Prayer Circle

amale · Post by **amale** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:12 pm

I have heard of prayer circle, that is some one prays for others, and they say it is effective. what do you think

CVX · Post by **CVX** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:35 pm

amale wrote: I have heard of prayer circle, that is some one prays for others, and they say it is effective. what do you think

I believe they work. Mind you, a person doesn't always get what they pray for. But the results are sometimes astounding.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:59 pm

I think a gathering or union of people with the same intentions who focus on a goal, regardless of religious purpose or not, create "thoughtforms" that create reality. In the same way but to lesser effect is the practice of imaging or picturing your goals to help achieve them.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:21 am

amale wrote: I have heard of prayer circle, that is some one prays for others, and they say it is effective. what do you think
Whether prayer works or not is no longer a question. There have been enough studies done on the subject to put the question to rest. Prayer works. A prayer circle could be a prayer square and still have the same result. When we pray in agreement with others, for some reason, the results are better. James taught that if someone is sick they should call the elders (not the elder) to pray for them and anoint them with oil. It works.

We have to be careful when praying in a group so that we donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t enter into what I call competitive prayer. We need to be praying to God and not praying to impress the other people in the group. A beautiful prayer is just thatÃ¢â‚¬¦ a thing of beauty. An effectual prayer comes from the heart and no matter how it sounds to us, it is a sweet aroma to God.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:06 am

During my morning prayers, I pray for others and then for myself. It gives me peace. I have also seen it working.

Post by **nev** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:48 pm

amale wrote: I have heard of prayer circle, that is some one prays for others, and they say it is effective. what do you think

My experience is that they are generally effective. Depends on the type of group you join and how flexible/sociable they are. Great way of getting people together especially those who might be facing personal difficulties.

I once came accross a prayer circle run by the Roman Catholic Organisation called Opus Dei; I did not enjoy it at all and was not impressed with what I felt was their secrecy and hidden agenda. So I would steer well clear of them - my opinion!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:09 pm

My experience is that they do work. My wife is involved in one with our church. When a name comes up each member is phones and prayers are said by individuals in the privacy of their homes.

I just attended a healing workshop yesterday where we discussed the practise of healing prayer.

It works.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:46 pm

sagan wrote: Not sure about that at all.

Can you post some studies? Some studies where the protocol of the study, methodology, and statistical evidence is shown. Here's a tip, don't use the one produced by Columbia University and the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, a study that Time magazine describes as: "a flawed study co-authored by a medically-illiterate con man".

Alternatively, if you can't think of anything to say to him, just burn a goat. God likes that sweet aroma as well.
Prayer is like any kind of imaging. Anthony Robbins sure made a fortune teaching people how to do it. Whether the thought and image is for riches or for healing it is still the same principle but the healing goal is more worthy. I think there is a lot of proof that picturing something happening can help attain the result. Very practical example: Hitting free shots in basketball. Every good player knows how to image.

The goat thing was just crass. :wah:

amale · Post by **amale** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:10 pm

koan wrote: I think a gathering or union of people with the same intentions who focus on a goal, regardless of religious purpose or not, create "thoughtforms" that create reality. In the same way but to lesser effect is the practice of imaging or picturing your goals to help achieve them.

I WILL BE starting a prayer circle web site soon... you all should join

amale · Post by **amale** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:12 pm

billyandmichellecoffey wrote: I do think that a pray circle helps those who are prayed for. I have a child that has cerebral palsy and hydrocephlus ( i think that is how it is spelled). He was nine months old when we found out that what was wrong with him. Only the doctor told us that he would not live until he was three years old even if he had surgery. He said that he did not have a brain only a brain stem. Well we had pray circles going on everywhere for him and when we took him to a neurosurgeon he told us that he would live until the Lord took him home. He had the surgery and if fixing to turn 13 years old. So yes i think pray circles work.

thank you for sharing... Jesus loves your child

amale · Post by **amale** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:14 pm

koan wrote: Prayer is like any kind of imaging. Anthony Robbins sure made a fortune teaching people how to do it. Whether the thought and image is for riches or for healing it is still the same principle but the healing goal is more worthy. I think there is a lot of proof that picturing something happening can help attain the result. Very practical example: Hitting free shots in basketball. Every good player knows how to image.

The goat thing was just crass. :wah:

koan thanks... are you into graphic industry ...lol

but you have said it right...we have to have a goal..the goal of the prayer,

the image within you....just great

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:00 pm

sagan wrote: There's a big difference between using techniques that focus concentration, and intercessory prayer Koan. Every so often we get a statistical study that Ã¢â‚¬ËœprovesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ that intercessory prayer works, yet not one have stood up to close scrutiny.

This subject was first studied by Francis Galton, who published Statistical Inquiries Into the Efficacy of Prayer, in 1872. His conclusion that: Ã¢â‚¬Å“No correlation between prayer and any measurable effect on the natural world.Ã¢â‚¬ has been borne out by every other subsequent study conducted under controlled conditions by reputable organisations - such as the Mayo Institute.

But I have it on the highest authority! God likes the smell of burning animal flesh.
http://www.mindpub.com/art031.htm.............

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:22 pm

sagan

Try telling Wiccans that uttering words with specific intention doesn't work. They might be quite happy to give you a demonstration. Personally, I like to visualize as well

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:27 pm

It is nothing new that some people believe prayer works and others donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t. I doubt a study could be done that would satisfy those who are so strongly motivated to prove payer doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t work. Maybe there is some healing done by suggestion. How does one quantify what was by suggestion and what wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t? The study that would satisfy the doubting atheist would be impossible to accomplish.

The question that comes to me is, why does it bother some people so much that others believe in prayer? If a doctor thinks a patient will be healed by prescribing a placebo, I would expect the doctor to write the prescription because of the good it will do. Why do those who think that prayer only has a placebo effect want to eliminate it and the good that it does, even if for the placebo effect? If they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t believe in prayer why donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t they simply abstain from prayer? The only time IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m personally motivated into action is to either stop something I deeply believe is evil or to encourage something I believe is good. How could prayer be judged as evil?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:35 pm

Clint :-6

An excellent post.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:25 pm

sagan wrote: Different issue Koan. There is no doubt that prayer has a placebo effect, this is well documented. However, this is a psychological effect not a spiritual one. Every reputable study has shown that in the cases where control groups were not told who would, or who would not be receiving prayers, there is absolutley no statistical difference between them on any objective measurement such as mortality rates, length of hospital stay, etc.

I don't see it as a different issue. Whether one believes the desired effect is going to be acquired through one's own power of visualization, power from a energy source of any description including God, or just through the implanting of positive ideas in the mind of the person to be healed it is all the same to me. I think some forms of 'practice' are more effective than others. I'll tell you why I believe in it at all.

I have had the misfortune but then good fortune of having had really crappy physicians who came last in their class (I'm sure). One doctor, when I complained of painful abdominal bloating a number of years ago, told me I was getting fat. Turns out it is a symptom of cancer that she might have overlooked. Main point being: Every time something has gone physically wrong in my life I have had to heal it without the help of physicians or medicine. There are a lot of things that work. I know because I have been ill, used the alternate therapies...including magick and healing prayer, and been cured of what doctors said they couldn't help with. I discovered it works because I had to. As a result I am now a healer and if it didn't work I wouldn't be doing it.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:26 pm

koan :-6

I could say the same thing about myself but many others as well. Well put.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:36 pm

A religious faith has been absolutely invaluable to many millions of people past and present. Atheism offers nothing in its place. In fact Neitzhe himself cried out for God in the last years of his life.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:17 pm

I would think that someone who is ill would be willing to try anything.

sagan,

if I told you I was praying for you, would it make you angry? would you appreciate my good intentions? would you hope it could work? If one hundred people prayed for you at the same time, visualizing you healing, would you resent them? or just think them foolish?

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:18 pm

sagan wrote: No Koan, it wouldn't make me angry, and yes, I'd appreciate your good intentions. However, I'd also think you were wasting your time. I'm afraid the sceptical streak I possess will only accept such things as intercessory prayer and related phenomena as valid when they are nailed down fact, (or at the very least, when the weight of statistical evidence overwhelmingly points to their existence.)

If the only required ingredient for success was blind faith... What do you have to lose? That's what I don't understand. It it failed you, would you be worse off? You are disappointed in life anyway, are you not?

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:07 pm

tmbsgrl wrote: I think they work.. Prayer is a strong thing... afterall you are talking to The Lord!

One can only agree with you.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:23 pm

sagan wrote: Koan, if the only requirement for success was blind faith we wouldn't be having this conversation!

If blind faith worked, we would be seeing the results every day from all around the world, and James Randi would be 1,000,000 dollars poorer!

Well, apart from the muscle spasms, memory and attention span dysfunction, and problems walking I'm fine! I have M.S., remember?

The explanation you seek gets too complicated. To get to the end result you have to make a series of leaps of blind faith. For those who do, in the end, if they still die they do so feeling that it is God's will and that they are meant to return home. They die in peace.

Of course I remember. I am also thinking of a young woman who is fighting cancer with three children to care for and one of her daughters having been diagnosed with lupus. Her faith is what keeps her going and gives her strength to care for and help her children. Without that faith she would likely fall apart. So, do you want to tell her that her only way of survival is a load of crap. That's who you are talking to when you make the bold statements that you do. It is not crap if it is helping her. Who are you to take that from her or anyone else?

And I still don't see what peace your athiesm gives you. Neither can be proven. Why not believe something that gives solace? If it does give you solace, why?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:04 pm

koan :-6

I thought that your last post was excellent. I understand exactly what you were getting at. As I've said before Sagan doesn't get it. Of course he makes no effort to get it even though it does not require that he change his own thinking.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:07 pm

nev wrote: My experience is that they are generally effective. Depends on the type of group you join and how flexible/sociable they are. Great way of getting people together especially those who might be facing personal difficulties.

I once came accross a prayer circle run by the Roman Catholic Organisation called Opus Dei; I did not enjoy it at all and was not impressed with what I felt was their secrecy and hidden agenda. So I would steer well clear of them - my opinion!And right you should be.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:43 pm

Ted wrote: koan :-6

I thought that your last post was excellent. I understand exactly what you were getting at. As I've said before Sagan doesn't get it. Of course he makes no effort to get it even though it does not require that he change his own thinking.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I agree with you Ted. Koan hit the nail on the head and you make an excellent point as well. Sagan is hurting and his lashing out is hurting others.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:19 pm

Clint :-6

Even atheists can display love and compassion. They don't have to change their religion views in order to do that.

Of course one doesn't see atheist organizations running soup kitchens, clothing those in need, supporting overseas work that does not involve proselytization, working with troubled youth in some of the inner cities, supporting the dying etc.

It is definitey easy to criticize from a distance. That way one doesn't have to become involved.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:29 pm

I don't pray anymore. I speak to my God, as I understand Him

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:38 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: I don't pray anymore. I speak to my God, as I understand Him
Are you trying to get me all confused Captain.?

I thought prayer was a conversation with God. As with any conversation at least half of it needs to be listening.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:53 pm

I was unsure if I was going to respond again as sagan suggested I shouldn't and the point seems to have been made.

I am disappointed that he left. I found him witty and intelligent just never able to discuss anything on a personal or emotional level. It is, after all, a part of being human that deserves a place in reasoning.

I will miss him.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:03 am

capt_buzzard wrote: I don't pray anymore. I speak to my God, as I understand Him

I also speak to my God as I understand Him and I call it prayer.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:53 pm

Clint wrote: Are you trying to get me all confused Captain.?

I thought prayer was a conversation with God. As with any conversation at least half of it needs to be listening.

No Clint, I was speaking about some Churches who have long winded prayers to GOD.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:41 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: No Clint, I was speaking about some Churches who have long winded prayers to GOD.
I'm glad I'm not God.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:46 pm

My God is not in buildings built by man

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:22 pm

I think it is one of the nice things about churches that people feel they can go there to pray and that they feel that they are closer to God's ear when they are there. Not everybody needs a church to pray but it's still nice that they are there for those that do. I think some people feel it lends strength to their prayer that they went to the church to speak it.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:47 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: My God is not in buildings built by man
My God is in buildings, around buildings, under buildings, above buildings and where there aren't any buildings at all but most of all He is within me. Sound familiar?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:53 pm

Clint wrote: My God is in buildings, around buildings, under buildings, above buildings and where there aren't any buildings at all but most of all He is within me. Sound familiar?Ok you win:-1

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:00 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Ok you win:-1
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:09 pm

Let us come together in Peace, Love and Friendship.:-6

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:22 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Let us come together in Peace, Love and Friendship.:-6

Oh yes, I lost my composure, Im sorry.... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ammmmmmmmmmmm :guitarist :-6