirit. Our sermon today was on the three messages in the cross: radical love, radical inclusivism and radical transformation.

As far as evolution being a theory, that is true. In science theory results from the research of hypotheses and is generally considered true until proven otherwise. I have no problem whatsoever with evolution. That's the way God apparently did it.

As far as Darwin is concerned he got left behind a long time ago. To talk of Darwinism now is of little point. We have long ago gone way past Darwin. He began the study of evolution but Darwinism does not equal evolution as it stands today.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[telaquapacky]

I never said that the Bible is easy to understand. God told Isaiah, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I don't trust the opinions of men or "experts" on spiritual things.

There are three things people do when they don't understand the Bible:

1. Discard it altogether. Call it a book of myths and commentary, but flatter it by saying that it has good lessons for us. (Sound familiar?)

2. Pick what parts of the Bible fit your personal style or preferences, or the religion you were brought up in, and pretend that the other parts don't exist. (Sound familiar?)

3. Keep studying it earnestly, praying for God to guide you supernaturally into a true understanding of it (He promised to), and don't be satisfied until you have a body of doctrine that harmonizes with every verse in the book. There will be some apparent contradictions, but if your theology is right, the paradoxes won't be difficult to explain to a spiritually and intellectually honest and open-minded listener. Let the whole Bible be it's own interpreter.

I take number 3. Everything I believe harmonizes with the whole tenor of scripture, and if it doesn't, God and I are still working on it together. I'm a man of the Book- but you have to know how to handle it. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

The Bible is one consistent thread of consistent truth, showing a never-changing God, and His passionate efforts to lovingly save a stubborn, selfish, self-destructive human race, while competing with a lying, cheating adversary and his dark forces in the spiritual realm who want all of us to be lost, and use every trick to accomplish that. One of Satan's most effective tricks to deceive and destroy people is to undermine their trust in God's word.

[Clint]

telaquapacky wrote: I never said that the Bible is easy to understand. God told Isaiah, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I don't trust the opinions of men or "experts" on spiritual things.

There are three things people do when they don't understand the Bible:

1. Discard it altogether. Call it a book of myths and commentary, but flatter it by saying that it has good lessons for us. (Sound familiar?)

2. Pick what parts of the Bible fit your personal style or preferences, or the religion you were brought up in, and pretend that the other parts don't exist. (Sound familiar?)

3. Keep studying it earnestly, praying for God to guide you supernaturally into a true understanding of it (He promised to), and don't be satisfied until you have a body of doctrine that harmonizes with every verse in the book. There will be some apparent contradictions, but if your theology is right, the paradoxes won't be difficult to explain to a spiritually and intellectually honest and open-minded listener. Let the whole Bible be it's own interpreter.

I take number 3. Everything I believe harmonizes with the whole tenor of scripture, and if it doesn't, God and I are still working on it together. I'm a man of the Book- but you have to know how to handle it. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

The Bible is one consistent thread of consistent truth, showing a never-changing God, and His passionate efforts to lovingly save a stubborn, selfish, self-destructive human race, while competing with a lying, cheating adversary and his dark forces in the spiritual realm who want all of us to be lost, and use every trick to accomplish that. One of Satan's most effective tricks to deceive and destroy people is to undermine their trust in God's word.


Thank You. Very well said. I take number three too.

In answer to an earlier question: Yes, I'm looking for work now and it is difficult without the added issue of the Sabbath. I've been looking at owning my own business. I have to settle on something and get moving soon.

[Ted]

I certainly cannot agree on telaquapacky's view of the Bible.

He says it gives a consistent view of God right through. That is simply not true. Of course the easy cop out is to say that I don't understand the Bible. That is a cop out. That, it would appear to me, is the cop out used by those who are indeed afraid of the truth.

A close study of the Bible clearly shows that it is not consistent in its description of God. A close study of Biblical archaeology shows that the Bible is not consistent with the archaeological and historical record.

These bother the fundamentalist and/or the literalist. When reading the Bible with some knowledge of how it came to be and the writing styles of the ancients one comes to realize that the Bible was not intended to be read that way. It is a mixture of many genres of writing and makes great use of metaphor to convey the great truths that it holds.

Its a pick and chose what one wants to believe! That is absolute nonsense. It takes many years of study and prayer and meditation and discussion with scholars and researchers. Certainly its not the lazy man's way.

Other cop outs are: beware of false prophets, the devil with try to cloud your mind, you just want to have your cake and eat it too. Pure nonsense.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[koan]

Ted wrote: That is simply not true. :yh_rotfl

Ted's most often heard saying.

I most definately agree with you here, Ted.The idea that the God(s) of the bible are consistently portrayed or even seem like the same guy at times is completely irreconcilable with the text.

[Clint]

I have a friend who is on the Board of Regents for a mainstream denomination’s University. One of his biggest battles is that the congregations raise a child in the faith then send them to the university with high hopes. The child decides to study theology and the professors manage to destroy the child’s faith.

I have observed that the “highly educated” theology professors and their kind tend to be unable to sustain their own faith or encourage the faith of others. I think they are too deep into the forest to see the trees and too caught up in how intelligent they are to accept the thoughts of others. They live in a world where the key to success is a new thesis that comes across as original thinking. If they can't put it all in a neat package for consumption by others, they think they have failed.

I am content to know what I know and to continuously learn what I can. I accept that what I don’t understand will be like so many things I didn’t understand before. Piece by piece the puzzle is revealed. Unlike the typical theologian, I am able to see that my God is beyond His creation’s ability to understand and explain. I believe that if God and what he reveals of Himself in the Bible was as easy to understand as some claim, our faith would be diminished. If God was easy to understand He wouldn’t be as amazing to me as my wife is.

[telaquapacky]

Cop out? My dear brother Ted, I was actually being quite kind. I know that you understand the Bible. It's just that you disagree with what the Bible says. Your posts show a calculated anti-Bible agenda. The Bible doesn’t agree with your ideology, so you shoot the messenger because you don’t like the message, and you cover it up with the mask of scholarship. Go ahead, I’m not telling you to stop. I’m just advising you that some of us see right through you.

Talk about picking and choosing what to believe, you and your scholars pick and choose what of the Bible they accept and reject based on their opinions and preferences.

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

[capt_buzzard]

capt_buzzard wrote: One can be killed in Northern Ireland, because you are either a Roman Catholic or a Protestant.or just being a Christain. Now, today they are attacking the Asian community in Belfast, because they have a different colour skin or because they believe in a different religion to theirs.For more update information,



www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

[Ted]

telaquapacky :-6

I am anything but anti-Bible but if that is what you want to believe go for it.

As for seeing right through me: You have no idea. You don't know what you are talking about. So you resort to personal attacks. But you are entitled to your judgment. It is of little consequence to me since my judge is the Risen Christ and I trust His judgment.

Have a nice day.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[telaquapacky]

Ted, it is not my intention (or right for that matter) to judge you. Neither of us is perfect, though praise the Lord, He views us as if we were. You and I have very strong opposing opinions regarding the authority of Scripture, and probably some other things. You mentioned that you were ecumenical. I have issues with the ecumenical movement as well, but one thing I do believe is that there is a unity in Christ so that what unites us- our Savior- is more important than what divides us. I want to continue to have frank discussions with you and have the liberty to disagree, but when I call you "my dear brother," I'm not patronizing you. I want to be your brother in Christ. Please don't require me to agree with you in everything as a condition of our brotherhood.

[Ted]

telaquapacky :-6

Thanks for that post. First of all I don't ask that anyone believe as I do. Though my beliefs are generally supported by most of the mainline churches in Canada. All I ask is an understanding.

As for sharing of ideas even though they seem in opposition. I am more then happy to do that. I love good discussion and debate as long as it doesn't get personal. I know that sometimes we all say things that might be taken that way but generally that is not my style.

It is our job to promote the kingdom of God both here on earth and after the parousia. One great writer, and I don't remember who, said that yes we are to evangelize but with words only if necessary. It can be done. I know it. I've done it.

And you are absolutely correct that it is in Christ that we are all one. Now if only I or someone could convince the Roman Catholic Church of that. I've tried as I have mentioned elsewhere. It was like banging ones head against a brick wall with spikes sticking out of the mortar.

Your brother in Christ.

Ted

[telaquapacky]

Ted wrote: And you are absolutely correct that it is in Christ that we are all one. Now if only I or someone could convince the Roman Catholic Church of that. I've tried as I have mentioned elsewhere. It was like banging ones head against a brick wall with spikes sticking out of the mortar.

Your brother in Christ.

TedThank you, Ted. In Christ, we don't need the heads of our churches to sign some document. Nobody owns either the blood of Christ or the grace of God, in which we are brothers.

Please forgive me if I was presumptuous. I am what some would inaccurately call a "literalist" (yes, I believe Jonah took a ride in the belly of a big fish), but I have not come to many of the same conclusions as most literalists have. I see that I shouldn't assume that you have come to all the same conclusions as all those of the new theology (for lack of knowing what to call it). I'll try to be more understanding.

[gmc]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoon ... igious.asp

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/r/religious.asp

Ted Telepaquacky, clint at least you've decided to disagree and not fight about it. Two thousand years of christian history and you've progressed.-if that comes across as facetious and it is not actually supposed to but it's late at night and I'm too tired to rethink the way I phrased it. No offence intended.

I've given up trying to understand religon, you all believe in one god but fight over the best way to worship on the assumption that this all knowing over being can't tell whether you are sincere or not. But if god loves all equally despite all the failings does it really matter? Christian Muslim if thgere is omly one god what is there to argue about once you believe such a thing.

Priests use the bible or the koran to exert control over their followers taking great delight in those who don't come up to scratch going to hell and damnation which never quite gels with the forgiving god of the new testament. I tend to think that the vicious god of the old testament appeals to those who take delight in their moral superiority over others finding in the old testament all the justification they need for the contempt and hatred of those who are different from them that they feel but can't justify to themselves but can when they find just exactly the wording they need in the old testament. Respecting your fellow man (or woman) and accepting them and appreciating them for what they are as made by god is just so much harder and not nearly so much fun as calling them abominations and condemned to hell and making life miserable for those that don't conform here on earth. especially when you get to decide what is normal.

If catholics, protestant, muslims whatever are so firm in their belief then why try and prevent anything that does not quite match their beliefs (evolution etc) being taught? What are they afraid of that people might think for themselves and question their faith? Where in the new testament did JC demand blind unquestioning obedience after all if god gave us free will then surely we are supposed to use it, why do so many religious groups want to force others to their ways, believe as thay do, behave as they do and condemn those who do not agree. Let god decide, stop pretending you know what he meant.

Perhaps I am by nature a natural protestant, I do not need a priest to interpret for me I am just as intelligent as any of them and can decide for myself.

[nev]

BeautifulDreamer wrote: Hello everyone, I'm new and interested in your community. Pretty nice!

Regarding religious wars, is it not values that determine whether we fight and what we fight for? Unfortunately, values originate from early religious training or the conditioning our parents gave us about how to think.

(Blessed is he that can form a thought no one has' told' him or about which he has not 'read'.) By its very nature, religion is exclusive, i.e., " I belong and you don't". This attitute has no other path to take but to eventually turn one group against another. Ok, religion might not be *totally* resonsible--but I would say it makes a mighty contribution.

I say more God (or whatever you perceive as the ultimate intelligence) and less organized religion. What say you?


Welcome!

Whenever I read anything about any of the various gods people seem to follow, I find in their essential teachings that they talk about are love towards self and others; hope for a better life; faith in that god; living together as a human beings that try to get on as being a more rewarding way of living; that violence gets us nowhere; etc etc. I wonder sometimes whether actually all the gods really are just one and the same god worshipped in different ways by different people who each think only their way is right.

I find personally that following the words of Jesus Christ and basing my life on a relationship with him seems to answer my questions more effectively. The rules and structures set up by my Roman Catholic Religion, guides me a but also frustrates me in it's narrow mindedness, exclusiveness, restrictiveness, guilt creating and certainly in many ways does not really follow the teachings of Christ as I see them.

So I will ponder on what you say - perhaps more God and less organised religion could get us on better track.

[telaquapacky]

nev wrote: I find personally that following the words of Jesus Christ and basing my life on a relationship with him seems to answer my questions more effectively. The rules and structures set up by my Roman Catholic Religion, guides me a but also frustrates me in it's narrow mindedness, exclusiveness, restrictiveness, guilt creating and certainly in many ways does not really follow the teachings of Christ as I see them.

So I will ponder on what you say - perhaps more God and less organised religion could get us on better track.Nev, if I belonged to a church that was narrow minded, exclusive, restrictive, guilt-creating and in many ways did not really follow the teachings of Christ, and I wanted to follow Christ and base my life on a relationship with Him...

There are other churches ya know. If more God and less organized religion, why this slavish (forgive my bluntness) loyalty to an organized religion?

(ducking) don't hit me. I'm not suggesting anything to you- really, I'm only curious why people stick with churches they're dissatisfied with. Can you unpack that for me?

[Ted]

gmc :-6

An excellent post and worth considering on the part of everyone.

Beautiful Dreamer :-6

Welcome. Unfortunately exclusivity is the norm in most faiths but a close examination of the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth will show that Christianity was intended to be an inclusive faith.



I also believe that God has a thousand names: God, Allah, the Creator etc.

telaquapacky :-6

Thanks. I certainly don't disagree with that. We all perceive things differently at times.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[nev]

telaquapacky wrote: Nev, if I belonged to a church that was narrow minded, exclusive, restrictive, guilt-creating and in many ways did not really follow the teachings of Christ, and I wanted to follow Christ and base my life on a relationship with Him...

There are other churches ya know. If more God and less organized religion, why this slavish (forgive my bluntness) loyalty to an organized religion?

(ducking) don't hit me. I'm not suggesting anything to you- really, I'm only curious why people stick with churches they're dissatisfied with. Can you unpack that for me?


Hi

You make a valid point and it's a discussion I have with many friends, some who are like me and others who disagree.

My family is made up of various kinds of people. I get frustrated by them, I fight them sometimes, I accept their ways sometimes but I do not forsake them. But I do have limits and when those limits are exceeded I do walk away.

Jesus has put me into the family of Roman Catholic faith. I do not believe he wants me to give up just yet. My life is guided by what I believe is right. From the Roman Catholic faith I will enjoy what I can and also fight for what I believe is right until he tells me it is time to stop.

Also for many years now I attend other Christian Churches and other religions to learn and improve my understanding of other communities. I must admit that in all of them I see good things which I learn from but I also see narrow mindedness, exclusiveness, restrictiveness, guilt-creation and in many ways they seem to have the same weaknesses in not really following the appropriate teachings - translations seem to be convenient rather then truthful.

Hope I have answered your question.

[telaquapacky]

nev wrote: Hope I have answered your question.Thanks, Nev. Understood. And my condolences to the loss of your church leader. He will be missed.

[nev]

telaquapacky wrote: Thanks, Nev. Understood. And my condolences to the loss of your church leader. He will be missed.


My pleasure and thank you.

[gmc]

posted by beautifuldreamer

Regarding religious wars, is it not values that determine whether we fight and what we fight for? Unfortunately, values originate from early religious training or the conditioning our parents gave us about how to think.




Good question.

original post by clint

There are many who charge that war and other atrocities are caused by religion. It is true that some wars and some atrocities are the result of religious conflict. It is also true that many wars and many atrocities happen for totally different reasons. People fight over land, hunting grounds, fishing, air space, forms of government, water, oil, food, and a host of other reasons. Could it be that we actually have fewer wars and fewer atrocities because of the values taught by most religions? Could it be that things would be a lot worse if men hadn’t been taught to love their neighbor and not to steal or murder? I think a better case could be made for religion’s calming effect than what we so often hear from the religion haters. How many wars would we have had without religion's influence?


Early wars were about land and resources or just for fun, medeival wars the crusades for example were pretty much the same. Religom gives an new twist to an old desire to wage war-god is on your side gives moral courage and helps get people to join with you.

Old testament when the israelites went in to the promised land it was already being used by somebody else. Tribal warfare over resources with a religious twist.

For every so called religious war you can also find economic reasons as well. Religon is part of the picture for good or evil take your pick,

Take the present conflict in Iraq. War over resources, religious conflict or tribal warfare in a modern guise? If anyone has a simple answer I would love to hear it.

On a more primitive level what will make you fight in your daily life? Instinct is to try and talk your way out of conflict yet every now and then you willl face situations with verbal threat displays, physical threat displays etc we have a highly structured society that at its heart evolved to avoid constant conflict but at the end of the day you are the one that takes the decision to use violence or not. You can't blame other people for decisions you make.

Say for instance somebody really cuts you up in traffic, you decide how to react if you become angry it is your choice not theirs-how often have you heard someone say "they were asking for it" Somebody tries to pick a fight in a bar do you have the confidence to walk away how do you react? Do you "keep the heid" (scots colloquialism for you, it means stay calm) or lose it.?

Unfortunately, values originate from early religious training or the conditioning our parents gave us about how to think.


Perhaps they do but at what point do you make up your own mind and become responsible for your own actions.

[Ted]

gmc :-6

Excellent post. Well done.

Shalom

Ted :-6