The uk spends £44 thou a year on each junkie

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CARLA
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The uk spends £44 thou a year on each junkie

Post by CARLA »

I agree legalizing drugs is a huge mistake and for all the reasons you listed below.. You know the struggle and lived it. So glad you made it because knowing you is one of the joys in my life..;) knucklehead..

[QUOTE]The end result is legalizing drugs will make them readily available. No way around that. And in many regards that would endorse the use which very often leads to abuse.

I couldnt agree more that I was forced to confront myself and I had a choice to make. That decision lasted 5 yrs though. It was a culmination of misery heaped upon despair and a desire hidden somewhere to live. Not all make it though. My mom didnt. In the end she was abstinent but only after being commited to a state hospital. She'd lost her mind and quite honestly I doubt her will to live was intact. Same with Uncle Ronnie. After he drowned I found about 4-500 empty 1/2 gl bottles of gin in his house. He pissed his masters in education away because he couldnt beat it.

Nothing good comes from narcotics or alcohol when its abused. Like they say "reality is for those that cant deal with drugs"

Those clinics koan ? Their doors were always open. Most users dont just walk in.[/QUOTE]
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K.Snyder
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The uk spends £44 thou a year on each junkie

Post by K.Snyder »

koan;468714 wrote:

Legalizing drugs is not the same as endorsing drug use. The point of legalising them isn't really to make them more easily available it is make it so that they can be regulated. Prohibition encourages criminal organisations such as the mafia - as shown so clearly when alcohol was prohibited. The reasons that they lifted prohibition are the same reasons they should decriminalize the drug trade.


I dont believe that would work at all...

I believe making drugs legal would heighten the amount of use, which would in turn increase the amount of people who abuse drugs.

Look at methamphetamines. Over the counter drugs that's being tampered with to ensure a better high. And to legalize drugs would increase the amount of use, which would increase the amount of tolerance levels rising, leading to more potent drugs.

Its just a bad idea.

Not to mention adding to more health care problems and extended taxes.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;468743 wrote: The end result is legalizing drugs will make them readily available. No way around that. And in many regards that would endorse the use which very often leads to abuse.



I couldnt agree more that I was forced to confront myself and I had a choice to make. That decision lasted 5 yrs though. It was a culmination of misery heaped upon despair and a desire hidden somewhere to live. Not all make it though. My mom didnt. In the end she was abstinent but only after being commited to a state hospital. She'd lost her mind and quite honestly I doubt her will to live was intact. Same with Uncle Ronnie. After he drowned I found about 4-500 empty 1/2 gl bottles of gin in his house. He pissed his masters in education away because he couldnt beat it.

Nothing good comes from narcotics or alcohol when its abused. Like they say "reality is for those that cant deal with drugs"

Those clinics koan ? Their doors were always open. Most users dont just walk in.


Your desire, as is mine, is to reduce the number of addicts and to prevent as many deaths as possible. Read this bit of article and tell me what you think.

Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition. Those results are documented from a variety of sources, most of which, ironically, are the work of supporters of Prohibition--most economists and social scientists supported it. Their findings make the case against Prohibition that much stronger.

source
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CARLA
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Post by CARLA »

I respect your point of view Diuretic it is well thought out.

I just can't see where making drug legal will stop any of these activities. If anything it will make it worse. The prices will triple, and supply and demand will be even tighter than the controls the cartels now have, and they will continue to be just as involved if not more so.

Having health care involved writting perscriptions is not the answer either. It will be just as ugly, and even more people will be put at risk if they are legal.

This is not to say they shouldn't keep trying to come up with a way to stop drug consumption all over the world, making it legal isn't the answer.
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Post by koan »

There are seven good reasons to keep drugs illegal.

Health

Economics and psychosocial arguments

Drug prohibition as a solution to perceived problems of society

Commercial exploitation of addictive drugs

Sell-out and loss of 'counterculture'

Illegal drugs as a pragmatic counterweight to global trade imbalances

Moral and religious

There are nineteen good reasons to legalise drugs.

Moral and Religious

Personal freedom

Crime/terrorism

Prohibition causes more harm than good

Legal Dilemmas

Forbidding drugs can romanticize them

Criminalization increases profits for drug dealers

Economics

Consistency

Health

User cost of drugs increases crime to afford

Racism and unequal enforcement of drug laws

The creation of drug cartels

Effect on producer countries

Same policy for distinctive drugs

Illegal Drug Impurities

Homemade Drugs

Block to research

Legitimate Medical Use of Illegal Drugs

Short explanations of each are available here
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CARLA
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Post by CARLA »

Well then the UK can lead the way, if it work I'm sure other nations will follow.

I think it is a bad idea, for many reason the first being we can't control the drugs we have now that are legal. There is a huge black market for legal drugs. Just google vicodine,or Zanax, or Valium or any of the Class 1 drugs

I just can't see me standing in line waiting to pick up my blood pressure medicine, with someone else waiting to pick up their crack cocaine, opium, weed, smack, uppers whatever it's just not they way it should be. :thinking: But that is my opinion.
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Post by spot »

My attention has been focused on finishing some work over the last couple of days and it's likely to keep me preoccupied for a while longer but I'd like to interject a couple of observations into this thread if I may.

Prohibition exists on the supply and use of a range of consumables which are either addictive or psychoactive. The cost of that prohibition is a black market in those goods. Suppliers and users are criminalized. The jail population is higher than it would be were these activities not legislated against.

Prohibition does not exist on two specific consumables which are both addictive and psychoactive. Their supply and use are not criminalized. These are alcohol and tobacco.

To take tobacco first, there's a CDC webpage at http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/factsheets/T ... tsheet.htm on mortality associated with its use. Key phrases include: "Cigarette smoking causes ... about 1 of every 5 deaths, each year", "More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined", "On average, adults who smoke cigarettes die 13–14 years earlier than nonsmokers".

The second CDC paper, to fill the picture out a bit, is at http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/sci_data/n ... tality.pdf and indicates that "in 2003, a total of 20,687 persons died of alcohol-induced causes in the United States" - that figure excludes accidents in which alcohol consumption played a part. In the same period "28,723 persons died of drug-induced causes, a figure which includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of drugs (legal and illegal use), but also poisoning from medically prescribed and other drugs". Those figures can at least be compared in magnitude with the 440,000 deaths each year from tobacco use.

We seem to have developed two vocabularies to perpetuate the acceptability of legal discrimination against the minority problem. Low-life scum who should die rather than be a charge on taxes would be a typical phrase employed where the supply is illegal, but doesn't seem to be used often about the management of R J Reynolds. We jail people who grow cannabis plants for personal use, criminalizing them by the existence of the laws which define criminality, while sat at our keyboards with an ashtray in plain view. Smoking cigarettes isn't illegal. It's just a damn sight more dangerous than using cannabis. The choice of which one is criminalized, which is acceptable, is societal, but it has nothing to do with harm or lethality. "Low-life scum" isn't applied to the membership here while getting progressively less capable of coherent thought as the evening progresses and glass after glass of intoxicant is fetched from the fridge. We choose whom we target with hatred. We choose to criminalize and build more jails rather than allow the adult population to make an informed decision. The next time someone's offered a free rock of crack by a street dealer who's lying, in his own interest, that there's no clean cocaine to be had, consider how much healthier the trade would be if the punter had been able to buy his cocaine from the branded drug section of the local BevMo.

Why isn't cocaine or cannabis available at BevMo? Because it's illegal to sell it there. There's no other reason. They sell alcohol, and alcohol already kills more people than cocaine or cannabis ever could, it's a lethal poison unlike the other two. They sell tobacco, for which multiply by twenty.

The problem is societal willingness - or need, even - to hate outsiders. If you have an issue with low-life scum who ought to be dead, that's the issue to address first. It seems far more addictive than any mere chemical.
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Post by koan »

At the turn of the century there were more drug addicts than there are today. Addicts at that time were mostly war veterans and middle aged housewives. The addiction was caused by medicinal use on the one hand and snake oil salesmen on the other. Charles Whitebread, a university professor, and his research partner wrote a paper of the history of drug laws and were given access to both the open and the closed files of what was then called the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, what today is called the Drug Enforcement Agency. Whitebread's speech given on the history of non-medicinal drug use starts with the following note:

Then the single law which has done the most in this country to reduce the level of drug addiction is none of the criminal laws we have ever passed. The single law that reduced drug addiction the most was the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act.

The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 did three things:

1). It created the Food and Drug Administration in Washington that must approve all foods and drugs meant for human consumption. The very first impact of that was that the patent medicines were not approved for human consumption once they were tested.

2) The Pure Food and Drug Act said that certain drugs could only be sold on prescription.

3) The Pure Food and Drug Act, (and you know, this is still true today, go look in your medicine chest) requires that any drug that can be potentially habit-forming say so on it's label. "Warning -- May be habit forming."

The labeling requirements, the prescription requirements, and the refusal to approve the patent medicines basically put the patent medicine business out of business and reduced that dramatic source of accidental addiction. The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, not a criminal law, did more to reduce the level of addiction than any other single statute we have passed in all of the times from then to now.
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Post by Nomad »

Honestly Koan, I cant tell if your just throwing these ideas out there because you enjoy debate or you are convinced this is a good idea. I understand you have an analytical mind and perhaps you cant resist toying with us but none the less I have difficulty accepting you think this the right thing. No matter it will never happen so how about using those cells for a viable solution to addiction.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;469303 wrote: Honestly Koan, I cant tell if your just throwing these ideas out there because you enjoy debate or you are convinced this is a good idea. I understand you have an analytical mind and perhaps you cant resist toying with us but none the less I have difficulty accepting you think this the right thing. No matter it will never happen so how about using those cells for a viable solution to addiction.


I am quite convinced of my position. I enjoy debate and, on occasion, I am able to argue either side. In this particular issue, I am only comfortable taking the side of legalisation.

You started out implying that I had a view that was not well thought out. Quite contrary, the evidence shows that far greater minds than mine have been saying the same thing for a long time. I'm, to some extent, just hopping on the bandwagon here.

The likelihood that drugs will be legalised, as far as I'm concerned, is just a matter of time.

Before prohibition people would have assumed you mad if you'd told them that alcohol would be banned. During prohibition few believed it would ever be lifted. It is due to those who "waste their cells" thinking about alternatives that the wheels and cogs continue to turn.

There are only 7 arguments for keeping drugs illegal, there are 19 arguments for legalising. That gives me 12 good reasons to stay on my side of the debate. :)
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;469201 wrote:

The second CDC paper, to fill the picture out a bit, is at http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/sci_data/n ... tality.pdf and indicates that "in 2003, a total of 20,687 persons died of alcohol-induced causes in the United States" - that figure excludes accidents in which alcohol consumption played a part. In the same period "28,723 persons died of drug-induced causes, a figure which includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of drugs (legal and illegal use), but also poisoning from medically prescribed and other drugs". Those figures can at least be compared in magnitude with the 440,000 deaths each year from tobacco use.




Ha...

Yeah right,

add another couple hundred thousand to the drug induced figure per year from murders being commited as a result of drugs and this might be more accurate as an implication.
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Post by K.Snyder »

I dont think the prohibition of alcohol can be compared to that of the hypothetical scenario in which all drugs would be legalized...Drugs are far more unhealthy and lead to unethical decision making...

Drugs are not hard to get at all, and to legalize drugs would make it that much more easy for kids who live in the suburbs, who cant quite get them as easy as people who live within inner city limits, and would ultimately lead to more crime.

Manhattan would start to look like Queens, and suburbs would start looking like Compton.

Legalize drugs?

Surely this is a joke.
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Post by Accountable »

Alcohol is a drug - an addictive chemical, as is caffeine or the fun part of any recreational drug such as crack. The only difference between these chemicals is incremental. To consider them as separate categories is political. It is also a mistake.
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;469354 wrote: Ha...

Yeah right,

add another couple hundred thousand to the drug induced figure per year from murders being commited as a result of drugs and this might be more accurate as an implication.I'm delighted that you brought these to the attention of the thread - they'd all obviously come to an abrupt halt if these pernicious drugs were put on legal public sale, there would be no profit in illicit dealing from that moment on. No dealers, no import barons protecting their turf, no high prices for the product, tax revenue for the government, and most especially the "couple hundred thousand" lives saved. Annually, even. It sounds like the best argument yet for legalization, quality control and corporate involvement. Well done Snyder.
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Post by koan »

K.Snyder;469356 wrote: I dont think the prohibition of alcohol can be compared to that of the hypothetical scenario in which all drugs would be legalized...Drugs are far more unhealthy and lead to unethical decision making...

Drugs are not hard to get at all, and to legalize drugs would make it that much more easy for kids who live in the suburbs, who cant quite get them as easy as people who live within inner city limits, and would ultimately lead to more crime.

Manhattan would start to look like Queens, and suburbs would start looking like Compton.

Legalize drugs?

Surely this is a joke.


First of all, drugs have a wide range of medicinal uses.

Second, kids would have a harder time getting drugs if they dealers were eliminated and age restrictions regulated the buying of them at dispensaries.

Substitute the word "regulate" for "legalize" and perhaps this will all make more sense.
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Post by CARLA »

We have regulated many drugs through the FDA. Guess what we still can't get a handle on drug usage, and abuse.

Like I said CLASS #1 drugs are legal and people are breaking into Pharmacy's at gunpoint to get them since the cost for them is to high, or they don't have medical condition that warrants a perscription.

Some people actually take used perscription bottles out of dumpster and try to get them that way, while they steal your identity as well.

There is a huge market for buying and selling legal drugs on the internet. Do you really think all are legit??? Making a drug legal is no deterent for the user period. They will kill there mother's do get the money to buy them legal or not.

[QUOTE]Substitute the word "regulate" for "legalize" and perhaps this will all make more sense.[/QUOTE]
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WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"

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Post by koan »

CARLA;469402 wrote: We have regulated many drugs through the FDA. Guess what we still can't get a handle on drug usage, and abuse.
They are regulated and illegal. The complaint here is that the current legislation still can't get a handle on drug usage and abuse.



Like I said CLASS #1 drugs are legal and people are breaking into Pharmacy's at gunpoint to get them since the cost for them is to high, or they don't have medical condition that warrantys a perscription.
precisely



Some people actually take used perscription bottles out of dumpster and try to get them that way, while they steal your identity as well.
if there was no need for the prescription then the identity theft should be reduced as well - good point.



There is a huge market for buying and selling legal drugs on the internet. Do you really think all are legit??? Making a drug legal is no deterent for the user period. They will kill there mother's do get the money to buy them legal or not.
There is no indication that making more laws will reduce any of the conditions you are wanting to prevent. Keeping the laws in place as is has resulted in the conditions you are presenting. These are all the arguments against prohibition. I don't think you are intending to help me out but that is precisely what you have done.
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Post by woppy71 »

A lot of people seem to think that legalising hard drugs is the answer and that people should be allowed to make up their own minds wether they use drugs or not. The problem is that almost all hard drugs are extremely addictive and mind altering, so much so that a person can no longer make considered and rational decisions about wether to stop taking drugs or not.

I realy do feel that legalising hard drugs would create a massive increase in usage and would create an epidemic of drug use. Bad no matter which way you look at it. What we have to do, In my opinion, is to hit the sellers and suppliers as hard as humanly possible. Stop the supply. In that way, I think we're pretty much heading in the right direction to curb drug use :).
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Post by koan »

woppy71;469433 wrote: A lot of people seem to think that legalising hard drugs is the answer and that people should be allowed to make up their own minds wether they use drugs or not. The problem is that almost all hard drugs are extremely addictive and mind altering, so much so that a person can no longer make considered and rational decisions about wether to stop taking drugs or not.

I realy do feel that legalising hard drugs would create a massive increase in usage and would create an epidemic of drug use. Bad no matter which way you look at it. What we have to do, In my opinion, is to hit the sellers and suppliers as hard as humanly possible. Stop the supply. In that way, I think we're pretty much heading in the right direction to curb drug use :).


You make a reasonable assumption, woppy, but you are guessing. The facts indicate the opposite.

It has been shown that ending prohibition reduces the use of hard drugs as it has in countries such as The Netherlands.

The facts available from the prohibition of alcohol refute what you say. It is, imo, the strongest argument for legalisation.
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Post by spot »

woppy71;469433 wrote: I realy do feel that legalising hard drugs would create a massive increase in usage and would create an epidemic of drug use. Bad no matter which way you look at it. What we have to do, In my opinion, is to hit the sellers and suppliers as hard as humanly possible. Stop the supply. In that way, I think we're pretty much heading in the right direction to curb drug use :).And how many years has the "War on Drugs", or whatever words were in use when the Cartel was being bombed at home, been in progress? Would you not expect that "hit the sellers and suppliers as hard as humanly possible" would have had an effect on supply and demand by now if it were ever going to? Wasn't Panama invaded just to detain Noriega, a long time ago?

It's been done for decades, Woppy, and it hasn't improved matters one iota. It's filled the jail with criminalized users who wouldn't be criminals at all if the prohibition laws hadn't been enacted and enforced. The simple truth is that prohibition generates crime out of nothing and offers profits to criminals out of what would otherwise be as respectable a trade as distilling rum and rolling cigars. You think there'd be an epidemic of drug use. Perhaps that's comparable to the epidemic of alcohol consumption or the epidemic of tobacco smoking. Those are social activities. So is drug use, in any shape and form, until it's demonised by a government for whatever lunatic reason gets into its collective mind.

Nothing, but nothing, about drug use could possibly be worse than what we have now under prohibition.
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Post by woppy71 »

Well, perhaps we should legalise it then, so as well as kids being able to get alcohol and tabacco easily, they can now go and get some H or crack and then it really is odds on that they will end up killing them selves. What a great future my son will have. :-2
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Post by spot »

woppy71;469463 wrote: Well, perhaps we should legalise it then, so as well as kids being able to get alcohol and tabacco easily, they can now go and get some H or crack and then it really is odds on that they will end up killing them selves. What a great future my son will have. :-2The point of proposing to sell all this stuff from the same outlets that currently handle alcohol and tobacco is that they're already age-restricted. What reason have you to think that the likely rules on selling to minors would be any different to the rules already in use?

Why would anyone use crack if other less addictive drugs are on open sale? The reason there was a crack epidemic was a real or fluctuating or simulated shortage of other stuff, not that anyone obove moron grade thought taking it would be an improvement. I'd have thought crack use would plummet, not increase.

You think cocaine is more addictive than alcohol? I don't. Or cannabis more than tobacco? Or LSD addictive? Or lethal? Alcohol and tobacco are, strangely enough, practically the worst recreational drugs going in terms of their ability to maim people and prematurely bring their lives to a miserable end. Even opium comes way short of alcohol. You mention H and crack, the idiot drugs - the drugs tailored to enhance their addictive qualities. Theyre a result of criminal drug dealers wanting a captive market. Maybe R J Reynolds would be more civic minded in their advertizing if they were permitted to market the full range of options instead of the core products in this year's catalog.

I'd much rather my son used cannabis than a pack of cigarettes a day were it legal for him to do either and he insisted on doing one of them. I'd much rather he experimented with ecstacy than with spirits, spirits kill a lot more people stone dead than E ever did.

You have drug users divided into "socially acceptable" and "low life scum". I'd rather divide the range of drugs in terms of safer to lethal. I'd definitely want to stop locking people up for trading or using any of them, that's just pure win for everyone with no lose.

You think "they will end up killing themselves"? What on earth are the 400,000 deaths each year from tobacco use supposed to represent? Try a bit of perspective and a little less prejudice.
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Post by koan »

ArnoldLayne;469453 wrote: As I see it, most people are responsible for their actions and the majority tend to stay on the right side of the law.

Once drugs are legal, what stops an individual from at least experimenting with say speed - a recreational drug - knowing that he has not broken any law. I mention speed as it is generally a common drug and doesnt have the stigma of heroin. His actions might even be said to have been sanctioned by the legality of such a substance.

Again, try the recreational drug a couple of times more and, by design, the drug will suck you in. You will need more and more of it to sustain the original buzz you still expect and may involve the need for other drugs to counter any withdrawal

Bang ! Your hooked

Still what the hell. Treatments free right ?


Drug dealers are called "pushers" for a reason. Regulated outlets would not be run by people who try to sell you cocaine when you ask for LSD. Forget selling it, they give it away...at first. It's classic con. The addiction levels go down when people can buy exactly what they want when they want it and how much they want. The potency of the drug is guaranteed to be within a certain level. Exactly what you want and what strength they are expecting.

"Bang ! You're hooked" is what the dealers go for. It is part of what 'we' are trying to stop. 'We' being people that support legalisation.
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Post by spot »

ArnoldLayne;469521 wrote: I do however see that it (legalising) may eliminate certain amount of crime but that in itself wont stop drug using and addictionI think it's been pointed out from several viewpoints here that nothing ever will. Minimizing the damage to society is a reasonable thing to aim for instead, though. Quality control and the destruction of the dealer market would be a big plus for everyone. Your arguments so far about progressive shifts of gear to more intake and stronger alternatives applies to alcohol consumption in spades, for example. Or does nobody become addicted to that?

To speak of eliminating a certain amount of crime as though that wouldn't be a huge achievement is a bit dismissive of a worthy and achievable aim..
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;469361 wrote: I'm delighted that you brought these to the attention of the thread - they'd all obviously come to an abrupt halt if these pernicious drugs were put on legal public sale, there would be no profit in illicit dealing from that moment on. No dealers, no import barons protecting their turf, no high prices for the product, tax revenue for the government, and most especially the "couple hundred thousand" lives saved. Annually, even. It sounds like the best argument yet for legalization, quality control and corporate involvement. Well done Snyder.


I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Alcohol and tobacco are affordable in conjunction to the people who buy alcohol and tobacco. The majority of people who use and abuse illegal drugs are people with low income, if any legitimate income at all(selling crack/ Welfare). Monopolizing hardcore drugs is not going to lessen the need for those drugs anymore than it already is at the same time exposing itself to more people who wouldn't normally be exposed to it. The idea of "controlling" drugs by legalizing them is not going to decrease demand, if anything the average person addicted to those very same drugs per capitol will increase. People will still commit crimes to get more drugs, because people are not going to stop selling them, just because they would hypothetically be legal. It proves itself...they are illegal now, what makes you think people are going to stop selling them if they do become legal? There will still be "illegal" drug dealers, only to have the end result make the entire drug market drop in prices as a means to stay ahead of the competition and an overall increase in extremely bad mind altering drugs on the street.
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Post by K.Snyder »

koan;469369 wrote: First of all, drugs have a wide range of medicinal uses.

Second, kids would have a harder time getting drugs if they dealers were eliminated and age restrictions regulated the buying of them at dispensaries.

Substitute the word "regulate" for "legalize" and perhaps this will all make more sense.


Thats the point, nothing will get regulated...it's illegal now and they cant regulate it, so how are they going to regulate something that is legal?
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Post by K.Snyder »

koan;469444 wrote:

It has been shown that ending prohibition reduces the use of hard drugs as it has in countries such as The Netherlands.




That's like performing a hypothesis in Beverly hills in comparison to Los Angeles.

Ask 100 people who they are voting for and then assume that is how the majority of the world feels.
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Post by koan »

There is so much wrong information being spouted as fact here it is hard to know where to start...or where it is going to end.

I work in the film industry. Let me assure you these people are not broke or even close to the side of low income. One producer was only making movies so that he could retire and live on heroin for the rest of his days. At least 80% of the grips and electrics do cocaine on a regular basis - meaning every weekend. Once they've been in the industry for a while the keep small amounts in their wallet. It is helpful so that they can offer some to actors and get a chance to socialize. Think of the drug use among movie stars alone. We know about them because a number of them are making the headlines whenever they get caught.

The illegality of drugs romanticises them. It's "cool". Try telling the film industry otherwise. They will disagree. Make it legal and they won't be so proud of being able to get their hands on it. Because having a "good supplier" is a brag in the industry.

People currently follow the habits that are being predicted here. There is no prediction necessary it is not a "may" it's a "do". The addiction patterns already exist. Legalising it won't change that or make it worse. It's a non factor.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;469497 wrote: The point of proposing to sell all this stuff from the same outlets that currently handle alcohol and tobacco is that they're already age-restricted. What reason have you to think that the likely rules on selling to minors would be any different to the rules already in use?




Minors would still get the stuff, and it would be alot easier for them to get it if it were legal...

Only instead of puking their guts out and having a bad headache, they are going into convulsions and cardiac arrest. :yh_think
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Post by koan »

K.Snyder;469541 wrote: That's like performing a hypothesis in Beverly hills in comparison to Los Angeles.

Ask 100 people who they are voting for and then assume that is how the majority of the world feels.


Here's how it works: I managed to find a real life practical example of the benefits of lifting prohibition. If you can find a real life example of prohibition being beneficial then go get it. Otherwise you have no counter. Move on to another fight.
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Post by koan »

K.Snyder;469554 wrote: Minors would still get the stuff, and it would be alot easier for them to get it if it were legal...

Only instead of puking their guts out and having a bad headache, they are going into convulsions and cardiac arrest. :yh_think


Minors do get drugs if they want it now.

Improving the quality of what they are getting would reduce the number of convulsions and cardiac arrest.
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Post by woppy71 »

K.Snyder;469554 wrote: Minors would still get the stuff, and it would be alot easier for them to get it if it were legal...

Only instead of puking their guts out and having a bad headache, they are going into convulsions and cardiac arrest. :yh_think


:yh_clap:yh_clap

Well said :)
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Post by spot »

Keith W;469529 wrote: A psychoactive substance is any substance that people take to change either the way they feel, think, or behave. This includes alcohol and tobacco as well as natural and manufactured drugs.And yet both are legally sold and consumed, Keith. Both kill far more people than drugs dealt on the street. Both are considered socially acceptable. Defining "bad" drugs by the current state of legislation is fine. If you change the legislation to allow them to be sold and used, the "good" and "bad" differentiation will disappear. Your quoted article accepts that the legal drugs are dangerous too. The damage to society from criminalizing users is an avoidable damage. The existence of criminal dealers is another avoidable damage. The use of alcohol and tobacco exists legally despite the harm it causes. Nobody pretends that the other drugs aren't capable of causing more or less damage (though I'd argue for less in some instances), but that damage is minor compared to the damage brought about by the criminalization of users, and by the overwhelming temptation of obscenely high profits which attract the shippers and dealers into crime.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
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Post by K.Snyder »

koan;469544 wrote:

I work in the film industry. Let me assure you these people are not broke or even close to the side of low income. One producer was only making movies so that he could retire and live on heroin for the rest of his days. At least 80% of the grips and electrics do cocaine on a regular basis - meaning every weekend.


Cocaine is nothing compared to the other hard drugs in my opinion...

To be honest I rank it up there with Marijuana as being a drug that is relatively safe to use, however cocaine is different in that you have to make sure you don't use an extended amount of it over a short period of time. I think the pure reputation of drug dealers and that fact that they have to make their drug safe to use in order to sustain demand and a profit. Although I believe it is alot more addictive than marijuana, and would then pose a problem to those that cannot control their own actions and needs. I do have a problem with legalizing it as well, due to the fact that crack cocaine is made from cocaine, and that stuff makes people look like they bashed their freakin head in with an iron skillet, retentively.

Heroin, Crack, Methamphetamines, Ecstasy etc. etc. is killing more and more children as we speak, and to legalize them, I'm sorry, I'm against it.
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Post by koan »

ArnoldLayne;469559 wrote: Here we go again. Having a differing opinion has no value here AGAIN.

It is dismissed - as usual - as wrong information.

Koan we, thank God, all dont think the same. Our opinions differ.

Please dont devalue our opinions. It makes me want to turn away yet again. I will listen to what Di has to say, he at least has the decency to repsect other posters


There is a difference between fact and opinion.

Lord, spare me!

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
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Post by koan »

Keith W;469550 wrote: It has????

I think you have your information wrong

It is still very prevalent and they have a large gang/illegal drugs trade problem


There is a difference between reduction and elimination.

I'm going to have to phone Will Ferrell for another movie quote.
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Post by koan »

Keith W;469575 wrote: So..

Koan, Spot

Tell me... how would you feel if you saw your child lying dean on a mortuary slab, dead from abusing drugs??


so, Keith W,

Tell me...how is prohibition going to prevent that?
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